could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.
You're gonna be a BIG hit here..... :duh:

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.
:killingme :killingme :killingme
...nevermind....not worth it. :killingme

Considering it's been in existance for over 2000 years, not anytime soon.

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.
If you're not Catholic, what do you care? :lol:

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.

Catholicism, like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Various "Christian" Denominations, etc. will remain in effect until Y'shua HaMaschiah returns to remind people that it is NOT religion that brings people closer to God but a personal spiritual relationship with The Creator.

Well hath Esaias prophesied - these people worship me with their lips ( canned prayers -rituals and traditions) BUT their hearts are far from Me.

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.

So how long you’ve been waiting to get that off your chest? Feel better now? And oh ya, "Wellcome to the Forum"!

were u running for pope? u sound disappointed u didn't make it

how long until the catholic religion dies? That's an easy one! Since the catholic church continues to grow in the U.S. and the world, it's easy to extrapolate that it will not die.

If the church showed a downward trend in membership, then we could speculate on how long that trend will last.

Next question?

You forgot the Hindu and Wiccans :razz:

:howdy:




And Sikhs, and Zoroastrians, and Scientologists, and....

Not sure it was supposed to be a comprehensive list.

You forgot the Hindu and Wiccans :razz:

:howdy:

:howdy:
They are included in the "etc." category. :whistle: lol

That's an easy one! Since the catholic church continues to grow in the U.S. and the world, it's easy to extrapolate that it will not die.

If the church showed a downward trend in membership, then we could speculate on how long that trend will last.

Next question?


Last I understood, the catholic church was slipping in membership here in the U.S. due mostly to perverted priests. I know that in New England, catholic churches are being put up for sale regularly. My home town used to have over 20 catholic churches and is down to about 12 now. Now, I DID see something that showed the Mormon faith growing exponentially. That would be the church of Latter Day Saints for those who did not realize.

Y'shua HaMaschiah
Well hath Esaias prophesied - these people worship me with their lips ( canned prayers -rituals and traditions) BUT their hearts are far from Me.

sounds like an iranian cab driver i met once.

Catholicism, like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Various "Christian" Denominations, etc. will remain in effect until Y'shua HaMaschiah returns to remind people that it is NOT religion that brings people closer to God but a personal spiritual relationship with The Creator.

Well hath Esaias prophesied - these people worship me with their lips ( canned prayers -rituals and traditions) BUT their hearts are far from Me.

Maybe if the Catholics sprinkle some Hebrew words and some Greek words into their prayers...

Maybe if the Catholics sprinkle some Hebrew words and some Greek words into their prayers...

:lol:

Last I understood, the catholic church was slipping in membership here in the U.S. due mostly to perverted priests. I know that in New England, catholic churches are being put up for sale regularly. My home town used to have over 20 catholic churches and is down to about 12 now. Now, I DID see something that showed the Mormon faith growing exponentially. That would be the church of Latter Day Saints for those who did not realize.
The Churches are being sold to raise money to pay the lawsuits by people claiming to have been abused by Priests. Many settlements are being paid out to avoid the cost of a trial.
The Catholic Church will never fail, God promised to be with her until the end of time. The Holy Spirit guides and protects The Church. The Holy Spirit elects the Pope by guiding the Cardinal Electors.
Now, as to whether Pope Benedict XVI is more conservative than Pope John Paul II is a matter of opinion. Neither one was/is conservative.

The Churches are being sold to raise money to pay the lawsuits by people claiming to have been abused by Priests. Many settlements are being paid out to avoid the cost of a trial.
The Catholic Church will never fail, God promised to be with her until the end of time. The Holy Spirit guides and protects The Church. The Holy Spirit elects the Pope by guiding the Cardinal Electors.
Now, as to whether Pope Benedict XVI is more conservative than Pope John Paul II is a matter of opinion. Neither one was/is conservative.

Hmmm.... With all due respect, the term "Catholic" means Universal and in terms of New Testament theology is not specific to the Vatican RCC but encompasses all who are "born again" of the Spirit of God. It is one's personal Faith in Christ not one's membership to any "church" that was establlished by man. (According to the New Testament)

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.
Are you Catholic?

If not, why do you care?

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the four marks of the True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Therefore, as Dominus Jesu stated, other faith communities are defective. The Protestant faith communities are many, they are not one. They are not Apostolic since they rejected Apostolic Succession. The Schizmatic Churches of the Eastern Rite still have the Truth also.
Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope. One has to submit to the Pope to gain salvation. It has been argued whether anyone can gain Heaven now that the Holy Roman Empire is no more and people are under secular regimes.
It is necessary to establish the Social Kingship of Christ on Earth with His Mother as Queen.

Hmmm.... With all due respect, the term "Catholic" means Universal and in terms of New Testament theology is not specific to the Vatican RCC but encompasses all who are "born again" of the Spirit of God. It is one's personal Faith in Christ not one's membership to any "church" that was establlished by man. (According to the New Testament)


The New Testament according to whom? Starman3000m?

Here we go again...:yawn:





JMJ

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the four marks of the True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Therefore, as Dominus Jesu stated, other faith communities are defective. The Protestant faith communities are many, they are not one. They are not Apostolic since they rejected Apostolic Succession. The Schizmatic Churches of the Eastern Rite still have the Truth also.
Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope. One has to submit to the Pope to gain salvation. It has been argued whether anyone can gain Heaven now that the Holy Roman Empire is no more and people are under secular regimes.
It is necessary to establish the Social Kingship of Christ on Earth with His Mother as Queen.

By Their Fruit, (Examples) you will know them, whether they are of God or not.

The New Testament according to whom? Starman3000m?

Here we go again...:yawn:

JMJ

Take this one to God not me.

Take this one to God not me.

Nice cop out.

Nice cop out.

LOL - Just the Truth! Who else would you believe?

Take this one to God not me.
Another problem with the protestant faith communities! They have different versions of the Bible, a book disaggrees with their ideas, the toss it out.
The Catholic Church has the Magisterium and the Deposit of Faith to fall back on to know which version of the Bible is true.
We have the Pope guided by the Holy Spirit to guide her.

Another problem with the protestant faith communities! They have different versions of the Bible, a book disaggrees with their ideas, the toss it out.
The Catholic Church has the Magisterium and the Deposit of Faith to fall back on to know which version of the Bible is true.
We have the Pope guided by the Holy Spirit to guide her.


OK - but as for me, I personally trust The One and Only Mediator to guide me into Truth:

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)

LOL - Just the Truth! Who else would you believe?

The truth according to whom? Starman3000m? How do I know that the interpretation you presented is correct?




JMJ

The truth according to whom? Starman3000m? How do I know that the interpretation you presented is correct?



JMJ

Take that one to God also. I believe Jesus Is The One Who Shed His Blood as an Atonement, Lives and Mediates on behalf of the Children of God?

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To Do For God.

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the four marks of the True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Therefore, as Dominus Jesu stated, other faith communities are defective. The Protestant faith communities are many, they are not one. They are not Apostolic since they rejected Apostolic Succession. The Schizmatic Churches of the Eastern Rite still have the Truth also.
Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope. One has to submit to the Pope to gain salvation. It has been argued whether anyone can gain Heaven now that the Holy Roman Empire is no more and people are under secular regimes.
It is necessary to establish the Social Kingship of Christ on Earth with His Mother as Queen.
I'm only here for a few rounds. Starman, this is a futlie discussion as many others here know. It has all been said before, MANY TIMES. Bavarian, please show me IN THE BIBLE where Jesus made Peter the first pope and where it says that: "one has to submit to the pope to gain salvation"? I see that YOU TOO are more loyal to catholic doctrine, than to the truth. Thanks.

how long until the cath... 08-30-2007 05:21 PM u is stupid

If I am, I is not alone! :killingme

Take that one to God also.

I think God tells me something different than He tells you. :confused:

I believe Jesus Is The One Who Shed His Blood as an Atonement, Lives and Mediates on behalf of the Children of God?

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To Do For God.

Why did you quote scripture with a question mark?

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.


Spoken like a true moron! :dork:

What makes them stuck in the past (in your mind)?

Why is it not relevant in this day and age (to you)? It's obviously very relevant to millions of people around the world.

What is wrong with the pope being conservative? Do we all have to think the way you do?

I think God tells me something different than He tells you. :confused:

Hmmm... I am curious now; What did God tell you that is different?

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Corinthians 14:33)

Why did you quote scripture with a question mark?

Sorry, my bad, thanks for pointing that out. Should've been puncuated with a period. Happened due to having to hurry and I'll try to be more careful next time.

But, admittedly, this only goes to show that I ain't perfect and that's why I'm banking exclusively on Y'shua HaMashiach, (Jesus of Nazareth) to be my Mediator; He is The Perfect One.

could it be anymore stuck in the past? catholicism is not relevant in this day and age. and they elect a pope who's even more conservative than the last one. good grief.

Could you be more specific? What practices do you think are keeping the Church in the past? I know the Pope has permitted the Tridentine rite (that's my kind of rite!) to be practiced but it is not compulsory. If they haven't changed it, there a few unkind words for the Jews in there!

I'm not interested in how long the Catholic Church will last, its already lasted quite awhile.....

What I find interesting is that a fourteen year old Roman Catholic boy, Joseph Alois Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict XVI, was a forced member of the Hitler Youth when he was a child. I understand that at sixteen years old, he trained as a Luftwaffenhelfer, or colloquially, a Flakhelfer (anti-aircraft corp flak helper), part of a group of about 100,000 German boys (and girls) who were required to assist soldiers with operating searchlight and anti-aircraft batteries. Joseph reportedly was not very keen on being a Hitler Youth, and being of a sickly nature he missed a lot of training (probably on purpose). It is unclear if he trained with the infantry or if he ever actually participated in defense operations. Germany had to draft its youngsters because the Luftwaffe couldn't control the airspace above Germany. The British were constantly bombing urban areas at night and the Americans were doing it by day. I find it somewhat ironic that at age 78 he became the supreme leader of a church that historically had a very large role (over a period of decades) in laying the groundwork for the Holocaust by implementing a sustained campaign of demonizing the Jews, apparently the purpose being to maintain ancient Ecclesiastical discipline within the Church.

I'm only here for a few rounds. Starman, this is a futlie discussion as many others here know. It has all been said before, MANY TIMES. Bavarian, please show me IN THE BIBLE where Jesus made Peter the first pope and where it says that: "one has to submit to the pope to gain salvation"? I see that YOU TOO are more loyal to catholic doctrine, than to the truth. Thanks.

Thanks ItalianScallion, good to see ya here. I Hope Bavarian can answer your questions.

BTW, my mom and dad (now with the Lord) were from a small community in Mexico and were raised to accept Catholic doctrine.

My parents became Evangelical Christians a few years after they were married on account of the mission work of a Protestant minister who visited the town and gave my dad a Holy Bible to keep. At that time, however, the Catholic church members were not allowed to own or read a Bible because "only the priest" could interpret the "word of God." Dad kept and read the Bible anyway.

Long story short, the local priest incited some of the members to turn against my parents for converting to "Protestant" Evangelical Christianity. Their home was pelted with rocks and my parents were scorned and verbally insulted by those whom they had once thought were God-fearing friends. The result is that my parents, with three children at that time, were forced to move out of the community.

Another account that my mom shared is that when she was a young girl attending a celebration at the Catholic church, the local priest had tried to get her off to the side to be alone with him. She perceived that he was up to no good and made a bee-line back to where her parents were. Many other stories were told that are similar to the goings-on of present day priests in the Catholic church and the incidents mom related dated back to the 1930s!

Granted, the Catholic church is by far not the only denomination where such incidents occur but it is hard pressed for any church to maintain credibility when the leadership in charge of "shepherding" turns out to be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Sorry if this offended anyone but I felt this needed to be shared here.

The Chief was explaining things to the Ensign one day.

"You know, I know everyone there is to know. Just name Someone, Anyone and I know them."

Tired of his boasting, the Ensign called his bluff, "Okay, Chief, how about Tom Cruise"? "Sure, yes, Tom and I are old friends and I can prove it."

So they fly out to Hollywood and knock on Tom Cruise's door and sure enough, Tom Cruise, shouts, "Chief! Great to see you! You and your friend come right in and join me for lunch!" Although impressed, the Ensign is still skeptical. After they leave Cruise's house, he tells the Chief that he thinks his knowing Cruise was just lucky.

"No, no, just name anyone else," the Chief says. "President Bush," the Ensign quickly retorts. Yep", I know him, let's fly out to Washington."

So, off they go. At the White House, Bush spots them on the tour and motions them over, saying, "Chief, what a surprise. I was just on my way to a meeting, but you and that Ensign come on in and let's have a cup of coffee first and catch up."

Well, the Ensign is very shaken by now, but still not totally convinced.

After they leave the White House grounds, he expresses his doubts to the Chief, who again implores him to name anyone else. The new Pope,"

the Ensign replies. "Sure, I've known the Pope a long time."

So, off they fly to Rome.

They're assembled with the masses in Vatican Square when the Chief says, this will never work. I can't catch the Pope's eye among all these people. Tell you what, I know all the guards, so let me just go upstairs and I'll come out on the balcony with the Pope." He disappears into the crowd headed toward St. Peter's.

Sure enough, half an hour later, the Chief emerges with the Pope on the balcony. But by the time he returns, he finds that the Ensign has had a heart attack and is surrounded by paramedics.

Working his way to his side, the Chief asks him, "What happened"?

The Ensign looks up and says, "I was doing fine until you and the Pope came out on the balcony and the tourist next to me asked, "Who's that on the balcony next to the Chief"?


Its GOOD to be the CHIEF!

PS...if you stayed around long enough to read this...these so-called "conservative" Pope's have revitalized the Christian faith. And while it isn't perfect (no institution of Man...even one that is supposed to follow the teachings of God...is perfect.) I'm proud of my faith, one that traces it's beginnings to the words spoken to Peter by Christ..."Upon this rock, I will build my church."

...Long story short, the local priest incited some of the members to turn against my parents for converting to "Protestant" Evangelical Christianity. Their home was pelted with rocks and my parents were scorned and verbally insulted by those whom they had once thought were God-fearing friends. The result is that my parents, with three children at that time, were forced to move out of the community.

Another account that my mom shared is that when she was a young girl attending a celebration at the Catholic church, the local priest had tried to get her off to the side to be alone with him. She perceived that he was up to no good and made a bee-line back to where her parents were. Many other stories were told that are similar to the goings-on of present day priests in the Catholic church and the incidents mom related dated back to the 1930s!...Sorry if this offended anyone but I felt this needed to be shared here.

Wow! I really love the Protestant vs. Catholic smackdown. It's almost as uplifting as the all-too-typical Christian vs. everyone else smackdown. This however is different. This may just be the most inappropriate post I have ever read here on the religious forum.

"Pssst...By-the-way, just for your own good...I heard that priests are abusive child molesters...but I mean that in love."

Wow! I really love the Protestant vs. Catholic smackdown. It's almost as uplifting as the all-too-typical Christian vs. everyone else smackdown. This however is different. This may just be the most inappropriate post I have ever read here on the religious forum.

"Pssst...By-the-way, just for your own good...I heard that priests are abusive child molesters...but I mean that in love."


Hi brendar,

P.S. You forgot to include the last paragraph of my post which reads:

Granted, the Catholic church is by far not the only denomination where such incidents occur but it is hard pressed for any church to maintain credibility when the leadership in charge of "shepherding" turns out to be wolves in sheep's clothing.

BTW:
The "Protestant vs Catholic smackdown" (as you call it) began in the year 1517 as a challenge to what was being taught by the Vatican. If you are really ( I mean really) interested in the history please take a look:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html

If that link doesn't work for whatever reason do an Internet search using the words 95 Thesis.

Remember this was from the year 1517; not 2007.

the karma i got from this thread is hilarious, and just goes to further prove how intolerant catholics are of thinking outside the box.

for all your information, specifically those negging me, i was raised catholic, and did all the sacraments (baptism, reconciliation, first communion, confirmation). i went to church every sunday for the first 17 years of my life. i went to sunday school for many of those years, as well as for a week every summer for 5 years or so in there.

that being said i'd love to see you all purporting that the catholic church is growing in the united states, because i find that VERY hard to believe when i come from baltimore, a VERY old archdiocese, and they can barely get 1 priest per church nowadays, whereas 10 years ago we had 3 full time priests including the pastor. many churches have cut masses. and maryland is, i would wager, one of the most heavily catholic states in the country.

if catholicism is growing worldwide, it is through missionaries in africa and central/south america, it is certainly not in the united states. when is the last time the catholic church had good publicity?

ways the catholic church is behind the times:
-birth control: natural family planning doesnt work. if you want every catholic family to have 9 kids and not be able to send any of them to college and lower each one's standard of living, then by all means, natural family plan away. give me a condom, and give the girl the pill. same goes for morning after pills which PREVENT CONCEPTION not abort a fertilized egg.
-divorce = no communion. i could be wrong on this one, but i believe if you get divorced, and do not have an anullment, you technically arent supposed to be allowed to take communion? that makes sense. i'm sure Jesus would have turned these people away from receiving him.
-priests cant get married: this one never made sense to me. almost everything in christianity is founding on judaism, where rabbis can get married.
-only male priests: i'm no biblical scholar but i don't recall it saying only males can be priests. i get the fact that they are supposed to be married to God, but seriously, the above point and this one, are we really surprised about the scandals that arise?
-womens rights: women are the driving religious force in many families, and in general, the catholic church treats women as second rate citizens. Hell, for the first 1900 years or so of the religion, women could not even go on the altar. at least now they can be eucharistic ministers. but why shouldn't they be deacons, or priests? i can't blame any woman for feeling out of touch with the catholic church. it's ruled by men, all decisions are made by men and men alone, and only men are allowed to lead congregations. but hey, we can give out bread and sing. hooray!!!

those are some of my issues with the church. i understand where it's coming from but at this point it is out of touch and behind the times. and there is precedent for modernizing the church.... vatican conventions and such. the church should change with the times to most serve and reach its people.

the karma i got from this thread is hilarious, and just goes to further prove how intolerant catholics are of thinking outside the box.

Well, I didn't leave you red karma but I am antagonistic toward your viewpoint.

For the record, I am an atheist. Not an agnostic, as in I don't know if there's a God or not, but an atheist (a: meaning without; theism: meaning a belief). But I am not hostile to religion and think it's part of our cultural heritage, and you are ignorant of religion to your own peril.

I would like you to explain to me why you feel the need to denigrate a religious belief that has no bearing on your life or well-being.

Well, I didn't leave you red karma but I am antagonistic toward your viewpoint.

For the record, I am an atheist. Not an agnostic, as in I don't know if there's a God or not, but an atheist (a: meaning without; theism: meaning a belief). But I am not hostile to religion and think it's part of our cultural heritage, and you are ignorant of religion to your own peril.

I would like you to explain to me why you feel the need to denigrate a religious belief that has no bearing on your life or well-being.
how am i ignorant of religion? i love sweeping assumptions based on 20 words. i think i just explained how religion has and continues to have a tremendous impact on my life. i have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in mass/sunday school/etc. hell i was even an altar boy for a few years.

catholicism has had a profound impact on my life. much of it positive - many of the morals/values that most religions teach are very positive, important, and excellent for imparting upon our children and others. the problem is that that is not the focus of the catholic church- IMO they would rather stop one abortion than teach one child to treat others how they want to be treated. the vatican is a political body- and i firmly despise religion mixing with politics. i know complete separation is impossible- but i think we could do better than we do now. the catholic church spends more time telling us how NOT to lead our lives than how to lead better lives.

the pope (before he was pope, if i remember correctly) says he would refuse communion to a politician who happens to be pro-choice... would Jesus ever refuse communion to ANYONE if they sincerely desired it?? the catholic church has lost its way.

and yes religions are a part of our heritage. i don't see where i have denied this, or taken a stance that all religions should be abolished. i think you and others are putting words into my mouth. however, it's important to realize that the heritage of religion is as negative as it is positive.

I see new people here so I'll clarify my position. I NEVER "bash" the other denominations. When I say something here to present the truth, it may look like hate speech but it isn't! Jesus did the same thing! I NEVER wanted to spend all my time pointing out the flaws of ANY denomination but it happens more often than not. I was raised in Catholic schools & church for 17 years. Never an altar boy but I grew to hate the things I was made to do there. Because of that, at 17 I left and, for 17 years, I purposely did whatever I wanted, to spite their teachings. I got saved in 1989 and promised God not to hate them any longer and to point people to the truth and that's what I do today. People hate to be told that they are wrong. That's why they say it's hate speech. I do not hate Catholics! I do not hate anyone! What I hate is a persons refusal to believe the truth! That's the only thing that will keep you out of Heaven and that's why I do what I do here. I can't stop others from saying what they do but I think part of the problem here is the way things are presented. When some folks post teaching errors about a group, they are posted in a derogatory way as opposed to just stating the facts without the animosity. Some people find it hard NOT to hate what the Catholic church has taught & done in the past. Others, like myself, do not. Remember, if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong. Some see this as hate speech, narrow mindedness or bigotry but wise people see it as caring! If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend my time doing this for so long. READ YOUR BIBLE ALL YOU CHURCH GOING PEOPLE, AND BELIEVE IT! Don't blindly believe whatever you're taught. You have no other "standard of truth" if you don't. Then you too can see (if you truly want to) when someone is doing/teaching the right thing or not. :doh:

i love sweeping assumptions based on 20 words.
Me too. We have common ground :huggy:

the catholic church spends more time telling us how NOT to lead our lives than how to lead better lives.
Do you not think that is one and the same?

Jesus ever refuse communion to ANYONE if they sincerely desired it??
If he got a load of modern day politicians, he would probably not only refuse them communion, but he would run screaming down the street tearing at his own eyeballs.

it's important to realize that the heritage of religion is as negative as it is positive.
Explain, please. Religion has a notorious past, but "past" and "heritage" are two different things. The heritage of religion can be modern day Christianity, where you are taught to love your brother, or it can be Islamofascism, where you are taught to kill the infidel.

Which are you talking about?

Gus, do you think Jesus would approve of abortion?

If you're not Catholic, what do you care? :lol:

:yeahthat: Why would someone "new" here pick a fight like this?


MPD

Emphasis added:

I see new people here so I'll clarify my position. I NEVER "bash" the other denominations. When I say something here to present the truth, it may look like hate speech but it isn't! Jesus did the same thing! I NEVER wanted to spend all my time pointing out the flaws of ANY denomination but it happens more often than not. I was raised in Catholic schools & church for 17 years. Never an altar boy but I grew to hate the things I was made to do there. Because of that, at 17 I left and, for 17 years, I purposely did whatever I wanted, to spite their teachings. I got saved in 1989 and promised God not to hate them any longer and to point people to the truth and that's what I do today. People hate to be told that they are wrong. That's why they say it's hate speech. I do not hate Catholics! I do not hate anyone! What I hate is a persons refusal to believe the truth! That's the only thing that will keep you out of Heaven and that's why I do what I do here. I can't stop others from saying what they do but I think part of the problem here is the way things are presented. When some folks post teaching errors about a group, they are posted in a derogatory way as opposed to just stating the facts without the animosity. Some people find it hard NOT to hate what the Catholic church has taught & done in the past. Others, like myself, do not. Remember, if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong. Some see this as hate speech, narrow mindedness or bigotry but wise people see it as caring! If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend my time doing this for so long. READ YOUR BIBLE ALL YOU CHURCH GOING PEOPLE, AND BELIEVE IT! Don't blindly believe whatever you're taught. You have no other "standard of truth" if you don't. Then you too can see (if you truly want to) when someone is doing/teaching the right thing or not. :doh:

Totally Agree!

Remember that Jesus chastised the religious leaders of His day and not the ordinary people. The religious leaders who should have known better were the ones causing people to stray from the Truth by imposing man-made obligations and expectations that were self-serving to them and not to God. Those religious leaders incited people to turn against Jesus because His Teachings were not what they wanted to hear.

Truth is Not Hate Speech but many are offended when truthful words are spoken. As you stated "if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong."

Keep up the Good Work Italian Scallion and count yourself faithful when you challenge religous error by helping to steer people to the truth of God's Word - even if feelings get hurt along the way.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
(Proverbs 27:6)

Read about the American "Bible Wars" around the end of the 19th century (1870ish i think).

Its amazing whats gone on HERE with regards of one Denomination of Christians verses another Denomination of Christians.


That's because There Is Only One Truth and people of all varying denominations cannot agree on the One Truth. That is why such inter-faith summits will not really work and why the denominational disagreements between ALL religions will continue until Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus of Nazareth) returns to establish God's Truth and Peace on Earth.

Until then, this world will continue in chaos.

At that time, however, the Catholic church members were not allowed to own or read a Bible because "only the priest" could interpret the "word of God." Dad kept and read the Bible anyway.

Are you sure about that? Church members were not disallowed a bible; however, private interpretations have been and are discouraged. Why? Because when that occurs you get over 22,000 Protestant denominations who claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit but yet believe different things. As you said, our God is not one of confusion.

Long story short, the local priest incited some of the members to turn against my parents for converting to "Protestant" Evangelical Christianity. Their home was pelted with rocks and my parents were scorned and verbally insulted by those whom they had once thought were God-fearing friends. The result is that my parents, with three children at that time, were forced to move out of the community.

I'm very sorry. That should have never happened. However, to take the actions of one priest, community, or even culture and condemn a whole faith is unreasonable at best. I don't condemn Baptists because the baptist preacher down south was raping his daughters. :shrug: The Body of Christ is made of wheat and chaffe and all will be willowed out in the end.

Another account that my mom shared is that when she was a young girl attending a celebration at the Catholic church, the local priest had tried to get her off to the side to be alone with him. She perceived that he was up to no good and made a bee-line back to where her parents were. Many other stories were told that are similar to the goings-on of present day priests in the Catholic church and the incidents mom related dated back to the 1930s!

Ones perception is subjective. Your mother may have been spot on, or she may not have been, it's hard to say. As for present-day priestly abuses in the West, they have indeed occurred and in some cases covered up and it's a travesty. I can get into a fuller discussion about why this has occurred, what can be done about it, and what not but this but it will have to wait for another day.

Granted, the Catholic church is by far not the only denomination where such incidents occur but it is hard pressed for any church to maintain credibility when the leadership in charge of "shepherding" turns out to be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Sorry if this offended anyone but I felt this needed to be shared here.

You're right, wether it be US Catholic bishops or television evangelical pastors.

No offense taken by me.

Hmmm... I am curious now; What did God tell you that is different?

Matthew 16:16-19. He tells me to follow the Apostolic lineage that Jesus Himself established.

Wow! I really love the Protestant vs. Catholic smackdown. It's almost as uplifting as the all-too-typical Christian vs. everyone else smackdown. This however is different. This may just be the most inappropriate post I have ever read here on the religious forum.

"Pssst...By-the-way, just for your own good...I heard that priests are abusive child molesters...but I mean that in love."

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

:huggy:

Matthew 16:16-19. He tells me to follow the Apostolic lineage that Jesus Himself established.

It's Not the Apostolic lineage that one trusts in but the lineage of faith in Whom Christ is:

Here is what the scripture you referenced reads:

Matthew 16:16-17 (New International Version)

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Simon was not the only one called blessed by Jesus in the Holy Bible. Jesus called the ordinary people that were poor and humble as blessed.

What Jesus was commending Simon on was the Truth that was revealed to him and that was that Jesus Is The Christ, the Son of The Living God.

That's exactly what happened to me, as mentioned in my testimony, where I personally heard the audible words of God confirm that Jesus was The Son of God. I don't really think that means I should be a pope but it does show that God Reveals the Truth about Jesus as this was a time when I did not really believe that I needed to deal with Jesus as my Mediator. As a result, my Atheist wife, Diane, was also confronted with Truth about God's Existence and we both became born-again believers in Christ.

The ROCK indicates the Foundational Truth that Jesus Is The Son of God. Upon that Rock Jesus has built His Church.

that being said i'd love to see you all purporting that the catholic church is growing in the united states, because i find that VERY hard to believe


http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

Catholic population in the US:
1965 45.6m
1975 48.7m
1985 52.3m
1995 57.4m
2000 59.9m
2005 64.8m

the karma i got from this thread is hilarious, and just goes to further prove how intolerant catholics are of thinking outside the box.

As a practice, I only give green karma. It's not just Catholics either btw judging from the three nasty red karma I received. :lol:

that being said i'd love to see you all purporting that the catholic church is growing in the united states, because i find that VERY hard to believe when i come from baltimore, a VERY old archdiocese, and they can barely get 1 priest per church nowadays, whereas 10 years ago we had 3 full time priests including the pastor. many churches have cut masses. and maryland is, i would wager, one of the most heavily catholic states in the country.

if catholicism is growing worldwide, it is through missionaries in africa and central/south america, it is certainly not in the united states. when is the last time the catholic church had good publicity?

I agree with you. Catholicism in the States is not growing; however, it is in other places in the world. Priestly shortage here in the states forces priests from other nations to come and work, mostly those from India.

ways the catholic church is behind the times:

If I live in a culture of death then I am thankful that the Catholic Church is "behind the times".

-birth control: natural family planning doesnt work. if you want every catholic family to have 9 kids and not be able to send any of them to college and lower each one's standard of living, then by all means, natural family plan away. give me a condom, and give the girl the pill. same goes for morning after pills which PREVENT CONCEPTION not abort a fertilized egg.

Some forms of birth control are debatable. Most do not prevent conception but create an inhospitable uterine lining to accept an already fertilized egg.

-divorce = no communion. i could be wrong on this one, but i believe if you get divorced, and do not have an anullment, you technically arent supposed to be allowed to take communion? that makes sense. i'm sure Jesus would have turned these people away from receiving him.

You are wrong on this one. A civilly divorced person can still partake in the sacraments. It's when a divorced person gets remarried without an annulment that the sacraments are denied becuase then the person is openly in a state of adultery and obviously remaining married without a previous annulment is not going to get one absolution in the confessional.

-priests cant get married: this one never made sense to me. almost everything in christianity is founding on judaism, where rabbis can get married.

Priestly celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine. It's done for both practical and spiritual reasons. It can and perhaps will be changed in the future.

-only male priests: i'm no biblical scholar but i don't recall it saying only males can be priests. i get the fact that they are supposed to be married to God, but seriously, the above point and this one, are we really surprised about the scandals that arise?

The Church refuses women to the priesthood simply because Jesus had no women apostles. None of the 12 were women. The Church didn't design it that way, Jesus did. :shrug:

-womens rights: women are the driving religious force in many families, and in general, the catholic church treats women as second rate citizens. Hell, for the first 1900 years or so of the religion, women could not even go on the altar. at least now they can be eucharistic ministers. but why shouldn't they be deacons, or priests? i can't blame any woman for feeling out of touch with the catholic church. it's ruled by men, all decisions are made by men and men alone, and only men are allowed to lead congregations. but hey, we can give out bread and sing. hooray!!!

I'm a Catholic woman and have never felt as a second rate citizen in the Church. My gifts of time and talent have always been greatly appreciated. I don't need the priesthood to feel a part of the community. Mary Magdalene didn't need it either and she was the first evangelist, go figure. Btw, not all decisions are made by men. There are plenty of women who are on parish committees making decisions. Trust me.

-those are some of my issues with the church. i understand where it's coming from but at this point it is out of touch and behind the times. and there is precedent for modernizing the church.... vatican conventions and such. the church should change with the times to most serve and reach its people.

You know what? The very fact that the Catholic Church sticks to its beliefs and does not change with the times is one minor reason why I became Catholic (yes, I'm a convert :gasp:). The Word of God doesn't change with the times why should God's Church? :shrug:

Btw, thank you for explaining things. It makes for better dialogue. :smile: :flowers:

:popcorn:
Boy this is fun, and this time i'm not even involved :lmao:

:smack:






:lmao:

It's Not the Apostolic lineage that one trusts in but the lineage of faith in Whom Christ is:

The ROCK indicates the Foundational Truth that Jesus Is The Son of God. Upon that Rock Jesus has built His Church.

Oh boy, I suppose we could get into the Greek and Latin and all of that and why you are interpretating that passage incorrectly but I really don't have time for that unfortunately. Suffice it to say, the Church has from the very beginning interpreted that passage differently than those who protested from 16th century onwards. As for myself, I would much rather adhere to apostolic interpretations that I know came down from Peter who handed it to his successor by the laying on of hands, who in turn did the same to his successor, and so on and so forth.

The "Morning After Pill" is an abortifactant, it prevents the fertilized egg to implant.
Mexico has a official government prohibtion on the Catholic Church since their revolution, making it fertile ground for Satan and his minions to lead people away from the truth.
St. Peter was made the first Pope by Jesus when he said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. Any other wording is from an invalid translation of the Bible. On Easter Sunday, St. Peter was the first to enter the empty tomb, even though St. John got there first.
No one knows if they are saved until they stand before God in personal judgement after death.

I will continue to pray for you heretics that you will return to the Church before it is too late.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

Catholic population in the US:
1965 45.6m
1975 48.7m
1985 52.3m
1995 57.4m
2000 59.9m
2005 64.8m

I suspect those numbers are due to Hispanic immigration and not conversions or simple birthrate.

I will continue to pray for you heretics that you will return to the Church before it is too late.

Dude, please tell me you're not SSPX.

Oh boy, I suppose we could get into the Greek and Latin and all of that and why you are interpretating that passage incorrectly but I really don't have time for that unfortunately. Suffice it to say, the Church has from the very beginning interpreted that passage differently than those who protested from 16th century onwards. As for myself, I would much rather adhere to apostolic interpretations that I know came down from Peter who handed it to his successor by the laying on of hands, who in turn did the same to his successor, and so on and so forth.

Please take time to read the Biblical scripture and context of the whole chapter of Matthew 16. You will also find in the Bible that Jesus chided Peter shortly afterward for not believing that Jesus would have to die for the sins of mankind. Simon Peter was also the apostle who drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the centurions who came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene. Jesus told him to put away the sword.

The Rock is the Foundational Truth alone that Jesus Is The Christ, The Son of The Living God. That is the Rock that the Truth of God is built upon and all who trust in Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God are part of His Church. Not a "specific denomination" but personal Faith in The Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Was her name Sophie? (sorry bad movie reference)

Har, har, har! :smack:

Please take time to read the Biblical scripture and context of the whole chapter of Matthew 16. You will also find in the Bible that Jesus chided Peter shortly afterward for not believing that Jesus would have to die for the sins of mankind. Simon Peter was also the apostle who drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the centurions who came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene. Jesus told him to put away the sword.

The Rock is the Foundational Truth alone that Jesus Is The Christ, The Son of The Living God. That is the Rock that the Truth of God is built upon and all who trust in Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God are part of His Church. Not a "specific denomination" but personal Faith in The Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

I have read it. I disagree with you. It's not a matter of "specific denomination". That wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for Protestants who took it upon themselves to interpret personally and often erroneously. Let me remind you that there were no "denominations" for the first 15 centuries of Christianity.

I'd agree, i'd like to see a comparison of Catholics and Population. Showing the flat number is misleadings since the percentage could be dropping.

23% of the population in 1975, 23% in 2005.

Another argument between Catholics and Protestants. Surprise! :sarcasm:

If we are Christians, we should be proclaiming Jesus and salvation not whether being a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, a whatever is better. Remember:1 Corinthians 13:11-13

11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Not one knows or comprehends the mind of God other than what we read from His word. If you read a "Catholic" Bible or a New International Version there is far more that is exactly alike and much less that is different and the differences are mainly trivial.

Satan is doing well to keep Christians going at each other. That way we can't proclaim the gospel and he can prevent more souls from getting into God's kingdom. I think Christians arguing among themselves as to who is right and who is wrong is straight from hell and causes more souls to be lost than won.


God is the creator of the universe.
He provided the scriptures through His prophets and followers through divine inspiration for all mankind to find His way.
He came as man as Y'shua, Jesus, as the sacrifice for all mankind.
Jesus was crucified for our sins.
Jesus rose from the dead as a promise of eternal life for all who accept God's plan of forgiveness.
Forgiveness is available to all who accept Jesus as Savior and Lord and follow His ways.
Jesus will return to rule with His followers.


Do Catholics and Protestants agree on this list? I think so. Everything else is the vanity of man getting in the way.

May God rebuke satan for dividing His people.

I have read it. I disagree with you. It's not a matter of "specific denomination". That wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for Protestants who took it upon themselves to interpret personally and often erroneously. Let me remind you that there were no "denominations" for the first 15 centuries of Christianity.

Correct, there were no "denominations" but there were various churches established by the Apostles who went their various ways to spread the Good News of Christ. The Apostles did not point to Peter as the leader of the message; they pointed people to have personal Faith in Jesus Christ, The Son of the Living God, as the Way to Salvation. It is faith in Christ, not in any other man or membership in any church, whereby one receives Salvation.

Another argument between Catholics and Protestants. Surprise! :sarcasm:

If we are Christians, we should be proclaiming Jesus and salvation not whether being a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, a whatever is better. Remember:
Not one knows or comprehends the mind of God other than what we read from His word. If you read a "Catholic" Bible or a New International Version there is far more that is exactly alike and much less that is different and the differences are mainly trivial.

Satan is doing well to keep Christians going at each other. That way we can't proclaim the gospel and he can prevent more souls from getting into God's kingdom. I think Christians arguing among themselves as to who is right and who is wrong is straight from hell and causes more souls to be lost than won.


God is the creator of the universe.
He provided the scriptures through His prophets and followers through divine inspiration for all mankind to find His way.
He came as man as Y'shua, Jesus, as the sacrifice for all mankind.
Jesus was crucified for our sins.
Jesus rose from the dead as a promise of eternal life for all who accept God's plan of forgiveness.
Forgiveness is available to all who accept Jesus as Savior and Lord and follow His ways.
Jesus will return to rule with His followers.


Do Catholics and Protestants agree on this list? I think so. Everything else is the vanity of man getting in the way.

May God rebuke satan for dividing His people.

The Foundational Faith is belief in Jesus Christ alone as you have listed.
However, once any denomination coerces people into believing theirs is the exclusive church membership that "guarantees" Salvation is where the division begins.

Unfortunately, today's organized religions and assorted denominations place "conditions" on Salvation apart from genuine repentance and personal Faith in Christ.

Correct, there were no "denominations" but there were various churches established by the Apostles who went their various ways to spread the Good News of Christ. The Apostles did not point to Peter as the leader of the message; they pointed people to have personal Faith in Jesus Christ, The Son of the Living God, as the Way to Salvation. It is faith in Christ, not in any other man or membership in any church, whereby one receives Salvation.

Yes, the apostles were the bearers of the Good News and they relented to Peter as their leader in the matter. If it were not for the Apostolic Church founded upon Peter there would be no salvation for nobody would have heard the Word of God.

In your opinion does it matter what one believes about Christ? Even the demons believe (James 2:19). Psstt...I don't think the demons are gaining salvation through their personal faith in Christ. :ohwell:

Well hello there, :howdy:.

And that brings us back to my question about Native Americans (Here (http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=2295551&postcount=27) Here (http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=2295561&postcount=28) Here (http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=2295573&postcount=31))
According to your belief, you have to have faith in Christ in order to reach salvation. The Native Americans didnt know Christ until the Spaniard priests came and "saved" them.

So, did the Native Americans that died, before they were taught the "Word" and "One Truth", go to hell?

If so, why? They were seperated by thousands of miles of water, from where Jesus lived and died. There was no way fro them to learn of a Savior.
They were punished for Ignorance?
Because otherwise, did Jesus and God purposely make it so that the Heathens went to hell before the Spaniards came, and ultimately "Saved" them?

:howdy:

I don't know if you read my response in a previous thread, but the answer is that the Native Americans would have been descended from people who migrated from the original starting point of God's Creation of man; the Middle East. At that time, their societies would either have been pagan or would have been believing in Only One God of Creation. When the native people migrated to America they would have brought their faith-beliefs with them.

If any of the tribe remained faithful to the belief and worship of The One God and not paganism, then I believe that God would have honored that faith under the Old Covenant Laws of God that were established and that they would have faithfully lived by. Remember that Salvation is done on a personal basis not a communal basis.

Now, however, with the comprehension of having to decide between paganism and Monotheism, many social orders (tribes) became more controlled by leaders who imposed pagan practices and the people had to go along with it - with, perhaps, the exception of those who disagreed.

I am sure that those tribes had their own atheists and agnostics among their midst who had a difference of opinion.

God is faithful, knows the heart of mankind and reveals His Truth to those who seek the Truth.

Yes, the apostles were the bearers of the Good News and they relented to Peter as their leader in the matter. If it were not for the Apostolic Church founded upon Peter there would be no salvation for nobody would have heard the Word of God.

In your opinion does it matter what one believes about Christ? Even the demons believe (James 2:19). Psstt...I don't think the demons are gaining salvation through their personal faith in Christ. :ohwell:

Correct, there were no "denominations" but there were various churches established by the Apostles who went their various ways to spread the Good News of Christ. The Apostles did not point to Peter as the leader of the message; they pointed people to have personal Faith in Jesus Christ, The Son of the Living God, as the Way to Salvation. It is faith in Christ, not in any other man or membership in any church, whereby one receives Salvation.
I discern a difference between "believe in" and "faith in" and the difference is profound.

Could you be more specific? What practices do you think are keeping the Church in the past? I know the Pope has permitted the Tridentine rite (that's my kind of rite!) to be practiced but it is not compulsory. If they haven't changed it, there a few unkind words for the Jews in there!

I'm not interested in how long the Catholic Church will last, its already lasted quite awhile.....

What I find interesting is that a fourteen year old Roman Catholic boy, Joseph Alois Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict XVI, was a forced member of the Hitler Youth when he was a child. I understand that at sixteen years old, he trained as a Luftwaffenhelfer, or colloquially, a Flakhelfer (anti-aircraft corp flak helper), part of a group of about 100,000 German boys (and girls) who were required to assist soldiers with operating searchlight and anti-aircraft batteries. Joseph reportedly was not very keen on being a Hitler Youth, and being of a sickly nature he missed a lot of training (probably on purpose). It is unclear if he trained with the infantry or if he ever actually participated in defense operations. Germany had to draft its youngsters because the Luftwaffe couldn't control the airspace above Germany. The British were constantly bombing urban areas at night and the Americans were doing it by day. I find it somewhat ironic that at age 78 he became the supreme leader of a church that historically had a very large role (over a period of decades) in laying the groundwork for the Holocaust by implementing a sustained campaign of demonizing the Jews, apparently the purpose being to maintain ancient Ecclesiastical discipline within the Church.
You do not know the facts. Unless one lived through the War in Germany or had close relatives who did, they should remain silent. My father was one of six brothers who were sent to war, only two survived. He was held for slave labor in France until 1948, (sound like what is being done now). My mother, who was U.S. citizen living in Germany had to climb from basement to basement of bombed buildings.
Why were schools, churches and hospitals targeted by the English? Look at pictures of the destruction. My father's aunt was a school principal, she let the classes go home at noon the day before a holiday, at 2PM, a bomb went through the school, this in a rural area.
We could go on and on, but you get my point. Don't judge Pope Benedict XVI. One of my young aunts also watched the skys for aircraft.

Yes, the apostles were the bearers of the Good News and they relented to Peter as their leader in the matter. If it were not for the Apostolic Church founded upon Peter there would be no salvation for nobody would have heard the Word of God.

Is this really scriptural? Please show me from the Holy Bible where the Apostles relented to Peter as their "leader".

In your opinion does it matter what one believes about Christ?

Fair question, but, my opinion does not count in this circumstance. It is Jesus' opinion that matters in regard to what a person believes about Him. That is why He asked: Whom Do People Say That I Am?
Even the demons believe (James 2:19). Psstt...I don't think the demons are gaining salvation through their personal faith in Christ. :ohwell:

Yes, the demons know that Christ is the Son of The Living God; however, they are among Satan's minions who turned against God and were cast out of heaven. They chose to follow Satan. That is why they cried out by asking if Jesus had arrived to judge them before their time (of judgment).

I thought i did, but i didnt see how mankind originally descending from the Middle East (this is your contention, not mine, but thats a different fight lol), and then having moved to the "New World" has anything to do with Having Faith in Christ.
Basically your saying they moved over here, with knowledge of the Old Testament and then splintered.
But someone (was it you?) said you had to have Faith in Christ, to be saved. So even if they came over here, with beliefs similiar to the Jews, they (being thousands of miles away) had no ability to know Christ came and existed.

Ok i understand the reasonings, basically if they stayed true to the OT then they were covered. See no problem.

Ok i can see how the first couple of Generations would have gotten in trouble for moving away from the Old Testament, they have direct knowledge yet they ignored it and went Heathen instead.
But what about the 40th Generation down the line, they wouldnt have had any exposure to anything other than praying to the Jaguar God, thats all they and there Forebearers would have known.
So they were "Heathen" because of exposure and environment, this is where Toxic and I got into an issue. I stated if you were only exposed to Islam, then you were most likely going to be a Muslim, its not till your exposed to other beliefs that you even KNOW there could be some other way to pray. I wasnt slamming Toxic (though he took it that way) it just a matter of exposure.
back to the Heathens, if all they know is following Paganistic Heathen Gods, how are they punished for ignorance?

I'm sure they did too, unfortunately for them, they didnt live where a belief of Freedom of Religion was prevalent.

Not to belabor it, but how do they (The Heathen) know there is a "Truth" if all they've known and been taught is the Heathens version of a "One Truth" (not saying thiers is better, just different than your own "One Truth")

That get backs to the Sins, your (Abrahamic) Sins are different than the Heathens. In your opinion, are they (the Heathen) sinning, if they commit an act you think of as Sin yet in their Belief its not?

That actually could get back to the Different Denomination beliefs, since in some its Though Shall not Murder (kill an innocent) and in others its Though Shall not Kill (take anyones life). Is it a Sin if you follow the First example, but another follows the second?
Now i know you'll post that one of those is Correct, but that wasnt the intention of that question.

Thanks Nucklesack - All good questions and there are answers to each of them. Will be able to respond at length a bit later this afternoon when I am able to have time.

...the answer is that the Native Americans would have been descended from people who migrated from the original starting point of God's Creation of man; the Middle East. At that time, their societies would either have been pagan or would have been believing in Only One God of Creation. When the native people migrated to America they would have brought their faith-beliefs with them...

Over 12500 years ago (http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmnh/origin.htm) Hebrews marched through and ice age?

I thought i did, but i didnt see how mankind originally descending from the Middle East (this is your contention, not mine, but thats a different fight lol), and then having moved to the "New World" has anything to do with Having Faith in Christ.
Where was the garden of Eden? The Middle East. More importantly, where did Noah's Ark run aground? Also, Middle East.
That does not, however, imply that American Indians were followers of the Old Testament.

Gus,
Do I understand you correctly? You hate most of what the Catholic Church stands for, yet you still attend? Why?
There are so many churches you could go to, shopping until you found one that teaches all you already believe. If you do this, you won't have to change anything about yourself, and you can comfortably sit in the pew without examination of conscience.
The Catholic Church has solid reasons for all that she teaches in the name of Jesus Christ. If you don't like it, make use of the free will God gave you and leave.
I am a woman, just as a previous poster said about herself, and I do not feel one bit slighted by the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I do not believe any other faith raises women, and their roles in society, up as much as the CC does. And, as if you didn't know, who is the single most celebrated created person in all of humanity according to the Catholic Church? I'll give you a hint, it's a woman!

St. Peter was made the first Pope by Jesus when he said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. Any other wording is from an invalid translation of the Bible. On Easter Sunday, St. Peter was the first to enter the empty tomb, even though St. John got there first.
No one knows if they are saved until they stand before God in personal judgement after death.
I will continue to pray for you heretics that you will return to the Church before it is too late.
Read & study more Bavarian. Peter was NOT made a pope by Jesus. The word pope NEVER appears in the Bible. In Matthew 16v18 Jesus said:...you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. The Greek word Peter is "petros" and the next word rock is "petra"- 2 different things. The Apostles helped the church grow but it was built on the ONLY possible foundation that could support it- Jesus!
Next, Peter wasn't the first at the tomb. The women were (Mary Magdalene & another Mary). Read Matthew 28v1. After they heard from the angel, they went back to tell the Apostles what they heard and then Peter & John went there (vs 8).
Strike 3 is your worst statement of all! I couldn't live THINKING/HOPING that I was saved. We Christians can all know that we are saved as in 1 John 5v13. If you need to wait and hope that you are saved you should join the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Amish because they feel the same way you do about salvation. Please don't continue to pray for me because obviously you aren't sure of your salvation and I don't want an unsaved person praying for me. No offense meant, just going by what you say here. :howdy:

Gus,
The Catholic Church has solid reasons for all that she teaches in the name of Jesus Christ.
I am a woman, just as a previous poster said about herself, and I do not feel one bit slighted by the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I do not believe any other faith raises women, and their roles in society, up as much as the CC does. And, as if you didn't know, who is the single most celebrated created person in all of humanity according to the Catholic Church? I'll give you a hint, it's a woman!
Yes, and to your demise, your church elevates her above Jesus which is sinful idolatry! Mary was NOT sinless nor was she taken bodily into Heaven, she is not the mediatrix between us & God nor is she "the mother of God"! Christian women are not less than Christian men in God's eyes (Galatians 3v28) BUT men & women have different roles. Paul tells Timothy that women are NOT to be pastors or deacons. There are still roles that only women should do and roles that only men should do. Everything else can go either way. All I am trying to do is point out the Biblical truth and chase away man made heresies, no meanness intened here Libby. :howdy:
If anyone is interested, I conduct a nightly Bible study over Amateur Radio that is also available online at www.thespiritnet.net (http://www.thespiritnet.net) Amateur radio is receivable if you have a shortwave receiver that can pick up 3.905Mhz. We are not on Friday nights because I work at "My Brother's Place" in Waldorf then. We are on at 9pm Saturday-Thursday and the actual study starts at 9:30 and goes until 10:30. email me if you have comments. Thanks!

Read & study more Bavarian. Peter was NOT made a pope by Jesus. The word pope NEVER appears in the Bible. In Matthew 16v18 Jesus said:...you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. The Greek word Peter is "petros" and the next word rock is "petra"- 2 different things. The Apostles helped the church grow but it was built on the ONLY possible foundation that could support it- Jesus!
Next, Peter wasn't the first at the tomb. The women were (Mary Magdalene & another Mary). Read Matthew 28v1. After they heard from the angel, they went back to tell the Apostles what they heard and then Peter & John went there (vs 8).
Strike 3 is your worst statement of all! I couldn't live THINKING/HOPING that I was saved. We Christians can all know that we are saved as in 1 John 5v13. If you need to wait and hope that you are saved you should join the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Amish because they feel the same way you do about salvation. Please don't continue to pray for me because obviously you aren't sure of your salvation and I don't want an unsaved person praying for me. No offense meant, just going by what you say here. :howdy:
Peter was made Pope.
The women did not ENTER the tomb, St. Peter was first to enter.
Your idea of being "saved" now is the sin of Presumption. One can only follow God's will both in Faith and Charity and hope to get into Heaven.
I will still pray for you, the more I read from you, the more I see that you need it. It is especially important that those who were Catholic, remain Catholic as they won't be able to plead ignorance of the Truth.
Modern translations of the Bible have inaccuracies. Use the Rhiems-Douray translation for accuracy.

Peter was made Pope.
The women did not ENTER the tomb, St. Peter was first to enter.
Your idea of being "saved" now is the sin of Presumption. One can only follow God's will both in Faith and Charity and hope to get into Heaven.
I will still pray for you, the more I read from you, the more I see that you need it. It is especially important that those who were Catholic, remain Catholic as they won't be able to plead ignorance of the Truth.
Modern translations of the Bible have inaccuracies. Use the Rhiems-Douray translation for accuracy.
Sin of Presumption? Rhiems-Douray? Hope to get into Heaven? No wonder! God love you my friend. I see that your sources are what's keeping you in the dark. Ask God to save you and open your eyes to the truth. No one should wonder if they're saved when God assures us that we are when we ask Him to. :angel:

Yes, and to your demise, your church elevates her above Jesus which is sinful idolatry! Mary was NOT sinless nor was she taken bodily into Heaven, she is not the mediatrix between us & God nor is she "the mother of God"! Christian women are not less than Christian men in God's eyes (Galatians 3v28) BUT men & women have different roles. Paul tells Timothy that women are NOT to be pastors or deacons. There are still roles that only women should do and roles that only men should do. Everything else can go either way. All I am trying to do is point out the Biblical truth and chase away man made heresies, no meanness intened here Libby. :howdy:
If anyone is interested, I conduct a nightly Bible study over Amateur Radio that is also available online at www.thespiritnet.net (http://www.thespiritnet.net) Amateur radio is receivable if you have a shortwave receiver that can pick up 3.905Mhz. We are not on Friday nights because I work at "My Brother's Place" in Waldorf then. We are on at 9pm Saturday-Thursday and the actual study starts at 9:30 and goes until 10:30. email me if you have comments. Thanks!
There are Scripture passages to support both of our positions, and we could go over them all day and night. So now what? One of us is right, and the other is wrong, about what Scripture says about Peter, Mary, the True Presence and on and on. You are quick to suggest my interpretation is incorrect, but what if the Holy Spirit is leading me to it through my own in depth study and prayer? Are you brazen enough to believe your personal interpretation is infallible?
And what is this "everything else" that you think can go either way?

no problem-o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman3000m
I don't know if you read my response in a previous thread, but the answer is that the Native Americans would have been descended from people who migrated from the original starting point of God's Creation of man; the Middle East. At that time, their societies would either have been pagan or would have been believing in Only One God of Creation. When the native people migrated to America they would have brought their faith-beliefs with them.

I thought i did, but i didnt see how mankind originally descending from the Middle East (this is your contention, not mine, but thats a different fight lol), and then having moved to the "New World" has anything to do with Having Faith in Christ.
Basically your saying they moved over here, with knowledge of the Old Testament and then splintered.
But someone (was it you?) said you had to have Faith in Christ, to be saved. So even if they came over here, with beliefs similiar to the Jews, they (being thousands of miles away) had no ability to know Christ came and existed.

Response: Yes, basically mankind was scattered throughout the world (Tower of Babel incident) but would have already had the previous knowledge of One Creator God. These people (their leaders) willingly chose to try to reach God on their own terms as well as follow pagan gods which they set up for themselves. They took those beliefs to the lands where they settled. Remember that the initial act of belief in the Supreme Creator God is one of Faith that there is Only One God but that belief was replaced with one devised by man – and this through the deception of God’s enemy, Satan, who seeks to keep individuals from trusting God. (Yes, Satan plays a major role in blinding people from the Truth) The Bible calls Satan “the god of this world” who blinds people from knowing the truth.

The fact that the Native Indians were thousands of miles away from the Middle East would not prevent the Creator God from revealing Truth of His existence as His communication with mankind is spiritual. According to the Holy Bible, when Jesus was crucified and entombed for three days He preached to the souls who were imprisoned in Hades and set them free. After His resurrection, He promised that His message would come to man through the Intervention of God’s Spirit of Truth: The Holy Spirit who would emanate from God. I believe that God’s Supernatural and Divine Intervention would have been able to reveal His Truth to any individual who was sincerely seeking to know the Real Truth. I also believe there could have been individuals who received God’s Revelations but who would have been persecuted and/or killed because they were not going along with the pagan program imposed by their leaders. Remember that Native Indian tribal leaders replaced physical pagan gods with “spiritual pagan gods” i.e., god of lightning, god of wind, god of earth, god of water, god of rain, as well as the animist belief that the souls of ancestors existed in living creatures other than humans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman3000m
If any of the tribe remained faithful to the belief and worship of The One God and not paganism, then I believe that God would have honored that faith under the Old Covenant Laws of God that were established and that they would have faithfully lived by. Remember that Salvation is done on a personal basis not a communal basis.

Ok i understand the reasonings, basically if they stayed true to the OT then they were covered. See no problem.

God is Good and Faithful To His Word and would have always responded to whomever personally called on Him for His help in knowing Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman3000m
Now, however, with the comprehension of having to decide between paganism and Monotheism, many social orders (tribes) became more controlled by leaders who imposed pagan practices and the people had to go along with it - with, perhaps, the exception of those who disagreed.

Ok i can see how the first couple of Generations would have gotten in trouble for moving away from the Old Testament, they have direct knowledge yet they ignored it and went Heathen instead.
But what about the 40th Generation down the line, they wouldnt have had any exposure to anything other than praying to the Jaguar God, thats all they and there Forebearers would have known.
So they were "Heathen" because of exposure and environment, this is where Toxic and I got into an issue. I stated if you were only exposed to Islam, then you were most likely going to be a Muslim, its not till your exposed to other beliefs that you even KNOW there could be some other way to pray. I wasnt slamming Toxic (though he took it that way) it just a matter of exposure.
back to the Heathens, if all they know is following Paganistic Heathen Gods, how are they punished for ignorance?

You are correct in the sense of people being “indoctrinated by others” about what to believe. It is only when God Intervenes with His Truth and through the Power of His Holy Spirit that Truth can be comprehended – then it is up to the free-will of the individual whether to retain their “comfort-zone belief” or respond to the Spiritual Revelation. There are many whose Truth of God is revealed through dreams and other ways deemed a “supernatural miracle”. And remember that what is considered “supernatural” to the human intellect is really very Natural to the Quality of a Divine Creator God. Still others are prevented from even considering any other belief because of threats upon their life by those who control them. The Bible mentions how ordinary people are used by God to bring the Salvation Message to others BUT it is the Holy Spirit of God that does the convicting of the heart of the individual in order to bring about the response of whether to believe by faith or not believe that Jesus Is The Son of The Living God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman3000m
I am sure that those tribes had their own atheists and agnostics among their midst who had a difference of opinion.

I'm sure they did too, unfortunately for them, they didnt live where a belief of Freedom of Religion was prevalent.

Yep. Not allowed to exercise and act upon Free Will .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman3000m
God is faithful, knows the heart of mankind and reveals His Truth to those who seek the Truth.

Not to belabor it, but how do they (The Heathen) know there is a "Truth" if all they've known and been taught is the Heathens version of a "One Truth" (not saying thiers is better, just different than your own "One Truth")

While those who trust in Christ as Saviour are given the commission to let others know, it is the work of God’s Holy Spirit that Intervenes and reveals the Truth to those being told about God’s Plan of Salvation. The Bible states that God is willing that No Man should perish and He is patient enough to keep “knocking” on the door of the “Heathen’s” heart until the Free Will response is made by the individual to believe or not believe the path of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ.

That get backs to the Sins, your (Abrahamic) Sins are different than the Heathens. In your opinion, are they (the Heathen) sinning, if they commit an act you think of as Sin yet in their Belief its not?

That actually could get back to the Different Denomination beliefs, since in some its Though Shall not Murder (kill an innocent) and in others its Though Shall not Kill (take anyones life). Is it a Sin if you follow the First example, but another follows the second?
Now i know you'll post that one of those is Correct, but that wasnt the intention of that question.

The Bible states that EVERYBODY is in a sinful state and fall short of the Glory of God because of man’s initial and willful sin of Disobedience and Defiance of God’s Authority. (Man wants to be his own boss and do things his own way.) Thus we are all in the same boat and separated from God until we call upon the path of Salvation that God provided for mankind. Thus, it is up to each individual if they believe in God or not and if so, if they are able to earn and merit their way to heaven by their own good works or if they need the help of Y’shua HaMashiach (Jesus of Nazareth)

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To Do For God.

There are Scripture passages to support both of our positions, and we could go over them all day and night. So now what? One of us is right, and the other is wrong, about what Scripture says about Peter, Mary, the True Presence and on and on. You are quick to suggest my interpretation is incorrect, but what if the Holy Spirit is leading me to it through my own in depth study and prayer? Are you brazen enough to believe your personal interpretation is infallible?
And what is this "everything else" that you think can go either way?
The Holy Spirit will NEVER lead you to anything that contradicts what's written in the Bible Libby. More likely it's that you are NOT listening to Him correctly. None of this is "my personal interpretation". If I don't understand something in the Bible, I usually keep quiet about it or say "I THINK it means this or that". Many people think their understanding is correct but sometimes their study material or teachers have taught them wrong and they run with it. Most things in the Bible are clear, so, on these, I speak with authority. The Catholic doctrines of Mary, the pope and other things are clearly not taught in the Bible but some people refuse to correct their thinking to coincide with it. I point these out to my Catholic friends and they go nuts on me. This is not how we need to be.
This "everthing else" has to do with our ROLES in life, church, etc., that's all. Today too many men are trying to do jobs typically done by women and vice-versa. The example I used was pastors & deacons, 2 jobs that God wants ONLY men to do. Many won't agree, but their argument is with God NOT me.

I'm positive Italian Scallion would be offended with the thought of him thinking he can go "either way" :lmao:

(lol sorry its a 3 day weekend)
:yay: We agree on that! :killingme

Me too. We have common ground :huggy:


Do you not think that is one and the same?


If he got a load of modern day politicians, he would probably not only refuse them communion, but he would run screaming down the street tearing at his own eyeballs.


Explain, please. Religion has a notorious past, but "past" and "heritage" are two different things. The heritage of religion can be modern day Christianity, where you are taught to love your brother, or it can be Islamofascism, where you are taught to kill the infidel.

Which are you talking about?
a joke i am guessing, but wrong either way. notice i said SINCERELY desired communion.

guess heritage vs past is sort of semantics, but either way, religions have been the cause of more murders than anything else on this planet. i'm pretty sure jesus wouldn't have liked that.

Gus,
Do I understand you correctly? You hate most of what the Catholic Church stands for, yet you still attend? Why?
There are so many churches you could go to, shopping until you found one that teaches all you already believe. If you do this, you won't have to change anything about yourself, and you can comfortably sit in the pew without examination of conscience.
The Catholic Church has solid reasons for all that she teaches in the name of Jesus Christ. If you don't like it, make use of the free will God gave you and leave.
I am a woman, just as a previous poster said about herself, and I do not feel one bit slighted by the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I do not believe any other faith raises women, and their roles in society, up as much as the CC does. And, as if you didn't know, who is the single most celebrated created person in all of humanity according to the Catholic Church? I'll give you a hint, it's a woman!
no, you do not understand me correctly. i don't believe i ever said i HATED the catholic church, though i haven't reread my posts, because i do not hate the catholic chruch. i disagree with many of its political, social, and economic views, and how it operates.
i also no longer attend regularly- pretty much just easter/christmas when i'm with my parents. so i have indeed exercised my "free will".

mary is obviously revered, but women still can't become priests, therefore cant become cardinals, and can't become pope. in the day-to-day parish life, yes women are heavily involved. but in the overarching guidance of the church, women are not represented very well, to my knowledge.

the thing is, i believe i am a good person. i have no enemies, am generally very friendly, very forgiving, very patient, etc. but for the catholic church, that's not good enough.

The Holy Spirit will NEVER lead you to anything that contradicts what's written in the Bible Libby. More likely it's that you are NOT listening to Him correctly. None of this is "my personal interpretation". If I don't understand something in the Bible, I usually keep quiet about it or say "I THINK it means this or that". Many people think their understanding is correct but sometimes their study material or teachers have taught them wrong and they run with it. Most things in the Bible are clear, so, on these, I speak with authority. The Catholic doctrines of Mary, the pope and other things are clearly not taught in the Bible but some people refuse to correct their thinking to coincide with it. I point these out to my Catholic friends and they go nuts on me. This is not how we need to be.
This "everthing else" has to do with our ROLES in life, church, etc., that's all. Today too many men are trying to do jobs typically done by women and vice-versa. The example I used was pastors & deacons, 2 jobs that God wants ONLY men to do. Many won't agree, but their argument is with God NOT me.
Well, apparently Scripture wasn't clear enough to the Jews of Jesus' day, that God would send His Son to suffer and die for us. It was was not clear enough even while He was here that He was the Messiah. It wasn't obvious to anyone that He would rise from the dead.
"Many people think their understanding is correct but sometimes their study material or teachers have taught them wrong and they run with it."
I guess this couldn't possibly refer to you.
As for "most things in the Bible are clear". Let's look at this...
(I will paraphrase just a bit, but I'm sure you can look for the exact quotes) From John 6, "You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood", "My Flesh is True Food, my Blood is True Drink", ummmm..."Unless you eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood you have no life in you." Now you may consider the last line about the "spirit" as the defining word through which you interpret this 3 or 4 time reiteration by Jesus Himself that His Flesh and Blood are Truly Present, but you would then be making the passage fit what you want to believe. Jesus Christ does not make a statement about the spirit to negate what He has just repeated over and over.
Now my guess is that you interpret this passage differently from me, and you will say your position is just as clear as I say mine is. I repeat, one of us is wrong. The True Presence of Christ is clearly NOT contradicted by the words of Christ Himself, and any verses through the rest of the NT must be interpreted in light of Christ's words. The apostles words illuminate Christ's, not the other way around.
As I said before, we can go on and on.
If you've ever thought that the Bible taught "A", and then determined that you were mistaken and that it actually says, "B", then you cannot say that the Bible is either clear, or that the Holy Spirit can be heard as with human ears.

no, you do not understand me correctly. i don't believe i ever said i HATED the catholic church, though i haven't reread my posts, because i do not hate the catholic chruch. i disagree with many of its political, social, and economic views, and how it operates.
i also no longer attend regularly- pretty much just easter/christmas when i'm with my parents. so i have indeed exercised my "free will".

mary is obviously revered, but women still can't become priests, therefore cant become cardinals, and can't become pope. in the day-to-day parish life, yes women are heavily involved. but in the overarching guidance of the church, women are not represented very well, to my knowledge.

the thing is, i believe i am a good person. i have no enemies, am generally very friendly, very forgiving, very patient, etc. but for the catholic church, that's not good enough.
As a mother, I probably have the single greatest influence on the formation of my children (some are boys), and therefore what/how they will lead/teach when they are adults. I am well represented.
Anti Catholics like to present priests, bishops, cardinals and the pope as having some sort of authority that is authoritarian. They lead, they define doctrine, but never have they come into my home to force me to obey anything, I have the free will God gave me. You are not forced to obey any one of the CC's tenets, so you have no reason to complain.
Many, many people see the teachings of Jesus Christ through the CC as a tremendous gift in the crazy, narcissitic, self-absorbed world we live in today. Many of us see her steadfastness in the face of popular opinions and pressure as proof of Divine protection.
It's great that you are nice, patient, and good. As for not having enemies, I don't think that defines anyone's position before the Lord. Jesus Christ and the Apostles had enemies a plenty, and it wasn't for a lack of kindness on their part.
We are called to be holy, and that does not come easily for our fallen human natures.

They You are not forced to obey any one of the CC's tenets, so you have no reason to complain.

If you are Catholic, you must accept all the tenets and rules of the Faith. The cafeteria is closed!

If you are Catholic, you must accept all the tenets and rules of the Faith. The cafeteria is closed!
I agree with you 100%. I'm speaking only to the OP who clearly does not follow or appreciate all that Holy Mother Church teaches.

As for "most things in the Bible are clear". Let's look at this...
(I will paraphrase just a bit, but I'm sure you can look for the exact quotes) From John 6, "You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood", "My Flesh is True Food, my Blood is True Drink", ummmm..."Unless you eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood you have no life in you." Now you may consider the last line about the "spirit" as the defining word through which you interpret this 3 or 4 time reiteration by Jesus Himself that His Flesh and Blood are Truly Present, but you would then be making the passage fit what you want to believe.

Hi libby,

Interesting that you should post those paraphrased verses from scripture because a Catholic friend of mine commented that he was taught that during Communion, the wafers given to the parishioner actually become the "flesh" of Christ and the "wine" (grape juice?) actually turns to the "blood of Christ" as they are ingested.

Is that true, or, is that a heretical Catholic church he attends?

Communion in the true sense of the Word and by which Jesus shared with the Apostles at the Last Supper was only symbolic and not literal, as to the remembrance of Jesus' Life and Atonement.

My friend stated that he honestly believes wafers become flesh and the "wine" literally becomes the Blood of Christ.

Well, apparently Scripture wasn't clear enough to the Jews of Jesus' day, that God would send His Son to suffer and die for us.

Hi libby,

Remember that the New Testament Scripture was not yet written and all the Jews had to base their expectation of a Messiah upon was what was already revealed and prophesied to them in the Torah/Talmud (Old Testament).

Also remember that All of the 12 Apostles of Christ were all Jews, as were the first several thousand men, women and children followers who believed in Jesus as being their Messiah and Son of the Living God. It was the Jewish religious leaders who would not accept Jesus because they did not expect a pacifist Messiah making claim to be The Son of God - which was considered blasphemy in Judaism. The fact is that the Jewish leaders, Saducees and Pharisees wanted a military human leader who would defeat the Gentile Romans and establish God's Kingdom as prophesied. They claimed that their allegiance to God was only based on what they were taught by Moses:

Yet, Jesus tried to tell the Jewish leaders who He really was as noted in John, Chapter 5:

39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40: And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41: I receive not honour from men.
42: But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43: I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44: How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45: Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46: For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The main point of Jesus not being accepted, however, is because it was God's Plan that Jesus had to offer His Life as the Blood Atonement for the sins of mankind and Jesus willingly gave His Life for that purpose. Christ's crucifixion had to be as Ordained by God.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (John 12:27)

It was was not clear enough even while He was here that He was the Messiah.

Actually, It was revealed to the Apostles and the people who believed in Him after seeing the miracles that He performed. Again, the only ones who could not comprehend were the adamant religious leaders who scorned Christ and abhored the fact that He was gathering quite a following of converts to His teaching.

It wasn't obvious to anyone that He would rise from the dead.

True. Even Christ's Apostles who walked with Jesus were unable to grasp that part about His Resurrection. It was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary who first went to visit Christ's tomb on the third day to pay reverence when Christ appeared and told them to go tell the others that He had risen just like He said He would. ( Matthew 28:1-20 )

Then Christ appeared in His Resurrected form for forty days and had appeared to more than 500 disciples prior to His ascension into Heaven:

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Acts 1:3)

Paul's Account in ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 )

1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7: After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8: And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


So, today Christ's Truth is revealed through the Intervention of The Holy Spirit:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

Truth is Revealed by God's Holy Spirit; NOT by any man:

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Hi libby,

Interesting that you should post those paraphrased verses from scripture because a Catholic friend of mine commented that he was taught that during Communion, the wafers given to the parishioner actually become the "flesh" of Christ and the "wine" (grape juice?) actually turns to the "blood of Christ" as they are ingested.

Is that true, or, is that a heretical Catholic church he attends?

Communion in the true sense of the Word and by which Jesus shared with the Apostles at the Last Supper was only symbolic and not literal, as to the remembrance of Jesus' Life and Atonement.

My friend stated that he honestly believes wafers become flesh and the "wine" literally becomes the Blood of Christ.
I will apologize in advance if you are asking with sincerity.
I find it hard to believe that you have Catholic friends, and a very staunch faith of your own, and you are telling me this subject has not come up. This is a critical piece of doctrine that separates Catholics and Protestants/Bible Christians, and if you've engaged in any real study of Christian apologetics, then you have heard of the True Presence and you are trying to bait me.
I know my faith well, but I do not have the time to spend on this forum going over the entire salvation history and the Biblical support for the CC position. Such an endevour will segue into authority, history, early church fathers, and on and on.
If, perhaps, you are new to apologetics and have asked an honest question, I repeat, I am sorry for jumping the gun. You will find web sites such as www.scripturecatholic.com
and
www.salvationhistory.com
very helpful in explaining Catholic teaching to you.
The purpose of my earlier post was to point out to Italian Scallion that his/her statement about clarity of Truth in the Bible is erroneous, and for now I am sticking to that.

I will apologize in advance if you are asking with sincerity.
I find it hard to believe that you have Catholic friends, and a very staunch faith of your own, and you are telling me this subject has not come up. This is a critical piece of doctrine that separates Catholics and Protestants/Bible Christians, and if you've engaged in any real study of Christian apologetics, then you have heard of the True Presence and you are trying to bait me.
I know my faith well, but I do not have the time to spend on this forum going over the entire salvation history and the Biblical support for the CC position. Such an endevour will segue into authority, history, early church fathers, and on and on.
If, perhaps, you are new to apologetics and have asked an honest question, I repeat, I am sorry for jumping the gun. You will find web sites such as www.scripturecatholic.com
and
www.salvationhistory.com
very helpful in explaining Catholic teaching to you.
The purpose of my earlier post was to point out to Italian Scallion that his/her statement about clarity of Truth in the Bible is erroneous, and for now I am sticking to that.

I asked in honest sincerity because from the comment in your paraphrase I thought you were poking fun at that teaching my friend had talked about and that it was not really part of the RCC Doctrine. It's where you wrote the following comment to ItalianScallion:

"My Flesh is True Food, my Blood is True Drink", ummmm..."Unless you eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood you have no life in you."

BTW: Believe it or not, I have many friends of ALL faiths and love them with the love that Jesus wants us each to have toward mankind - even toward those who speak and think unkindly of me.

(Matthew 5:43-48)

43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I personally apologize if you are upset with what I asked but I will be honest and state that I cannot agree with the RCC position on that at all that the wafers literally turn to Christ's flesh and the wine (grape juice?) literally turns to the Blood of Christ.

I stand by the position of Faith that I hold and in regard to the Communion:

Communion in the true sense of the Word and by which Jesus shared with the Apostles at the Last Supper was only symbolic and not literal, as to the remembrance of Jesus' Life and Atonement.

The Bread and Wine are transformed into the Body andBlood of Christ, Transubstaniation. But only when a truly ordained Priest of the Catholic Church utters the words "This is My Body" "This is My Blood". It is not symbolic and therefore Christ is Truly Present in all the Tabernacles of all the Churches in the world until the end of time. Remember Churches, not Protestant worship spaces.
There are many instances of miracles where the consecrated Host has turned into Flesh. Look them up.

From John 6, "You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood", "My Flesh is True Food, my Blood is True Drink", ummmm..."Unless you eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood you have no life in you." Now you may consider the last line about the "spirit" as the defining word through which you interpret this 3 or 4 time reiteration by Jesus Himself that His Flesh and Blood are Truly Present, but you would then be making the passage fit what you want to believe. Jesus Christ does not make a statement about the spirit to negate what He has just repeated over and over.
Now my guess is that you interpret this passage differently from me, and you will say your position is just as clear as I say mine is. I repeat, one of us is wrong. The True Presence of Christ is clearly NOT contradicted by the words of Christ Himself, and any verses through the rest of the NT must be interpreted in light of Christ's words.
A big part of the problems I've encountered comes from "too literal" of an interpretation of Scripture. Jesus even said "cut off your right hand & pluck out your eye" but didn't mean it literally. If you read on to verse 63 you see that THE WORDS Jesus spoke are spirit & life. To think we are to eat human flesh & drink human blood is FAR from what Jesus taught. Nor did Jesus MEAN that the Apostles were literally eating His flesh & blood. That goes against God's teachings. His presence AT communion, OK, but a literal turning into His body & blood, doesn't happen. Communion is a rememberance of what Christ did years ago and a re-affirmation of our acceptance of Him into our lives at some prior time. Eating the cracker & juice never literally means we are swallowing Christ AS SOME BELIEVE. For the "priest" to say at communion "this is the lamb of God..." is serious heresy. Jesus said many things that confused the Jews because they weren't going to believe anyway (Luke 8v10). I just wanted to dialogue on this with you Libby. At no time will I infer that you aren't saved. We'll just disagree on some things as I do with many folks about these things. Have a great day :flowers: :flowers:

The Bread and Wine are transformed into the Body andBlood of Christ, Transubstaniation. But only when a truly ordained Priest of the Catholic Church utters the words "This is My Body" "This is My Blood". It is not symbolic and therefore Christ is Truly Present in all the Tabernacles of all the Churches in the world until the end of time. Remember Churches, not Protestant worship spaces.
There are many instances of miracles where the consecrated Host has turned into Flesh. Look them up.
It looks like your karma has turned into blood also. Sorry my friend, but your statement is unbiblical just the Rhiems-Douray book is. Read the Bible and see that the repititous act of the "mass" is a reenactment of what Jesus DID AWAY WITH on the cross and also read that any saved person is a "priest". What's with "only when a truly ordained priest of the Catholic Church utters the words"? Sounds like blind indoctrination my friend. Remove the veil, see the light.

The Bread and Wine are transformed into the Body andBlood of Christ, Transubstaniation. But only when a truly ordained Priest of the Catholic Church utters the words "This is My Body" "This is My Blood". It is not symbolic and therefore Christ is Truly Present in all the Tabernacles of all the Churches in the world until the end of time. Remember Churches, not Protestant worship spaces.
There are many instances of miracles where the consecrated Host has turned into Flesh. Look them up.

Question #1 When Christ broke the bread and gave it to His disciples to eat, did it actually turn to His flesh at that time?

"...The Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Question #2 When Christ took the cup and gave it to His disciples to drink from, did it actually turn to His Blood at that time?

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the New Testament in my Blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

Bible Refererence (1 Corinthians 11:23-25)

Question #3 If the RCC teaching is true, then it stands to reason that the disciples would have also had their bread and wine turn to flesh and blood at the moment Christ served each of them. Did that happen, or was Jesus speaking symbolically of Himself being the Bread of Life whose Blood Atones for the sins of mankind and this was to be a symbolic remembrance?

Question #4 If the bread and wine did not turn to real flesh and blood when Jesus Christ The Son of The Living God served it to His Disciples, as only a "remembrance," how could it do so by the act of any religious leader?
Would the religious leader thus be able to display a greater manifestation than Christ?

It looks like your karma has turned into blood also. Sorry my friend, but your statement is unbiblical just the Rhiems-Douray book is. Read the Bible and see that the repititous act of the "mass" is a reenactment of what Jesus DID AWAY WITH on the cross and also read that any saved person is a "priest". What's with "only when a truly ordained priest of the Catholic Church utters the words"? Sounds like blind indoctrination my friend. Remove the veil, see the light.
The Rhiems-Douray Bible translation is the only valid one. Your proplem is you are using false translations.
The Bread and Wine consecrated by Jesus at the Last Supper was indeed His Body and Blood.
This discussion is hopeless with you people who persist in your unbelief.
May God have mercy on you!

The Rhiems-Douray Bible translation is the only valid one. Your proplem is you are using false translations.
The Bread and Wine consecrated by Jesus at the Last Supper was indeed His Body and Blood.
This discussion is hopeless with you people who persist in your unbelief.
May God have mercy on you!


Which brings us back Full Circle to the original question of this thread and my original response:

Catholicism, like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Various "Christian" Denominations, etc. will remain in effect until Y'shua HaMaschiah returns to remind people that it is NOT religion that brings people closer to God but a personal spiritual relationship with The Creator.

Well hath Esaias prophesied - these people worship me with their lips
( canned prayers -rituals and traditions) BUT their hearts are far from Me.

Reference (Mark 7:6-9)

Which brings us back Full Circle to the original question of this thread and my original response:

Catholicism, like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Various "Christian" Denominations, etc. will remain in effect until Y'shua HaMaschiah returns to remind people that it is NOT religion that brings people closer to God but a personal spiritual relationship with The Creator.

Well hath Esaias prophesied - these people worship me with their lips
( canned prayers -rituals and traditions) BUT their hearts are far from Me.

Reference (Mark 7:6-9)

Well, the original question of the thread was "when will Catholicism die", with a lamentation by the OP who does not like the current pope.
The Catholic faith will not die, it has been promised that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)
The Catholic Church has been loved by some, reviled by others, for 2000 years now. It's doctrines have remained true and unchanging in spite of all the sinners and saints in her fold.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with what is being spoken of in Matthew 16:18, we shall all find out for sure at our particular judgement.
And as for a personal relationship, it just doesn't get more personal that receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, the original question of the thread was "when will Catholicism die", with a lamentation by the OP who does not like the current pope.
The Catholic faith will not die, it has been promised that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)
The Catholic Church has been loved by some, reviled by others, for 2000 years now. It's doctrines have remained true and unchanging in spite of all the sinners and saints in her fold.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with what is being spoken of in Matthew 16:18, we shall all find out for sure at our particular judgement.
And as for a personal relationship, it just doesn't get more personal that receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Regarding Communion:
OK - the difference we have is between the "literal" and "symbolic" interpretation whether the bread literally turns to Jesus' Flesh and the wine (grape juice?) turns to Jesus' Blood - as a remembrance of Christ being The Bread of Life and Saviour whose shed Blood Atones for the sins of those who accept Him by faith.

While we can agree that "Communion" is done in remembrance (as Jesus said) we are told that a person must not take Communion "lightly" and participate ONLY if he/she has examined one's personal life, harbours no contempt for others, seeks God's Divine Guidance Daily and is willing to be repentant of any obstacle that comes between having a personal spiritual walk with God. The Holy Bible states that to take Communion lightly is actually considered a DISHONOR to Christ.
The following verses explain the matter from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 11:

26: For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27: Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28: But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29: For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30: For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31: For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32: But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33: Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34: And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

The question is, at the time you are taking Communion, are you really truly spiritually right with God and a loving friend to all people, including family, co-workers, neighbors, strangers?

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-48)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Be not carried about with diverse and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
(Hebrews 13:8-9)

The Rhiems-Douray Bible translation is the only valid one. Your proplem is you are using false translations.
The Bread and Wine consecrated by Jesus at the Last Supper was indeed His Body and Blood. :popcorn: It does not make any difference if one believes that or the opposite when one treats other people with contempt (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/contempt), Link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:29-31;&version=9;).This discussion is hopeless with you people who persist in your unbelief.
May God have mercy on you! :popcorn: I say it is not their "unbelief" but rather it is their religious intolerance and religious bigotry. :jameo:

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.
Excellently put. My thoughts exactly.

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.


Hi libby,

I am glad that you comprehend how one should come before the Lord and be prayerfully prepared prior to partaking of Communion, as it states in the noted scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

On this we agree.

jeez what happened to my thread.

honestly no one else has ANY issues with the Catholic Church? Does the Pope post here? because this would make the first ever gathering of catholics that i have ever met that have no issues with the Church.

jeez what happened to my thread.

honestly no one else has ANY issues with the Catholic Church? Does the Pope post here? because this would make the first ever gathering of catholics that i have ever met that have no issues with the Church.


Apparently, there are more here who appreciate the Church. :jameo:
You may get plenty of bashing from non-Catholics, but if you're looking for fellow so-called Catholics to commiserate with you, maybe you are in the wrong place! (although I do believe there are some here somewhere!)

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the four marks of the True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Therefore, as Dominus Jesu stated, other faith communities are defective. The Protestant faith communities are many, they are not one. They are not Apostolic since they rejected Apostolic Succession. The Schizmatic Churches of the Eastern Rite still have the Truth also.
Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope. One has to submit to the Pope to gain salvation. It has been argued whether anyone can gain Heaven now that the Holy Roman Empire is no more and people are under secular regimes.
It is necessary to establish the Social Kingship of Christ on Earth with His Mother as Queen.

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.


There ya' go, Gus! You got your wish!

The word pope NEVER appears in the Bible.

Neither does the word TRINITY, but Christians the world over believe it. :duh:

As for interpetations of Matthew 16 I think Libby answered that already, so I'll save the bandwidth.

However, once any denomination coerces people into believing theirs is the exclusive church membership that "guarantees" Salvation is where the division begins.

Unfortunately, today's organized religions and assorted denominations place "conditions" on Salvation apart from genuine repentance and personal Faith in Christ.

The Catholic Church doesn't guarantee salvation. Such a thing seems to be reserved for Sola Scriptura Protestants. The Catholic Church guarantees that you have the tools for redemption if you but want it, any one persons salvation remains to be seen.

I discern a difference between "believe in" and "faith in" and the difference is profound.

Uh yeah, and you previously discerned that I was Lucifer. :rolleyes:

Compliments of Dictionary.com:

Faith-noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Belief-noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Uh hmmmm.

The Catholic Church doesn't guarantee salvation. Such a thing seems to be reserved for Sola Scriptura Protestants. The Catholic Church guarantees that you have the tools for redemption if you but want it, any one persons salvation remains to be seen.

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.

It's just too much to ask for us to get on our knees in thanks for Christ's sacrifice! The liturgy MUST be changed to be more entertaining! No steadfast serious worship of God, holding hands and singing Kumbaya will do just fine! :jameo:

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

Yes, the fullness of Christ's truth is found in the teachings of the Apostolic church. Those who are outside it do not have the full truth but only a part of it, whether they be Prostestants, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

I was born again when I was baptized, a sacrament I would never have received had it not been for the Church. I am also born again each time I confess my sins and receive Christ in Eucharist.

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

I'm interested in the bold, red lettering used. Is a man who is "born again" guaranteed salvation, or can he still lose his salvation?

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church established by Jesus Christ. However, being baptized or confirmed into it does not guarantee salvation any more than having stood face to face with the Messiah and heard His call is a guarantee. Remember the rich, young man, remember the 2nd thief, remember Judas, remember the disciples in Jn 6? All had the free will to follow Him, or reject that Truth which is Him Alone.
You and I have that same choice, every day. We may follow Him for awhile and be in His Grace, but then the teaching becomes too hard and we walk away.

Hi libby,

Thank you for your excellent questions and, yes, there are answers.

I'm interested in the bold, red lettering used. Is a man who is "born again" guaranteed salvation, or can he still lose his salvation?

According to the Holy Bible: Jesus said this of those who are Born-Again:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:28-29)

And when a person is truly Born-Again, he/she is sealed by The Holy Spirit that comes to indwell the life of the believer and gives a renewed life in Christ. Changes happen in the person's life and if they have truly been sealed by the Promise of The Holy Spirit they do not lose their salvation.

Ephesians, Chapter 1:

12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15: Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16: Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

2 Corinthians, Chapter 1:
21: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

While a true Born-Again Believer who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit will not lose Salvation, he/she still retains free will that determines how near or far one is from seeking and being obedient to God on a daily basis:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesian 4:30)

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church established by Jesus Christ.

When Jesus spoke of His Church, He signified the Spiritual Church i.e. Spiritual Body of Believers comprised by any and all who admit that they are sinful, repent and accept by faith God's Promise of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ. Born-Again is receiving the Spiritual Renewing that brings true Peace, Love and Joy in the heart and life of God's Children - even in the midst of adversities:

John 14:
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18: I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17)

However, being baptized or confirmed into it does not guarantee salvation any more than having stood face to face with the Messiah and heard His call is a guarantee. Remember the rich, young man, remember the 2nd thief, remember Judas, remember the disciples in Jn 6? All had the free will to follow Him, or reject that Truth which is Him Alone.

Exactly Right! That is why there are many people attending church purely on the basis that they sincerely believe they are attending the "True Church" and just by doing so they will be seen in God's Favor. Not so. God deals with the individual's heart and His Spirit discerns who is really sincere in seeking His Guidance and who is just going through the "religious motions". Also, one needs to test the spirit of the Doctrine being taught to see whether it is True to God's Truth or if it is mixed in with religious distortions imposed by church leaders. Remember also how Jesus chastised the religious leaders of His Day because they were leading people away from the simplicity of God's Truth?

Here are just a few examples:

Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:46-47)


Matthew, Chapter 15:
10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12: Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13: But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16: And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17: Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

People who are seeking a close walk with God are warned of the following:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)


You and I have that same choice, every day.
We may follow Him for awhile and be in His Grace, but then the teaching becomes too hard and we walk away.

God's teaching is never too hard, libby, it is Joy, Peace and Comfort to the soul. Yes, in human terms (emotions and reasoning) we could easily find God's teaching hard and many do because they need the spiritual guidance that Jesus spoke about through the Holy Spirit and this when one is truly Born-Again:


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(John 14:26)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke 12:11-12)

And the Eternal Promises of God:

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

Salvation is received By Faith in God's Plan, not man's plan:

John, Chapter 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Comforting Words from The Lord Jesus Christ:
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27)