http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0502vegans.html

Vegan parents guilty in infant murder
6-week-old died of starvation after being fed diet of soy milk, apple juice

By BETH WARREN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 05/02/07

The parents of a baby that died of starvation after being fed a vegan diet have been found guilty of malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children.

Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31, will get an automatic life sentence for the death of their 6-week-old infant, Crown. After being fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice, he weighed only 3 1/2 pounds when he died.

The Fulton County jury deliberated the case for about seven hours.

Prosecutors said it was a chilling case of murder by starvation, a painful and prolonged death. Attorneys representing Sanders and Thomas told jurors the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to their vegan lifestyle. Vegans typically live free of animal products.

"They're not vegans, they're baby killers," Fulton prosecutor Mike Carlson told the jury Tuesday during his closing arguments.

The couple's attorneys said they didn't realize their baby, born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

Who knew people from Vegas were so mental...:shocking:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0502vegans.html
It took the "parents" 6 wks. to realize this?
Another example of why stupid people shouldn't breed-an automatic life sentence isn't good enough!

:coffee:

You would think a vegan would breastfeed - or is that considered an animal product, too?

Anyway, they must have been underfeeding the child because all a 6 week old eats is milk/formula anyway, so the soy milk shouldn't have been a problem. I'm skeptical of this story.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0502vegans.html


This is not a case of hating vegans, this is a case of complete stupidity and maliciousness blamed on the vegan lifestyle. I'm by far not a vegan (yum...red meat!). The parents obviously intended to hurt their child...they just found a weak excuse to do it. Lock 'em up and serve them meat and dairy all day!

http://criminal.lawyers.com/news-headline/Jury:-Baby-murdered-by-vegan-parents--Guilty-verdict...-l:607132271.html

another article of the same

You would think a vegan would breastfeed - or is that considered an animal product, too?

Anyway, they must have been underfeeding the child because all a 6 week old eats is milk/formula anyway, so the soy milk shouldn't have been a problem. I'm skeptical of this story.
Right on Vrai!
Most of the soy milk products clearly state-" NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BABY FORMULA"

http://criminal.lawyers.com/news-headline/Jury:-Baby-murdered-by-vegan-parents--Guilty-verdict...-l:607132271.html

another article of the same
The 6-week-old was dead when his parents took him to Piedmont Hospital, across the street from their apartment

in fact, 2 glasses of soy milk/day, over the course of one month, contain enough of the chemical to change the timing of a woman’s menstrual cycle. (http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm)

It took the "parents" 6 wks. to realize this?
Another example of why stupid people shouldn't breed-an automatic life sentence isn't good enough!

...a load of crap. Life sentence for starving their 6 week old to death? That's madness. If these people are productive members of society and all they've done is starve their child to death, why is this ANY of societies business, let alone worthy of putting them in jail?

They could have gotten a legal abortion at any time from 6 weeks and a day sooner.

We live in a culture of death. You can't, you can NOT tell people it's a simple matter of choice to have an abortion and then, suddenly, the day the child is born, change all the rules; NOW you have to be responsible. NOW you have to be a loving parent. NOW you have to do what society says is best for that child even though society says you could have killed it yesterday. Or a month ago. Or three. It's like having a 25 mph zone on the interstate 100 feet after a 70 mph; we're gonna have crashes.

Jail?

Soy is not the health food that you think it is.
But they have soy formula for babies who are lactose intolerant, so why wouldn't the dumb parents have just fed the baby that? And apple juice is too much for a baby that young.

I agree with JenBen - this has nothing to do with the vegan lifestyle and more to do with stupid parents.

But they have soy formula for babies who are lactose intolerant, so why wouldn't the dumb parents have just fed the baby that? And apple juice is too much for a baby that young.

I agree with JenBen - this has nothing to do with the vegan lifestyle and more to do with stupid parents.


Agreed, you can't fix stupid. :ohwell:


But, the chemical in Soy is still an issue. A lady I work with can't eat Soy products because it messes with the Thyroid meds she's on.

...a load of crap. Life sentence for starving their 6 week old to death? That's madness. If these people are productive members of society and all they've done is starve their child to death, why is this ANY of societies business, let alone worthy of putting them in jail?

They could have gotten a legal abortion at any time from 6 weeks and a day sooner.

We live in a culture of death. You can't, you can NOT tell people it's a simple matter of choice to have an abortion and then, suddenly, the day the child is born, change all the rules; NOW you have to be responsible. NOW you have to be a loving parent. NOW you have to do what society says is best for that child even though society says you could have killed it yesterday. Or a month ago. Or three. It's like having a 25 mph zone on the interstate 100 feet after a 70 mph; we're gonna have crashes.

Jail?
If that was your grandchild would a life sentence be good enough? :eyebrow:

I agree with JenBen - this has nothing to do with the vegan lifestyle and more to do with stupid parents.

True, but it seems that these "militant vegans" can't be told anything sensible when it comes to these matters.

If that was your grandchild would a life sentence be good enough? :eyebrow:


..hope that any of my kids would have the child and love it and care for it. They, we, live in a society that tells them abortion is OK but they know I think abortion is murder and Vrail has told them anyone who wants to have an abortion should probably have it; they'd likely make bad parents if that is how they view their unborn, as a choice.

If it happened to me anyway, I'd be heartbroke and sick about it. If those two who did this were my kid and in law I don't know how I'd ever be able to be civil to them again. I don't know how I'd ever reconcile that I was so poor of a parent that I sent a child off into the world that freaking stupid. This is why parents stay up late worrying; it could happen.

I mean, maybe besides this incident, these two are worthless and criminally idiotic any way and maybe jail is best. Having said that, if they are simply such stupid freaks, but otherwise law abiding, I can't send them to jail for this.

You would think a vegan would breastfeed - or is that considered an animal product, too?

Anyway, they must have been underfeeding the child because all a 6 week old eats is milk/formula anyway, so the soy milk shouldn't have been a problem. I'm skeptical of this story.



vrai, i immediately thought the same as you...

The parents were found guilty of cruelty to children and felony murder which calls for a mandatory life prison sentence.
This has nothing to do with the fact they where vegan.
First of all, the kid was born in a bathtub.
Secondly there is a hospital ACROSS the street from their apartment.
Third - breast milk is "ok" with most every vegan.
Fourth - they didn't take him to the hospital till AFTER the baby was dead.
Fifth - there are PLENTY of vegan diets that are healthy for babies.
Sixth - they weren't "vegan", until they needed a defense to get out of killing their baby.

Don't blame this on vegans, blame this on really bad parents. :yay:

"We're against animal cruelty. So why would I be cruel to my son? We're against animals being burdened. Why would [I] be cruel and burden him and try to drive around and do something with his body? We're going to jail for no reason," said Thomas (the Dad)

Don't blame this on vegans, blame this on really bad parents. :yay:


...but life in jail?

Don't blame this on vegans, blame this on really bad parents. :yay:

But it is fun to blame people who try to feel better about themselves by not eating any animals so that bambi can live longer. Besides most of them are hippies to boot.

...but life in jail?
Frankly, I wish they'd lock up all stupid people. So, yeah, put me in the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" category. Even better would be to just euthanize them.

Frankly, I wish they'd lock up all stupid people. So, yeah, put me in the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" category. Even better would be to just euthanize them.
:kiss:

I say they get the same food as they gave the baby while they are in prison. Let them both die as their baby did.

Frankly, I wish they'd lock up all stupid people. So, yeah, put me in the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" category. Even better would be to just euthanize them.


...the Final Solution solution.

I say we export them to Iran and North Korea.

...the Final Solution solution.
So, by that little Hitler barb, can I assume that you no longer support the death penalty?

So, by that little Hitler barb, can I assume that you no longer support the death penalty?


So, yeah, put me in the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" category. Even better would be to just euthanize them.

...speak for yourself?

Do we have enough jail cells for 'all the stupid' people?

Doesn't 'euthanize' mean kill?

I am ALL for the death penalty for violent criminals. I would kill Chuckie Manson and his pal Tookie. I would kill Tim McVeigh. I would kill the loon who shot Reagan whose stupid name escapes me just now. Dahlmer? Dead.

I am not for putting down tree huggers who starve their child to death, especially if they can be put to good use in the gerber mines. Maybe sterilize. Not euthanize.

I am not for putting down tree huggers who starve their child to death,
I am. I think that if you willfully cause the death of someone else, you should be (as Ron White says) killed back. :jet:

I am. I think that if you willfully cause the death of someone else, you should be (as Ron White says) killed back. :jet:


...start at 6 weeks after being born? 6 weeks before? Are abortionists willfully causing the death of someone else? The woman?

I'd like to think there is something else wrong with these two people, that they are POS's in general and add nothing to society anyway. Who knows? Maybe he is some Manson type mind controller and she was forced into this?

It would seem readily evident that they just ain't right if they just watched this child starve to death, but I need something more because, to me, if they could kill it legally 6 weeks ago, why not now?

But they have soy formula for babies who are lactose intolerant, so why wouldn't the dumb parents have just fed the baby that? And apple juice is too much for a baby that young.

I agree with JenBen - this has nothing to do with the vegan lifestyle and more to do with stupid parents.

:yeahthat: I'm not vegan, but my 5 mo. daughter is pretty much on a vegan diet: Soy Formula (can't do milk products), fruit baby food, and rice cereal. She's a chubby, happy little 15 pounder. Definately isn't starving. I think it's definately just stupid parents!

True, but it seems that these "militant vegans" can't be told anything sensible when it comes to these matters.


I'd be shocked if I could find a real vegan who didn't believe in breastmilk. It's all crap. They came up with what they thought was a great excuse and they are running with it. It's pathetic.

Frankly, I wish they'd lock up all stupid people. So, yeah, put me in the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" category. Even better would be to just euthanize them.Problem with that is that you must have a clear definition of 'stupid'. Obviously this was stupid and other notable examples exhibit stupidity. However, who makes this definition (besides yourself:razz:, even if you were able to wield such power) and could it be interpreted in the future to include people who aren't seen as stupid today? We'd have a stupid witch hunt that would soon reach out of control proportions. That would be stupid and society as a whole would have to be euthanized.:jameo:

You would think a vegan would breastfeed - or is that considered an animal product, too?
Depends on their interpretation but technically we're animals too.

Problem with that is that you must have a clear definition of 'stupid'. Obviously this was stupid and other notable examples exhibit stupidity. However, who makes this definition (besides yourself:razz:, even if you were able to wield such power) and could it be interpreted in the future to include people who aren't seen as stupid today? We'd have a stupid witch hunt that would soon reach out of control proportions. That would be stupid and society as a whole would have to be euthanized.
Maybe it could be like American Idol, where you get a bunch of stupids together, let 'em go for the cameras, then each week there's a vote by the public as to who gets the chair. Kind of like Survivor, with a twist. :jet:

Maybe it could be like American Idol, where you get a bunch of stupids together, let 'em go for the cameras, then each week there's a vote by the public as to who gets the chair. Kind of like Survivor, with a twist. :jet:


...Richard Dawson to host and have a home edition game and...


:lmao:

This reminds me of the futurama episode where aliens are trying to eat Leela and they switch her for an ape..Then this hippy treehugger runs in and says its not really her, its an ape because he's trying to save the ape. Ahh. I love that show.

Maybe it could be like American Idol, where you get a bunch of stupids together, let 'em go for the cameras, then each week there's a vote by the public as to who gets the chair. Kind of like Survivor, with a twist. :jet:Now that's entertainment!

...we, live in a society that tells them abortion is OK but they know I think abortion is murder...
Having said that, if they are simply such stupid freaks, but otherwise law abiding, I can't send them to jail for this.
Do I understand you correctly, that you see abortion as murder but not starving your child to death as the same?

Do I understand you correctly, that you see abortion as murder but not starving your child to death as the same?


...trying to emphasize is that if you tell people they can do something and describe it as perfectly legal, a celebrated right no less, but only up to a certain point, then it is difficult for me to see a moral reason to forbid what amounts to the same thing, or even less so if they had no intent to starve the child, condemn them and send them off to jail.

There is death in abortion. It is legal. You do not go to jail for it.
This child starved to death. I have no idea if they meant to kill it, which, if they did, can't possibly be argued as any different than aborting it a mere six weeks earlier and, if they didn't mean to, it is certainly not as bad as an abortion.

Re-reading your post, I'm not sure I understood clearly, so, if you could clarify a bit or did I answer your question?

...There is death in abortion. It is legal. You do not go to jail for it. This child starved to death. I have no idea if they meant to kill it, which, if they did, can't possibly be argued as any different than aborting it a mere six weeks earlier and, if they didn't mean to, it is certainly not as bad as an abortion.
I'm guessing you agree, neglect has been commited here. However, unless criminal intent is proven, that the punishment is not warranted?

I'm guessing you agree, neglect has been commited here. However, unless criminal intent is proven, that the punishment is not warranted?


...these folks killed that child, neglect or intentionally, either way. As for punishment, how do you rationalize sending someone to jail for killing when it was just fine 6 weeks earlier? It's their child.

Society doesn't like messy questions. Well, that doesn't mean the questions just go away if you ignore them or give them arbitrary answers.

...these folks killed that child, neglect or intentionally, either way. As for punishment, how do you rationalize sending someone to jail for killing when it was just fine 6 weeks earlier? It's their child.

Society doesn't like messy questions. Well, that doesn't mean the questions just go away if you ignore them or give them arbitrary answers.
Who said the baby was "just fine" 6 weeks earlier? The parents??? Please! The poor baby never saw a doctor and when the baby was seen, the doctors could count EVERY bone in the infants body! That just didn't happen in a day or two...come'on Larry you're being too civilized! :elaine:

Who said the baby was "just fine" 6 weeks earlier? The parents??? Please! The poor baby never saw a doctor and when the baby was seen, the doctors could count EVERY bone in the infants body! That just didn't happen in a day or two...come'on Larry you're being too civilized! :elaine:


...I certainly shouldn't say 'just fine' as I'm pretty sure this infants life was misery.

Is there a distinction to be made from abortion to what these parents did? If there is, what's the difference? I would never propose jailing someone for choosing an abortion and I wouldn't outlaw it. You just can't legislate that kind of morality. "You can't abort thus you must love and nurture your child." How do you do that?

For all I know these people are freaking monsters and not simply stupid. Maybe they belong in jail forever. I just don't see it.

Who said the baby was "just fine" 6 weeks earlier? The parents??? Please! The poor baby never saw a doctor and when the baby was seen, the doctors could count EVERY bone in the infants body! That just didn't happen in a day or two...come'on Larry you're being too civilized! :elaine:


...re-read my own post. What I meant was it was just fine to abort it six weeks earlier, meaning legal. Again, I'm sure the infant was NOT just fine.

The parents of a baby that died of starvation after being fed a vegan diet have been found guilty of malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children.


I just stumbled onto this thread - so I'm sure that someone has already said all this, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway ... The fact that they're vegans didn't kill the child - the fact that they're COMPLETELY EFFING STUPID is what killed it. It wasn't malice - it was ignorance.

Now, I have nothing against the vegan lifestyle. If some unwashed, unshaven hippy freak wants to avoid using animal products at all costs, that's fine by me. Honestly, I think the story focuses too much on the fact that they are vegans, and not enough on the fact that they are mindblowing idiots.

Never attribute to malice what could easily be attributed to stupidity.

Here's a question: Why didn't mom breast feed the kid? Even if mom lives on carrots and granola and wears everything made of 100% cotton her boob-juice should have sustained the kid. Seems to me the perfect way to force your lifestyle on a poor unsuspecting baby.


Does human milk qualify as an animal product...?



The couple's attorneys said they didn't realize their baby, born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

Didn't the fact that a 6 week old infant was only 3 1/2 pounds tip them off? If a newborn LOSES weight - even a few ounces, something is very wrong.

That should be patently obvious to even the most casual observer.

:bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

I just stumbled onto this thread - so I'm sure that someone has already said all this, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway ... The fact that they're vegans didn't kill the child - the fact that they're COMPLETELY EFFING STUPID is what killed it. It wasn't malice - it was ignorance.

Now, I have nothing against the vegan lifestyle. If some unwashed, unshaven hippy freak wants to avoid using animal products at all costs, that's fine by me. Honestly, I think the story focuses too much on the fact that they are vegans, and not enough on the fact that they are mindblowing idiots.

Never attribute to malice what could easily be attributed to stupidity.

Here's a question: Why didn't mom breast feed the kid? Even if mom lives on carrots and granola and wears everything made of 100% cotton her boob-juice should have sustained the kid. Seems to me the perfect way to force your lifestyle on a poor unsuspecting baby.


Does human milk qualify as an animal product...?





Didn't the fact that a 6 week old infant was only 3 1/2 pounds tip them off? If a newborn LOSES weight - even a few ounces, something is very wrong.

That should be patently obvious to even the most casual observer.

:bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

I wonder what would happen if being Vegan was considered religious choice?

An interesting quote from the script of he show "House"

"Dr. House: She has gone from the 25th weight percentile to the 3rd in one month. Now I'm not a baby expert, but I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to shrink.
Rachel Kaplan: Well there's this diet we put her on when she stopped breast feeding...
Andrew Kaplan: But it's healthy, um, raw food. We're vegans. Almond milk, tofu, uh, vegetables...
Dr. House: Raw food... If only her ancestors had mastered the secret of fire. Babies need fat, proteins, calories. Less important: sprouts and hemp. Starving babies is bad and illegal in many cultures. I'm having her admitted."

An interesting quote from the script of he show "House"

"Dr. House: She has gone from the 25th weight percentile to the 3rd in one month. Now I'm not a baby expert, but I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to shrink.
Rachel Kaplan: Well there's this diet we put her on when she stopped breast feeding...
Andrew Kaplan: But it's healthy, um, raw food. We're vegans. Almond milk, tofu, uh, vegetables...
Dr. House: Raw food... If only her ancestors had mastered the secret of fire. Babies need fat, proteins, calories. Less important: sprouts and hemp. Starving babies is bad and illegal in many cultures. I'm having her admitted."


House is my hero.

I think the Judge could not find a law that covered STUPID!!
What about the grandmothers..both in court.
Were they totally STUPID and clueless about the welfare of their grandson?
Heck....they lived across the street from a hospital, yet never went for fear of GERMS?
:jameo: :jameo: :jameo: :jameo:

Wonder if jail serves vegan? Gonna be a LONG time in prison...
That poor baby...6 weeks and only 3.5 pounds.
A kitten weighs that much at 3 months!!!
Most new borns weigh 5-8 pounds..
What a shame, a sad, sorry shame.....

House is my hero.


Stuart little's dad rocks

It took the "parents" 6 wks. to realize this?
Another example of why stupid people shouldn't breed-an automatic life sentence isn't good enough!
:yay:

An interesting quote from the script of he show "House"

"Dr. House: She has gone from the 25th weight percentile to the 3rd in one month. Now I'm not a baby expert, but I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to shrink.
Rachel Kaplan: Well there's this diet we put her on when she stopped breast feeding...
Andrew Kaplan: But it's healthy, um, raw food. We're vegans. Almond milk, tofu, uh, vegetables...
Dr. House: Raw food... If only her ancestors had mastered the secret of fire. Babies need fat, proteins, calories. Less important: sprouts and hemp. Starving babies is bad and illegal in many cultures. I'm having her admitted."
:popcorn:

...Is there a distinction to be made from abortion to what these parents did? If there is, what's the difference? Our society has decided there is a line, and the law clearly defines it. You may disagree with where the line is drawn, but that doesn't change the fact that what these two did was murder and they deserve far harsher punishment than they will receive.

Vegan couple sentenced to life over baby's death (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/)

Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

But prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away.

“No matter how many times they want to say, ‘We’re vegans, we’re vegetarians,’ that’s not the issue in this case,” said prosecutor Chuck Boring. “The child died because he was not fed. Period.”

Vegan couple sentenced to life over baby's death (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/)
:yay:

Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

:bs: At 3.5 pounds, that child was a skeleton and any idiot with a grain of common sense would know it was going to die.

Vegan couple sentenced to life over baby's death (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/)

Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

But prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away.

“No matter how many times they want to say, ‘We’re vegans, we’re vegetarians,’ that’s not the issue in this case,” said prosecutor Chuck Boring. “The child died because he was not fed. Period.”
I watched a short video on CNN about this today and the man complained about the jail food (I guess because it doesn't fit his lifestyle). "I'm dying everyday in there" he said. :wah:

Our society has decided there is a line, and the law clearly defines it. You may disagree with where the line is drawn, but that doesn't change the fact that what these two did was murder and they deserve far harsher punishment than they will receive.

...with you there.

Where I do argue is that is it a fact that abortion is murder as well. It just is. So, to get all worked up over a couple of morons starving their kid to death isn't something that comes readily to me either reflexively or intellectually given I have been told, in no uncertain, terms since I was a kid that it is a woman's RIGHT to choose whether or not to have her unborn gotten rid of.

A mom starves her kid to death = life in jail

1,00,000 abortions this year = not even a ticket.

I guess Stalin had a point; Seems a death is a tragedy. A million is merely a statistic.

...with you there.

Where I do argue is that is it a fact that abortion is murder as well. It just is. So, to get all worked up over a couple of morons starving their kid to death isn't something that comes readily to me either reflexively or intellectually given I have been told, in no uncertain, terms since I was a kid that it is a woman's RIGHT to choose whether or not to have her unborn gotten rid of.

A mom starves her kid to death = life in jail

1,00,000 abortions this year = not even a ticket.

I guess Stalin had a point; Seems a death is a tragedy. A million is merely a statistic.
I understand the point that you are trying to make, however, I disagree with you using this case as a political stance against abortion. They starved their child to death and the abortion argument does not forgive this.

I watched a short video on CNN about this today and the man complained about the jail food (I guess because it doesn't fit his lifestyle). "I'm dying everyday in there" he said. :wah:

Well....maybe they won't realize the couple is in "danger of dying" until they are 70 lbs each, and it's too late for them?? :shrug:

"I'm dying everyday in there" he said.
That took some real nads to say that for the camera. :lol:

Some people just don't get it.

"I'm dying everyday in there" he said.



That is so Like rain on your wedding day.


If his baby had had the words to speak, I'm sure he would have said something very similar.

...with you there.

Where I do argue is that is it a fact that abortion is murder as well. It just is. So, to get all worked up over a couple of morons starving their kid to death isn't something that comes readily to me either reflexively or intellectually given I have been told, in no uncertain, terms since I was a kid that it is a woman's RIGHT to choose whether or not to have her unborn gotten rid of.

A mom starves her kid to death = life in jail

1,00,000 abortions this year = not even a ticket.

I guess Stalin had a point; Seems a death is a tragedy. A million is merely a statistic.
I am sure there are numerous threads in which you can rally your opinion on abortion. This simply isn't an abortion thread. Nor, IMO, does it carry relevance substantial enough to continue to post statement of debate.

I feel, if you want to argue on the opinion of what is worse, euthanizing the infant at birth or dragging it out mercilessly and starving it for six weeks while a hospital resides within walking distance? I'm temped to say that although they should get life for either situation, at least the infant's organs would not have been eating it's own body's nutrients in order to survive. The infant should have been granted grace if the vegan idiots were going to play god.

I understand the point that you are trying to make, however, I disagree with you using this case as a political stance against abortion. They starved their child to death and the abortion argument does not forgive this. :yeahthat: Larry, please read what she wrote over and over again until you understand it.

I understand the point that you are trying to make, however, I disagree with you using this case as a political stance against abortion. They starved their child to death and the abortion argument does not forgive this.


...how is this any more offensive or henious than 'just turn on the shop vac and get it over with'?

I am sure there are numerous threads in which you can rally your opinion on abortion. This simply isn't an abortion thread. Nor, IMO, does it carry relevance substantial enough to continue to post statement of debate.

I feel, if you want to argue on the opinion of what is worse, euthanizing the infant at birth or dragging it out mercilessly and starving it for six weeks while a hospital resides within walking distance? I'm temped to say that although they should get life for either situation, at least the infant's organs would not have been eating it's own body's nutrients in order to survive. The infant should have been granted grace if the vegan idiots were going to play god.


...an abortion debate; my argument started with whether or not they deserve jail and life in jail for staring their infant to death. It just so happens that abortion provides a handy context, and I think, legitimate context.

...how is this any more offensive or henious than 'just turn on the shop vac and get it over with'?

I am not pro-abortion; but I feel you can not compare abortion to starving a infant! With abortion the baby does not suffer for 6 weeks! There IS a difference between the two.

I am sure there are numerous threads in which you can rally your opinion on abortion. This simply isn't an abortion thread. Nor, IMO, does it carry relevance substantial enough to continue to post statement of debate.

...I am not trying to rally some anti abortion thing either. I think abortion is reality in this nation and I think it should be because you can not make someone want to bare children and care for them and love them BUT if we're going to accept the argument that a woman can choose in and of herself to make the decision, whatever her reasons and motivations and it's gonna be more common than people dying of heart disease, then I can't get worked up about this case and the sanction imposed while yesterday, today and tomorrow and so on some 3,000 more unborn got tossed in the trash.

We're arguing levels of grotesqueness here.

I am not pro-abortion; but I feel you can not compare abortion to starving a infant! With abortion the baby does not suffer for 6 weeks! There IS a difference between the two.


...and the question is "is the difference relevant?"

From what I know, this infant died based on their beliefs. They didn't chop it's head off. They didn't throw it out the window. In short, as I understand it, they didn't mean this to happen. Maybe they smirked in front of the judge and the jury felt they did maliciously kill the infant? Does anyone know? Did they love this infant, hug it and hold and care for it as they saw fit? That would change my opinion. Maybe they're just that stupid and/or delusional? Are they heart broke? Devastated? This is just horrible and makes me sick but I don't see, based on what I've read, that they belong in jail for this.

I have to give the jury credit for being the ones passing judgement. Maybe they are monsters?

...:blahblah: You certainly are stubborn, aren't you? You are starting to make JPC look rational.

...and the question is "is the difference relevant?"

From what I know, this infant died based on their beliefs. They didn't chop it's head off. They didn't throw it out the window. In short, as I understand it, they didn't mean this to happen. Maybe they smirked in front of the judge and the jury felt they did maliciously kill the infant? Does anyone know? Did they love this infant, hug it and hold and care for it as they saw fit? That would change my opinion. Maybe they're just that stupid and/or delusional? Are they heart broke? Devastated? This is just horrible and makes me sick but I don't see, based on what I've read, that they belong in jail for this.

I have to give the jury credit for being the ones passing judgement. Maybe they are monsters?

First of all, I don't buy for one second that it was their lifestyle that caused this. My daughter CAN'T have mild products, so she drinks SOY FORMULA. She also now is old enough to have FRUIT baby food. She just happens to be on a vegan diet. She's a healthy, chubby, 15 lb 5 month old. So that's just :bs: to cover up the fact that they NEGLECTED their infant, and STARVED the baby to death! And any idiot with half a brain should know you if their infant looks like a skeleton, SOMETHING IS WRONG!

You certainly are stubborn, aren't you? You are starting to make JPC look rational.


...is it the case that insulting me is your way of saying you can't deal with the argument or is it your way of saying I, Larry, am flat wrong and have no point?


FACT: An infant died of neglect.

Accusation: Prosecutor; they're not vegans, they're baby killers.

Defense; Say's they did the best they could while adhering to their vegan lifestyle.

To consider; this is nothing new; READ IT

http://www.atforumz.com/archive/index.php/t-130820.html


I have found nothing, so far, that says these people were intentionally malicious. I have read plenty that says this is what they, vegans, some of them anyway, think and how they behave.

Stubborn people tend to call other people stubborn when they don't get their way. I am saying there is more to this than monsters killing babies. You're saying that is ALL there is to it. I'm willing to consider your 'baby killers and that's all they are' position and have written several times that if there is evidence that there is more to it than a couple of kooks offing their kid, I could change my mind.

If not, the fact that they starved it to death does not show malicious intent. It does not show two people who belong behind bars. They didn't kill your kid or my kid or anyone else's. They are not forcing their ways on someone else's kid. They are, from what I know, zero threat to society other than their infant.

First of all, I don't buy for one second that it was their lifestyle that caused this. My daughter CAN'T have mild products, so she drinks SOY FORMULA. She also now is old enough to have FRUIT baby food. She just happens to be on a vegan diet. She's a healthy, chubby, 15 lb 5 month old. So that's just :bs: to cover up the fact that they NEGLECTED their infant, and STARVED the baby to death! And any idiot with half a brain should know you if their infant looks like a skeleton, SOMETHING IS WRONG!


...you've read my post before this before I address what you do and don't by. It ain't hard to find other incidences of vegans killing their infant with what they seem to think is a just fine diet.

As for as them being 'any idiots', again, this is nothing new and FWIW, I personally consider 'vegan' crazy in and of itself and I agree they KILLED THEIR KID.

...I am not trying to rally some anti abortion thing either. I think abortion is reality in this nation and I think it should be because you can not make someone want to bare children and care for them and love them BUT if we're going to accept the argument that a woman can choose in and of herself to make the decision, whatever her reasons and motivations and it's gonna be more common than people dying of heart disease, then I can't get worked up about this case and the sanction imposed while yesterday, today and tomorrow and so on some 3,000 more unborn got tossed in the trash.

We're arguing levels of grotesqueness here.

So Larry, you're pretty much saying that if it's ok to kill your FETUS by having an abortion, it's ok to kill your 6 week old baby..because hell, it's YOUR baby.

Are you saying it is ok to kill a baby up to only a certain age? Because hell, 6, 7, 8 weeks etc. I could've had an abortion and it was ok then?

Your argument is rediculous. This couple murdered their baby....regardless of how old their baby was, it is still murder. They deserve to rot in jail.

Before a baby is born, it's considered a fetus, not a baby. That's just the way it is. :shrug:

So Larry, you're pretty much saying that if it's ok to kill your FETUS by having an abortion, it's ok to kill your 6 week old baby..because hell, it's YOUR baby.

Are you saying it is ok to kill a baby up to only a certain age? Because hell, 6, 7, 8 weeks etc. I could've had an abortion and it was ok then?

Your argument is rediculous. This couple murdered their baby....regardless of how old their baby was, it is still murder. They deserve to rot in jail.

Before a baby is born, it's considered a fetus, not a baby. That's just the way it is. :shrug:

Day before you're born; it's called an abortion.
Day after: It's murder

2 days before; abortion
2 days after; murder

3 days, a week, a month, 2 months?

If the child had died within a few days of birth due to this diet would that still be murder? That it survived six weeks and that there are numerous other cases of this same, exact thing with vegans tells me that they probably didn't mean for it to happen.

Some people withhold medicine just about all of us would consider routine from their kids because their faith is so strong and the kids die. Some vegans withhold what just about all of us would consider normal nutrition.

They starved their child to death. We're gonna lock them up until they die.

Guess that's easier than dealing with abortion where you mean for death to occur.

Day before you're born; it's called an abortion.
Day after: It's murder

2 days before; abortion
2 days after; murder

3 days, a week, a month, 2 months?

If the child had died within a few days of birth due to this diet would that still be murder? That it survived six weeks and that there are numerous other cases of this same, exact thing with vegans tells me that they probably didn't mean for it to happen.

Some people withhold medicine just about all of us would consider routine from their kids because their faith is so strong and the kids die. Some vegans withhold what just about all of us would consider normal nutrition.

They starved their child to death. We're gonna lock them up until they die.

Guess that's easier than dealing with abortion where you mean for death to occur.

I'm just a little confused... :confused: In what state(s) is it legal to abort a fetus once it is viable (no longer needing a "host", if you will) other than when it is under extreme circumstance?

...is it the case that insulting me is your way of saying you can't deal with the argument or is it your way of saying I, Larry, am flat wrong and have no point?
:shrug: I am sure there are numerous threads in which you can rally your opinion on abortion. This simply isn't an abortion thread. Nor, IMO, does it carry relevance substantial enough to continue to post statement of debate.

I'm just a little confused... :confused: In what state(s) is it legal to abort a fetus once it is viable (no longer needing a "host", if you will) other than when it is under extreme circumstance?


...all of them until this passed;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act

Seems that about 85% of the 1,300,000 a year are first trimester meaning about about 200,000 a year are later.

Are we gonna debate at what point it is a human being?

:shrug:



...the link I posted?

Day before you're born; it's called an abortion.
Day after: It's murder

2 days before; abortion
2 days after; murder

3 days, a week, a month, 2 months?

If the child had died within a few days of birth due to this diet would that still be murder? That it survived six weeks and that there are numerous other cases of this same, exact thing with vegans tells me that they probably didn't mean for it to happen.

The fact that they had 6 weeks to prevent the problem or correct it once they knew there was a problem makes this even worse. They could see their child becoming a living skeleton, but did NOTHING to correct it. That right there is pathetic.


Some people withhold medicine just about all of us would consider routine from their kids because their faith is so strong and the kids die. Some vegans withhold what just about all of us would consider normal nutrition.

I don't agree with people refusing to vaccinate children either...but neglecting to feed children properly can't be compared to refusing to vaccinate. And it's total BS that they claim they fed that diet because they were vegan. There were other options out there.


They starved their child to death. We're gonna lock them up until they die.

So what's the problem? They killed their baby. What if the kid was 5 years old and they starved it to death? Would you feel differently then?


Guess that's easier than dealing with abortion where you mean for death to occur.


Separate issue. This was not a fetus, it was a baby.

Recap of Larry's feeling's as they pertain to the issue:

Yes, they killed their child.
No, they don't deserve life behind bars.

Fair enough, Larry? :shrug: I would suggest that comparing serial killers to this infant-starving couple might better prove your agenda. IMHO. All victims had opportunity to breathe O2.

I think a baby is considered murdered if the baby has ever taken a breath. If a baby is found wrapped in a plastic bag, as long as that baby never took a breath (and they have ways of knowing), it isn't murder. I'm not sure if that's in ALL states, but I know it's the case in some states. However, if the baby had taken even ONE breath, that's murder.

A fetus never takes a breath, a 6 week old baby does. And while I think abortion is murder too, the law is what it is. So, they murdered the baby and you go to jail for that. The manner of death was cruel, warranting a long sentence.

The fact that they had 6 weeks to prevent the problem or correct it once they knew there was a problem makes this even worse. They could see their child becoming a living skeleton, but did NOTHING to correct it. That right there is pathetic.

I agree. I think they're mentally ill to be able to do that.

I don't agree with people refusing to vaccinate children either...but neglecting to feed children properly can't be compared to refusing to vaccinate. And it's total BS that they claim they fed that diet because they were vegan. There were other options out there.

I agree, but, it was pretty easy to find this nearly exact same case happening before with vegans.




So what's the problem? They killed their baby. What if the kid was 5 years old and they starved it to death? Would you feel differently then?

Wanna tell me how I feel now? All of you are jumping up and down that I somehow support this. All I've said is that I don't see this as being a life in prison offense. They KILLED this kid, 5 weeks or 5 years.

Fetus, baby. What a difference a day makes, huh?

Given what we've been told about this, don't you think this woman is in agony over this? Certainly not happy.

Recap of Larry's feeling's as they pertain to the issue:

Yes, they killed their child.
No, they don't deserve life behind bars.

Fair enough, Larry? :shrug: I would suggest that comparing serial killers to this infant-starving couple might better prove your agenda. IMHO. All victims had opportunity to breathe O2.

Why serial killers? Is that honestly how y'all see them?

Wanna tell me how I feel now?

:shrug: You've already explained that you don't think they deserve life in jail...because the baby was only 6 weeks old and since it's ok to murder your kid 1 day before it's born, it's not that big of a deal to kill your 6 week old baby. :shrug: That's what I've gathered.


All of you are jumping up and down that I somehow support this. All I've said is that I don't see this as being a life in prison offense. They KILLED this kid, 5 weeks or 5 years.

I'm just surprised you don't seem to think they deserve a life sentence...they killed their child.


Given what we've been told about this, don't you think this woman is in agony over this? Certainly not happy.

I most certainly do not think the mother is in agony over it....maybe she's upset about her jail sentence...but not the death of her baby. If she truly cared about that baby she wouldn't have let it starve to death.

:shrug: You've already explained that you don't think they deserve life in jail...because the baby was only 6 weeks old and since it's ok to murder your kid 1 day before it's born, it's not that big of a deal to kill your 6 week old baby. :shrug: That's what I've gathered.



I'm just surprised you don't seem to think they deserve a life sentence...they killed their child.



I most certainly do not think the mother is in agony over it....maybe she's upset about her jail sentence...but not the death of her baby. If she truly cared about that baby she wouldn't have let it starve to death.


...they killed their child yes. BUT they did not chop it's head off, did not throw it in the river. They have a lifestyle that they choose to lead that lead to the death of their child. It is not the same, to me, as cold blooded murder in the same way that backing over your kid in the driveway is not cold blooded, but it is neglect. It's also not the same as what Andrea Yates did.

Y'all see this is crystal clear eyes; murder; life sentence. I keep repeating myself, offering up mitigating facts, anecdotal evidence, the fact that people choose to kill their unborn by the millions but again, born = baby = murder, unborn = not baby = not murder is crystal clear to y'all.

That you are so sure this woman cares not a wit about this may well be what the jury saw. I can allow for that.

i hope they starve to death in jail...get their food poisoned....

or matta fact...just get killed period in prison.

i hope they starve to death in jail...get their food poisoned....

or matta fact...just get killed period in prison.
:jet:

Oh my heavens, look who's back! :jet:

It's a shame you hope somebody dies. They neglected their child and deserve 30 years to life. I agree with Larry, somewhat. I haven't read all the posts on here - but if they knew what they were doing was killing their child, than they should be sentenced to life or death. If not, than you can't really kill someone for supidity/ignorance.

...they killed their child yes. BUT they did not chop it's head off, did not throw it in the river. They have a lifestyle that they choose to lead that lead to the death of their child.

:roflmao: So, as long as they killed their child "nicely" it's ok. Having a certain lifestyle does not mean it's ok to starve your child. Forget the stupid abortion argument. We are talking about a LIVING child.

:jet:

Oh my heavens, look who's back! :jet:

when u taking me to dinner? :howdy:

when u taking me to dinner? :howdy:
:confused:

if any parent leads a lifestyle that risks their childs life indirectly they dont deserve the child or life itself.

i didnt read the whole article but what happened to the babys 6 week checkup after they are born? doctors? friends? family? no one noticed this baby was starving?

:roflmao: So, as long as they killed their child "nicely" it's ok. Having a certain lifestyle does not mean it's ok to starve your child. Forget the stupid abortion argument. We are talking about a LIVING child.
There was no intent or plans. It's manslaughter (unless a doctor/physician had told them they were killing their kid).

:roflmao: So, as long as they killed their child "nicely" it's ok. Having a certain lifestyle does not mean it's ok to starve your child. Forget the stupid abortion argument. We are talking about a LIVING child.



...we're not; we're talking about a dead one and how it got that way. You see this, I think, as the same as cold blooded murder. I don't. I see this as neglect and stupidity.

Do you know the average time served in this country for homicide is about 7 years? I'd like to see violent murderers get the death penalty. I'd like to see kooks like this sterilized. I don't wanna pay to have their dumb asses in jail for life.

And you go ahead and dismiss abortion all you like. Why do you think we value things so little in this culture? Because it's all disposable, including an unborn infant. That affects peoples minds, in my opinion. It affects how they view themselves and the world around them and not in a good way.

We can let it go now; you're in favor of life in jail for them. I'm not.

...we're not; we're talking about a dead one and how it got that way. You see this, I think, as the same as cold blooded murder. I don't. I see this as neglect and stupidity.

Do you know the average time served in this country for homicide is about 7 years? I'd like to see violent murderers get the death penalty. I'd like to see kooks like this sterilized. I don't wanna pay to have their dumb asses in jail for life.

And you go ahead and dismiss abortion all you like. Why do you think we value things so little in this culture? Because it's all disposable, including an unborn infant. That affects peoples minds, in my opinion. It affects how they view themselves and the world around them and not in a good way.

We can let it go now; you're in favor of life in jail for them. I'm not.

:rolleyes: Yes, we can let it go...after I say this. I am not dismissing abortion....you are trying to turn this into an argument about how you think abortion is murder. This discussion is about how the couple killed their baby. This was not a little accident....it wasn't an "oops, I put my 2 year old on a 4 wheeler and it fell over on him" kind of accident. This was a sloooooow death....that poor baby suffered for SIX WEEKS. Those 'parents' were too STUPID and HEARTLESS. If you slowly starve your child to death, you deserve to go to jail for life. This was not an accident. Accidents don't happen slowly over a 6 week period. They neglected their child, and the child died because of it.

:rolleyes: Yes, we can let it go...after I say this. I am not dismissing abortion....you are trying to turn this into an argument about how you think abortion is murder. This discussion is about how the couple killed their baby. This was not a little accident....it wasn't an "oops, I put my 2 year old on a 4 wheeler and it fell over on him" kind of accident. This was a sloooooow death....that poor baby suffered for SIX WEEKS. Those 'parents' were too STUPID and HEARTLESS. If you slowly starve your child to death, you deserve to go to jail for life. This was not an accident. Accidents don't happen slowly over a 6 week period. They neglected their child, and the child died because of it.


...but, it is; a human life is taken, intentionally.

What I am trying to do, to little avail, is look at it in context of who they are, what they did and why. I am not trying to say it was an accident; it was not. They did it on purpose. The question is what is 'it' and what was their purpose?; cold blooded murder? Neglect? Adherence to their beliefs that didn't work out so good for their child? Indifference? Mental illness?

Life in prison is supposed to be reserved for those who intentionally take the life of another. That is what abortion is and we've chosen to tolerate it as a societal matter. That is who we are and what we accept and it does matter. It does influence thinking. It is the textbook case and basis for moral relativity in our world. If they'd had an abortion 6 weeks and 1 day earlier, suddenly, it's OK. It's the law but it is not rational.

If you believe they meant to kill, so be it. Seems the jury did as well. I see ignorance, stupidity and severe neglect, maybe even mental illness.


PS: No matter what you say next, I'll let you have the last word.

:flowers:

PS: No matter what you say next, I'll let you have the last word.

:flowers:



Larry wears girl panties and prances around the house.




















:jet:

Larry wears girl panties and prances around the house.



:jet:



:lmao: :killingme

Muffphphmmppttthhhffpp!!!!