No Child Left Behind

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
I was looking for a thread because I was sure the matter was covered on here before but couldn't find one.

Neighbor lady asked me if I was going to pull DQ out of her school because it failed "NCLB" two years in a row. I said "no"; I'm not an advocate of the program. What about "No Child HELD Behind"? :shrug: That's what it amounts to in my opinion. "Normal"/non-special-ed students are held up in class while the teacher works to catch up the other students. DQ told me on several occasions this was the case last year in her class. So, why would I pull her out? Only to be put in another school where the teacher is doing the same thing? :shrug: She's not failing; she's a straight-A student.

If it's done to keep from singling out the students who are slower, how is that going to happen? I'd think there would be MORE pressure on them now (and more 'finger-pointing') because now those children ARE a 'nuisance' to the other kids by holding them up. I realize I probably sound insensitive to the slower kids, but that's not my intention. Just as they shouldn't be "left behind", mine shouldn't be "held back" ... fair is fair, right?

Is there something with this program I'm missing that I should give thought to pulling her out of the school for? I don't want to do that. She's doing great there, is in the AG program this year, and I just got word that the principal who I think would be better off reading parking meters is leaving this week (after his one-year stint on the job :duh:). If I focus on the overall test scores for the school, I might have an issue. But she aced 'em all. So in my opinion, it's showing that the program isn't working; not her, and not the teachers. To expect the teachers (who AREN'T special-ed trained) to try and cater to such a wide spectrum of students is ridiculous.

Thoughts? :confused:
 
W

White Buddah

Guest
My mother has been a special ed teacher for over 30 years now. The no child left behind is one of the stupidest thing thought of. A kid in the 6th grade reads at a 3rd grade level with a 2nd grade math level gets to do what??? You got it, move onto 7th grade. I will ask her about the finer point of the program. Maybe they have started to change some of it since being in effect.
 

greyhound

New Member
NCLB is being refered to as a program. It is not a program, it is a law. Don't get me started.....It would take me an hour to write what is flawed in this law (I would be late getting to my school).
 
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White Buddah

Guest
Didn't know it was a law. You are right, it makes even less sense now...Let's not hurt anyone's feelings by making them take different classes that would benifit the kid or damage them psychologically. :sarcasm: Instead let's allow them to get through school, learning very little, and fight for themselves later.
 

sparkyaclown

Active Member
crabcake said:
That's what it amounts to in my opinion. "Normal"/non-special-ed students are held up in class while the teacher works to catch up the other students.
Sad thing is most of the ones holding the others back are not slow / special ed students. The students are capable of learning it, they just choose to sit there and waste space. Of course the parents of these same individuals do nothing to discourage this behavior and often encourage it. This is the biggest flaw in the law, you can't force a child to learn. Unfortunately the kids that do have parents that care pay for it the most.
 

Pete

Repete
crabcake said:
I was looking for a thread because I was sure the matter was covered on here before but couldn't find one.

Neighbor lady asked me if I was going to pull DQ out of her school because it failed "NCLB" two years in a row. I said "no"; I'm not an advocate of the program. What about "No Child HELD Behind"? :shrug: That's what it amounts to in my opinion. "Normal"/non-special-ed students are held up in class while the teacher works to catch up the other students. DQ told me on several occasions this was the case last year in her class. So, why would I pull her out? Only to be put in another school where the teacher is doing the same thing? :shrug: She's not failing; she's a straight-A student.

If it's done to keep from singling out the students who are slower, how is that going to happen? I'd think there would be MORE pressure on them now (and more 'finger-pointing') because now those children ARE a 'nuisance' to the other kids by holding them up. I realize I probably sound insensitive to the slower kids, but that's not my intention. Just as they shouldn't be "left behind", mine shouldn't be "held back" ... fair is fair, right?

Is there something with this program I'm missing that I should give thought to pulling her out of the school for? I don't want to do that. She's doing great there, is in the AG program this year, and I just got word that the principal who I think would be better off reading parking meters is leaving this week (after his one-year stint on the job :duh:). If I focus on the overall test scores for the school, I might have an issue. But she aced 'em all. So in my opinion, it's showing that the program isn't working; not her, and not the teachers. To expect the teachers (who AREN'T special-ed trained) to try and cater to such a wide spectrum of students is ridiculous.

Thoughts? :confused:
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of NCLB. Here is a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind

Basically it was made law because for years mo money and mo money was being pumped into school districts that were pumping out illiterate people who couldn't count back change for a Happy Meal. There were no standards, no real measures and no way to say "Hey, WTF are you doing with this money because Johnny still can't read.

It does not have anything to do with who passes or is held back. It instructs the states to "measure" the academic progress and holds them accountable for failing to meet standards........much like every other industry, business, program, enterprise or effort in this country.
 

Woodyspda

New Member
The problem with NCLB is that we are an industrial nation and superpower. We are being overshadowed by countries like China and India who are producing more highly educated people per year than we do in two decades. They take their best and brightest and nurture them and leave the rest to fend for themselves (this isn't entirely correct as I'm trying to simplify the overall situation) Whereas we take our best and brightest and mandate that they wait while other less motivated or less smart catch up to them. They are never nurtured unless their parents are proactive and we all know that most parents do not take the time to sit with their children EVERY night to go over their lessons as they did prior to the industrial revolution.

Schools are now funded by their passing rate not their failing rate. Arts programs are shunned by senior faculty as they do not calculate in the overall process.

I'm all for special education.... I commend the teachers and aides that take on that role. It should not fall under NCLB.

NCLB punishes the system not the individual child. We live in an age where children are taught that they are not responsible for their actions or are not punished adequately when they need to be punished (subjective)

..........
 

jetmonkey

New Member
when i was in elementary school there was a blue group, a red group and a brown group; the brown group had to leave the classroom and go to another room down the hall
 

greyhound

New Member
White Buddah said:
Didn't know it was a law. You are right, it makes even less sense now...Let's not hurt anyone's feelings by making them take different classes that would benifit the kid or damage them psychologically. :sarcasm: Instead let's allow them to get through school, learning very little, and fight for themselves later.

NCLB is holding students to a higher standard. The expectations increase every year. But students learn at different levels and at different paces.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/edpicks.jhtml?src=ln
 

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
greyhound said:
NCLB is holding students to a higher standard. The expectations increase every year. But students learn at different levels and at different paces.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/edpicks.jhtml?src=ln

WRONG! It's holding teachers and schools to a higher standard .... meanwhile, as someone else stated, the kids who don't give a damn (who have parents who probably give even less a damn) don't really get any smarter or more challenged, and the kids who DO need special help in "getting it" are singled out even more because the kids who DO get it and DO want to learn and be challenged are sitting there waiting on the rest of the class.
 

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
Pete said:
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of NCLB. Here is a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind

Basically it was made law because for years mo money and mo money was being pumped into school districts that were pumping out illiterate people who couldn't count back change for a Happy Meal. There were no standards, no real measures and no way to say "Hey, WTF are you doing with this money because Johnny still can't read.

It does not have anything to do with who passes or is held back. It instructs the states to "measure" the academic progress and holds them accountable for failing to meet standards........much like every other industry, business, program, enterprise or effort in this country.


That might be the intent, but that's not what's happening, IMO. I believethat standards should be set for students, but the teachers can only do so much. At some point, the students and their parents need to accept personal responsibility for their progress. If they don't, they shouldn't be pitching a fit to the school/government/etc. to "fix" their problems. They don't want their kid "left behind"? Fine, but I don't want mine "held behind" either.
 

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
And to my anonymous Karma giver:

You mean parents who have no problem putting thier child on Rit?

I take care of my child's needs, and she's a straight A student who is thriving, intelligent, and healthy. Judging from how much red I got today in this thread, it's clear there are a few not-giving-a-damn parents on here who don't like hearing the truth about their NCLB kids. :poorbaby:
 

greyhound

New Member
crabcake said:
That might be the intent, but that's not what's happening, IMO. I believethat standards should be set for students, but the teachers can only do so much. At some point, the students and their parents need to accept personal responsibility for their progress. If they don't, they shouldn't be pitching a fit to the school/government/etc. to "fix" their problems. They don't want their kid "left behind"? Fine, but I don't want mine "held behind" either.

That's sad that it is not happening at your school. Differentiated instruction ensures that the needs of all students within a classroom are met (struggling students get intervention, Average students continue at a steady pace & above average students are challenged). This is good teaching.
 

Pete

Repete
crabcake said:
That might be the intent, but that's not what's happening, IMO. I believe that standards should be set for students, but the teachers can only do so much. At some point, the students and their parents need to accept personal responsibility for their progress. If they don't, they shouldn't be pitching a fit to the school/government/etc. to "fix" their problems. They don't want their kid "left behind"? Fine, but I don't want mine "held behind" either.
Hey, believe me I am the first person to admit that the world needs ditch diggers too and there are a bunch of people out there who will fit that occupation well. The standard tests use an "average" for the school. Statistics are statistics and it is not likely all the "challenged" kids show up at the same school year after year. If you have a school that is consistently under performing the problem is not the kids.

Funny, Boy's MSA results came today and he is reading on grade level for the first time ever. It had been a 4 year effort in which he was sent to a special class for help. The student teacher ratio was 4:1 instead of 25:1 and they finally got him up to speed. If it were back in my time he would have just been passed along year after year and never gotten extra help.

Like any government program it tries to paint with a wide brush and we know how well that works. It can't please everyone all the time but it serves the purpose.
 

greyhound

New Member
Pete said:
Hey, believe me I am the first person to admit that the world needs ditch diggers too and there are a bunch of peopl eout there who will fit that occupation well. The standard tests use an "average" for the school. Statistics are statistics and it is not likely all the "challenged" kids show up at the same school year after year. If you have a school that is consistantly under performing the problem is not the kids.

Funny, Boy's MSA results came today and he is reading on grade level for the first time ever. It had been a 4 year effort in which he was sent to a special class for help. The student teacher ratio was 4:1 instead of 25:1 and they finally got him up to speed. If it were back in my time he would have just been passed along year after year and never gotten extra help.

Like any government program it tries to paint with a wide brush and we know how well that works. It can't please everyone all the time but it serves the purpose.

:yay:
 

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
Pete said:
Hey, believe me I am the first person to admit that the world needs ditch diggers too and there are a bunch of people out there who will fit that occupation well. The standard tests use an "average" for the school. Statistics are statistics and it is not likely all the "challenged" kids show up at the same school year after year. If you have a school that is consistently under performing the problem is not the kids.

Funny, Boy's MSA results came today and he is reading on grade level for the first time ever. It had been a 4 year effort in which he was sent to a special class for help. The student teacher ratio was 4:1 instead of 25:1 and they finally got him up to speed. If it were back in my time he would have just been passed along year after year and never gotten extra help.

Like any government program it tries to paint with a wide brush and we know how well that works. It can't please everyone all the time but it serves the purpose.

It sounds like it's working for you & Boy in his school. :yay:

I just read an article that said, historically, only 1 pecent of students in our county who have the option to transfer due to poor test results, actually DO transfer. So the problem ends up staying with the school. My thinking is that the ones who should transfer are those who are "left behind" or falling behind and failing the tests, right? :confused: DQ is performing at an above grade level across the board, she's being continually challenged to do more/better, and is pulled from class to attend AG classes. So why would I want to take her from there to put her in another school where they don't/won't offer the same type of instruction.

Her school is a magnet, which I thought was supposed to cater to a certain group of children (e.g., interests/academia-wise; not race/income-wise), but it seems like 1) they've over-quota'd themselves on acceptances of the various races to keep them 'ok' in the eyes of the gov't (coincidentally, the majority of the below-grade performers are Mexicans and Blacks); and 2) because it's a magnet program, parents don't want to move the "challenged" performers to a school where they CAN get the extra help they need. It's keeping the kids who aren't performing at grade level there and setting them up for failure.

There's a conference at the school tonight that I'm going to try to make. It's actually to discuss qualities we want to see in the new principal as they embark on the replacement process for the one who leaves this week after only occupying the role one year. But I think I might go and get some information from them as to how exactly NCLB works in her school and see what their plans are for the coming school year/s as it pertains to that. I've never worried too much about NCLB because she wasn't a student being "left behind" in my opinion. But I need to better understand how it's being carried out there, and what effects this failing grade has on the school/magnet program as a whole.

I don't think kids who need extra help getting on grade-level should be tossed aside by any means. I just don't want to see those who demonstrate a sincere interest in learning and excelling in their academics be held back, either. Fair is fair. :shrug:
 

crabcake

But wait, there's more...
greyhound said:
That's sad that it is not happening at your school. Differentiated instruction ensures that the needs of all students within a classroom are met (struggling students get intervention, Average students continue at a steady pace & above average students are challenged). This is good teaching.

DQ's school has an academically-gifted (AG) program, of which she is involved in. And interestingly enough, they're starting this "inclusion" thing this year with it, in that sometimes the kids will be pulled from class to participate in AG studies, and other times, the AG studies will be brought to the classroom and it'll be like having two classes in one room going on. Now, HOW that's going to work, I have no clue! It would seem to me that it'd be distracting as hell to the entire class to have two lessons being taught at the same time, some kids not paying attention to what they should be (e.g., non-AG kids listening to the AG kids' stuff and vice-versa) but I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm continually asking DQ how things are going in her class, any problems she's having/seeing, if she's distracted, etc.

Obviously, the on-grade-level kids remain in the classroom and receive regular instruction. What I don't know is what -- if any -- specialized instruction is available/occurring for those who fall below grade level. It seems to me, there should be something for them as well. But then, isn't that pretty much what we grew up with? :shrug: You had special ed for those below-grade level; general classes; and honors/AG programs for those performing above grade level.

And if NCLB is simply to tie performance to funding, then what makes things different today from yesterday, in that you'll always have a group of kids who just don't give a damn. So where's the curve in that school grade to take into account that aspect of the school's test results? I don't want to see her school lose it's funding/magnet program due to a few kids and parents who just don't give a damn.

By all accounts, in my opinion, her school is perfect for her, and I don't see a need to move her because other students aren't performing. If she was one of the under-performers, I'd be all over the notion of moving her to another school to get what she needs.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
crabcake said:
WRONG! It's holding teachers and schools to a higher standard .... meanwhile, as someone else stated, the kids who don't give a damn (who have parents who probably give even less a damn) don't really get any smarter or more challenged, and the kids who DO need special help in "getting it" are singled out even more because the kids who DO get it and DO want to learn and be challenged are sitting there waiting on the rest of the class.
Perhaps I understand the program/law less than you do. It's been my experience that classes that have at least one child with an identified learning issue have at least one extra teacher in the class, to help that student and any other student along.

Now, unless you have one on one instruction for every student in the school system, SOMEBODY is going to be waiting on others. Each and every person learns at their own pace and level. When you're trying to teach a group of students there is going to be a fastest and slowest student in each lesson. Who the fastest is will probably vary among a few, and who the slowest is will probably vary among a different few, but it will most likely never be the same person fastest and same person slowest for every class and every lesson.

It sounds like you're suggesting that no child should be waiting for an answer to a question they didn't ask - just move along at THEIR speed, no one else's.

Personally, I think it's a good law with good intentions and overall good results. If your school implements the law poorly, it certainly makes sense to bring that to the attention of the school administration and school board.
 

Woodyspda

New Member
greyhound said:
NCLB is holding students to a higher standard. The expectations increase every year. But students learn at different levels and at different paces.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/edpicks.jhtml?src=ln

And it punishes the school system when it isn't necessarily to blame.

It makes zero sense for a gifted student to sit around and wait for an average student to catch up. It makes even less sense for the average student to wait for a mentally challenged student to catch up to them. They should all be taught at a relative pace to their capabilities. I reiterate what I said before..... parental interaction is a major factor as far as student performance goes. If you aren't willing to sit down with your child every night to at least see what they are learning, you have no right to complain when they fail or falter.

NCLB is a way for the goverment to standardize the national school system... oh wait, there is no national school system.
 
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