What are our kids learning?

I substitute teach in St. Mary's County and I want to know what you think of the discipline in our schools.  My problem is I was working in a school today (elementary)  and I had the misfortune to take students to the Behavior Modification Center (BMC) today also used for in-school-suspension(ISS).  While I was there a student who was in ISS was sleeping and the monitor told my students to make sure they didn't wake the other kid.  This seems to teach a child that if they are bad and get ISS they can sleep all day.  What do you think?

Wow,  maybe that kid was soo anoying the monitor didnt want to put up with them?  

Yeh that sucks, My kids are in elementry school and the same thing happened to my child, Also some of the stuff they are teaching them are on a 9th grade level when i was in school. My daughter is in 4th grade and having a very hard time in her classes. Also the disiplineary actions they take are outragous, one of my youngest daughters was having trouble in school and if she sneezed incorrectly they called me to pick her up because they didnt want to deal with her. How lame is that.

geekboy on 7:20 pm on Feb. 20, 2002[br]Wow,  maybe that kid was soo anoying the monitor didnt want to put up with them?  

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I can't believe that but I think the kids actions 'hitting a teacher' called for out of school suspension... probably ISS because his parents didn't want to deal with him either...

KaZamm1061 on 7:30 pm on Feb. 20, 2002[br]Yeh that sucks, My kids are in elementry school and the same thing happened to my child, Also some of the stuff they are teaching them are on a 9th grade level when i was in school. My daughter is in 4th grade and having a very hard time in her classes. Also the disiplineary actions they take are outragous, one of my youngest daughters was having trouble in school and if she sneezed incorrectly they called me to pick her up because they didnt want to deal with her. How lame is that.

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Some of the stuff these days I have problems teaching because I graduated 12 years ago  LOL!  We didn't learn it...It's ridiculous!  Kids should be able to be kids...

My kids' elementary school is an award winner for excellence in education.  Imagine my surprise when I discovered my fourth grader couldn't tell you the days of the week - or the months of the year - or how many hours were in a day - and so on.  It never occurred to us to think about it until it came up in randon dinnertime conversation.  Yet the child was getting good grades - S's and O's.  We brought this up with her teacher, who explained that she spent so much time getting them ready for MSPAP that there was no teaching of the basics going on.  And that they didn't think learning that sort of thing was important.

I think teachers are afraid to discipline kids these days because of guilt-ridden parents who only give a damn when they can wave their flag and get some poor teacher fired for doing the job the parent should have done in the first place.  (Whew!  What a mouthful!)  I feel for teachers because I know I would take one of those little brats up by the scruff of their neck and smack them silly (the parents, too).  But then the teachers become jaded and couldn't care less about the students because they're sick of dealing with the whole thing.  Can't say I blame them, but what about the kids?  We can't expect teachers to parent our children, especially when we hit them with a lawsuit if they do.

wyldanjel,
Bless you.  As a substitute teacher you deserve much credit.  I did it, then got a full time job in the school system.  The BMC was originally designed to give students a positive 'time out.'  Well, those designs have been altered to meet the needs of each school.  Some schools' BMC is off limits to certain students (that's right, we were not allowed to send certain students to BMC) because they didn't know how to behave there.  So the staff had to put up with them in the classroom.  The BMC monitor has a lot to say about whether the center is effective.  I know some who are great at their job and really care about making school better for the kids.  Others are just passing time, hoping they can sit on the computer all day without interruption.  In their defense, a para-educator (the monitor's official title) gets paid very little.  Each school seems to have different policies on the BMC, so ask if you substitute at different schools.  I understand Park Hall has a great program and from what I have heard, Carver does as well.
Good luck to you and thank you for substituting.  

Oh boy!  Get me on a rant about this!  I could go on for days and days.  I had the same experience as blondie.  My kid was in the 4th grade, got good grades, but I discovered that the boy didn't have a clue of what a vowel was.  I sat him down and we discovered a whole lot more.  Essentially he was clueless of all the basic foundations of Math and English.  

Now onto discipline.  I got called in to see the principal because my kid had thrown a pencil at another kid and it hit him in the eye with the eraser part.  The kids parents had to come pick him up and take him to the doctors to make sure there wasn't any damage.  According to the principal, the kids parents were livid and screaming wanting to know what kid did it and what was going to be done about it.   I requested the principal give them my phone number.  I felt that my son had the responsibility to apologize not only to the kid, but to his parents.  The principal declined to do so and essentially the school did nothing in the form of punishment to my kid.  Luckily for him we take that crap seriously and we punished him ourselves (which we would've also even if the school happened to).  But it's no wonder kids are monsters these days.  My kid has actually said to me that "they can't do anything to us", says his friend told him so.  It's just insane that the kids essentially rule the school and do whatever they want.

On the converse, I'll get into the schools obsession with ADHD.  I don't know how many times they suggested we get my son evaluated for ADHD, which in essence they want him stuck on Ritalin.  I refuse to stick my kid on that crap.  He has the attention span of every ten year old boy (unless of course they are doped up on Ritalin).


Needless to say, I've pulled him out of the public schools.  We've been homeschooling for about 4 months (while working full time) and I believe he's learned more in those two hours a night for four months than in all the years he's been in public school.  We're ditching the homeschooling since he's really bored during the day and wants to be back in some form of school.  So we're taking our tax return money and putting him in a private school for the rest of this year.  I will never put him back in a public school.  

I don't necessarily think that vouchers are the right solution either.  How can the public schools fix themselves when thier funds are being redirected to pay for the children that they have failed . . . while it is a good solution for those certain few lucky enough to qualify for vouchers it will hurt the average student in the long run.  Your average student whose grades are decent but is still struggling in public school and whose parents can't quite afford to send him to private school will get lost in that system when thier extracurricular programs get cut and thier music department loses funding due to vouchers.  
I believe in accountability - but not to the extent that it benefits a few and leaves the many behind.

Put me in the school vouchers "for" column.

Has anyone but me noticed that the politicians who are against school choice have children who attend private school?  Do they feel that their kids have more of a right to an education than kids whose parents can't afford tuition?  I'm no liberal but somehow it doesn't seem right to me that something as important as education is only for the wealthy among us.

I take a more consumerist stance - if the schools start losing money due to vouchers, then they'll have incentive to revamp their programs and become better schools.  As it stands, they are a bigger monopoly than Microsoft ever dreamed of being so they have no real reason to straighten themselves out.

I can't get excited about music programs and extracurriculars when half of these kids can't even read or do simple math.

Teddy Bear on 9:30 am on Feb. 21, 2002[br]wyldanjel,
Bless you.  As a substitute teacher you deserve much credit.  I did it, then got a full time job in the school system.  

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Thank you....  But seriously the school I'm talking about is one of the two you mentioned.... And this kid was sleeping and they asked us to be quiet so he wouldn't wake up!  Personally I can remember being in ISS in high school.  But I dare say if you were caught sleeping your a$$ was grass.  You were busy even if the monitor made you write your name over and over to kill time...  But this was a school where paddling is still acceptable to this day.

I understand Park Hall has a great program and from what I have heard, Carver does as well.
Good luck to you and thank you for substituting.  

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StarBuck on 12:24 pm on Feb. 21, 2002[br]And how many of you would like to see school vouchers so you could send your child to a school of your choosing??

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ME ME ME ME I WANT IT!!!!!  

vraiblonde on 1:12 pm on Feb. 21, 2002[br]Put me in the school vouchers "for" column.

Has anyone but me noticed that the politicians who are against school choice have children who attend private school?  Do they feel that their kids have more of a right to an education than kids whose parents can't afford tuition?  I'm no liberal but somehow it doesn't seem right to me that something as important as education is only for the wealthy among us.

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I guess they think we're not worthy :

I take a more consumerist stance - if the schools start losing money due to vouchers, then they'll have incentive to revamp their programs and become better schools.  As it stands, they are a bigger monopoly than Microsoft ever dreamed of being so they have no real reason to straighten themselves out.

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Ain't that the truth!  Accountability and not for state mandated tests!!!!!  I can remember when (20 years ago for me) the only tests we took were IQ tests in the 3rd grade.  Special Education kids had a room of their own and weren't mainstreamed.  Now before anyone blows up at that statement let me explain!!!  I sub in every grade pre-k through 5 and there are a couple kids who are mainstreamed who shouldn't be there!  They can't even write their own names and are mainstreamed into 2nd grade classes!  hello?  what's the problem here.  These kids are disruptive in class and should not be allowed to disrupt an entire class if they can't be kept under control.  Or kids who are in 2nd grade when I ask them to read in class flat out tell me they can't read!  hello did the schools or the parents not hear about holding a child back?  Mine would have been held back if she couldn't read.

I can't get excited about music programs and extracurriculars when half of these kids can't even read or do simple math.

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Me either.  Especially since these music progams are being held during class time while these kids should be in the classroom learning.

The problem that I see with vouchers is that they can't send EVERY kid to private school.  That would lead to overcorwding  - one of the roots of the problem with public schools - and kids would get turned away from the voucher program when the limit was reached.  Lets remember that there isn't a multitude of options for private schooling at each level here in St. Mary's like there is in DC.  So yes, while it sounds like a great idea.  Will it be when your child isn't eligable because thier grades are C's (not D's) and your income level is a meager $2,000 over the limit?  I doubt it.  Remember that when we put criteria on students (grades and family income) to determine whether the schools have failed them and whether their family can afford private school tuition, we leave wide open chasms that most of us would fall into . . .

I have to tell you, Lilly, I'm not convinced enough parents care enough to truly make a dent in public schools.  Considering it's much easier for your kid to go to whatever school is closest and not have to transport them or arrange busing, most parents will take the path of least resistance.  What vouchers <i>will</i> do is offer an alternative to the parents who <i>do</i> care.

Also if there were money in educating kids, more people would do it as a living.  If you were a teacher, fed up with the way public schools are cheating our kids, maybe you'd start a school of your own if you could make a living at it.  Americans are notorious entrepeneurs.  I believe that, if you made education a private enterprise with profits based on performance, you'd have quality schools cropping up all over the place.

We do this with colleges and universities - why not at the elementary through high school level?

Well i think the public school systems suck, If i had the money i would out my kids in a private schoool where they will learn something instead of sitting on thier butts. My daughter is in 4th grade and they are teaching them on a 9th grade level, At least when i was in school the stuff they teach these kids now was a 9th grade level. Algerbra in 4th grade?? I think not. They are not ready for that yet. They have to be taught the basics first before jumping into math like that. Thats just one example. My kid is failing along with half of her class. This shouldnt be happening.

Kaz, I'm on the other end of that little rainbow - my two older girls are in all Honors classes and I <i>still</i> don't think they're being challenged enough.  They are well-spoken and intelligent but most of their fellow Honors students are half illiterate.  Listening to some of these kids read aloud will make you pull your hair out.  My kids aren't even super-geniuses or anything like that - but they're waaay ahead of most of their classmates.  I just think that high schoolers should be able to read and write coherently.  I  mean, don't get me wrong - I like the straight A report cards but if we had the money, those girls would be in private school.  As it stands, we make it up with extracurriculars to keep them challenged.

As for our youngest, she was one of the half-illiterates I was talking about.  We work with her extensively at home after we realized the teachers didn't teach fundamentals (like reading and spelling) anymore so she's pulling excellent grades now, too.  But I still think her teacher is being too easy on her.  We know what she's capable of from working with her at home.  But at school she still turns in work with serious misspellings and errors and the teacher gives her a 100% for it.

It seems to me that school vouchers would doom themselves from the start.  Here's why I think so:  Vouchers would greatly increase the demand for private education.  Because of the temporarily fixed number of private schools, the cost would rise thereby leaving the voucher student & family in the dust.  Any economists in the crowd?  Am I on the right track?

If it is viable, I would be all for a choice in schools for the average family.  However, here's something else to consider: A good number of public schools are failing.  Instead of giving incentives to families to leave public schools, why can't we spend the money on fixing facilities, hiring better teachers, organizing extracurricular activities, etc?  (Gimme a break, I'm the daughter of a seasoned public school teacher.)  Why are we considering leaving public schools out in the cold?

Why the hell are they teaching algebra in the 4th grade?  I don't think 7th grade is a bad idea to start algebra though.  

Listening to students read out loud has nothing to do with their literacy.  I never did read that well out loud, heck I still have trouble when talking to new people.  It has more to do with someone's comfort level speaking in front of people.  

One thing they need to do is to teach kids to write.  I didn't learn to write anything even halfway decent until I got to college.  I got my a$$
kicked on my first English paper so I asked the teacher for some pointers and she gave me a brief lesson and it worked great.   In grad school I taught a sophomore engineering class and I couldn't believe there were so many in that class that were as bad as I was.  When grading their papers I tore them apart, I had many students complain and whine.  My goal wasn't to tear their papers apart but to teach them how to write (everyone in the class got atleast a B if they did all the work btw).  

Another thing that they need to stress is that you need to ask if you don't understand something, don't feel ashamed to ask a question or to participate.   I made my classes do this, some of the students hated it, but things in the real world are much worse.  

I was also very bored in public schools, did poorly in a couple classes just because the subject matter was so god awful boring.  Can anyone tell me what the hell the point to diagraming a sentance was?  

Now that I think about it there are alot of people out there with college degrees that I don't think deserve to have them.

ShellyCW sez:[br]Instead of giving incentives to families to leave public schools, why can't we spend the money on fixing facilities, hiring better teachers, organizing extracurricular activities, etc?

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Shelly, they've been doing that for years and it's just getting worse.  I give you the DC school systems as an example - one of the highest cost per student ratios in the country yet the test scores are dismal and the drop out rate is huge.  What are they spending that money on?  Couldn't tell you but it's obviously not on educating students.

To Starbuck:  yes yes yes!!!  I couldn't agree with you more.  The newspapers are full of school choice success stories - why shouldn't low income kids have a chance at a good education?  If I were a conspiracy theorist , I'd say it's because the powers that be want to keep people enslaved and prevent them from reaching their full potential.