My brother and I just waterboarded each other... yup, it's torture.. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2156425)

My brother and I just waterboarded each other... yup, it's torture.. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2156425)

Can someone tell these dip####s that nothing is fair in war???

From the article: So I could see after several times how somebody would spill their guts about anything just to make it stop.

Thats the object of the game dipstick.

Its not that hard to figure out. You want information. you get it.

If 20 seconds of some terrorist azzhole thinking he is drowning saves one American life , its worth it. Why does that bother these people so much?

I think they should try it again :yay:

I think they should try it again :yay:

:yeahthat:

for like 320 seconds:yay:

:roflmao:

Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

Can someone tell these dip####s that nothing is fair in war???

When Congress ratifies treaties it becomes law. If in the treaty we agree torture is illegal during war, or even during peace, then it is the law in America that we cannot torture.

From the article: So I could see after several times how somebody would spill their guts about anything just to make it stop.

Thats the object of the game dipstick.

Its not that hard to figure out. You want information. you get it.

If 20 seconds of some terrorist azzhole thinking he is drowning saves one American life , its worth it. Why does that bother these people so much?

Numerous proffesionals in the field say that more often than not you get false information. They will say whatever they can to get the torture to stop and that includes making stuff up.

http://carlosmencia.com/content/videos.php?id=8

This about sums it up......

.... i slipped and rachems balls were on my neck ..........


:whistle:

So people give false information---the first time---- you check it out, then you come back and board them again. Sooner or later they get the message and you get good information.

Numerous proffesionals in the field say that more often than not you get false information. They will say whatever they can to get the torture to stop and that includes making stuff up.

Depends on who you are torturing..

Our "professionals" are told to hold out as long as possible, but TRY to make it 24 hours so your comrades in arms can change or protect assets you know about. We know, and expect, even the best trained to not have the ability to withstand torture for more than just a few hours.

We are told NOT to lie, as our lies can reveal more truth than just telling them what we know.. but to TRY not to reveal anything for 24 hours..

Now imagine a terrorsist that is not only well trained, but can barely read or write.. and honestly thinks we are the devil incarnate.. We aren't talking about the Soviet Spetsnatz here..

I don't have any sympathy for them, they get treated much better than they deserve. Here is one of the reasons why I think this way: Eugene Armstrong Beheading Video (http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/beheading-video-eugene-armstrong.html)

Numerous proffesionals in the field say that more often than not you get false information.

And other professionals say it's an effective interrogation technique.

What's your point?

When Congress ratifies treaties it becomes law. If in the treaty we agree torture is illegal during war, or even during peace, then it is the law in America that we cannot torture.

That's not the problem. The problem is defining what is torture. Liberals have a such a loose definition of torture that yelling at someone could be construed as torture because it made the captive cry and is marred for life.

Carlos Mencia - Mind Of Mencia (http://carlosmencia.com/content/videos.php?id=8)

This about sums it up......
ROTFLAMO!!!!!:lmao::killingme:lmao:
I agree

That's not the problem. The problem is defining what is torture. Liberals have a such a loose definition of torture that yelling at someone could be construed as torture because it made the captive cry and is marred for life.

Heck I was just reading "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" on Wiki. It says that things like removing citizenship was considered cruel and unusual. What a load of crap. You can KILL the guy, but you can't take away his citizenship.

Awesome rant, I give it a 9.5/10. Seriously though, I feel the same way.

Awesome rant,

Yes, it was. Too bad it had to be removed for obscenities. :tap:

Yes, it was. Too bad it had to be removed for obscenities. :tap:

Yup, I knew that was coming.

if I had a choice, I still think I'd pick "water-boarding" over beheading.. but that's just me.

So people give false information---the first time---- you check it out, then you come back and board them again. Sooner or later they get the message and you get good information.
Wasted resources do not save American lives.
If they are innocent, the only information they will give that implicates them will be false and will not save an American life.
We will have tortured for nothing. If we save one American life torturing people, then we will have lost a part of our humanity in their place.

Yes, it was. Too bad it had to be removed for obscenities. :tap:

I thought I **'ed out all the obscenities... can't it be edited?

If we save one American life torturing people, then we will have lost a part of our humanity in their place.

What if we save 3,000 American lives.. or 10,000..

How about One MILLION!???

Would one million American lives be worthy of torturing a single terrorist?

That's not the problem. The problem is defining what is torture. Liberals have a such a loose definition of torture that yelling at someone could be construed as torture because it made the captive cry and is marred for life.

Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

This is part of the law in America because it is the treaty Congress ratified: Article 1
1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions....



....Article 16
1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm)

If you don't like the way the law is in America, then get Congress to pull out of the treaty.

...We will have tortured for nothing. If we save one American life torturing people, then we will have lost a part of our humanity in their place.

I haven't seen any evidence of what I would consider torture. How do you define torture? Have you watched the videos of the beheadings? You are not going to talk these animals into repenting. When they come for your family, will you be so concerned with their hurt feelings and discomfort?

What if we save 3,000 American lives.. or 10,000..

How about One MILLION!???

Would one million American lives be worthy of torturing a single terrorist?As I said before in another thread, if it is obvious a terrorist is guilty and has information which will save American lives, then I am sure the agent will torture him for the info. By doing so he or she will be breaking the law and go to prison for a long time. That is a true sacrifice and I would applaud them for making the sacfrifice for our country and society.
But to have the government, which is a representation of our society to order the torture or to have it legal is unconscionable.

Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

This is part of the law in America because it is the treaty Congress ratified: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm)

If you don't like the way the law is in America, then get Congress to pull out of the treaty.

Again, how many American lives is it worth to follow this treaty word for word??

If you knew there was a nuke planted somewhere in Manhattan and you had the person who planted it.. You'd just let the nuke pop while he was eating his Lobster Bisque and broiled Mussels in his cell?

As I said before in another thread, if it is obvious a terrorist is guilty and has information which will save American lives, then I am sure the agent will torture him for the info. By doing so he or she will be breaking the law and go to prison for a long time. That is a true sacrifice and I would applaud them for making the sacfrifice for our country and society.
But to have the government, which is a representation of our society to order the torture or to have it legal is unconscionable.

So it's OK and admirable for a battlefield commander to determine the importance and deem it necessary, but it's unconscionable for a president to do the same? To protect American citizens?

granted we'll never know how many Americans were saved, but what if it could be proven that the "signed off" torture actually saved 50,000 American lives.. I'd say our President would deserve a medal and a statue of his own for standing up for what was right.

What if he didn't OK that had to be done, and the 50,000 did die? Than what.. He could be proud of the fact.. "Yes, my fellow Amercans, 50,000 of us died today, but you can sleep sound tonight knowing that we did not torture anyone to prevent it!!"

I don't follow your reasoning.

Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

This is part of the law in America because it is the treaty Congress ratified: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm)

If you don't like the way the law is in America, then get Congress to pull out of the treaty.

Perhaps you’d like to give me your definition of pain and suffering. Define to me what is cruel, inhumane or degrading. Me calling JPC an idiot could easily fall under these guidelines. My kid claims that me yelling at him causes mental distress and pain and suffering. Should I be arrested for violating this law? You think I’m being petty about this but who gets to decide Novus? All it takes is a savvy terrorist with a lawyer to say anything our interrogators do can be construed as torture. So please, specifically tell me what interrogation tactics fall under the definition of torture? Where is the line drawn? Otherwise throwing a bunch of vague legal verbiage does not clear this up.

I have to tell you, unless it’s someone that is close to you (like a child or other relative) that is in trouble or their life is threatened will you truly understand the real purpose behind harsh interrogation tactics. Until then, it only serves you as a political tool to castigate this administration and undermine the war. These tactics have been used for decades without a peep. Suddenly, now that we have a GOP president executing a war, and requires these tools to save American lives, you liberals have a problem with it. I tell you, have Chelsea Clinton kidnapped by terrorists and see how fast President Hillary signs into law the legalization of waterboarding and other harsh tactics. And every liberal will be right on that train with her.

I haven't seen any evidence of what I would consider torture. How do you define torture? Have you watched the videos of the beheadings? You are not going to talk these animals into repenting. When they come for your family, will you be so concerned with their hurt feelings and discomfort?Stooping to their level is not the American way, so please spare us the beheading references unless you are suggesting we become like the monsters.

This approximately 27 year old male civilian, presumed Iraqi national, died in US custody approximately 72 hours after being apprehended. By report, physical force was required during his initial apprehension during a raid. During his confinement, he was hooded, sleep deprived, and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood.

http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/13279.pdf

Stooping to their level is not the American way, so please spare us the beheading references unless you are suggesting we become like the monsters.



http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/13279.pdf

How lame. You compare us using waterboarding to extract intelligence information to their torturous tactics (like beheadings), all to be broadcast across the globe, to inflict global fear is nothing less than ignorant.

Perhaps you’d like to give me your definition of pain and suffering. Define to me what is cruel, inhumane or degrading. Me calling JPC an idiot could easily fall under these guidelines. My kid claims that me yelling at him causes mental distress and pain and suffering. Should I be arrested for violating this law? You think I’m being petty about this but who gets to decide Novus? All it takes is a savvy terrorist with a lawyer to say anything our interrogators do can be construed as torture. So please, specifically tell me what interrogation tactics fall under the definition of torture? Where is the line drawn? Otherwise throwing a bunch of vague legal verbiage does not clear this up.



This is not at the low level of yelling at someone or calling them names. Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

I have to tell you, unless it’s someone that is close to you (like a child or other relative) that is in trouble or their life is threatened will you truly understand the real purpose behind harsh interrogation tactics. I already said if there is a need for torture to save a life, then I am sure the agent willing to save a life by breaking that law will willingily sacrifice their freedom in order to do so. I have faith in our agents will do so if called.

Making torture legal, sanctioned or even ordered leads to abuse and innocent people can die, innocent people's lives can be demolished,and our humanity falls to a lower level approaching thiers. I always thought we were supposed to be better than the terrorist scum.

Until then, it only serves you as a political tool to castigate this administration and undermine the war. These tactics have been used for decades without a peep. The treaty I cited making it illegal I believe is only ten years old. You don't like the law, get Congress to pull out of the treaty.

Suddenly, now that we have a GOP president executing a war, and requires these tools to save American lives, you liberals have a problem with it. Get this straight!! If it was Clinton, Carter or Kennedy I would be just as appalled. Get that through your biased, partisan, Bush apologist head.

How lame. You compare us using waterboarding to extract intelligence information to their torturous tactics (like beheadings), all to be broadcast across the globe, to inflict global fear is nothing less than ignorant.
Using the behaeding video to excuse torture on ANY level is bringing us closer to their barbarity. If that is what you want, then that is what is lame.

Again, how many American lives is it worth to follow this treaty word for word??

The process for ratifying treaties and the declaration that a ratified treaty is American law is a part of the Constitution. You may as well ask how many American lives is it worth to follow the Constitution word for word.

If you knew there was a nuke planted somewhere in Manhattan and you had the person who planted it.. You'd just let the nuke pop while he was eating his Lobster Bisque and broiled Mussels in his cell? Oh no, I would torture his sorry ass with the worst possible methods known to man....and I would also expect to go to prison for it because it is against the law to do so. I would gladly sacrifice my personal freedom to save lives and I would gladly go to prison for doing so to preserve the sanctity of our society that says torture is barbaric.

So it's OK and admirable for a battlefield commander to determine the importance and deem it necessary, but it's unconscionable for a president to do the same? To protect American citizens?

It is unconsionable for the government to order it, especially against its own laws. The battlefield commander would be surrendering his freedom as a sacrifice in order to get the information and if the president did so then he too is breaking the law of our country.

granted we'll never know how many Americans were saved, but what if it could be proven that the "signed off" torture actually saved 50,000 American lives.. I'd say our President would deserve a medal and a statue of his own for standing up for what was right.

What if he didn't OK that had to be done, and the 50,000 did die? Than what.. He could be proud of the fact.. "Yes, my fellow Amercans, 50,000 of us died today, but you can sleep sound tonight knowing that we did not torture anyone to prevent it!!"

I don't follow your reasoning. Would it be ok to torture 50,000 people just to save one American life? What if some of them were innocent, or what if some of them died?

Would it be ok to torture 50,000 people just to save one American life?
Yes!
What if some of them were innocent, or what if some of them died?
Too bad!


So far, though, I haven't heard of them doing anything I would consider "torture", at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or anywhere else. Panties on the head isn't really the same as paring off skin bit by bit with a potato peeler.

Chopping off fingers, one knuckle at a time, would be a great torture. Even plucking chest/pubic/armpit hairs would be better than that "standing on a box" thing they did at Abu Ghraib.

So far, though, I haven't heard of them doing anything I would consider "torture", at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or anywhere else. Panties on the head isn't really the same as paring off skin bit by bit with a potato peeler.
Bararous practices leads to proliferation of abuse and barberous society.
Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse. The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths.

In some instances, testimony shows, it was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.

The Times obtained a copy of the file from a person involved in the investigation who was critical of the methods used at Bagram and the military's response to the deaths.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?pagewanted=print

Imagine if another country had the attitude you had and tortured 50,000 Americans among which were innocents. YOu would be calling them beasts and monsters while calling for war.
Now you said that some innocents being tortured is ok to save on American life, but what if some of those innocents tortured to death are Americans? What if it you were one of the American innocents tortured? Still think it is ok? Where are you willing to draw the line with innocent's blood burtally shed in our name to save a few more American lives than were lost to torture?

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

No one wants to turn millitary brigs into Club Med here. But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.

Getting Waterboarded // Current (http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04399)

This is part of the law in America because it is the treaty Congress ratified: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cat.htm)

If you don't like the way the law is in America, then get Congress to pull out of the treaty.
Yes it was ratified but with a list of reservations such as -The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following understandings, which shall apply to the obligations of the United States under this Convention:

(1) (a) That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

(b) That the United States understands that the definition of torture in article 1 is intended to apply only to acts directed against persons in the offender's custody or physical control.OHCHR - Committee against Torture (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/6/cat/treaties/convention-reserv.htm)

So if the act is done intending to obtain information and not solely to inflict severe physical or mental pain there is legal wiggling room, is there not?

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

No one wants to turn millitary brigs into Club Med here. But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.

...me of the movie 'The Patriot' when Heath Ledger's idealism gets both his younger brother and himself killed in an effort to do the 'right thing' when people who know war are telling you your idea of 'right' is...wrong.

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over." William T. Sherman

Osama bin Laden can end it all and bring peace. Today.

...me of the movie 'The Patriot' when Heath Ledger's idealism gets both his younger brother and himself killed in an effort to do the 'right thing' when people who know war are telling you your idea of 'right' is...wrong.

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over." William T. Sherman

Osama bin Laden can end it all and bring peace. Today.

My old BF is coming back from Tehran this week. He's been caring for an ailing parent for nearly 2 years as any good Persian eldest son is supposed to. There is no logical reason he should have any problems reentering the US (Green Card holder, Zoroastrian, law abiding, trying to get his parents the heck out of Dodge). But he has a common first and last name- like being named "James Smith" there. What if someone with that name is on a watch list here? I should be more worried about him being stopped at the airport when he leaves, not when he lands back in the US.

Bararous practices leads to proliferation of abuse and barberous society.

Then show me a barbarous practice prisoners have experienced at the hands of military guards?

And then show me what punishment said guard received.

I'll wait......

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

Most of them are.

But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.
Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

There is no logical reason he should have any problems reentering the US (Green Card holder, Zoroastrian, law abiding, trying to get his parents the heck out of Dodge). But he has a common first and last name- like being named "James Smith" there. What if someone with that name is on a watch list here? I should be more worried about him being stopped at the airport when he leaves, not when he lands back in the US.

...so...is he going to be sent off to Gitmo and beaten and have his feet tickled and forced to listen to Barbra Streisand expound on politics for days on end or is he gonna have to go through the same inconveniences that the rest of us have to deal with coming and going from the states?

What does his coming and going have to do with killing our enemies?

Most of them are.


Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

Psssst - that is "advanced interrogation techniques". TYVM

...so...is he going to be sent off to Gitmo and beaten and have his feet tickled and forced to listen to Barbra Streisand expound on politics for days on end or is he gonna have to go through the same inconveniences that the rest of us have to deal with coming and going from the states?

What does his coming and going have to do with killing our enemies?

Gitmo would be a riot as my friend could give Mikesinmd a run for his money on the anti-Muslim rhetoric.

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

Most of them are.


Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

Random? No, but they have come close. They have picked up innocent people in an area after an attack with no evidence other than they are present and tortured them.
How would you like to be in the area of a terrorist attack, picked up and then tortured just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until you are willing to say it is ok for you to be tortured by the US government even when innocent, then don't say it is ok for other innocent people to be tortured unless you don't mind being elitist or a hypocrit.

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

And you know that how....?

Try talking to Iranians who have gone to visit family lately.

I have heard enough stories to cause concern.

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

Three Canadian men of Middle Eastern origin who say they were imprisoned and tortured in Syria are demanding an independent inquiry into their allegations.

The three — Muayyed Nureddin, Abdullah Almalki and Ahmad El Maati — told a news conference in Ottawa on Thursday that the federal government must follow the recommendations of Justice Dennis O'Connor, who investigated the case of Maher Arar.

Arar was arrested by U.S. authorities in September of 2002 and taken to Syria where he was interrogated and tortured for nearly a year.

O'Connor said Canadian officials had shared faulty information about Arar with the United States and Syria, and recommended that all such allegations be probed by an independent investigator.

.
3 more Canadians alleging torture seek Arar-style inquiry (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/12/threemorearars.html)

Most of the time they are just inconvenienced or strip searched and interrogated for hours, but sometimes they are sent someplace to be tortured even though they are innocent.

And you know that how....?

What do you think they're going to do? Beat him with a rubber hose? :confused:

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

who say they were imprisoned and tortured in Syria

Most of the time they are just inconvenienced or strip searched and interrogated for hours, but sometimes they are sent someplace to be tortured even though they are innocent.

...something here?

Gitmo would be a riot as my friend could give Mikesinmd a run for his money on the anti-Muslim rhetoric.

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

...topic. I am not a 'better 100 guilty go free than 1 innocent go to jail' type.

Your friend may, may suffer some inconvenience. He may even be falsely accused and, maybe, maybe, maybe wrongly tortured. It may even happen to me. We may also get hit by lightening, run over by a bus or hit the lottery.

The topic is torture and whether or not it is a useful method of helping defeat our enemies; not whether or not mistakes are made by human beings.

Let's focus on the mistake OBL made in ####ing with us and defeating him and his side, shall we?

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

Like my friends parents that are trying to get the heck out of Tehran?

Like my friends parents that are trying to get the heck out of Tehran?

...could spend a little time over at DU land and educated those folks as to what tyranny really is and explain that the US is the place people try to go to get away from evil. That is if they can get them to stop water boarding each other long enough to even listen.

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

The so called "left wing" Canadian Broadcasting Corporation was just creporting on court cases. The Canadian court awarded the man money because there was enough evidence he was tortured. It is a fact established in a North American court system.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists. And? It means that people are are arrested by America and sent off to be tortured on false information........your point?
Mistakes happen and if you think Vegmom's boyfriend is not at risk of having th exact same thing happen to him if the US gives the UK false information that he is a terrorist when he is stopping over and he gets sent to a torturing country for "interrogation", then you are simply naive.
For that matter, any innocent American is subject to this happenning when travelling overseas because people like you said it is ok to torture suspects even when they are innocent. Just because you or any member of your family will ever leave the country does not give you the right to say it is ok for other innocent Americans to be tortured.
Untill you say it is ok to torture you even when you are innocent, don't say it is ok to torture other innocent Americans unless you are a hypocrit or a sadist.

We know the US government makes mistakes all the time with do not fly lists, and as far as we know dozens of innocent Americans have already been sent to be tortured in these countries based on worse false information or worse mistakes of intelligence. As long as these programs are in place, we are all at risk of our own government arranging for us to be tortured.

...topic. I am not a 'better 100 guilty go free than 1 innocent go to jail' type.

Your friend may, may suffer some inconvenience. He may even be falsely accused and, maybe, maybe, maybe wrongly tortured. It may even happen to me. We may also get hit by lightening, run over by a bus or hit the lottery.

The topic is torture and whether or not it is a useful method of helping defeat our enemies; not whether or not mistakes are made by human beings.

Let's focus on the mistake OBL made in ####ing with us and defeating him and his side, shall we?

"Thoſe who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

"Thoſe who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

...torturing an enemy to give up critical information forsaking liberty in any way, shape or form?

...torturing an enemy to give up critical information forsaking liberty in any way, shape or form?

But what if the person is not the enemy, just someone mistaken for the enemy?

But what if the person is not the enemy, just someone mistaken for the enemy?

...he gets hit by lighting? You seem to understand that BECAUSE we torture, we WILL torture wrongly on occasion. That is true.

Being afraid of that is reasonable yet it is a lesser evil than not trying to defeat or enemies. There are cases when abusing a fellow human being will save many of our own. Risk/reward. That doesn't mean we run wild and torture everybody. Our enemies are real and they do happen. Either we risk things like torture and trust that we do it only to the right people or we don't accept it and pay the price, likely a much higher price, in trying to mitigate the evils of war.

Winning wars has afford us the time and opportunity to be idealistic in times of peace. If we lose, our ideas lose, too.

...torturing an enemy to give up critical information forsaking liberty in any way, shape or form?

You said "It may even happen to me" and then you went on to seemingly be a proponent of torture. If you are willing to subject yourself to the possibility of being tortured by your state and surrender your liberty for the promise of safety, then maybe you deserve neither liberty nor safety.

...he gets hit by lighting? You seem to understand that BECAUSE we torture, we WILL torture wrongly on occasion. That is true.

Being afraid of that is reasonable yet it is a lesser evil than not trying to defeat or enemies. There are cases when abusing a fellow human being will save many of our own. Risk/reward. That doesn't mean we run wild and torture everybody. Our enemies are real and they do happen. Either we risk things like torture and trust that we do it only to the right people or we don't accept it and pay the price, likely a much higher price, in trying to mitigate the evils of war.

Winning wars has afford us the time and opportunity to be idealistic in times of peace. If we lose, our ideas lose, too.
"Thoſe who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

You said "It may even happen to me" and then you went on to seemingly be a proponent of torture. If you are willing to subject yourself to the possibility of being tortured by your state and surrender your liberty for the promise of safety, then maybe you deserve neither liberty nor safety.

...well, I am a proponent of our armed forces having every weapon under the sun with the same hope that they won't turn them on me as I have of them not torturing me.

So, I am subject to the possiblity of every single force my government has being turned on me, including torture. To single it out among all the power we have seems silly to me.

I trust the system.

"Thoſe who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

...post #67 :cheers:

What if we save 3,000 American lives.. or 10,000..

How about One MILLION!???

Would one million American lives be worthy of torturing a single terrorist?

The DUmmies are... 10-31-2007 01:30 PM How about One MILLION BILLION GAJILLION FAFILLION lives!?!?!

Learn your numbers you uneducated ignoramus.

After a million, is a billion.. then a trillion.. then a brazillion.. then a ####load..

When Congress ratifies treaties it becomes law. If in the treaty we agree torture is illegal during war, or even during peace, then it is the law in America that we cannot torture.

This is true but seeing as Congress failed to indicate in their legislation what constitutes torture than who determines it??? Political hacks who want to be President, democratic leaders who change direction like the wind. If the members of congress would have done the job right than there would be no question or debates.

They could declare water boarding illegal within the next week but they don't care they just want to make some noise...

And you know that how....?

Try talking to Iranians who have gone to visit family lately.

I have heard enough stories to cause concern.

I have had NO problems travelling.. anywhere..

Don't blame the lawmen.. blame the people with like names and apperances that perform the atrocities that we are trying to protect ourselves from..

Be kind of silly to stop the blonde haired blue eyed John Smith from Saskatchewan now wouldn't it??

I have had NO problems travelling.. anywhere..

Don't blame the lawmen.. blame the people with like names and apperances that perform the atrocities that we are trying to protect ourselves from..

Be kind of silly to stop the blonde haired blue eyed John Smith from Saskatchewan now wouldn't it??

right.

its called profiling :yay:

its something that is done to get the people who have greater odds of being the ones planning mayhem.

if you don't like the way our system works then don't come to our country :yay:




JUST CURIOUS


anyone against this torture because you COULD be wrongly tortured...

are you against our entire legal system including prison because you could be wrongly convicted and lose your life and be put behind bars?

Like my friends parents that are trying to get the heck out of Tehran?

Um, how is it our problem if your friend's parents are having a hard time defecting?

I have had NO problems travelling.. anywhere..




But are you Middle Eastern? Or any other ethnicity that has been profiled?

You do realize that not every Middle Easterner is even Muslim, let alone of that fringe that has commited atrocities?

For that matter, any innocent American is subject to this happenning when travelling overseas because people like you said it is ok to torture suspects even when they are innocent. Just because you or any member of your family will ever leave the country does not give you the right to say it is ok for other innocent Americans to be tortured.

How does your story show evidence of Americans being tortured? :confused:

Um, how is it our problem if your friend's parents are having a hard time defecting?

You refered to those taken in by Canada as "filth". Does that make my friends relatives filth because they decide to go to Canada?

right.

its called profiling :yay:

its something that is done to get the people who have greater odds of being the ones planning mayhem.

Your typical Iranian guy has greater odds of buying designer sunglasses and laser hair removal than most generic American white guys. Your point?


if you don't like the way our system works then don't come to our country :yay:


Good thing the Native Americans didn't have that attitude.

But are you Middle Eastern? Or any other ethnicity that has been profiled?

You do realize that not every Middle Easterner is even Muslim, let alone of that fringe that has commited atrocities?

yes..

and yes,..

BUT all the current day Atrocities HAVE been committed by muslims.. like it or not the majority of muslims are middle eastern.. Like the "Friends or Arabs" complaining that we might be watching the muslim and islamic tamples.. well DUH!!

i doubt we are going to catch an AL Queada Terrorist at the local Synagogue.. or Catholic Church..

Good thing the Native Americans didn't have that attitude.

and we took over and killed thousands of them.......

is that what you want happening on an even larger scale because we DON'T profile?

yes..

and yes,..

BUT all the current day Atrocities HAVE been committed by muslims.. like it or not the majority of muslims are middle eastern.. Like the "Friends or Arabs" complaining that we might be watching the muslim and islamic tamples.. well DUH!!

i doubt we are going to catch an AL Queada Terrorist at the local Synagogue.. or Catholic Church..

Were you born here or abroad? Do you have to show an Iranian passport going thru customs and immigration when you travel?

Were you born here or abroad? Do you have to show an Iranian passport going thru customs and immigration when you travel?

You didn't ask that..

I'm second generation Iranian (Persian) my mother being the first to be born in this country..

If I did have an Iranian passport knowing what an idiot my (Iran) president is, I'd expect a lot of trouble if I chose to travel to and from the US.. and I wouldn't even consider travelling to Israel.. (I'd EXPECT it, meaning kinda stupid to ##### about it after the fact!!)

Amazing isn't it.. that they can even THINK about travelling here after what their president has said.. Isn't America great!!

Faffillion isnt a number?

and do brazillion numbers wear thongs?


Brazillion numbers are hairless..

You didn't ask that..

I'm second generation Iranian (Persian) my mother being the first to be born in this country..

If I did have an Iranian passport knowing what an idiot my (Iran) president is, I'd expect a lot of trouble if I chose to travel to and from the US.. and I wouldn't even consider travelling to Israel.. (I'd EXPECT it, meaning kinda stupid to ##### about it after the fact!!)

Amazing isn't it.. that they can even THINK about travelling here after what their president has said.. Isn't America great!!

So your grandparents came here well before the Islamic Revolution then?

Did you ever travel there?

My friend still has his Iranian passport as he is not a US citizen yet. He had to go back to Iran because of his father being gravely ill. BTW- current laws have any child born to an Iranian father automatically becoming an Iranian citizen, so US born offspring can obtain Iranian passports thru the Iranian interests section at the Embassy of Pakistan.

You never heard of Iranian Jews traveling /immigrating to Israel? They actually don't stamp the passports so there won't be any grief when they return to Iran. I know many folks (US born) who traveled to Iran to visit family using their Iranian passport to enter/leave there and their US passport to enter/leave here.

Ahmedinejad a moron? No kidding! I was the one who broke the news to my friend over the phone. That ear is still ringing from his reaction.

anyone against this torture because you COULD be wrongly tortured...

are you against our entire legal system including prison because you could be wrongly convicted and lose your life and be put behind bars?



...post of the day. I spent 10,000 words trying to say something that simple to understand.

Atta boy!!!

My friend still has his Iranian passport as he is not a US citizen yet.

Then what's he coming back over here for? Why doesn't he stay in his own country if this one isn't good enough to become a citizen of??

Hot D@mn got to steal that argument for the next time Kerad/Forestard/NHBoy posts on this subject

...brilliant; simple, concise, to the point. Post of the week. Maybe the month.

:buddies:

Then what's he coming back over here for? Why doesn't he stay in his own country if this one isn't good enough to become a citizen of??

Way to jump to conclusions!

Because he WANTS to be an American citizen.

He had not been here long enough yet when his father became ill.

...brilliant; simple, concise, to the point. Post of the week. Maybe the month.

:buddies:

:diva: :lmao:

Way to jump to conclusions!

Because he WANTS to be an American citizen.

He had not been here long enough yet when his father became ill.

Well, when you were giving woe about him possibly having a problem getting back in the States, you didn't bother to mention he's not even a US citizen.

:rolleyes:

Well, when you were giving woe about him possibly having a problem getting back in the States, you didn't bother to mention he's not even a US citizen.

:rolleyes:

I mentioned he has a Green Card = permanent resident status. That's step 1 towards becoming a citizen.

right.

its called profiling :yay:

its something that is done to get the people who have greater odds of being the ones planning mayhem.

if you don't like the way our system works then don't come to our country :yay:


Ok, so what ethnicity was Timothy McVeigh and people who usually read the Turner diaries?


JUST CURIOUS


anyone against this torture because you COULD be wrongly tortured...

are you against our entire legal system including prison because you could be wrongly convicted and lose your life and be put behind bars?Let me ask YOU a question. How would you feel if a kid of yours or other family member was wrongfully tortured when they were innocent?
You would scream bloody murder and for accountability, wouldn't ya.


Our laws say torture is illegal. Are you against our legal system because it outlaws torture?

How does your story show evidence of Americans being tortured? :confused:

Pay attention, you were poo pooing the idea of Vegmom's boyfriend getting sent to be tortured if he was innocent when he was travelling back to the states. It happens, it has happened and you are naive if you think it couldn't happen to her boyfriend.

Let me ask YOU a question. How would you feel if a kid of yours or other family member was wrongfully tortured when they were innocent?
You would scream bloody murder and for accountability, wouldn't ya.


Our laws say torture is illegal. Are you against our legal system because it outlaws torture?

o, you can be dam sure that if this were the case, people would be held accountable in my personal judgement system which holds the death penalty for cases just like this :yay:

I'm not against our legal system for these reasons. I would be agitated at our government if they just let these little bastards do whatever they wanted and DIDN'T torture them. It isn't like they were losing appendages, they thought they were drowning. they'll get over it lol. (and for the record, i wouldn't really mind if our government used a good ol' fashioned hammer on the torturee's fingers/toes/ect in order to get the information out of them :yay:) do you think these other countries show mercy with our POWs? We should not give them the respect of showing their men mercy :yay:

Ok, so what ethnicity was Timothy McVeigh and people who usually read the Turner diaries?


Let me ask YOU a question. How would you feel if a kid of yours or other family member was wrongfully tortured when they were innocent?
You would scream bloody murder and for accountability, wouldn't ya.


Our laws say torture is illegal. Are you against our legal system because it outlaws torture?

Define torture..


Oh, and while you are at it.. define IS...

I personally don't think waterboarding is torture.. as is apparent from the DU .. They aren't suffereing ill effects.. not mental anguish, can still communicate coherently and last but not least.. their heads are still attached to their shoulders.. NOT torture..

AND the DU can't even distinguish what IS waterboarding.. They have the story mentioned above, AND a video that shows one of them being waterboarded.. Other than the "board" there are NO similarities.. They can't even tell what waterboarding is, how can they tell me it's torture??

Define torture..


Oh, and while you are at it.. define IS...

I personally don't think waterboarding is torture.. as is apparent from the DU .. They aren't suffereing ill effects.. not mental anguish, can still communicate coherently and last but not least.. their heads are still attached to their shoulders.. NOT torture..

AND the DU can't even distinguish what IS waterboarding.. They have the story mentioned above, AND a video that shows one of them being waterboarded.. Other than the "board" there are NO similarities.. They can't even tell what waterboarding is, how can they tell me it's torture??Let me put you on the waterboard and then tell me it's not torture. It is, but I also believe we should be getting information from prisoners anyway we can including torture. This is wartime and as much as the liberal #######s in this country think we can fight a politically correct war by the rules, they are mistaken as well as stupid. You can't win a war by playing nice, politically correct or any other way except downright mean. Vietnam should have taught us this, but some of the American public just doesn't want to learn.

Let me put you on the waterboard and then tell me it's not torture. It is, but I also believe we should be getting information from prisoners anyway we can including torture. This is wartime and as much as the liberal #######s in this country think we can fight a politically correct war by the rules, they are mistaken as well as stupid. You can't win a war by playing nice, politically correct or any other way except downright mean. Vietnam should have taught us this, but some of the American public just doesn't want to learn.
8 count push ups, squat thrusts.. and running 5 - 10 miles are torture in my book.. but in the end you suffer no ill effects..

...we live in a country that thinks it is cruel and unusual punishment to put people to death who have beaten, shot, stabbed and butchered innocent people to death.

We're gonna have trouble with physically abusing, torturing, human beings as a government policy as long as we focus on the details, like we do in capital punishment instead of focusing on whether it is right or wrong to put a vicious killer of innocents to death or whether torture is going to be worth it or not.

We gotta start with right and wrong.

I say it is right to take the life of murderers. I think it is common sense to torture when there is strong belief and evidence that it is likely to save innocent lives.

...we live in a country that thinks it is cruel and unusual punishment to put people to death who have beaten, shot, stabbed and butchered innocent people to death.

We're gonna have trouble with physically abusing, torturing, human beings as a government policy as long as we focus on the details, like we do in capital punishment instead of focusing on whether it is right or wrong to put a vicious killer of innocents to death or whether torture is going to be worth it or not.

We gotta start with right and wrong.

I say it is right to take the life of murderers. I think it is common sense to torture when there is strong belief and evidence that it is likely to save innocent lives.That's a lucid, pragmatic opinion. It'll never fly. :lol:

That's a lucid, pragmatic opinion. It'll never fly. :lol:

...but wouldn't it be cool to see a real debate between the two nominees phrased around the central, as opposed to the ancillary, issues?

I mean, what if Hillary or Obama was asked "If torturing an individual, perhaps even to death, resulted in us learning on September 10, 2001 that four planes were going be hijacked the next morning, would it have been worth it?"

Imagine that.

...what if Hillary or Obama was asked "If torturing an individual, perhaps even to death, resulted in us learning on September 10, 2001 that four planes were going be hijacked the next morning, would it have been worth it?"

Or if Bush had been asked the same, but instead use '...If you had prior warnings and evidence...?'?

Or if Bush had been asked the same, but instead use '...If you had prior warnings and evidence...?'?

...as I hold W responsible for not doing anything about him, OBL, for 8 months.

We had prior warnings and evidence and the infamous Gorelick memo specifically forbade and reiterated existing prohibitions to the FBI from using foreign or military gathered (CIA) intelligence in terms of the 19 hijackers. We had 'em. We had 'em in time.