Teaching Tolerance

jimmy

Drunkard
I've noticed that many people on this board don't seem to want tolerance or groups w/agendas "shoved down their throats" or down the throats of their children.  On the one hand, I can see where a parent who disagrees with, for example, homosexuality, would not want it taught in schools. On the other, to many, it is a legitimate life-style that is seen as fringe simply because they are shunned by the public and children aren't exposed to it as a normal way of living...
I'm curious to know what you all think on this matter as I'm not quite sure where I fall.  I want to say that tolerance is a great thing to be taught in schools but I'm having trouble thinking of a way that it can be taught w/o offending a large segment of the population....any thoughts?
 
S

ShellyCW

Guest
How would we go about teaching tolerance?  "Don't hate.  Hate is bad."  :silly:  I've noticed that most things aimed at tolerance/hate etc. are usually pretty condescending to both children and adults.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
There is a better way to teach tolerance without having some weird "I'm OK, you're OK" class.  You don't have to get specific about anything, just let students know that meanness and violence toward students and teachers, for any reason, will not be tolerated.

If you have little Jimmy-Bob whose Daddy hates everyone, all the tolerance training in the world won't change what that kid gets at home.  I think the best you really can do is have a zero tolerance policy toward mean or violent behavior in the schools and STICK WITH IT!  The name-calling that goes on in my kids' school burns my a$$.  They call each other "fag" and "whore" and all kinds of ugly things and the teachers just sit there and let them.  I called and complained and they basically told me that if they gave students detention for name-calling, they'd have a full house every day.  I say, "So what?"  Maybe if they get in trouble for it enough, they'll figure out not to do it.  Duh!

About homosexuality being taught in schools:  the only thing schools should be teaching kids is basic biology when it comes to sex.  No need to get into specifics.  How the body works will do.  The pleasure aspect of sex isn't something I want some teacher schooling my kids on.
 

Frank

Chairman of the Board
I think schools should educate - read, write, 'rithmetic. History and science. English and art. That kind of stuff.

The rest is not the province of schools - it's not the school's job to teach moral values. Schools should not be raising the kids, no matter how much people want them to. When I go for training as an adult, I expect to learn the material - period. I don't want to be preached to, or shown how to be a good adult. I have enough of that. Same goes for schools.

You want tolerance, teach the world. Schools try to do too much that isn't education.
 

BL

Member
I agree with Frank.  It is not the school’s job to teach morale values.  That should be taught at home.  If more parents did teach morale values you would not have to worry about tolerance training!
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
We were taught tolerence very simply when I was in school.  Every classroom had the "Golden Rule" posted above the chalkboard.  At least in Elementary school.  

When you get into more detailed "Tolerence Training" I feel you start overstepping some boundaries.  You start encroaching on family values and religious beliefs, that are very near and dear to a lot of folks.  It also over complicates the simplified life a child should have.  Kids don't really think to much about what kind of family another kid has, as long as the kids family is nice.  At least that's been my experience.  

I was fortunate enough to lead a pretty sheltered life while growing up when it came to this whole issue.  Sure would be nice if kids today would be afforded that same opportunity.  Heck I didn't find out that the two  guys that lived a few houses down from us when I was a kid were gay until just recently.  I always thought they were brothers!  I just assumed it my whole life and there was no one around town who said they were gay, so who'da thunk it? :)  I asked my mother whatever happened to the two brothers, and it took her a while to figure out what I was talking about, then about died laughing over the whole thing.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
I think I agree with you all that it is not a school nor a teacher's primary job to engage in anything "value-laiden" when it comes to morality.  Hence, religion not having a place in our schools.  I also think that tolerance begins in the home and, yes, if a kid comes from biggoted parents, "sensitivity training" probably won't stop that. However, I DO see the need for different views etc. to be expressed. While not wanting them to go overboard, I'm glad black history has become a part of the cirriculum. Ditto for women and other minorities. (Although I do think it should just be "history" and you just include all of it).  I'm just wondering if teaching children about the gay lifestyle and gay history is along those same lines. I'm not a big fan of sex ed either (especially when you're TEN freaking years old and it's your FATHER who's the teacher and everyone looks at YOU every time he mentions sex and people ask him about it and you realize they're talking about your MOM!!!!.....ok.....maybe that was just me).  So, if we agree that sexual practices etc. of any sort shouldn't be taught in school, what about the history/culture of it? And, again, I'm not talking elementary as I dont' think those kids are really in a position to make their own value judgements, but in SOME sort of junior-level education?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Put me down for "NO" to history and culture of sex being taught in school.  There's enough time for that in college.  I think we can say that Black History Month is different from cultural sex practices.  If you start with Sex History, then there will be African Studies, Women's Studies and all those other classes which are more appropriate in a college environment.

What does "gay lifestyle" mean, anyway?  The gays I know have pretty much the same lifestyle I do except for their sexual partners happen to be same-sex.
 

BudoPo

Member
Rather than actively teach tolerance, perhaps it'd be best to go about it the other way, and not tolerate intolerance.  Episodes of intolerance would be dealt with by detention, suspension, etc (appropriate to the incident), with explanations to the kids involved about why it was wrong to do whatever it is they did.  This would leave the parents to teach morals, and the schools to enforce a "live and let live" environment.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Jimmy,

I take it by tolerance you mean; sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own or the act of allowing something that you normally wouldn’t.  

Why would you want to do this and what would it encompass?  My gut says that this is a family issue and not one I feel should be left to the schools. Don’t get me wrong as schools could help.  Besides posting the Golden Rule in each class (excellent idea), they could cover some tools of civilizations, like rules and laws.  I also think that schools need to enforce discipline at school.  They need to have clear rules with absolute punishments for the violations.  If an infraction is also a crime (besides being against a school rule) bring in law enforcement and prosecute.  No tolerance for little Johnny or little Susie when they break the rules or laws.  Let them know there are consequences for their actions.
 

Frank

Chairman of the Board
My overseas friends see this as one of the major failings of schools in the U.S., and they are right - for some reason, we think we need to show them how to put a condom on a cucumber, but we don't care if they are functionally literate or not. And consequently, because we ae regarding schools as the testbed for all our social ideas with kids - they're missing the thing we sent them there for - an *education*.

There's far too much being taught that has nothing to do with a real education. School is not the place to teach 'culture' 'values' (and I don't mean morality) and social engineering. People want to do it, because the kids are THERE. That's wrong. We don't send kids to school to be taught how to be polite.

What would help - is if society at large cooperated with providing highly visible heroes for kids. Who are the kid's heroes today? Is it any wonder why some of them are messed up?
 

James D

Member
I agree with Frank, school should be where students are taught to think logically, read, and history, not to be treated as a social experiment.

By the way, some intolorance is a good thing. We should teach students that the US is the greatest country in the world, and the greatest country the world has seen. While we are not perfect, we are much better than anyone else.

We should not "understand and appreciate our differences" when the differences are other countries are bent on destruction and killing of innocent.

We should not condone one child per family, and call it 'social control'.

Striving to be better is what made the US great, we should not embarass our families by now 'understanding and accepting' and not be willing to move the bar forward for the next generation.
 

EL1

Member
James D-

What you said is all good and well, but does that mean that we should allow kids that are different to be allowed to be treated unfairly or called names? I agree that we should not be tolerating intolerance. Punish kids that are treating kids crapily, etc. This is what the schools should already be doing. If not, we need to make them.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Well, I'm not gonna get into the "we're better than everyone so we don't need to be tolerant" of them arguement...that comes from a misunderstanding of what the word "tolerance" means.

I'm agreeing with most of you in that the school may not be the place to teach children values, while sacrificing literacy, math competency, comprehension, logical reasoning etc...too much focus on political correctness would greatly weaken our system. (and may already be doing so).

However, when I was talking about teaching of the "culture" of gays, I'm not talking about teaching the culture and practice of sexuality; I'm talking about perhaps including some Gay history or Gay men and women who are historically important...I can't even think of one that's not a member of current popular culture and that, I think, is the problem. Surely there have been achievements by gays throughout history but I never learned about them. I know black authors, female scientists, hispanic kings, and even the names of a few 'first family dogs" but I draw a blank on Gays' role in history.

My point is not to teach children ABOUT being gay (there's an article on foxnews.com about a school board in CA trying to show young kids a story about a young transexual boy who gets a pretty new dress...I'm thinking that that's NOT appropriate at this point). However I believe that tolerance can be taught, per se, by NOT accepting intolerance. All tolerance is is the idea that something is acceptable, whether it differs from your own lifestyle or not. It's a far cry from endorsement or embrace; merely getting kids NOT to be afraid or condemning of people for their differences. Is that idea ok to teach?
 

BL

Member
Originally posted by jimmy

I'm talking about perhaps including some Gay history or Gay men and women who are historically important...I can't even think of one that's not a member of current popular culture and that, I think, is the problem.

Jimmy,

Using gays as your example how would you want the schools to structure the course would it be gay day, week, month or something like that?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
What's the big deal?

Jimmy, there are TONS of historically important gays - many of the Greek philosophers were gay, as were several important composers and artists (Tchiakovsky and Michaelangelo, to name two). We learned this in school, not because it matters but just as an aside into that person's life. And I graduated high school in '81 - so certainly this stuff is referenced these days.

I don't like to see people defined by their sex life. If you're doing it with farm animals, okay - we can safely say you're out there a bit. But homosexuality is almost commonplace in today's society. By being so touchy-feely about gays, all we're doing is setting them apart and pointing out their differences.

We're such a sex-crazy nation and so repressed that we have to make a big deal about everything. Did you know that Joan of Arc was a lesbian? How about Florence Nightengale?
 

jimmy

Drunkard
No, BL I'm not really a huge fan of the "week" appreciation theme. I think it should just be integrated and included as History. True, the contributions of women and minorities have been overlooked in history books until recent years. But, as I think Frank mentioned, neglecting to read Hemingway or Dickens or Shakespeare in favor of Willa Cather is not my idea of sound education. Great books should be read for their content and quality, not necessarily due to the person behind the writing. Some periods, like the Harlem Renaissance, I DO believe deserve recognition simply because they are indicative of cultrual movements that this country went through. But I don't think dividing up history into black, white, gay, straight, man, woman etc... is the way to go. Take a subject. Take "advances in modern engineering". Then, show the most important advances and mention "by the way, this was unique at the time for a black/gay man/woman etc.. to have contributed this" or something along those lines. Just incorporate diversity into the cirriculum without necessarily singling it out by using a month or week or section of the cirriculum.. I'm not sure this can be done right away. And like I said, in the instance of Gays, I don't really konw what kinds of stuff they would talk about. But I'm sure that they have HAD to have some impact on various aspects of history and culture for reasons other than being gay. So what I'm suggesting is making a concious effort merely to ensure that the whole story is being told rather than being divided into sections or, worse yet, having sections ommitted.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
See, Vrai? Aside from the greeks and an educated guess about Joan of Arc, I DIDN'T know those things you talked about. Now, it could be becaues through the past 6 years of drinking like a college kid, I killed the brain cell w/that info on it. But I am not sure if I was ever told anything about the sexuality of these people even as an aside. But mostly I agree with your approach that it SHOULD be an aside and as long as there aren't people w/significant accomplishments that are being ignored because of their lifestyle/race/gender etc. then I'm fine with it. And I hope that your statemetn about homosexuality being commonplace is true but I think that it's not really that accurate as people are still afraid to come out to their friends and classmates etc. If it was so common place, I dont' think my brother would have waited until the night before I graduated college to tell me after he knew for years.
My point is, that while we have made advances in acceptance, and certainly political correctness can work against that cause by accentuating the difference too much, I think still work needs to be done in the area of tolerance and I was just wondering if some moves could be made in the school. It doesn't look like, aside from punnishing hateful words/actions, it can be done there.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Just being nosy

Jimmy, you've mentioned that your brother isn't "out" - I'm just curious why not. Is it a family thing or work or something? If I'm being too nosy, just say so - I won't be offended.

I'm learning that I'm not the norm when it comes to gays and such - we have gay friends and family members and it's just not an issue. My kids aren't freaked out about it because we've always been matter-of-fact about it if/when it comes up. My brother-in-law just got out of a long-term relationship and it was like a divorce in the family - we sorely missed him (the beau) at Thanksgiving and Christmas. I lost my drinking buddy, the kids lost their fun Uncle Tico - it was a big change.
 

BL

Member
Jetmonkey makes a good point. Why would it be important to emphasize whether a person is straight, gay, black, white, or whatever. It seems irrelevant to me.
 
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