Interesting Article (http://www.pagannews.com/cgi-bin/articles1.pl?350)

:popcorn:

I think it is so sad that those who fight to keep our country free, which is supposed to include freedom to choose ones own religion and not be force fed the mass "duty" religion, have to hide due to ignorance and misinformation. At least the military has finally relented to the use of the pentacle on stones at Arlington. Due to the commercialization of a certain faith over the last 20-30 years, people have been turned off to it. Knowing there has some greater being above us - how else could such natural beauty exist on this globe? - people are turning towards older religions to find meaning. It is a shame that the older religions are not treated with the same respecct as the newer ones (Christianity, Judaism and Islam). Thanks fo the article!!! :flowers:

Thank goodness the Rev. Falwell (blessed be his holy name) isn't around to read this. We'd never hear the end of it!


If Paganism becomes a main stream religion, I will no longer be allowed to use my favorite wintertime phrase " Its colder than a witches tit!" Not PC at all!

Heres to the Wiccans!
My Celtic Jeweler (http://www.mycelticjeweler.com/)

I think it is so sad that those who fight to keep our country free, which is supposed to include freedom to choose ones own religion and not be force fed the mass "duty" religion, have to hide due to ignorance and misinformation. At least the military has finally relented to the use of the pentacle on stones at Arlington. Due to the commercialization of a certain faith over the last 20-30 years, people have been turned off to it. Knowing there has some greater being above us - how else could such natural beauty exist on this globe? - people are turning towards older religions to find meaning. It is a shame that the older religions are not treated with the same respecct as the newer ones (Christianity, Judaism and Islam). Thanks fo the article!!! :flowers:

I spent several years in military and was never "force fed" any religion. :duh: And your making it sound like the US Navy is hunting down Wiccans like the Nazis hunted down the Jews, which is absurd. I think the US military tries to accomodate all religions as much as humanly possible. I don't see what the huge issue is?

[QUOTE=Christy]I spent several years in military and was never "force fed" any religion. I think the US military tries to accomodate all religions as much as humanly possible./QUOTE]

I agree with that!

Interesting Article (http://www.pagannews.com/cgi-bin/articles1.pl?350) :whistle: I figure it reflects the same condition and probably the same percentage as in the civilian population. :larry:

I spent several years in military and was never "force fed" any religion.

Except at every military function. Every function somehow includes a christian invocation, bennediction,or prayer.

Except at every military function. Every function somehow includes a christian invocation, bennediction,or prayer.

Again, what is the big deal? The vast majority of military personnel subscribe to Christian beliefs. Are you saying that since the minority of members don't, it should be stopped? I find it ironic that those who scream the loudest about not having their beliefs recognized or respected, are the first to want to squash other's rights to their beliefs.

And again, I stand by my opinion that the military does their best to accomodate all recognized religions, and whenever the Wiccans become the majority in the military, then all of the Christians will have to suck it up and listen to a Pagan before every military function.

Except at every military function. Every function somehow includes a christian invocation, bennediction,or prayer.

That is nowhere near the truth. The vast majority of functions do not include any reference to religion at all. For you to say "every function" is just crap.

That is nowhere near the truth. The vast majority of functions do not include any reference to religion at all. For you to say "every function" is just crap.

I'd have to agree. I grew up a Navy brat. And while some functions did begin with a prayer or bendiction,(especially aboard ship) I attended plenty that didn't.

Except at every military function. Every function somehow includes a christian invocation, bennediction,or prayer.

Since you felt the need to leave me karma calling me "sheep", please explain yourself. Are you saying I'm wrong? Are you saying I'm a follower incapable of independent thought? Are you calling me a Christian, as in a member of the flock? What do you mean?

I'm a veteran and have worked with the military for more than 22 years. I have seen some military functions that included a prayer, but the vast majority did not. Since you claimed the every function does have a prayer, and I know that not to be true, you are obviously distorting the truth.

Except at every military function. Every function somehow includes a christian invocation, bennediction,or prayer.
So why not do what 90% of the world's practicing pagans do when faced with something like that... simply ignore it!

At Thanksgiving when my grandparents insist on praying to God and thanking him for the meal, I don't bow my head because I will not pray to their God. The same goes at Christmas. Am I defianant about it? Do I make a big deal about it? No. I simply do not bow my head in prayer when they begin to pray. They respect my right to not share in their religious belief and I respect their right to practice theirs.

And while I'm at it (as I sat here thinking and reading the article)...

What the hell are wiccans doing in the Navy, or any armed forces for that matter?

The Wiccan Creed, which is the one and only law/rule in wiccanism, is stated as follows:
"Bide the Wiccan law ye must
In perfect love, in perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
And ye harm none, do as ye will.
And ever mind the rule of three:
And what ye sends out comes back to thee.
Follow this with mind and heart,
And merry ye meet, and merry ye part."

Basically there are two things in that "law" that would make it pretty clear that a military career is not the best choice for a wiccan...

"As long as ye harm none, do as ye will" - That means, as long as it's hurting no one, go ahead and do it. This includes harm to yourself, btw. I think that, personally, shooting a gun at someone with the intent to kill or maim or injure is willfully doing harm... and willfully doing harm (and even unintentionally doing harm) goes against the Wiccan Rede.

"And ever mind the rule of three: what ye sends out comes back to thee." - Again, killing someone comes back to you threefold. Plotting against someone, no matter in who's name it is and for what purpose, comes back to you threefold. Basically anything bad you do comes back threefold... but anything good you do comes back threefold as well.

I don't know, just my 4 cents there on that.

Since you felt the need to leave me karma calling me "sheep", please explain yourself. Are you saying I'm wrong? Are you saying I'm a follower incapable of independent thought? Are you calling me a Christian, as in a member of the flock? What do you mean?



With what you sent me...08-25-2007 11:34 PM Retarded freak... I'm going to go with option "B" from above.

What the hell are wiccans doing in the Navy, or any armed forces for that matter?


Kris, if that's the case, you've just taken this thread 360 degrees around and illustrated that most everyone has the same beliefs. We just all look at it from different points of view. Take your arguement from the wiccan creed and compare it to the ten commandments. So I'll rephrase your question for you...What the hell is anyone who believes in a religion (wiccan/christian/muslim/jew/whateverelse) doing in the military?

What the hell are wiccans doing in the Navy, or any armed forces for that matter?

The Wiccan Creed,

Basically there are two things in that "law" that would make it pretty clear that a military career is not the best choice for a wiccan... :whistle: That does take the prize,

the witches know that murder and wars of aggression are wrong but Christians will do it. :popcorn:

Kris, if that's the case, you've just taken this thread 360 degrees around and illustrated that most everyone has the same beliefs. We just all look at it from different points of view. Take your arguement from the wiccan creed and compare it to the ten commandments. So I'll rephrase your question for you...What the hell is anyone who believes in a religion (wiccan/christian/muslim/jew/whateverelse) doing in the military?
It's funny you mention that similarity... but keep in mind it is just that, a similarity.

If you do the research, you'll find that when Christianity was taking over the world and wars were being fought in it's name, the Christians used that same arguement. Christmas is right around the same time as the pagan Yule. Easter is around the same time as another Pagan holiday. It's a little coincidental that Jesus was born on one and died on the other. And why do you think bunnies are associated with Easter? It's for the fertility, which was key in the pagan festival.

But the biggest difference between the two in terms of the "law" and the "ten commandments" is that the commandments say "Do unto others as you would have then do unto you." Basically play nice with other people if you want them to play nice with you. The wiccan rede of "And ye harm none, do as ye will" is about 100 times MORE strict than even the strictest christian code. "And ye harm NONE...", that includes yourself. Anything that causes harm, mentally or physically, to anyone is to be avoided at all costs due to the rule of three... what you put out there comes back threefold (which is very similar to the christian belief of "You reap what you sow" but again, promises a much harsher payback).

And I agree with you on the "What the hell is anyone doing in the military" question... I'm pretty anti-military, and I realize that A: Saying that here is bound to give me loads of red karma and B: I live in the wrong part of the country to be anti-military. But, based on my religous beliefs and the very belief that "And ye harm none, do as ye will", it's pretty easy to see why I'm anti-military.

With what you sent me...08-25-2007 11:34 PM Retarded freak... I'm going to go with option "B" from above.

I see. I pointed out that your facts were false. You say that makes me incapable of independent thought. How enlightened of you.

I'm pretty anti-military, and I realize that A: Saying that here is bound to give me loads of red karma and B: I live in the wrong part of the country to be anti-military. But, based on my religous beliefs and the very belief that "And ye harm none, do as ye will", it's pretty easy to see why I'm anti-military.You sure as hell do. There are plenty of wonderful people in the military that haven't hurt a soul. In fact, some of the most admirable people I know are in the military. It takes a special person to sacrifice their wants for the greater good of their country, versus sitting on their soapbox complaining while doing nothing to change things.

You sure as hell do. There are plenty of wonderful people in the military that haven't hurt a soul. In fact, some of the most admirable people I know are in the military. It takes a special person to sacrifice their wants for the greater good of their country, versus sitting on their soapbox complaining while doing nothing to change things.
Perhaps they haven't hurt a person physically, but is plotting to hurt someone not also hurting someone indirectly?

On a mental level I understand the military, I understand war, I understand that it was war which brought America it's freedoms and therefore I understand the greater good as the driving force behind the military.

On a spiritual level, however, I'm very much against the tactics used by the military and I don't believe that we should persecute people in our own country for leveling a gun at someone and firing when we don't persecute those who do it in the name of America. How can they be two different things? Are they both not killers? And if they are indeed attempting to harm someone, are they seeking to have someone harm them?

Perhaps they haven't hurt a person physically, but is plotting to hurt someone not also hurting someone indirectly?

On a mental level I understand the military, I understand war, I understand that it was war which brought America it's freedoms and therefore I understand the greater good as the driving force behind the military.

On a spiritual level, however, I'm very much against the tactics used by the military and I don't believe that we should persecute people in our own country for leveling a gun at someone and firing when we don't persecute those who do it in the name of America. How can they be two different things? Are they both not killers? And if they are indeed attempting to harm someone, are they seeking to have someone harm them?
Crack kills

Perhaps they haven't hurt a person physically, but is plotting to hurt someone not also hurting someone indirectly?

On a mental level I understand the military, I understand war, I understand that it was war which brought America it's freedoms and therefore I understand the greater good as the driving force behind the military.

On a spiritual level, however, I'm very much against the tactics used by the military and I don't believe that we should persecute people in our own country for leveling a gun at someone and firing when we don't persecute those who do it in the name of America. How can they be two different things? Are they both not killers? And if they are indeed attempting to harm someone, are they seeking to have someone harm them?
So you have a problem with the small percentage of service members who are involved in the war? Or do you take issue with the Mess Specialist who's serving mashed potatoes in Norfolk as well? Regarding the former: spend some time in a military rehabilitation hospital with 19 year old amputees and explain to them why they deserve to be there. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as am I. I have far more respect for that 19 year old than I will ever have for someone who can't find their own happiness and must resort to complaints about a world they aren't active in changing.

So you have a problem with the small percentage of service members who are involved in the war? Or do you take issue with the Mess Specialist who's serving mashed potatoes in Norfolk as well? Regarding the former: spend some time in a military rehabilitation hospital with 19 year old amputees and explain to them why they deserve to be there. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as am I. I have far more respect for that 19 year old than I will ever have for someone who can't find their own happiness and must resort to complaints about a world they aren't active in changing.
And by your response I take it to mean that you seem to think I'm incapable of finding my own happiness and that I don't seek to change the world around me?

If you want to get in to a pissing match on that regard, we absolutely can, however I think it's best if we just simply leave at you don't know anything about me and my life and how I choose to live it as I know nothing of yours.

And by your response I take it to mean that you seem to think I'm incapable of finding my own happiness and that I don't seek to change the world around me?

Actually, no. It was an example of a gross interpretation based on a minimum amount of information. If we all based our opinion of someone or something on the small amount on information that we have, we'd be doing ourselves a disservice by making broad assumptions. Not fun is it? I see people claiming an anti-military stance when they clearly are not fully informed as to how the military actually operates. Not everyone in the military is "the bad guy".

As far as getting into a pissing match, I have nothing to prove to anyone, nor do I care for anyone to prove anything to me.

Actually, no. It was an example of a gross interpretation based on a minimum amount of information. If we all based our opinion of someone or something on the small amount on information that we have, we'd be doing ourselves a disservice by making broad assumptions. Not fun is it? I see people claiming an anti-military stance when they clearly are not fully informed as to how the military actually operates. Not everyone in the military is "the bad guy".

As far as getting into a pissing match, I have nothing to prove to anyone, nor do I care for anyone to prove anything to me.
I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap.

Perhaps they haven't hurt a person physically, but is plotting to hurt someone not also hurting someone indirectly?

On a mental level I understand the military, I understand war, I understand that it was war which brought America it's freedoms and therefore I understand the greater good as the driving force behind the military.

On a spiritual level, however, I'm very much against the tactics used by the military and I don't believe that we should persecute people in our own country for leveling a gun at someone and firing when we don't persecute those who do it in the name of America. How can they be two different things? Are they both not killers? And if they are indeed attempting to harm someone, are they seeking to have someone harm them?

If you're so anti military, tell me, who do you think should protect our country? On a "spiritual" level I am anti war, yes, and I don't agree with us being in Iraq. But I support our troops 100%.

My father and brother are both military. (Dad's retired) My brother is in Iraq serving his country right now and sincerely believes in what he's doing and that it is good.

Fellow Pagan or not, spiritual belief or not, I kinda resent you calling them killers.:ohwell: He is following orders given to him buy a country he loves and doing what he believes is right. And if their shooting at him, I hope with all my heart he's shooting them right back.

I understand the law of return and all...but MY rede (I am not Wiccan) "If it harms me, harm back at will."

If you're so anti military, tell me, who do you think should protect our country? On a "spiritual" level I am anti war, yes, and I don't agree with us being in Iraq. But I support our troops 100%.

My father and brother are both military. (Dad's retired) My brother is in Iraq serving his country right now and sincerely believes in what he's doing and that it is good.

Fellow Pagan or not, spiritual belief or not, I kinda resent you calling them killers.:ohwell: He is following orders given to him buy a country he loves and doing what he believes is right. And if their shooting at him, I hope with all my heart he's shooting them right back.

I understand the law of return and all...but MY rede (I am not Wiccan) "If it harms me, harm back at will."
I'm sorry if I've offended... but it simply my personal belief.

I'm sure throughout history everyone has always thought they were doing right at the time they were doing it. Everyone has to have something they strongly believe in. Some people find it in religion, some people find it in the military, others find it in other spiritual quests.

I have no issue with protecting the country. It's much the same as a lioness protecting her cubs. What I have issues with in regards to the military, and quite possibly the source of my "anti-military" views is when excessive force is used. An animal protects their domain only when it's threatened and doesn't go any further than necessary to defend it. I feel we, as a country, should do much the same.

I'm sorry if I've offended... but it simply my personal belief.

I'm sure throughout history everyone has always thought they were doing right at the time they were doing it. Everyone has to have something they strongly believe in. Some people find it in religion, some people find it in the military, others find it in other spiritual quests.

I have no issue with protecting the country. It's much the same as a lioness protecting her cubs. What I have issues with in regards to the military, and quite possibly the source of my "anti-military" views is when excessive force is used. An animal protects their domain only when it's threatened and doesn't go any further than necessary to defend it. I feel we, as a country, should do much the same.

You did not offend me. Opinions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one. :lol: I'm just saying... our boys in Iraq are following orders and I would not call them "killers."

I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap.
And there you have it. You have absolutely no knowledge of how the military works. I'm done. :peace:

I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap. As an American and a taxpayer, you are just as "guilty" as anyone in the military. You have hired these brave people to do your bidding for you. For you to distance youself is dishonest. You can't say that the guy that cooks the food is guilty, but you who pays for the food is not.

As an American and a taxpayer, you are just as "guilty" as anyone in the military. You have hired these brave people to do your bidding for you. For you to distance youself is dishonest. You can't say that the guy that cooks the food is guilty, but you who pays for the food is not.
That's food for thought and nausea inducing... thank you for that!

As an American and a taxpayer, you are just as "guilty" as anyone in the military. You have hired these brave people to do your bidding for you. For you to distance youself is dishonest. You can't say that the guy that cooks the food is guilty, but you who pays for the food is not.

Well said.

Well said. :whistle: It was not well said at all.

The taxes are not some free given gift to the gov,

and all tax payers are not to blame for the midguided war mongering of the Bush administration.

And even those of us that agreed with Bush in the first place does not mean we share the guilt of Bush trampling on the Geneva Convention and Bush's mismanagement of those wars.

The people in the military need to consult their own conscience before following unjust and immoral orders.
:popcorn:

It was not well said at all.

Just knowing that you disagree with me gives me the satisfaction of knowing that I am right. Since your whole existence is based on dishonesty, anything you disagree with is by default true.

Just knowing that you disagree with me gives me the satisfaction of knowing that I am right. Since your whole existence is based on dishonesty, anything you disagree with is by default true.
Well said or not... it still makes me sick to my stomach that, by being an honest American citizen who pays her taxes (or in this case, gets a huge return every year) and not abusing the system despite being a single mother, I am still supporting the military and in turn this war of terror and the karmic retributions from it all.

Seriously... I truly appreciate how horrified at myself your point and revelation has made me.

Well said or not... it still makes me sick to my stomach that, by being an honest American citizen who pays her taxes (or in this case, gets a huge return every year) and not abusing the system despite being a single mother, I am still supporting the military and in turn this war of terror and the karmic retributions from it all.

Seriously... I truly appreciate how horrified at myself your point and revelation has made me.
If you get EIC you can rest your mind comfortably that you do not support the military because you draw more from the government than you pay in.

Well said or not... it still makes me sick to my stomach that, by being an honest American citizen who pays her taxes (or in this case, gets a huge return every year) and not abusing the system despite being a single mother, I am still supporting the military and in turn this war of terror and the karmic retributions from it all.

Seriously... I truly appreciate how horrified at myself your point and revelation has made me.

Rather than being repulsed by war, you could understand that it is human nature. As every society in history has proven, humans are made to kill each other. Whether you believe that God, Mother Earth, Buddah, Allah, or evolution created us, we are what we are. Denying our fundamental nature is just as much an affront to nature as war is.

You can be repulsed by being an American if you'd like, but recognize that your repulsion is misplaced. If you must be repulsed, be aware that the legitimate object of your revulsion should be the human race. The nations, flags, and reasons may change, but the end result is the same. Humans fight wars. We always have, and always will.

Rather than being repulsed by war, you could understand that it is human nature. As every society in history has proven, humans are made to kill each other. Whether you believe that God, Mother Earth, Buddah, Allah, or evolution created us, we are what we are. Denying our fundamental nature is just as much an affront to nature as war is.

You can be repulsed by being an American if you'd like, but recognize that your repulsion is misplaced. If you must be repulsed, be aware that the legitimate object of your revulsion should be the human race. The nations, flags, and reasons may change, but the end result is the same. Humans fight wars. We always have, and always will.
Human nature is to destroy what it does not understand. I disagree that humans were made to kill each other.

There are people out there who will do whatever it takes to reach their end goal, and they don't care who stands in their way. It's when those people get in to power positions that war occurs.

Interesting Article (http://www.pagannews.com/cgi-bin/articles1.pl?350)
As a 14 yr second class he doesnt have much longer to worry about the what happens in the navy...

A couple years ago I was told there was one muslim "chaplain" in the entire navy. And that was told to me by a senior chaplain. But it could be different by now...

I couldnt care less what kind of religion you practice as long as it doesnt affect your work.

Human nature is to destroy what it does not understand. I disagree that humans were made to kill each other.

There are people out there who will do whatever it takes to reach their end goal, and they don't care who stands in their way. It's when those people get in to power positions that war occurs.

I'd have to say that you have created a very myopic existence for yourself, as do most folks who latch blindly on to a "cause". Whether that cause be a religion or simply an idea of how they wish the world to be.

You have that luxury due to the Country that you were fortunate enough to be born in. That country would not exist if not for lots of killing, and dare I say WAR . :faint:

Let me ask you this. If you were in charge, Queen of the United States, how would you yield your power? Actually, let's even step that down. You're the Queen of your home, and your neighbor's decide they hate you and your family. First they start off egging your house, then they progress to throwing rocks through your windows, then they just go all out and light your house on fire while you're in bed sleeping? You manage to survive but your kids are burned up and your husband is dead? Mind you, you are the Queen, the top dog, without the luxury of calling the police to sort it all out. What would you do?

You sure as hell do. There are plenty of wonderful people in the military that haven't hurt a soul. In fact, some of the most admirable people I know are in the military. It takes a special person to sacrifice their wants for the greater good of their country, versus sitting on their soapbox complaining while doing nothing to change things.

Amen to that. Just consider where we would be as a country if we didn't have the military. First and foremost, none of us would have the right to be on the computer and make comments like this, not to mention practice, or in some cases, not practice the religion that we desire to practice.

I'd have to say that you have created a very myopic existence for yourself, as do most folks who latch blindly on to a "cause". Whether that cause be a religion or simply an idea of how they wish the world to be.

You have that luxury due to the Country that you were fortunate enough to be born in. That country would not exist if not for lots of killing, and dare I say WAR . :faint:

Let me ask you this. If you were in charge, Queen of the United States, how would you yield your power? Actually, let's even step that down. You're the Queen of your home, and your neighbor's decide they hate you and your family. First they start off egging your house, then they progress to throwing rocks through your windows, then they just go all out and light your house on fire while you're in bed sleeping? You manage to survive but your kids are burned up and your husband is dead? Mind you, you are the Queen, the top dog, without the luxury of calling the police to sort it all out. What would you do?
They could burn my husband if they so desired... because I don't have one nor do I want one.

But in that scenerio I guess I'd like to figure out why it is they decided they suddenly hated me after we'd been neighbors for quite some time. Once I figured out why that was, I'd come up with a plan of attack, so to speak... and it would never progress to burning down my house.

But in that scenerio I guess I'd like to figure out why it is they decided they suddenly hated me after we'd been neighbors for quite some time.
Maybe they just now got to know you.

I find anti-Americanism fascinating, especially among Americans. Because you know, Kris, that there's a whole world out there that you can escape to and not have to be a party to the military industrial complex.

I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap.

I have to echo the other reasonable minds in this discussion and say that you are grabbing at straws here. People join the military for a variety of reasons, usually because it is a means to an end that they otherwise do not have access to or limited access to.

Here are some things to consider, or not, as is your wont:

"Military service is the first full-time job for most of them."

"Many enlisted personnel are drawn to the benefits offered by the armed forces that allow them to obtain funding for college. In recent years, incentives to join the military have increased, providing more of the enlisted recruits with additional resources to finance their education."

"Like their peers in 1999 and 2003, recruits in 2004 and 2005 came primarily from middle-class areas... The poorest areas continue to be underrep#resented, while middle-class areas are overrepre#sented. Although the richest income brackets are underrepresented"

"While blacks continue to be overrepre#sented, their representation has decreased during the wartime years and is much closer to being pro#portional in 2005 than it was in 2003."

Wartime recruits come more from rural areas, particularly from the South. However, many states outside of the South, such as Alaska and Montana, continue to have strong proportional representa#tion. Areas classified as entirely urban are strongly underrepresented compared to areas with increased rural concentrations, all of which were overrepresented."

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm

This calls for an inspirational poster!

But in that scenerio I guess I'd like to figure out why it is they decided they suddenly hated me after we'd been neighbors for quite some time. Once I figured out why that was, I'd come up with a plan of attack, so to speak... and it would never progress to burning down my house.

Okay, so you go over and find out that they hate you because you're not Christian and until you repent and become Christian they flat out tell you that they will kill you and all family and all of your friends?

And while I'm at it (as I sat here thinking and reading the article)...

What the hell are wiccans doing in the Navy, or any armed forces for that matter?

The Wiccan Creed, which is the one and only law/rule in wiccanism, is stated as follows:
"Bide the Wiccan law ye must
In perfect love, in perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
And ye harm none, do as ye will.
And ever mind the rule of three:
And what ye sends out comes back to thee.
Follow this with mind and heart,
And merry ye meet, and merry ye part."

Basically there are two things in that "law" that would make it pretty clear that a military career is not the best choice for a wiccan...

"As long as ye harm none, do as ye will" - That means, as long as it's hurting no one, go ahead and do it. This includes harm to yourself, btw. I think that, personally, shooting a gun at someone with the intent to kill or maim or injure is willfully doing harm... and willfully doing harm (and even unintentionally doing harm) goes against the Wiccan Rede.

"And ever mind the rule of three: what ye sends out comes back to thee." - Again, killing someone comes back to you threefold. Plotting against someone, no matter in who's name it is and for what purpose, comes back to you threefold. Basically anything bad you do comes back threefold... but anything good you do comes back threefold as well.

I don't know, just my 4 cents there on that.

Corpsman, doctors, dentists, nurses, medics, ambulance drivers...etc. Just as Quakers have a belief in harming none and helping others and have served in the US military in those positions. Don't assume or presume that every person that joins the military goes around shooting, killing, maiming, pillaging, etc. There are plenty of jobs in the military that do not involve violence.

Maybe they just now got to know you.

I find anti-Americanism fascinating, especially among Americans. Because you know, Kris, that there's a whole world out there that you can escape to and not have to be a party to the military industrial complex.
When did anti-military become anti-american? I still like baseball and apple pie and I still hold on to the American Dream...

It's a difference of opinion, a different point of view. I realize this is a heavily military populated area and my ideas and opinions may not be well received here.

Okay, so you go over and find out that they hate you because you're not Christian and until you repent and become Christian they flat out tell you that they will kill you and all family and all of your friends?
Well that's a whole other can of worms, isn't it... that would actually go back to my claim that christianity has started more wars than any other belief.

Well that's a whole other can of worms, isn't it... that would actually go back to my claim that christianity has started more wars than any other belief.

:duh: You really aren't getting my point are you?

The fact of the matter is, you can hold on to your beliefs, and more than likely never be in the position to re-evaluate that stance because it won't be presented to you due to the "killing machine" in this Country that keeps it from getting to your doorstep.

When did anti-military become anti-american? I still like baseball and apple pie and I still hold on to the American Dream... And how do you think you get to enjoy baseball, apple pie and freedom of worship? It sure isn't fought for by the dayum tooth fairy. You're anti-military, but you want to enjoy all the freedoms that this country has to offer without anyone fighting for them.....:banghead:

"The hippies had in mind something that they wanted, and were calling it "freedom," but in the final analysis "freedom" is a purely negative goal. It just says something is bad. Hippies weren't really offering any alternatives other than colorful short-term ones, and some of these were looking more and more like pure degeneracy. Degeneracy can be fun but it's hard to keep up as a serious lifetime occupation."

Author: Robert Pirsig

But the biggest difference between the two in terms of the "law" and the "ten commandments" is that the commandments say "Do unto others as you would have then do unto you." I know the Ten Commandments by heart and don't remember one like that. :lol:

When did anti-military become anti-american? I still like baseball and apple pie and I still hold on to the American Dream...

It's a difference of opinion, a different point of view. I realize this is a heavily military populated area and my ideas and opinions may not be well received here.
So in a nut shell ; You like to suck the teat of liberty and freedom as long as you don't get your hands messy in any of the unsavory stuff that supplies that teat?

When did anti-military become anti-american? I still like baseball and apple pie and I still hold on to the American Dream...

It's a difference of opinion, a different point of view. I realize this is a heavily military populated area and my ideas and opinions may not be well received here.


Explain how you can embrace the American Ideals and Freedom without embracing those people and institutions which defend and fight for them?

Anti-military??? Your damn right that is anti-American. Get rid of the military and next thing you know you will have someone with a gun to your head reciting the Koran, and you can kiss your religous freedom good-bye. The analogy may be extreme...but not to far from the truth. :larry:

Explain how you can embrace the American Ideals and Freedom without embracing those people and institutions which defend and fight for them?

Anti-military??? Your damn right that is anti-American. Get rid of the military and next thing you know you will have someone with a gun to your head reciting the Koran, and you can kiss your religous freedom good-bye. The analogy may be extreme...but not to far from the truth. :larry:Not far from the truth at all. :yay:

my claim that christianity has started more wars than any other belief. Could you back this up? You used the 100 years war in a previous post, but you didn't ever explain how two christian nations fighting over property can be blamed on christianity.

Just FYI, I am not christian, and am not trying to blindly defend christianity. I just don't like people throwing out false claims condemning any religion.

Because you know, Kris, that there's a whole world out there that you can escape to and not have to be a party to the military industrial complex. Actually, I don't believe there is anywhere on earth she could do this. There is a military industrial complex of some sort in every country, whether that be making nukes or carving spearheads. She's burying her head in the sand and wishing that humans were not human.

Actually, I don't believe there is anywhere on earth she could do this. There is a military industrial complex of some sort in every country, whether that be making nukes or carving spearheads. She's burying her head in the sand and wishing that humans were not human.


She can hop her a$$ a ride to Antarctica! :doh: Doh....That's right...it is our military aircraft (albeit USAF :lmao: ) that provides the transportation to there. Perhaps the Artic Circle is a better fit. :whistle:

She can hop her a$$ a ride to Antarctica! :doh: Doh....That's right...it is our military aircraft (albeit USAF :lmao: ) that provides the transportation to there. Perhaps the Artic Circle is a better fit. :whistle: The Russian, Canadian, and Danish military are all claiming ownership. Our subs go there as well. Maybe Gilligans island?

The Russian, Canadian, and Danish military are all claiming ownership. Our subs go there as well. Maybe Gilligans island?


:whistle: Sounds good! Notice how my initial question was never answered!

What about the Crusades?

From Wikipedia "The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by Christians during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom.[1] "

What about the Crusades?

From Wikipedia "The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by Christians during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom.[1] "
my claim that christianity has started more wars than any other belief.
You are using something that happened 800 years ago to justify your claim? Do you have anything with substance to back your statement?

I understand that you don't like christians and you feel you beliefs are superior, but you are definitely showing yourself to be a kook.

You are using something that happened 800 years ago to justify your claim? Do you have anything with substance to back your statement?

I understand that you don't like christians and you feel you beliefs are superior, but you are definitely showing yourself to be a kook.
Weren't the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians pagans, and didn't they do their fair share of slaying each other?

Weren't the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians pagans, and didn't they do their fair share of slaying each other?

Not to mention the Celts, they were waging war with Rome and Greece before Christ was even born.

Weren't the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians pagans, and didn't they do their fair share of slaying each other?
Those were just all pre-Christians living up to their future reputation.

What about the Crusades?

From Wikipedia "The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by Christians during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom.[1] "
I find it annoying when anti-Christian zealots cite the Crusades without really knowing anything about them.

For Arguments sake' let say I am a Christian purely as a fall back plan. (not my true feelings...just trying to get in touch with that "Athiest" side) Is there an afterlife??? If I am a Christian now, and their is really no God, then guess what...I am still just a dead person...no harm, no foul! BUT...if I am an Athiest / Wiccan, Pagan, etc, and I believe their is no God....well...I'd better be right!

The Wiccan Creed, which is the one and only law/rule in wiccanism, is stated as follows:
"Bide the Wiccan law ye must
In perfect love, in perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
And ye harm none, do as ye will.
And ever mind the rule of three:
And what ye sends out comes back to thee.
Follow this with mind and heart,
And merry ye meet, and merry ye part."
Wow, that's gay.

She can hop her a$$ a ride to Antarctica! :doh: Doh....That's right...it is our military aircraft (albeit USAF :lmao: ) that provides the transportation to there. Perhaps the Artic Circle is a better fit. :whistle:1959 - 1999 The US Navy Flew Operation Deepfreeze to the Antarctic. After that the Air National Guard tried to perform the same Operation. Didn't quite meet the same standards or schedule.

1959 - 1999 The US Navy Flew Operation Deepfreeze to the Antarctic. After that the Air National Guard tried to perform the same Operation. Didn't quite meet the same standards or schedule.


Party on Puckered Penguins! (bahhh to the PC Ice Pirates!)
Are you OAE?

Party on Puckered Penguins! (bahhh to the PC Ice Pirates!)
Are you OAE?Yep.

Yep.



Meee TOOOOO! :howdy:

Ahhh, the good old days......



I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap.



Are you Janet Napolitano? You hate veterans for being veterans?

"Like their peers in 1999 and 2003, recruits in 2004 and 2005 came primarily from middle-class areas... The poorest areas continue to be underrep#resented, while middle-class areas are overrepre#sented. Although the richest income brackets are underrepresented"



I can give you the scoop on that one..

I've lived it, having been a successful recruiter in NH when the economy was booming and unemployment being nil, to being mediocre to poor in a poor area of PA where unemployment was high, and there were no industries or companies to support the local population.

I can give you the scoop on that one..

I've lived it, having been a successful recruiter in NH when the economy was booming and unemployment being nil, to being mediocre to poor in a poor area of PA where unemployment was high, and there were no industries or companies to support the local population.i'm curious what your take is, as someone who's been involved in it yourself, as to the reason for this.

The upper income bracket is pretty easy to discern, but what is your take on the under-representation in the lower income brackets? (I'll bet your take is the same as mine, though you have first hand experience in figuring out why and I do not.)

i'm curious what your take is, as someone who's been involved in it yourself, as to the reason for this.

The upper income bracket is pretty easy to discern, but what is your take on the under-representation in the lower income brackets? (I'll bet your take is the same as mine, though you have first hand experience in figuring out why and I do not.)

I went from recruiting in Southern NH in the mid 90's (booming economy) and the kids didn't want to work where Dad and Mom worked.. didn't want the office hours, the commute.. etc.. Not hard to find kids looking for something a little more exciting that what mom and dad did. Also had a good go at getting kids from what would at least APPEAR to be high income bracket housesholds.. Mercedes in front of the mansion types.. The parents were married to their lifestyle, no money saved to pay for Jr's college, and too much income to qualify for any aid.. Army College Fund was actually attractive, that and, believe it or not. many rich(er) parents wanted their kids to go out on their own and DO something before inheriting or working for dad's company.

Now, we move to NW PA, totally failed economy. The richest (?) people in town were the teachers, the nicest neighborhood was called teachers row. Average HOUSEHOLD (not individual) income was $29060 in 2000 (Nationwide avg $42,000 IN 2000).

Kids grew up on welfare, or they knew families and had friends whose parents were on welfare and stayed at home all day. They knew they could do the same and not have to do a thing to get it. Up there I even competed with WAL-MART of all places. We had a new Wal-Mart opening up, and a big objection to joining the Army was.. "I'm waiting for Wal-Mart to come to town, and I'll get a job there".. AND then what? Entire neighborhoods there of section 8 housing.. I've never seen nastier living conditions in my life.. the smellist nastiest houses, kids growing to adults that had NO idea how to care for themselves, and of course they had their own welfare kids..

I delivered Pizza part time up there.. and there were houses I would NOT step foot into to get out of freezing rain.. while they counted their pennies to give me EXACTLY what was due.. or give me $5 for their $4.98 bill and in their best Donald Trump Voice.. "Keep the Change!" You learned where the teachers lived quick and JUMPED on those deliveries.

(I have an story about the teachers too.. would have been funny if it wasn't ridiculously sad)

NH there was still a sense of Duty, Patriotism.. Saw it a lot, and it came down to which service got to these young men and women first. PA.. Not so much. The gov't was the CAUSE of all their problems.. yet they were sucking the gov't teat EVERY day of their lives.

I got to PA thinking "Man, I'm going to be a hero.. I came from a TOUGH market in NH to this? They'll be lining up to get the hell out of here!!" I've never been so wrong.

I went from recruiting in Southern NH in the mid 90's (booming economy) and the kids didn't want to work where Dad and Mom worked.. didn't want the office hours, the commute.. etc.. Not hard to find kids looking for something a little more exciting that what mom and dad did. Also had a good go at getting kids from what would at least APPEAR to be high income bracket housesholds.. Mercedes in front of the mansion types.. The parents were married to their lifestyle, no money saved to pay for Jr's college, and too much income to qualify for any aid.. Army College Fund was actually attractive, that and, believe it or not. many rich(er) parents wanted their kids to go out on their own and DO something before inheriting or working for dad's company.

Now, we move to NW PA, totally failed economy. The richest (?) people in town were the teachers, the nicest neighborhood was called teachers row. Average HOUSEHOLD (not individual) income was $29060 in 2000 (Nationwide avg $42,000 IN 2000).

Kids grew up on welfare, or they knew families and had friends whose parents were on welfare and stayed at home all day. They knew they could do the same and not have to do a thing to get it. Up there I even competed with WAL-MART of all places. We had a new Wal-Mart opening up, and a big objection to joining the Army was.. "I'm waiting for Wal-Mart to come to town, and I'll get a job there".. AND then what? Entire neighborhoods there of section 8 housing.. I've never seen nastier living conditions in my life.. the smellist nastiest houses, kids growing to adults that had NO idea how to care for themselves, and of course they had their own welfare kids..

I delivered Pizza part time up there.. and there were houses I would NOT step foot into to get out of freezing rain.. while they counted their pennies to give me EXACTLY what was due.. or give me $5 for their $4.98 bill and in their best Donald Trump Voice.. "Keep the Change!" You learned where the teachers lived quick and JUMPED on those deliveries.

(I have an story about the teachers too.. would have been funny if it wasn't ridiculously sad)

NH there was still a sense of Duty, Patriotism.. Saw it a lot, and it came down to which service got to these young men and women first. PA.. Not so much. The gov't was the CAUSE of all their problems.. yet they were sucking the gov't teat EVERY day of their lives.

I got to PA thinking "Man, I'm going to be a hero.. I came from a TOUGH market in NH to this? They'll be lining up to get the hell out of here!!" I've never been so wrong.Everything you said here makes a lot of sense.

I disagree... everyone in the military is the "bad guy" on a spiritual level. The 19 year old down in the mess hall is enrolled himself in to a killing machine. How is that not being the "bad guy"? That 19 year old in the mess hall could be working on becoming an active member on the front, perhaps he just wanted to see what it was all about before he took the leap.

Perhaps they haven't hurt a person physically, but is plotting to hurt someone not also hurting someone indirectly?

On a mental level I understand the military, I understand war, I understand that it was war which brought America it's freedoms and therefore I understand the greater good as the driving force behind the military.

On a spiritual level, however, I'm very much against the tactics used by the military and I don't believe that we should persecute people in our own country for leveling a gun at someone and firing when we don't persecute those who do it in the name of America. How can they be two different things? Are they both not killers? And if they are indeed attempting to harm someone, are they seeking to have someone harm them?

I'm sorry if I've offended... but it simply my personal belief.

I'm sure throughout history everyone has always thought they were doing right at the time they were doing it. Everyone has to have something they strongly believe in. Some people find it in religion, some people find it in the military, others find it in other spiritual quests.

I have no issue with protecting the country. It's much the same as a lioness protecting her cubs. What I have issues with in regards to the military, and quite possibly the source of my "anti-military" views is when excessive force is used. An animal protects their domain only when it's threatened and doesn't go any further than necessary to defend it. I feel we, as a country, should do much the same.


dude, youre a ####ing moron. why dont you move to another country filled with pacifists. youre a damn hypocrite. so its ok for some people to defend you and your country but those people are evil and going to get theirs for defending your ass? you make me sick. i dont want to help people like you. go somewhere else. good riddance

I digress from the Kris31280 bashing, but hopefully someone else will continue since she certainly does deserve it.
A few years back, when I served on a certain Aircraft Carrier in Norfolk, VA, I had a Wiccan in my division. Talk about someone who was way, way out there, I can’t even begin to recall all of the stories that he used to tell us about “his religion” as he used to call it. At the time, this dude was an E-3 and his biggest complaint was that he was not allowed to be the lay-leader for the Wiccan community onboard. He went so far as to have his high priestess call me and ask why he was being discriminated against. Fact was, rules required than any lay-leader be at least an E-5, display some level of leadership abilities and be responsible enough to carry out the required duties. This guy met none of those requirements, but still threw a hissy-fit because he felt cheated out of his rights to express his beliefs. He was also kicked out of Navy housing (after several warnings) for carrying out his ritual practices in the quarters. He would gather his family (including two very young boys) and “sacrifice” chickens in his kitchen sink. Now, if part of their creed is to do no harm, to yourself or others...this guy was missing that mark by a good margin. He bragged about having something like 16 tats and was really proud that 2 of them were done professionally. When I asked him who had done the others, he said “some big-tittied biker chick”. He also claimed to have many body piercings including a Prince Albert and Jacob’s ladder.
He finally got kicked out of the Navy and was headed back to Alabama to be a mortician. He was into the dark stuff, so probably a good fit.

I digress from the Kris31280 bashing, but hopefully someone else will continue since she certainly does deserve it.
A few years back, when I served on a certain Aircraft Carrier in Norfolk, VA, I had a Wiccan in my division. Talk about someone who was way, way out there, I can’t even begin to recall all of the stories that he used to tell us about “his religion” as he used to call it. At the time, this dude was an E-3 and his biggest complaint was that he was not allowed to be the lay-leader for the Wiccan community onboard. He went so far as to have his high priestess call me and ask why he was being discriminated against. Fact was, rules required than any lay-leader be at least an E-5, display some level of leadership abilities and be responsible enough to carry out the required duties. This guy met none of those requirements, but still threw a hissy-fit because he felt cheated out of his rights to express his beliefs. He was also kicked out of Navy housing (after several warnings) for carrying out his ritual practices in the quarters. He would gather his family (including two very young boys) and “sacrifice” chickens in his kitchen sink. Now, if part of their creed is to do no harm, to yourself or others...this guy was missing that mark by a good margin. He bragged about having something like 16 tats and was really proud that 2 of them were done professionally. When I asked him who had done the others, he said “some big-tittied biker chick”. He also claimed to have many body piercings including a Prince Albert and Jacob’s ladder.
He finally got kicked out of the Navy and was headed back to Alabama to be a mortician. He was into the dark stuff, so probably a good fit.

Then he wasn't Wiccan.

Then he wasn't Wiccan.

Our world sure is getting crazy. Who would have ever thought we'd have Wiccans and Scientologist in our society? My daughter saw some teen wearing a witch looking symbol at the North Beach boardwalk today. We talked to her about it. I think she understands but how do you explain to a kid that there are people out there with a vivid imagination and a desire to belong to something that feels "magical?" I tried to explain to her that these people were a little weird and probably on drugs. I hope that helped. It's probably good that she meets freaky peeps here and there. Hopefully it will keep her on the right track and realize how lucky she is to have a good foundation in a normal family.

Our world sure is getting crazy. Who would have ever thought we'd have Wiccans and Scientologist in our society? My daughter saw some teen wearing a witch looking symbol at the North Beach boardwalk today. We talked to her about it. I think she understands but how do you explain to a kid that there are people out there with a vivid imagination and a desire to belong to something that feels "magical?" I tried to explain to her that these people were a little weird and probably on drugs. I hope that helped. It's probably good that she meets freaky peeps here and there. Hopefully it will keep her on the right track and realize how lucky she is to have a good foundation in a normal family.

:lol:

Though I agree that Wicca is somewhat off of the beaten path, I find it funny you are telling a Wiccan how freaky they are and that they are on drugs.. :evil:

maybe she should change her name to "magical" mom??

Then he wasn't Wiccan.

He is/was whatever he said he was..

As nobody knows any different he represented Wicca.

And like EVERY part of society you have at least one person that takes it to the next level, or interprets the religion differently. I'm sure, just like about any other religion, depending where in the US/ World you are, the religion is celebrated differently.

Same as saying Hitler wasn't Catholic.