Speak the truth...

free bird said:

I guess this question is directed to those who attend church on a regular basis.

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2 Timothy 3:1-7
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

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free bird said:

Thank you for your honesty. I too beleive the leading of the Holy Spirit and Christ being the Head of the church is the true intentions of how we are to gather together.
I commend you for taken the time to read about the history of how the church institution has evolved. You speak here mainly of how the service is conducted at the church inwhich you attend, what of the other aspects? How does this body of believers make use of the blessings the Lord brings to its members?

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2ndAmendment said:

We pray for and over each other with laying on of hands. We have people that had strokes that were told by doctors that they would never recover that have full function. We have had people cured of cancer miraculously. The most recent case was the day of the scheduled surgery. Final set of x-rays before the operation showed no sign of the previous lesions. There are gifts of the Holy Spirit used; tongues, translation of tongues, prophesy, and others. Plain and simply lives are changed. Drunks stop drinking; drug addicts stop taking drugs. Wife beaters love instead of beat their wives and come to church with them. Divorces are stopped in mid litigation and husband, wife, and kids come to church together. That is how the Holy Spirit affects people. Those kind of things are the evidence of God's presence.

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2ndAmendment said:

We pray for and over each other with laying on of hands. We have people that had strokes that were told by doctors that they would never recover that have full function. We have had people cured of cancer miraculously. The most recent case was the day of the scheduled surgery. Final set of x-rays before the operation showed no sign of the previous lesions. There are gifts of the Holy Spirit used; tongues, translation of tongues, prophesy, and others. Plain and simply lives are changed. Drunks stop drinking; drug addicts stop taking drugs. Wife beaters love instead of beat their wives and come to church with them. Divorces are stopped in mid litigation and husband, wife, and kids come to church together. That is how the Holy Spirit affects people. Those kind of things are the evidence of God's presence.

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2ndAmendment said:

I left a traditional denomination because I became convicted by:

The power is in the Holy Spirit and most traditional denominations deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit thereby denying the power of God. I now attend a pentecostal church which is rather free form. There is no set time when the service will end; there is no clock in the sanctuary. The service usually runs 1 1/2 to 2 hours. There is about an hour of song, prayer, and praise followed by the sermon. But the service is Holy Spirit directed. If the Holy Spirit is working through prayer and praise, then the pastor may not even give a message and just let people pray for each other. Other mornings, our pastor has had a prepared message but said the Holy Spirit had something else and he just discarded his prepared message and spoke from his heart. As I read the Bible and accounts of the early Church before the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and perverted the true nature of Christianity, the Holy Spirit led gathering is the way it was in the Church for the first 400 years or so.

I like the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit led service.

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AMP said:

So it's not a CHristian church, but rather a church moved by the Holy Spirit. Do you look to Rome at all? Thank heaven Catholics no longer openly persecute (as in kill, maim, etc., not boycott films) heretics! I would like to attend a church like that, someday perhaps...

St Paul was full of shizit. The more I read the more I wonder about Mother Church. Why does it hate women so much?

Anyway, I used to attend Catholic Mass down at St Mary's Bryantown, lovely church, so peaceful, until the mummery starts. I enjoyed the sermons given by the deacons and one of the priests, but the chanting and 1st and second collections kind of wore me down. So did the berating of those who came to church to be better and give more. Um, hello? We are HERE, go find the unwashed who slept in and yell at them.

I don't go anymore, but have never gone to anohter denomination. Can't bring myself to yet. Is that twisted Catholic guilt coming through or what?

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AMP said:

This sounds like Christianity in the first several centuries. Only it was referred to as gnostiscism (from the Greek "to know"). The Gnostics claimed to know or feel the Holy Spirit (Yahweh, God, Jehovah) just as Jesus did. Then the Church really began to organize itself, knowledge was power, so It took that knowledge away from the masses and subverted the Gnostics and their writings.

Just my two cents on your church.

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dems4me said:

Do you speak in tongues:shrug: ... I was told that the only edification of a christian of receiving the holy spirit was you all speak in tongues according to Pentacostal belief? It's the only edification :shrug:

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1 Corinthians 14:1-25


Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[1] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[2] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[3] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[4] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[5] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[6] says the Lord.
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[7] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[8] comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

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1 Corinthians 12


Spiritual Gifts

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[3] one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[4] ? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[5] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

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Acts 2:14-21
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[3]

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2ndAmendment said:

It is most deffinately a Christian church.

The body of believers was hurt by becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire. That is when many of the beliefs that are strictly Catholic were started. The disciples and the early Christians did not pray to Mary or to the saints or have statues or many of the things that the Catholic church has.

Anyone who is a true Christian is a saint according to the Bible; it has to do with having a personal relationship with Jesus, not being perfect.

Many women don't like Paul for one specific part. They don't like the idea of submitting to men, but if that idea is read in context, the responsibility laid on the man is awesome. The man is supposed to love and cherish the woman like Jesus does the church.

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AMP said:

I know all about the saints and Mary; none of that was ever meant to be. But in the Church's trend of ridicule, absorb, or destroy, it did take some pagan rites/rituals, some of which had to do with statues, and made them part of Roman Catholicism. Viola! More followers.

You are a good person to ask this, since you have such teriffic knowledge of the Bible (or the New Testament). How many times does Paul say "I am telling the truth; I do not lie." in his letters? And do we find those declaratory statements in the Gospels? Paul wrote what he did many years after Christ was dead. He never met the Man, did he? Paul was not the persecuter of women, Peter was, and so was the later Roman Catholic church. But how much of what Paul wrote was made up? And why? That is why I need to really read his letters, and why I'm not sure I like him anymore.

I realize that the way I wrote my sentence earlier made you think that Paul was not liked by me because I am a woman. I meant the Church did not like women. Jesus loved and cherished Mary, and Peter (who Catholics beleive to be The Rock) didn't like it. But yes, if we take Paul at his words, then he does have some merit.

You have wonderful gifts - intimate knowledge of the bible is one of them. I learn from reading your posts.

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2ndAmendment said:

I used the NIV to research your question. Paul did not use the exact phrase "I am telling the truth; I do not lie." The closest is "I am telling the truth, I am not lying" in I Timothy 2:7 and "I speak the truth in Christ–I am not lying" in Romans 9:1. The results could differ possibly using other versions, but not substantially. Paul uses words translated to "truth" 42 times in what are known as the Pauline Epistles. Yes, we do find similar statements in the Gospels in John 8:45, John 8:46, John 18:37, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:47, Luke 12:44, John 6:47, John 8:51, John 16:7, John 16:23, the list goes on. Most of these were quotes of Jesus speaking.

I do not see where the Christian Church (body of believers) did not like women. Do you mean the Catholic church? Do you have examples?

I thank you for your comment on my gifts, but they are not mine; they are given to me. All good that I exhibit is from God. I am but an evil sinner, base in every way. I am so thankful to God for coming as the Son of man to be the sacrifice for me and for all mankind. I have come to realize He loves us so. It is too bad so many reject Him these days. The rejection will grow. Christians will be persecuted to death again like we were in the early days of the Church.

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