need advice from the other manual shifters here

bohman

bohman

Well-Known Member
How many miles do you typically get out of a clutch before needing to replace it? Mine has had some occasional slipping during the last few days, but my car doesn't have many miles on it yet and I don't ride the clutch excessively (least I think I don't).

The particulars: '02 Saturn SL, 68K on the odometer. Mix of city and highway driving. The few times that it slipped I noticed it not catching at the usual place as I let up on the pedal, then some gentle vibration as I let the pedal out further, then it finally engaged completely with a bit of a lurch when I took my foot completely off and let it out all the way.

Just to further confuse me, it has worked perfectly for the last few hundred miles. Though that could be because I'm baby-ing it now that I'm worried about it.

Any thoughts? This is my first manual car, so I don't have any other cars/driving experience to compare it to.
 
Lugnut

Lugnut

I'm Rick James #####!
It's your first manual car. I would guess that early on you were slipping the clutch more than necessary (we all did!) I don't think 68K is too early to see some problems for a first time stick shift driver.

I think the good behavior over the last couple hundred miles is due to your driving habits since noticing a problem, just as you said.

If you replace the clutch with OEM parts I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted twice as long or more (now that you have more experience using a clutch.)
 
S

stormer41

New Member
when the clutch finally engages and your having vibration your going to need a flywheel replacment.
Might want to try and see if you could have the clutch adjusted before you have the flywheel replaced.
But adjustment is only going to delay the inevitable.
And if you want some lessons on how to run without the clutch.....let me know....I can show you how to run up and down without hitting the clutch once. Cause if you really think about it....what do you need a clutch for.....only to start and stop
Perhaps I should qualify the above statement:
I have over 20 yrs of experience of working on heavy trucks, and was shown this trick by my father who has over 20 yrs experience of driving truck....all accident free.
 
aps45819

aps45819

24/7 Single Dad
Don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal at lights or while you're driving down the road.
You should be able to get 150-200K from a clutch.
 
MMDad

MMDad

Lem Putt
aps45819 said:
Don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal at lights or while you're driving down the road.
You should be able to get 150-200K from a clutch.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: My '88 Nissan had 225K on the original clutch. It didn't actually fail until it was contaminated by an unrelated leak. The brakes only had to be replaced once in all those miles.

I've seen a lot of people who rev the engine higher than necessary and use an awful lot of clutch to start out. Remember, the clutch itself does not wear when it is either fully engaged or fully disengaged. Anything in between is wearing on it.

Of course, there could be more maintenance related factors.
 
willie

willie

Well-Known Member
aps45819 said:
Don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal at lights or while you're driving down the road.
You should be able to get 150-200K from a clutch.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:
True stuff.

QUOTE:The few times that it slipped I noticed it not catching at the usual place as I let up on the pedal, then some gentle vibration as I let the pedal out further, then it finally engaged completely with a bit of a lurch when I took my foot completely off and let it out all the way.
You may have lost a part of the clutch facing.

NEVER slip the clutch. Ignore the guy that says not to use your clutch, that's only for 16 year olds when daddy buys the transmission synchronizers.
 
vraiblonde

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I had my Jeep for - ready? - 13 years and never replaced the clutch. AND I taught two kids to drive on it.
 
S

Schizo

Guest
aps45819 said:
Don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal at lights or while you're driving down the road.
You should be able to get 150-200K from a clutch.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:

I had an Isuzu Trooper II that had 150K on the original clutch, don't know how much longer before it needed replacement because I traded it in.
 
bohman

bohman

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input, everybody. Was out earlier today, no problems at all. Of course I am still going gentle on it, and was even practicing shifting w/out clutch. I know how to do it, but it's not easy with the saturn because it isn't doesn't give you a lot of fine control over the throttle at lower speeds. It's either idling, or the slightest pressure on the pedal will jump the engine up another 1000 rpm. Not difficult to upshift, just pull it into neutral and wait for the rpm to fall to the right speed for the next gear, but downshifting is harder as the throttle makes it difficult to bump the engine up to the appropriate speed. But even upshifting is a pain w/out clutch in this car, because it takes a while for the engine to spool down slow enough to put it in the next gear. By the time I get to 5th gear, I've got some pissed off drivers behind me. :lol:

Stormer, I've always been impressed with the skill truckers have. I used to ride shotgun on beer delivery trucks; one of our drivers used to drive all day without touching the clutch pedal except to start and stop. Up and down through a 7-speed gearbox all day, and never once did I hear a gear grind.

Speaking of which, I wanted some confirmation on something: If I am shifting w/out using clutch, their shouldn't be any potential to damage gears unless I grind them? In other words, if I shift smoothly and I don't hear any noise, it should be fine right? Common sense tells me it should be ok, but obviously I'm not much of a mechanic so I wanted to hear somebody else tell me that I'm right. If it comes down to it, replacing a clutch should be cheaper than repairing any other damage.
 
willie

willie

Well-Known Member
As the gears slide into mesh, the synchronizer contacts the stationary gear first. With the clutch depressed, the gear is able to speed up (or slow down) and mesh with the incoming gear at the same speed. Without using the clutch, all you have to do is gently press the shifter towards the next gear and the synchronizer will hold it back until you work the throttle and get the gear speeds equal. This is very hard on the synchros and eventually you will have no choice but to be as good as the old time truck drivers. A real disaster can occur when you take it out of gear and you didn't get engine force equal to the road force....in other words, it took a real grunt to pull it out of gear. In this case, when the gears un-mesh all the force of wheels are on the synchro and besides being a big force, it is in the opposite direction it was designed for. It comes apart and you can't get back in that gear. Knowing how to shift without the clutch can come in handy if the servo or linkage ever fails but other than that, it serves no useful purpose.
 
bohman

bohman

Well-Known Member
willie said:
Knowing how to shift without the clutch can come in handy if the servo or linkage ever fails but other than that, it serves no useful purpose.
Click to expand...

Ok then. Back to using the clutch, but more gently. That also explains why a former coworker of mine always had to shift from 1st to 3rd in his old jeep... :lmao:

I did wonder how the sychonizers would come into play here...I know how they work in theory, and what they are supposed to do, but I'm just not a skilled enough mechanic to really know the nuts and bolts of it. My do-it-yourself skill for the car ends with oil changes and battery or belt replacements. Someday I'll get around to buying a service manual for this car and read up on it.

Thanks again for the input. :yay:
 
MMDad

MMDad

Lem Putt
bohman said:
Thanks for the input, everybody. Was out earlier today, no problems at all. Of course I am still going gentle on it, and was even practicing shifting w/out clutch. I know how to do it, but it's not easy with the saturn because it isn't doesn't give you a lot of fine control over the throttle at lower speeds. It's either idling, or the slightest pressure on the pedal will jump the engine up another 1000 rpm. Not difficult to upshift, just pull it into neutral and wait for the rpm to fall to the right speed for the next gear, but downshifting is harder as the throttle makes it difficult to bump the engine up to the appropriate speed. But even upshifting is a pain w/out clutch in this car, because it takes a while for the engine to spool down slow enough to put it in the next gear. By the time I get to 5th gear, I've got some pissed off drivers behind me. :lol:

Stormer, I've always been impressed with the skill truckers have. I used to ride shotgun on beer delivery trucks; one of our drivers used to drive all day without touching the clutch pedal except to start and stop. Up and down through a 7-speed gearbox all day, and never once did I hear a gear grind.

Speaking of which, I wanted some confirmation on something: If I am shifting w/out using clutch, their shouldn't be any potential to damage gears unless I grind them? In other words, if I shift smoothly and I don't hear any noise, it should be fine right? Common sense tells me it should be ok, but obviously I'm not much of a mechanic so I wanted to hear somebody else tell me that I'm right. If it comes down to it, replacing a clutch should be cheaper than repairing any other damage.
Click to expand...

I suspect you wanted a laymans view, instead of the engineers version. The bottom line is:

If you hear it grind, it is grinding. Period. You can do a grindless clutchless shift, but if you have a good clutch why bother? Either way, unless you do the "grind 'em till you find 'em" you aren't doing much to hurt the longevity of the tranny. New ones tend to be so freaking finicky, I wouldn't mess with it.
 
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Cletus_Vandam

Cletus_Vandam

New Member
stormer41 said:
when the clutch finally engages and your having vibration your going to need a flywheel replacement.
Click to expand...

I would get a second opinion on this before jumping to that conclusion.

I just did the clutch in my Toyota; '93 with 170k miles and the original clutch. Pulled the trans and found that the flywheel had some hot spots but a $50 resurfacing sure beat the heck out of the $350 replacement cost. You won't know for sure until you pull the trans and see how bad things are.

Whatever you do, replace the disk, pressure plate and the throw out bearing. Check the wear on the pilot bearing and depending on how difficult the whole R/R process is, you may want to look at rebuilding or replacing your slave cylinder.

Also, shifting w/o a clutch... only if it's a rental or your planning on trading it in a week or two. Very hard on the synchronizers and blocking rings.
 
jazz lady

jazz lady

~*~ Rara Avis ~*~
PREMO Member
Cletus_Vandam said:
Also, shifting w/o a clutch... only if it's a rental or your planning on trading it in a week or two. Very hard on the synchronizers and blocking rings.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: It's very hard to get it just right, but it can be done.

I got around 140k on the original clutch in my '88 Chrysler, but you should get more out of one than that IMO.
 
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