Karma.....

Ok so who here believes in karma....reincarnation?
I was readin abook that went into reincarnation of souls....for instance....when a child is born with a disability or disfigurement, it is because the universe is working out a karmatic debt....like that sould had done something in a past life that he/she had to pay for.
(c'mon Jenn, help me out here....)
What do you all think? When we die, do we go to a heaven...do we just wink out...do we come back in another body.....or do we roam the earth as a spirit? And since more than 1 of these are plausible possibilities, are we given a choice as to which we want to do?

The Law of Karma

In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.)
Therefore, the law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them.

Let's take an example of a sequence of events. An unpleasant sensation occurs. A thought arises that the source of the unpleasantness was a person. (This thought is a delusion; any decisions based upon it will therefore be unskillful.) A thought arises that some past sensations of unpleasantness issued from this same person. (This thought is a further delusion.) This is followed by a willful decision to speak words that will produce an unpleasant sensation in that which is perceived as a person. (This decision is an act of hostility. Of all the events described so far, only this is called a karma.) Words are carefully chosen in the hopes that when heard they will cause pain. The words are pronounced aloud. (This is the execution of the decision to be hostile. It may also be classed as a kind of karma, although technically it is an after-karma.) There is a visual sensation of a furrowed brow and downturned mouth. The thought arises that the other person's face is frowning. The thought arises that the other person's feelings were hurt. There is a fleeting joyful feeling of success in knowing that one has scored a damaging verbal blow. Eventually (perhaps much later) there is an unpleasant sensation of regret, perhaps taking the form of a sensation of fear that the perceived enemy may retaliate, or perhaps taking the form of remorse on having acted impetuously, like an immature child, and hping that no one will remember this childish action. (This regret or fear is the unpleasant ripening of the karma, the unskillful decision to inflict pain through words.)

If there are no persons at all, then there is no self and no other. There is no distinction between pain of which there is direct sensual awareness (which is conventionally called one's own pain) and pain that is known through inference (conventionally called another person's pain). Whether pain is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to quell it or an urge to cultivate it. Whether joy is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to nourish it or to quell it. In the conventional language of speaking of events personally, the urge to quell all pain and to nourish all joy is known as being ethical or skillful or (if you like) good. The urge to nourish pain and quell joy is known as being unskillful, unethical or bad.

Being fully ethical is said to be impossible for those who make a distinction between self and other and show preference for the perceived self over the perceived other, for such perceptions inhibit being fully responsive. Being fully ethical is possible only for those who realize that all persons are empty, that is, devoid of personhood.

This thinking is just too deep for a Saturday.

Originally posted by Betty_Elms
Ok so who here believes in karma....reincarnation?

What do you all think? When we die, do we go to a heaven?

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Yes, that is what I believe. I am a Christian, and I believe what is said in the Bible to be true: If you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, believe that He died on the Cross for our sins, that he infact was buried, and that in three days He was risen and ascended into Heaven.
Those are the beliefs that will allow you to go to Heaven after your time on this earth is done, the way I see it.
It's not that I am "putting down" another religious belief, it's just that I don't suscribe to it. Why do I believe the way I do? Reading the Bible helps, but I also think taking classes,
and paticipating in discussion with other Christians strengthens your views. I attended a 34 week course at my church called "Disciple"; we went through every book in the Bible, right from Genesis to Revelations(which is scary indeed).
One of the first things we were tasked to do was make a choice: Was the Bible a factual work, or was it fiction? I believe it is fact. I think that is borne out through Prophesy. I don't want to list all the foretold prophesies here, this board has an updated Bible on the homepage. All one has to do is read the four Gospels, and then into Acts and Romans; it will define where in the Old Testament, people were writing of things that would take place when Jesus came into the world. How it was foretold hundreds, if not thousands of years earlier. Written by various different people, saying it would happen just this way. For me, there are too many incidents that came to pass for them to be labeled "coincidences".
The experiences of the Apostle Paul gives me further conviction: How could a man so opposed to the Word, who had the consent of the prevailing religious powers, ie., the Sanhedrens, Pharisees and Sadducees, to go out into the world and persecute the Believers, have such a dramatic turnaround?He was visited by the Lord on the way to Damascas and was changed. We all, well Christians, anyway, know what he proceeded to do next. JHMO

penn

Karma basically says that your actions now influence how things happen in the future. As such, karma doesn't really mean that reincarnation exists. If reincarnation exists, then karma says that how you lived your previous lives influences the kind of life you're born into in your present life.

Personally, I'm positive there's an afterlife. I've been doing healing work for many years on both living people and those who've passed on, and have built enough of an experience base to be confident of an afterlife. I'm fairly confident about reincarnation, too, but don't have much experience to go on.

My religion (Judaism) deals more with how you live than what happens afterwards, and there's really no "official" Jewish view. There are many individual opinions about it, with nearly all believing in an afterlife, but some believe in reincarnation while others don't. Karma does come into play, in that what happens after we pass on depends on how we live.

So, Does it follow. . . . .

Originally posted by BudoPo
My religion (Judaism) deals more with how you live than what happens afterwards, and there's really no "official" Jewish view. There are many individual opinions about it, with nearly all believing in an afterlife, but some believe in reincarnation while others don't. Karma does come into play, in that what happens after we pass on depends on how we live.

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Can we agree that Christianity was/is an offshoot of Judaism? As such, the Torah, or Law, the first five books of the Bible are cornerstones to both religions?
What Christianity furthers is that merely performing "good deeds" and "clean living" is not enough to allow one to experience an "afterlife", so to speak. You have to have faith in the Lord; who He was, what He did for us, and that He went to a place to prepare for us to join Him in.

penn

I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that when you're dead, that's it and you must make your heaven or hell right now while you still can.

I definitely believe that what comes around, goes around. And I don't think anyone can deny that the smallest incident can set off a chain reaction that could have global consequences. Everything starts small.

Re: So, Does it follow. . . . .

Originally posted by penncam
Can we agree that Christianity was/is an offshoot of Judaism? As such, the Torah, or Law, the first five books of the Bible are cornerstones to both religions?

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I agree. Christianity started out as a type of offshoot of Judaism, and developed as its own religion pretty early. Both religions share what's referred to as the Old Testament, but the two religions have fairly significant differences now (more than just believing or not believing in Jesus).

So, Does it follow. . . . .

Originally posted by BudoPo
Both religions share what's referred to as the Old Testament, but the two religions have fairly significant differences now (more than just believing or not believing in Jesus).

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Ok, moving along. Clear something up for me if you would: We've agreed that the first five books of the Bible are the cornerstones to both faiths. If, as you say Judaism shares with Christianity what is refered to as the Old Testament, do you mean to say ALL the books, right up to the New Testament?
Here's where I am a little at a loss to understand the point that Judaism does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah or Savior. There was ample prophesy in the Old Testament that foretold the coming of the Messiah in several of those books;
Isaiah, Daniel, The Psalms to name some of them. They foretold from which family line He would be descended from, where and under what circumstances He would be born.
Others would lay prophesies as to which town He would emerge from, Nazareth, and the fact that He would not be accepted by His own. There are many more; those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head.
As I alluded to in my first post, you either believe in the Bible as fact, or you don't. It shapes your thinking in the whole concept of things. Maybe, I'm trying to make it too simple!
So, I ask you; What's not to believe?

Penn

Originally posted by BudoPo I've been doing healing work for many years on both living people and those who've passed on, and have built enough of an experience base to be confident of an afterlife.

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That's neat Budpo. How do you do healing work on those who have passed on? I love these subjects and am really curious.

Vrai, you say you do not believe in an after life at all. I'm curious about that to. Is it a hopless way of living or is it just matter of fact? I don't think I could make it thinking that this is it.

This brings up another thought. How do you explain ghosts? Life after death experiences? People who claim to have encounters with dead people as if they were still here 20 or 30 minutes after they die somewhere else?

Those of us who belive in the after life support our beliefs with the Bible and some of the things I have mentioned above. How do you support the belief that this is it? Just curious.....

Vrai, you say you do not believe in an after life at all. I'm curious about that to. Is it a hopless way of living or is it just matter of fact? I don't think I could make it thinking that this is it.

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Why not? It doesn't disturb me to think that this life is all I'm going to get - it just motivates me to make the most of it.

I don't believe in ghosts. I do, however, believe in people's overactive imaginations.

I don’t know how anyone can wonder thru this life and see the pain and healing, the evil and the good, the hope and the hopelessness, the miracles and the tragedies, the love and the deceit, the passion and the commitment and think it is all for nothing. There HAS to be a reason, and that reason is to prepare us for something bigger.

I believe there is a God, however, I don’t believe in religion. What I mean by that statement is that religion seems to be a divider of the ultimate belief of God and the controversy over who is right and who is wrong doesn’t change the fact that there is a God. You have the Catholic's telling you it is wrong to use birth control and the Baptist telling you it is wrong to drink. It goes on and on. Growing up, I can say that I visited tons of churches with various beliefs and finally, I had to tell myself that I believe in God and phooey on religion. Religion is just a place to go and be with people with the same belief, GOD.

I never felt as close to God as I did when I lost my mother and watched her die. The things she said and the faith she had, I knew that my faith in God was stronger than it had ever been before. In 1999, I was in the hospital with a torn uterus while pregnant with my second son. I felt a calming peace overwhelm me that everything was going to be all right and to just hang in there when the doctors thought differently. I have a beautiful son who in everyway reminds me of my mother, even down to a birth mark on the back of his neck in the exact same spot. I owe a lot to my faith in God, and I try to live my life the way I think he would want me to live my life.

I saw a VHS tape years ago, which was used for teaching, titled “The Evidence of Creation.” The man who narrated this educational series was an atheist, who believed in “The Big Bang Theory.” Well, he described the evidenced in the earth that made him believe differently.

Several points in this Link are ones he addressed.

Vrail, your entitled to your own opinion and I am very sorry you feel the way you do, but I believe we didn’t crawl out from some rock, we were not monkeys that evolved into the humans we see today, and we just didn’t come from some pond scum. We were created for some divine purpose

Originally posted by Kain99
That's neat Budpo. How do you do healing work on those who have passed on? I love these subjects and am really curious.

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The same way I work on those who haven't passed on yet. Send me a PM or email if you want to talk in more detail, if you like (and since it's getting off this thread's topic).

Originally posted by penncam
Here's where I am a little at a loss to understand the point that Judaism does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah or Savior. There was ample prophesy in the Old Testament that foretold the coming of the Messiah in several of those books;

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Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies in the Old Testament. Moreover, the idea that the messiah would be divine or supernatural in any way is extremely contrary to Judaism, as is the idea of him dying for our sins. The prophecies in the Old Testament talk about someone who will bring peace to the world and be accepted by all nations as king (contrary to your post that he would not be accepted).

How did we get on this topic by talking about karma?

Originally posted by BudoPo
How did we get on this topic by talking about karma?

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You got me! But at least there's some interesting points being made......

I do have an "overactive imagination" as vrai likes to put it :razz2: But I also believe in ghosts...(I hope for the weird things in life: aliens, vampires, werewolves, witches/warlocks, magic, psychics, and talking animals!) Makes life more interesting that way....

Originally posted by Betty_Elms
I hope for the weird things in life:

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i could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl.

Originally posted by red
i could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl.

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Crawl away, I'm always up for a case of the heebie-jeebies!

Originally posted by red
i could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl.

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Well.....?

I can honestly say that I've never had an experience with ghosts or anything like that. I've never "felt a presence" (except for the monsters under the bed ). So, while I don't believe in things like spiritual contact, I still think it's interesting.

Originally posted by Betty_Elms
Crawl away, I'm always up for a case of the heebie-jeebies!

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not something i care to share publicly. everyone would think i'm a real weirdo. some things are just not for public consumption.

Originally posted by red
i could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl.

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Start a new thread red.... Tell! Tell! I love this stuff! I'm with betty, this is the stuff that makes life super interesting.

I'd love to hear your stories and share mine....

Sorry Vrai... My imagination is out of control.

Originally posted by Betty_Elms
....when a child is born with a disability or disfigurement, it is because the universe is working out a karmatic debt....like that sould had done something in a past life that he/she had to pay for.

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So... like... umm.... in that theory: I'm like a punishment for a past life? wouldn't a lot more people be disabled? heck, then in pure theory the world will be ruled by gimps like me! WOHO!

I use to believe in "karma" and I've come to realize it isn't really "karma" it's just coincidence... it's also a lot like "self-fullfilling-prophecy" (i believe) where if you think something bad is going to happen, it will... hoopla (IMHO) for every action there is a reaction... no matter what you do, something will come of it... even if you do nothing, that'll cause "something" to happen...

Now the whole thing about rencarnation... I believe that when you die, you're judged on two decissions in life... you have accepted God into your life and did the best you could with what He gave you... or you don't... and if you've made the decission to accept Jesus as your savior then you are allowed everlasting life in the kingdom of God. I don't believe Hell is fire and burning and physical pain, I believe Hell is just life without Christ. I will say, I lived Hell for years of my life, and somedays it feels like I'm loosing my mind, be He is always there to pull me home, and I know with His love, I will be at peace in the end.

I too have had a lot of ultra-kreepy experiences, too in the past if you wanna exchange stories....

i'm not trying to bash anybodys beliefs, but I have a feeling I've probally hit a lot of nerves... so, if I have, it's only my belief... we were given free will for a reason...