Women Serving in Combat in Iraq

We currently have women in IRAQ doing their part, and they are doing a fantastic job. I strongly support their contributions. My opinion based on the survey, is that women should not be intentionally part of direct combat actions, but I do not have a problem with women perfroming their duties in a combat area in support of their comrades who are serving in Combat. Individually, women as foot soldiers probably are, if not more, effective in performing their duties than most men, but until a study shows that a platoon of women (Army or Marines) can perform at or above the combat level of a platoon of men, then women should not serve directly in combat.

What survey?! Where?!

And it's a great thing that you don't have a problem with women in combat, because even if their MOS is not "combat certified" odds are they are serving in combat / hostile situations.

Who do you think the majority of medics are?

Who do you think the majority of the quartermaster delivery personnel are?

Who do you think the majority of mechanics and support personnel are?

Yep, women. And were do you think their job takes them? That's right - straight to the combat line.

Have you ever served in a combat situation?

"Women should not serve directly in combat" - yea - whatever - they do. get off your high horse and look reality in the face.

I know I'm kinda old-fashioned in my beliefs on this, and I won't tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their life, but I know for 100% certain that I cannot do the same things as a man. I'm not as strong, I don't have the physical endurance, and I wouldn't want to be on the front line of a battlefield. I knew when I joined the military that there was a chance that I could lose my life in service to my country, and that was a chance I willingly and proudly took. I don't doubt that I would have killed an enemy who pointed a gun at me or one of my brothers or sisters in service, but it's a position I'm glad I wasn't placed in.

The whole "gender equality" thing, IMO, needs a dose of common sense applied to it. Woman are not created equally as men in every way. Yea, we can be CEO's, doctors, lawyers, etc. There are some women who have more physical cababilities than some men out there, but I know I'm not one of 'em.

cwmartin59 said:

We currently have women in IRAQ doing their part, and they are doing a fantastic job. I strongly support their contributions. My opinion based on the survey, is that women should not be intentionally part of direct combat actions, but I do not have a problem with women perfroming their duties in a combat area in support of their comrades who are serving in Combat. Individually, women as foot soldiers probably are, if not more, effective in performing their duties than most men, but until a study shows that a platoon of women (Army or Marines) can perform at or above the combat level of a platoon of men, then women should not serve directly in combat.

Click to expand...

Women supposedly make better snipers and sharpshooters than men.

crabcake said:

I know I'm kinda old-fashioned in my beliefs on this, and I won't tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their life, but I know for 100% certain that I cannot do the same things as a man. I'm not as strong, I don't have the physical endurance, and I wouldn't want to be on the front line of a battlefield. I knew when I joined the military that there was a chance that I could lose my life in service to my country, and that was a chance I willingly and proudly took. I don't doubt that I would have killed an enemy who pointed a gun at me or one of my brothers or sisters in service, but it's a position I'm glad I wasn't placed in.
The whole "gender equality" thing, IMO, needs a dose of common sense applied to it. Woman are not created equally as men in every way. Yea, we can be CEO's, doctors, lawyers, etc. There are some women who have more physical cababilities than some men out there, but I know I'm not one of 'em.

Click to expand...

If I have to go hand to hand combat, I want my buddy to be just as strong (or stronger) than our opponents. Women surely have their place in combat but not on the front lines in a hand to hand situation (unless she can kick my ass, then I say bring her on)

sleuth said:

Women supposedly make better snipers and sharpshooters than men.

Click to expand...

Because women are more patient than men - they'll wait for it.

Remember the movie GI Jane where the Senator says that America isn't ready for their women to come home in body bags? That is exactly correct and the main reason why women don't serve in what we think of as a combat capacity. We, as a society, are used to our menfolk doing the dirty work and our women working as a support for that. Both are equally important and both are equally necessary so there shouldn't be a problem except that WOMEN are the ones making the problem.

If a woman wants to tote a gun and can physically do the work, more power to her. Otherwise, shut up about it. Don't dumb down the requirements so some whiney-ass woman can play with the boys and feel all "equal". And don't bawl that it's not fair, because it's completely fair: if you can do the job, you're in; if you can't you're not. Completely fair.

cwmartin59 said:

women should not serve directly in combat.

Click to expand...

When you're fighting a guerrilla type af action, such as the current situation in Iraq, there often isn't much difference differ between a "Front Line" and a "Rear support area".
Everybody in the sandbox is on the front line 24/7.

Mikeinsmd said:

If I have to go hand to hand combat, I want my buddy to be just as strong (or stronger) than our opponents. Women surely have their place in combat but not on the front lines in a hand to hand situation (unless she can kick my ass, then I say bring her on)

Click to expand...

And I'll remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, making cookies for ya when you get home.






okay, that's a stretch for me ... I'll just throw the ready-made cookies in the oven and warm 'em up.

vraiblonde said:

Remember the movie GI Jane where the Senator says that America isn't ready for their women to come home in body bags? That is exactly correct and the main reason why women don't serve in what we think of as a combat capacity. We, as a society, are used to our menfolk doing the dirty work and our women working as a support for that. Both are equally important and both are equally necessary so there shouldn't be a problem except that WOMEN are the ones making the problem.

If a woman wants to tote a gun and can physically do the work, more power to her. Otherwise, shut up about it. Don't dumb down the requirements so some whiney-ass woman can play with the boys and feel all "equal". And don't bawl that it's not fair, because it's completely fair: if you can do the job, you're in; if you can't you're not. Completely fair.

Click to expand...

Thanks for saying what I meant but couldn't word as eloquently as you.

aps45819 said:

When you're fighting a guerrilla type af action, such as the current situation in Iraq, there often isn't much difference differ between a "Front Line" and a "Rear support area".
Everybody in the sandbox is on the front line 24/7.

Click to expand...

Damn straight.

crabcake said:

And I'll remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, making cookies for ya when you get home.
okay, that's a stretch for me ... I'll just throw the ready-made cookies in the oven and warm 'em up.

Click to expand...

You sooooo sweet!! Can I have white chocolate chip macademia??



....and ferget the barefoot/preggy stuff. Mikey not doin kiddies!! I'll just hang with DQ!!

Mikeinsmd said:

....and ferget the barefoot/preggy stuff. Mikey not doin kiddies!! I'll just hang with DQ!!

Click to expand...

You just love the fact that she's a Smoke fan, too, dontcha? I told her about her driver's on-track antics at Dover (there was a lot more rubbing by him than ya'll saw on tv!) and she was cracking up over that!

crabcake said:

You just love the fact that she's a Smoke fan, too, dontcha? I told her about her driver's on-track antics at Dover (there was a lot more rubbing by him than ya'll saw on tv!) and she was cracking up over that!

Click to expand...

She's so cute!! I think it's soooo cool that a lil kid like her gets into racin & even has her fav. driver (not to mention her superb choice of drivers)

Mikeinsmd said:

Mikey not doin kiddies!!

Click to expand...

thought he was on trial for that

aps45819 said:

thought he was on trial for that

Click to expand...

cwmartin59 said:

We currently have women in IRAQ doing their part, and they are doing a fantastic job. I strongly support their contributions. My opinion based on the survey, is that women should not be intentionally part of direct combat actions, but I do not have a problem with women perfroming their duties in a combat area in support of their comrades who are serving in Combat. Individually, women as foot soldiers probably are, if not more, effective in performing their duties than most men, but until a study shows that a platoon of women (Army or Marines) can perform at or above the combat level of a platoon of men, then women should not serve directly in combat.

Click to expand...

Remember the movie GI Jane where the Senator says that America isn't ready for their women to come home in body bags?

All I can say is, my time in the Army I had ONE opportunity to train with women. It was December in Indianapolis.. and they did great in class, but once we put the ruck sacks on and went to the field I've never heard so much shining in my life. My FEET hurt,.. I'm COLD.. Where's the Water?? Where's the bathroom?? Granted out of the 20 females we had two that were hardchargers and sucked it up, and kept up.. they laid in the snow whith us.. and if I could have 30 women like those two HELL yes, send me to combat with them.. the others?? not a chance in hell..

They provided warm up trucks for frostbite prevention and within 10 minutes of being outside the trucks were full of 15 of the 20 women.. NO men.. They whined SOOO much about their feet hurting, and they had NO idea what it truly meant to be cold..

cwmartin59 said:

Individually, women as foot soldiers probably are, if not more, effective in performing their duties than most men, but until a study shows that a platoon of women (Army or Marines) can perform at or above the combat level of a platoon of men, then women should not serve directly in combat.

Click to expand...

I'd like to know where you got that information.

Wow!!! I can't remember an SOMD string that had so much bogus information in it! I'm genuinely impressed!

Item 1: That women are more capable in combat in Iraq than men. I don't know where this tidbit came from, but it's obviously not from anyone who's been following the fighting in Iraq. This argument could be made if the combat was being done at range, but the ROE in Iraq calls for our forces to close and verify their targets, which means close-in fighting. In these types of engagements, the odds of survival are based on the ability to fight and maneuver in close spaces, something that a physically weaker woman is going to lose out on to a stronger male... which by the way is who we're fighting over there.

Item 2: That America is not ready for women in body bags. In case you haven't noticed there have been quite a few women coming home in body bags, including a couple of very high-profile ones. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't detect much of a hue and cry coming from America over this, in fact I didn't really see where Americans viewed these kids coming home any differently than they did their male counterparts. There have also been numerous cases in the media of stories about how women are having to leave their kids behind, and I haven't heard much outrage or sympathy in that regard either.

Item 3: That women make better sharpshooters/snipers than men. This is a 100% BS legend that comes from a couple of sources. First was that child behaviorists pushed a theory in the 1970s that boys learned bad shooting habits by playing with gun toys, that girls didn't pick up by playing with dolls. This had more to do with saying gun toys were bad than that girls were better shooters. Another part of the myth stems from the use of women as snipers by Soviet and Israeli forces, but that wasn't because of their abilities, it was because they couldn't be expected to traverse distances with loads like men could, but they were able to sit somewhere with a rifle. It wasn't ability, it was necessity. One need not look any further than co-ed shooting matches anywhere in the country to see that men thoroughly dominate the shooting competitions. That's not to say that a woman can't shoot as well as a man, given the same level of practice and experience, but she doesn't posess some physiological/psychological ability to shoot better.

I think that women should have as much risk at death in combat as men. My only concern, based on personal experience, is that in that situation men become overly protective of women for both patriarchal and sexual reasons, and that can lead to bad decisions during combat.

I agree that, on average, women are physically weaker then men, and this would be a disadvantage in close physical combat. But this argument is totally negated by the fact that the military will throw any old male into physically challenging positions without a thought.

I saw guys, when in the navy, who didn’t even have the strength to open and close the valves that were part of their watch station. But the navy had no problem assigning them to that rating and keeping them in it for the length of their service.

The military is more then willing to take men who are in poor physical shape or physically below average and who can barely pass a prt. As such, there are more then enough women in good physical shape that can do the job just as good or better.