Want to talk issues? Let's go:

Disabilities
First, provide Americans with disabilities with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.
Like what? Don't disabled people already have a right to education?

Second, end discrimination and promote equal opportunity.
How does he intend to end discrimination - thought control?

Third, increase the employment rate of workers with disabilities.
Again, how does he intend to do that? Start a business and hire disabled people only? Force a quota system? And since alcoholism is now considered a disability, can I just drink myself senseless and it will count?

And fourth, support independent, community-based living for Americans with disabilities.
I think everyone supports that. This is nothing new. How does he plan on making it happen? Or is he not going to really do anything but "support" it?


Once more, Barack talks a lot and says nothing. No real plan, or even thinking about a plan, to make his dreams come true. He's just content to dream and talk about change.

Here's one of my favorites from the Poverty issue:

Create a Green Jobs Corps: Obama will create a program to directly engage disadvantaged youth in energy efficiency opportunities to strengthen their communities, while also providing them with practical skills in this important high-growth career field.

We already have a million programs to help disadvantaged youth, yet we have more gangs and crime than ever. So why should we, the taxpayers, fund another one?

From Poverty again:

Create a Living Wage: Obama will raise the minimum wage and index it to inflation to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing.
So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.

Brilliant.

Besides, as we established last time we had a thread about this, there is almost no one who supports a family and makes minimum wage. Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.

Does anyone know where I can go to find out what seats (both houses) are up this election cycle?

Does anyone know where I can go to find out what seats (both houses) are up this election cycle?


nevermind, I found it...

Second, end discrimination and promote equal opportunity.


Maybe he can appoint Rev Wright for that

Maybe he can appoint Rev Wright for that

Oh! Snap! :lol:

:whistle:

So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.



The Democratic Party: Governing by wishful thinking for over 75 years.

Second, end discrimination and promote equal opportunity.

at last, somebody wants to end affirmative action quotas:cartwheel:yahoo:

Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.



not if the cost keeps going up ............. :otter:

From Poverty again:

So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.

Brilliant.

Besides, as we established last time we had a thread about this, there is almost no one who supports a family and makes minimum wage. Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.

This reminds me of a joke we used to say about Jimmy Carter, back in high school:

"Mah name is Jimmah Cartah, and ah believe if ev'yone gave me a dollah, I'd be a millionaih. So ah propose we all get togethah in Plains Georgia - and we all give each other a dollah....

And we'll ALL be millionaihs...."

This reminds me of a joke we used to say about Jimmy Carter, back in high school:

"Mah name is Jimmah Cartah, and ah believe if ev'yone gave me a dollah, I'd be a millionaih. So ah propose we all get togethah in Plains Georgia - and we all give each other a dollah....

And we'll ALL be millionaihs...."

:lmao:

I do not think Barack Obama is a stupid person, although he tries hard to project that image. I think he knows how things work, and knows damn well that most of his issue "solutions" will not only *not* fix a problem, but will make it worse.

From Poverty again:

So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.

Brilliant.

Besides, as we established last time we had a thread about this, there is almost no one who supports a family and makes minimum wage. Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.

Tell that to a hispanic.

:lmao:

I do not think Barack Obama is a stupid person, although he tries hard to project that image. I think he knows how things work, and knows damn well that most of his issue "solutions" will not only *not* fix a problem, but will make it worse.

Minimum wage is just one of those hot button issues that typically make people look at Republicans as big ol' meanies, but there's not only no reason for it to actually do what people want it to do, there's mounds of evidence that it does the opposite - in the short term, it costs jobs, and in the long term, it accomplishes nothing.

Obama at least was smart enough to notice that a gas tax relief idea was stupid pandering, but promises to create a living minimum wage is bad economics and reeks of typical Democratic class warfare crap.

Tell that to a hispanic.

Except that a minimum wage law wouldn't affect them anyway. I assume you mean, an illegal alien and not a Hispanic.

Tell that to a hispanic.

Why?

What about the poor black farmers?

Black farmers file new suit against USDA (6/4/08) -- www.GovernmentExecutive.com (http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=40159&dcn=todaysnews)

Except that a minimum wage law wouldn't affect them anyway. I assume you mean, an illegal alien and not a Hispanic.

Nope. I know of pleanty that are here legally and work several minum wage jobs to support their family here and their family in their home counrty.

Why?

Many immigrants support a family on minimum wage.

Nope. I know of pleanty that are here legally and work several minum wage jobs to support their family here and their family in their home counrty.

Well, if they only support their family here, it sounds like they could work less minimum wage jobs from your statement. Or are you saying that a "living wage" should be enough to support many families? :confused:

Well, if they only support their family here, it sounds like they could work less minimum wage jobs from your statement. Or are you saying that a "living wage" should be enough to support many families? :confused:

No, I'm just saying that they work way harder, for way less money than most are willing to. I'm outta here, I have a graduation to go to. :howdy:

Nope. I know of pleanty that are here legally and work several minum wage jobs to support their family here and their family in their home counrty.

Then I'm not sure why you'd single out Hispanics. They're not the only people who work more than one job that pays minimally. When I did tax returns, I had tons of people handing in handfuls of W-2's.

Statistically however, vrai is correct. There's only a slim fraction of laborers who try to support their family on a minimum wage - most minimum wage earners contribute their income to the rest of the household, or are teens and elderly working part-time. In addition, most states have a minimum wage above the federal, and in practice, in order to compete for the smaller labor pool, businesses in those states typically offer much better than minimum.

There's really very little need to raise it. And it's the economic equivalent of the government telling a business they can charge no more than a certain amount for their good or services.

Then I'm not sure why you'd single out Hispanics. They're not the only people who work more than one job that pays minimally. When I did tax returns, I had tons of people handing in handfuls of W-2's.

Statistically however, vrai is correct. There's only a slim fraction of laborers who try to support their family on a minimum wage - most minimum wage earners contribute their income to the rest of the household, or are teens and elderly working part-time. In addition, most states have a minimum wage above the federal, and in practice, in order to compete for the smaller labor pool, businesses in those states typically offer much better than minimum.

There's really very little need to raise it. And it's the economic equivalent of the government telling a business they can charge no more than a certain amount for their good or services.

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

No, I'm just saying that they work way harder, for way less money than most are willing to. I'm outta here, I have a graduation to go to. :howdy:

Maybe because most aren't qualified for higher wages?

Immigrants compose an increasingly large share of the U.S. labor force and a growing share of low-wage workers. Immigrants are 11 percent of all U.S. residents, but 14 percent of all workers and 20 percent of low-wage workers.

Immigrants' hourly wages are lower on average than those for natives, and nearly half earn less than 200 percent of the minimum wage—versus one-third of native workers. (half earn less than double minimum wage - what percentage do you think earn only minimum wage?)

Immigrant workers are much more likely than natives to drop out of high school (30 versus 8 percent), and are far more likely to have less than a ninth-grade education (18 versus 1 percent).

Three-fourths of all U.S. workers with less than a ninth-grade education are immigrants.

Nearly two-thirds of low-wage immigrant workers do not speak English proficiently, and most of these workers have had little formal education.

Two of every five low-wage immigrant workers are undocumented. Labor force participation is higher among undocumented men than among men who are legal immigrants or U.S. citizens.

Hmmm, all immigrants are only 20% of the low wage workforce; half of those earn less than double the minimum wage; so that is 10% of the low wage workforce is both an immigrant and earns less than double minimum wage. Of that ratio, 2/5 are undocumented, so 6% of the total low wage workforce are immigrants and earn less than double the minimum wage.

Probably that means less than 3% of the low wage workforce is both a legal immigrant and earns close to minimum wage.

Not very compelling, Camily.

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

Facts suck, don't they?

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

:lmao:

Okey dokey.

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

Suit yourself. But you're right - it's called class warfare. Dems perpetrate it, because they gain votes by casting republicans as the bad guys, when in the long run, nobody gains anything by it.

It's a situation easily shown - minimum wage just makes people feel better. Since it was implemented back in the New Deal, it doesn't change anything except make people feel better about it.

In the short term, it costs jobs, because many businesses have a slim profit margin to begin with - increasing their payroll costs by 25% - which is what the latest increase will be - usually means that small businesses have to cut people because you can't raise your rates and prices over night.

So while Jorge got a raise - Jose went home with a box and a pink slip. Because when a business has to pay more to its employees but doesn't make any more money, someone has to go, and the rest have to make up the difference.

Because minimum wage affects businesses that hire minimum wage workers - they have to raise their rates to cover costs. So Jose gets his job back eventually, but now his paycheck buys less. In fact, it buys about what it bought BEFORE the raise.

So how does Jose compete? Job skills. You can't keep doing the same damned thing year after year and expect the government to see to it that your employer pays you more to do the same work. You improve your situation by gaining skills and education. Three fourths of all immigrant minimum wage earners have less than a ninth grade education and marginal understanding of English. Some years back, my family housed in their home and helped a whole family to learn English and gain enough skills to live comfortably on their own. They're all doing well now, and own their own business.

If Dems want to improve the lot of the poor, they'd drop the whole minimum wage thing and go for job training.

If Dems want to improve the lot of the poor, they'd drop the whole minimum wage thing and go for job training.

There are already a zillion job training programs - kids even get it in high school. For free! And there's always the military. That's the best way I can think of to learn a trade while getting paid for it, plus better benefits than the WalMart.

The problem is that kids are lazy (you should look at the Calvert Sucks thread). They want money but they don't want to work. You say, "Well, why don't you..." and they reply, "Nah, that sucks - I don't wanna do that..."

So I think that if Dems want to do something for the poor, they'll leave them alone and let them sink or swim. Because I firmly believe the vast majority of them would swim.*

*EDIT: They would swim with the help of the job training programs already in place.

Because minimum wage affects businesses that hire minimum wage workers - they have to raise their rates to cover costs.

I always find it shocking that this has to be explained to people - it should be pure common sense that anyone could deduce for themselves.

And what's even more shocking is that Barack Obama, along with the rest of the minimum wage champions, know how it works. And their voters are so dumb that they can get away with making silly proclamations on how raising the minimum wage will reduce poverty.

Facts suck, don't they?

Exactly what I was thinking. When the facts get thick, the Libs cut and run!

I always find it shocking that this has to be explained to people - it should be pure common sense that anyone could deduce for themselves.

And what's even more shocking is that Barack Obama, along with the rest of the minimum wage champions, know how it works. And their voters are so dumb that they can get away with making silly proclamations on how raising the minimum wage will reduce poverty.

And this is why the class warfare thing ticks me off - not so much because it is based on untruth - but that its perpetrators know it to be untrue. It works because for every one voter who knows it's crap, there are ten voters who don't - and you win elections with votes, not facts.

Want to talk issues? Let's go:
Disabilities
First, provide Americans with disabilities with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.
Like what? Don't disabled people already have a right to education?
Yes, they do - it's called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which is part of the Rehabilitation Act. I guess Obama hasn't heard about that. Pesky laws! Too many of them to remember!

And the Federal Law isn't the problem. It's the way the STATES implement the federal law that can be the problem. Even the way individual school districts implement the state laws which can be the problem. OR break it down even further - it can be within school districts - how individual school adminstrations and/or teachers implement the laws which can be the problem for individuals with disabilities getting the educational opportunities they need to succeed.

I've had the experience of seeing that my son gets the educational opportunities he needs in 3 states and they've all been very different.



Once more, Barack talks a lot and says nothing. No real plan, or even thinking about a plan, to make his dreams come true. He's just content to dream and talk about change.

Right! (See signature below)

From Poverty again:

So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.

Brilliant.

Besides, as we established last time we had a thread about this, there is almost no one who supports a family and makes minimum wage. Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.

Right!

Maybe he can appoint Rev Wright for that


Good one!! :buddies:

Many immigrants support a family on minimum wage.


Maybe it's because they're not educated enough for higher paying jobs. The minimum wage was not designed for people to be able to support families. It's called "minimum" for a reason.

Maybe it's because they're not educated enough for higher paying jobs. The minimum wage was not designed for people to be able to support families. It's called "minimum" for a reason.

True, which is why they come to America. Land of opportunity right? I know for a fact that they are paid less than "American" workers because they will do it for less. As soon as they get to the point of getting a raise, they are fired and the company hires a new employee and starts them at a lower wage. Seen it done over and over. They know their job well, and could move up the ladder, but why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?

True, which is why they come to America. Land of opportunity right? I know for a fact that they are paid less than "American" workers because they will do it for less. As soon as they get to the point of getting a raise, they are fired and the company hires a new employee and starts them at a lower wage. Seen it done over and over. They know their job well, and could move up the ladder, but why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?


Where have you seen this? Employers generally don't just fire and re-hire since it's expensive to do it. Plus, if workers gain more experience, then it seems like they could go on to bigger & better jobs elsewhere.

Just because a person will do a job for less than American workers, doesn't mean we should raise up the minimum wage so they can raise a family or send money out of the country.

For those who think we can tax ourselves back to prosperity...
The Laffer Curve: Past, Present, and Future (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1765.cfm)

why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?

Ah. Now we come full circle.

...this side show nonsense. What are the larger issues that the next president gets to deal with?

The job;

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.




1. OBL. Until the fatwa's against the US are ended, we still face attack.

2. Iraq. Is it on the way to becoming a pro western, successful nation? Is leaving ASAP going to make them take care of their own business and be an ally or cause them to be a mess?

2b. Afghanistan. Same questions.

3. Energy. Nuke? Domestic drilling? Wind up cars?

4. Social Security. It's still sitting there as the baby boomers start accelerating to retirement.

5. Home mortgage problem. Government intervention or not? Somewhere in between?

6. The environment.

7. Illegal immigration.

The Department of Veterans affairs can deal with their responsibilities. The ADA can probably be amended to include whatever a president wishes. Small potatoes. What about the big potatoes?

Where have you seen this? Employers generally don't just fire and re-hire since it's expensive to do it. Plus, if workers gain more experience, then it seems like they could go on to bigger & better jobs elsewhere.

Just because a person will do a job for less than American workers, doesn't mean we should raise up the minimum wage so they can raise a family or send money out of the country.

Not true. Restaurants are famous for it. It doesn't take long to train someone (they usually already know anyhow) to was dishes or do prep work. They have a chance in a small "mom and pop" place, but the big chains get an endless number of applicants. There are a few they keep and promote to supervisor, but believe me, they are still paid way less than they should be and worked like dogs. It's sad to see. Even sadder when they come to work and you hear how they got jumped riding their bike to work by a bunch of thugs. That happens very frequently and never gets reported.

Not true. Restaurants are famous for it. It doesn't take long to train someone (they usually already know anyhow) to was dishes or do prep work. They have a chance in a small "mom and pop" place, but the big chains get an endless number of applicants. There are a few they keep and promote to supervisor, but believe me, they are still paid way less than they should be and worked like dogs. It's sad to see. Even sadder when they come to work and you hear how they got jumped riding their bike to work by a bunch of thugs. That happens very frequently and never gets reported.

What is the salary range for a dishwasher?

What is the salary range for a dishwasher?

My point is, that is as far as they let them go. Kitchen worker. Not high pay.

That happens very frequently and never gets reported.

If it never gets reported, how do you know it happens?

My point is, that is as far as they let them go. Kitchen worker. Not high pay.

Who came all the way here, often illegally, for that job, that pay? Who stays here and keeps doing those jobs? Is that any of your, or my, business, past proper immigration law? As far as street crime, what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

What about you or me? Does your job suck? Are you being 'properly' paid? 'Properly' promoted?

If it never gets reported, how do you know it happens?

...Delay told her so. :killingme



Andy; That's funny.

If it never gets reported, how do you know it happens?

Because I worked with them and they would talk about it. :shrug:

Who came all the way here, often illegally, for that job, that pay? Who stays here and keeps doing those jobs? Is that any of your, or my, business, past proper immigration law? As far as street crime, what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

What about you or me? Does your job suck? Are you being 'properly' paid? 'Properly' promoted?

I'm a SAHM. No, I am not paid accordingly, yet I stay here too. :lol:
Our worst job is still better than the best in their home country.

I'm a SAHM. No, I am not paid accordingly, yet I stay here too. :lol:
Our worst job is still better than the best in their home country.

...Delay tell you that? :killingme

...Delay tell you that? :killingme

Um no, they did.

Um no, they did.

...a joke on Bru. My jokes are kinda like IED's and you just happened along at the wrong time. *booooooom*

:killingme

...a joke on Bru. My jokes are kinda like IED's and you just happened along at the wrong time. *booooooom*

:killingme

:lol:

Because I worked with them and they would talk about it. :shrug:

Great. So they were a crime victim and never reported it so the cops could catch the thugs and keep them from going after other victims.

Nice people. Glad they got their asses kicked.

Great. So they were a crime victim and never reported it so the cops could catch the thugs and keep them from going after other victims.

Nice people. Glad they got their asses kicked.Criminals rarely report other criminals.

Great. So they were a crime victim and never reported it so the cops could catch the thugs and keep them from going after other victims.

Nice people. Glad they got their asses kicked.

...a huge part of the amnesty argument; Illegals shouldn't be illegal because that keeps them from reporting illegality because that brings into play the potential for more illegality being detected than just the illegality that was perpetrated on them, ie, their own illegality.

Great. So they were a crime victim and never reported it so the cops could catch the thugs and keep them from going after other victims.

Nice people. Glad they got their asses kicked.

Yeah, because cops are going to be able to catch someone on the description. "It was dark and 4 black guys pulled over, kisked my ass, stole my money and drove away."
Are you new?
Nice of you to say you're glad they got their ass kicked. Very compassionate.
Most are scared to cause and waves here anyway. Even if they are here legally, they just take it and move on. They don't want to get involved with the law. Do you think everycrime that is committed against Americans are reported? :lmao: :lol:
Does that mean you are glad a woman gets raped if she doesn't report it?

Criminals rarely report other criminals.

Very judgemental. What makes them criminals? Being here legally from another country?

Very judgemental. No judgement made, just a statement of truth.What makes them criminals? Being here legally from another country?Well, the primary ones being discussed were not here legally. If you're here legally, you have the ability to get at least minimum wage, and to use the court systems in your protection, etc., etc. If you're not here legally, you will choose to not risk your own skin.

As far as the woman goes, that's apples and oranges, unless she's illegally a woman. However, if she is an adult, and doesn't report the rape, she's basically an accessory to the crime, for covering it up.

Being here legally from another country?

If they were here legally, why didn't they report the crime?

No judgement made, just a statement of truth.Well, the primary ones being discussed were not here legally. If you're here legally, you have the ability to get at least minimum wage, and to use the court systems in your protection, etc., etc. If you're not here legally, you will choose to not risk your own skin.

As far as the woman goes, that's apples and oranges, unless she's illegally a woman. However, if she is an adult, and doesn't report the rape, she's basically an accessory to the crime, for covering it up.

Wow.

Does that mean you are glad a woman gets raped if she doesn't report it?

Well, yeah. Duh.

If you were raped, and then found out that your attacker had raped other women and they never reported it, which resulted in him being free to attack you, how would you feel about that woman?

Well, yeah. Duh.

If you were raped, and then found out that your attacker had raped other women and they never reported it, which resulted in him being free to attack you, how would you feel about that woman?

Not glad she got raped.

Wow.

Wow back at you. It never occurred to me that there would be an adult in this country who would defend not reporting a violent crime.

Wow back at you. It never occurred to me that there would be an adult in this country who would defend not reporting a violent crime.

Not defending it, just saying that it is a bit far to call her an accessory because of it.

Wow.Wow what? If your husband was beat up, would you expect him to report it? If your home were robbed, would you report it? Car stolen, kid sliced up at the mall, grandmother pushed down a flight of stairs.....?

Why is this crime any different?

Not defending it, just saying that it is a bit far to call her an accessory because of it.
Exaggeration, however slight, to make a point.

Wow what? If your husband was beat up, would you expect him to report it? If your home were robbed, would you report it? Car stolen, kid sliced up at the mall, grandmother pushed down a flight of stairs.....?

Why is this crime any different?

Wow that you called a rape victim an accessory if she doesn't report it. A sexual crime affects a woman differently than the crimes you mentioned. I volunteered at CAP, this happens frequently.

Wow that you caled a rape victim an accessory if she doesn't report it. A sexual crime affects a woman differently than the crimes you mentioned. I volunteered at CAP, this happens frequently.Perhaps I will never understand that. I can tell you with complete certainty that if I were attacked, male or female, and raped, I would report it. If for no other reason than, as Vrai suggested, to protect others. However, the other reason for me personally off the bat would be defend my own honor - respect myself.

Perhaps I will never understand that. I can tell you with complete certainty that if I were attacked, male or female, and raped, I would report it. If for no other reason than, as Vrai suggested, to protect others. However, the other reason for me personally off the bat would be defend my own honor - respect myself.

I would as well. I agree completely. I, however, can not judge those who don't. I'm not in their shoes and it's not my place.

...a huge part of the amnesty argument; Illegals shouldn't be illegal because that keeps them from reporting illegality because that brings into play the potential for more illegality being detected than just the illegality that was perpetrated on them, ie, their own illegality.

exactly.

I cant help but wonder who these thugs are who rob them on the way to work.

Were they other illegals who roam in gangs?. Were they criminal drug users looking for a hit?

Were they racists who lay in wait for any Hispanic? Are they White? Black?

Are they the victims of crime just because they wont report the crime?

Not glad she got raped.

Let me rephrase:

I wouldn't be glad she got raped, but I would be pissed as hell at her for being partially responsible for me getting attacked.

I would as well. I agree completely. I, however, can not judge those who don't. I'm not in their shoes and it's not my place.

I will happily judge those who put the rest of us at risk, and it is indeed my place to do so.

...a huge part of the amnesty argument; Illegals shouldn't be illegal because that keeps them from reporting illegality because that brings into play the potential for more illegality being detected than just the illegality that was perpetrated on them, ie, their own illegality.

Like abusive employers, poor wages, safety violations, employers not paying taxes and insurance.

I cant help but wonder who these thugs are who rob them on the way to work.

Repeatedly, no less, because she said "they" told her, which implies more than one person.

And you have to be some kinda desperate to rob an immigrant on a bicycle. Typically those guys don't have anything to steal.

So I think Camily's lying but now she's stuck so she has to keep making up other details to support the original lie.

Let me rephrase:

I wouldn't be glad she got raped, but I would be pissed as hell at her for being partially responsible for me getting attacked.

Gotcha. That's alot more understandable.

I cant help but wonder who these thugs are who rob them on the way to work.

Were they other illegals who roam in gangs?. Were they criminal drug users looking for a hit?

Were they racists who lay in wait for any Hispanic? Are they White? Black?

Are they the victims of crime just because they wont report the crime?

Yes, usually. Black thugs. They know these guys carry cash instead of using a bank.
I don't understand the last question. :confused:
They are victims of crime because they are robbed and beaten.

My point is, that is as far as they let them go. Kitchen worker. Not high pay.

Kitchen workers are never paid well. It is unskilled labor that involves no skill at all. There is no "Kitchen worker II" to get promoted to. The salary range is very narrow and there is nothing that can be done about it. You cannot expect a dish washer to make a career out of it and be promoted 5 or 6 times and end up making $20 an hour.

Repeatedly, no less, because she said "they" told her, which implies more than one person.

And you have to be some kinda desperate to rob an immigrant on a bicycle. Typically those guys don't have anything to steal.

So I think Camily's lying but now she's stuck so she has to keep making up other details to support the original lie.

:lol: Yes they do. You would be surprised. Often they are robbed when getting their money on a money order, or whatever, to send home. This is usually a large sum.
You can think I'm lying if that makes you feel better. Sometimes it's easier than facing the truth. I won't judge you for it.

Kitchen workers are never paid well. It is unskilled labor that involves no skill at all. There is no "Kitchen worker II" to get promoted to. The salary range is very narrow and there is nothing that can be done about it. You cannot expect a dish washer to make a career out of it and be promoted 5 or 6 times and end up making $20 an hour.

Prep is higher than dishwasher, cook higher than prep. Supervisor, manager, sous chef, chef. There is room for advancement. Many chefs started out this way. Of course, that requires school though.

Like abusive employers, poor wages, safety violations, employers not paying taxes and insurance.

...the ones that 'made' them come here and 'make' them stay?

Many Americans are so profoundly lazy and intellectually ignorant of what tough conditions and hard work are anymore. That doesn't make any 'abuse' OK, it just applies a little perspective. If they got here, I think they can find their way home whenever they choose.

Wow back at you. It never occurred to me that there would be an adult in this country who would defend not reporting a violent crime.

...nice if we had a right to self defense. Then we could be pizzed at these illegals for leaving dead criminals lay all over the place and not reporting it.

Then, we could get mad at them for putting cops out of a job because we're running low on thugs. It never ends. :lol:

Not defending it, just saying that it is a bit far to call her an accessory because of it.

:yeahthat:

Seriously...I've been there. I reported and went thru hell afterwards. There were many times in that immediate aftermath I wish I had never said anything at all.

Considering most victims are attacked by someone they know that makes it even harder to prove.

Wow what? If your husband was beat up, would you expect him to report it? If your home were robbed, would you report it? Car stolen, kid sliced up at the mall, grandmother pushed down a flight of stairs.....?

Why is this crime any different?

:doh: Boy, what rock are you living under?

Would you like me to repeat all the stuff I heard thru my HS grapevine after I was raped?

No one would have dared say that crap if I had been robbed or shot at.

Some of the guys in my group of friends even had to take one smart ass out behind the skating rink for a little "talk" after bringing me to tears with harassing comments.

And I was raped by a stranger. Aquaintance rapes are notoriously hard to prove in court.

Debbie Schlussel (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/)
Great editing at the Detroit News!
:killingme

Debbie Schlussel (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/)
Great editing at the Detroit News!
:killingme

Politics makes strange bedfellows..I knew she would take the unothrodox route.

Might I add to this debate that many first generation immigrants in our history have dealt with low wages, cramped housing, being targeted for crime, and discrimination. "No Irish Need Apply" ring any bells?

The only thing that changes is what country any particular wave is immigrating from.

Might I add to this debate that many first generation immigrants in our history have dealt with low wages, cramped housing, being targeted for crime, and discrimination. "No Irish Need Apply" ring any bells?

The only thing that changes is what country any particular wave is immigrating from.

...100% accurate. Especially in the cities. There's still no excuse for unbridled immigration. All congress ever has to do is come up with agreed upon numbers per year instead of a free for all.

...100% accurate. Especially in the cities. There's still no excuse for unbridled immigration. All congress ever has to do is come up with agreed upon numbers per year instead of a free for all.

We already do have set numbers of visas that can be issued to citizens of each country every year, both immigrant and H1B. Legal immigration has been under those controls since the 1920s. We even banned new immigrants from one country (China) for a period of time.

We already do have set numbers of visas that can be issued to citizens of each country every year, both immigrant and H1B. Legal immigration has been under those controls since the 1920s. We even banned new immigrants from one country (China) for a period of time.

...but part of the reason millions flood in is because the numbers, to do it legal and proper, it took years and years. I'm all for immigration. I'm all for an organized plan that doesn't create such shocks to the economy and to the people.

:doh: Boy, what rock are you living under?

Would you like me to repeat all the stuff I heard thru my HS grapevine after I was raped?

No one would have dared say that crap if I had been robbed or shot at.

Some of the guys in my group of friends even had to take one smart ass out behind the skating rink for a little "talk" after bringing me to tears with harassing comments.

And I was raped by a stranger. Aquaintance rapes are notoriously hard to prove in court.I'm sorry for your personal tragedy and the pain it caused you. Very much so.


But, it doesn't change the fact that a crime is a crime, regardless of how stupid people act. And, not reporting the crime only makes it worse on yourself and others.

Would you like me to repeat all the stuff I heard thru my HS grapevine after I was raped?

That's awful and I'm sorry that happened to you.

But wouldn't you have felt terrible if you hadn't reported it and he raped some other woman?

That's awful and I'm sorry that happened to you.

But wouldn't you have felt terrible if you hadn't reported it and he raped some other woman?

He probably did. He was never caught. My case was handled very poorly. Many time when I was younger I wished I had not reported it at all, since all it did was cause me even more trouble.

Even with modern DNA testing (not available when I was raped) it's still a matter of her word against his unless there is other physical evidence (ie she was drugged, badly bruised, etc).

I can as an adult looking back 20 years say I did the right think and speak out about how my case was handled. But having gone thru what I did I can very well understand why someone would not report a rape.

at last, somebody wants to end affirmative action quotas:cartwheel:yahoo:

What part of "Equal Opportunity" don't you understand?


Democrats have proven themselves to be the biggest racists time and again..
Affirmative Action is proof.. "You aren't capable of succedding on your own, you aren't smart enough to get into college without help.. "

Not true. Restaurants are famous for it. It doesn't take long to train someone (they usually already know anyhow) to was dishes or do prep work. They have a chance in a small "mom and pop" place, but the big chains get an endless number of applicants. There are a few they keep and promote to supervisor, but believe me, they are still paid way less than they should be and worked like dogs. It's sad to see. Even sadder when they come to work and you hear how they got jumped riding their bike to work by a bunch of thugs. That happens very frequently and never gets reported.


Worked like dogs & paid way less than they should be? NO ONE holds a gun to their heads to do the jobs at the wages they choose to work for.

If an employer is "taking advantage" (which is not my view) of someone by not paying them high enough wages - people have the freedom of choice to go someplace else. Unless, of course, they are not qualified and/or educated to do anything else. People have recourse if they are being subjected to unfair labor practices, but of course, if they are here illegally they probably don't want to look into those.

Which brings us back to that whole illegal alien thing.

Wow back at you. It never occurred to me that there would be an adult in this country who would defend not reporting a violent crime.

Perhaps I will never understand that. I can tell you with complete certainty that if I were attacked, male or female, and raped, I would report it. If for no other reason than, as Vrai suggested, to protect others. However, the other reason for me personally off the bat would be defend my own honor - respect myself.


I'm in this boat as well. Not reporting this type of crime means that it could happen to someone else & I would want to do whatever I could to help catch and then hopefully prosecute the perpetrator.

I look at it as I would be empowered & more in control of the world around me if I was able to help someone else avoid being attacked & helping to get a criminal psycho off the street. Why should I be cowering in a corner afraid for my life and acting like a victim for the rest of my life?

:doh: Boy, what rock are you living under?

Would you like me to repeat all the stuff I heard thru my HS grapevine after I was raped?

No one would have dared say that crap if I had been robbed or shot at.

Some of the guys in my group of friends even had to take one smart ass out behind the skating rink for a little "talk" after bringing me to tears with harassing comments.

And I was raped by a stranger. Aquaintance rapes are notoriously hard to prove in court.

:huggy:

I'm sorry about what happened to you. I think sometimes people can be so darn ignorant. Good on your friends who took out the jerk!! I hope they caught the person who did this to you and he was sentenced appropriately.

But having gone thru what I did I can very well understand why someone would not report a rape.

I can understand why you might feel that way. However, violent criminals are caught and prosecuted every day. So to not report a crime is the height of social irresponsibility.

How did we get off on this tangent, anyway?