... if you're traveling across the border. :rolleyes:

WASHINGTON - Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

The policies cover "any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover "all papers and other written documentation," including books, pamphlets and "written materials commonly referred to as 'pocket trash' or 'pocket litter.' "

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records.

When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to non-federal entities must be returned to DHS. But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials.

Laptops may be detained at border - Washington Post - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25960741/)

So they can take my laptop for no reason, detain it for months, and go through all my personal and medical information for no reason in the name of National Security. :rolleyes:

Great policy. :sarcasm:

GO BUSH! :yahoo:

So you have a problem with National Security?

Are you hiding something?

The chances of them taking YOUR laptop are slim to none, unless you are simply being stupid about it.

So you have a problem with National Security?

Are you hiding something?

The chances of them taking YOUR laptop are slim to none, unless you are simply being stupid about it.

That's not the point.

The point is they can take your property, without suspicion of wrong doing, and hold it as long as they like.

That's not the point.

The point is they can take your property, without suspicion of wrong doing, and hold it as long as they like.
We all know they wouldn't.

How is it any different then them checking your luggage? Unless they find something on a scan they aren't going to hold it.

So you have a problem with National Security?

I love how you righties always pull this card. Everything's about "National Security."

Bush could tell you to jump off a bridge for National Security, and some of you righties would probably do it. :killingme

Are you hiding something?

Yep - I don't want them to find out I hacked GT Legends to unlock everything.

:rolleyes:

The chances of them taking YOUR laptop are slim to none, unless you are simply being stupid about it.

You're right, because I go to Canada ... how often? :smile:

That's not the point.

The point is they can take your property, without suspicion of wrong doing, and hold it as long as they like.

:yeahthat:

We all know they wouldn't.

How is it any different then them checking your luggage? Unless they find something on a scan they aren't going to hold it.


You're still missing the point.

They can take your property WITHOUT suspicion of wrong doing indefinitely if they choose.

It's very different than them taking your luggage. Your luggage is screened by xray/etc AND THEN hand searched if there is any reason to do so.

A laptop IS NOT pre-screened.

How is it any different then them checking your luggage? Unless they find something on a scan they aren't going to hold it.

Yep, I trust them on that one. :yay:

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5886022&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

cbs13.com - Call Kurtis: TSA Security (http://cbs13.com/seenon/local_story_122010347.html)

USATODAY.com - Former airport security employees charged with stealing from luggage (http://content.usatoday.com/community/utils/idmap/12280666.story)

I love how you righties always pull this card. Everything's about "National Security."

Bush could tell you to jump off a bridge for National Security, and some of you righties would probably do it. :killingme



Yep - I don't want them to find out I hacked GT Legends to unlock everything.

:rolleyes:



You're right, because I go to Canada ... how often? :smile:
Wow. That's all I have to say.

How about this, you run for office and "protect" our borders.

Just what would you change about this? Maybe we should just let anything go, I mean really what are we protecting anyways?

Wow. That's all I have to say.

How about this, you run for office and "protect" our borders.

Just what would you change about this? Maybe we should just let anything go, I mean really what are we protecting anyways?
Because they've been really successful at protecting our borders and keeping illegal immigrants out of this country. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Because they've been really successful at protecting our borders and keeping illegal immigrants out of this country. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
Just how many attacks have happened since 9/11?


Seems to me they are doing a pretty damn good job.

Wow. That's all I have to say.

How about this, you run for office and "protect" our borders.

Just what would you change about this? Maybe we should just let anything go, I mean really what are we protecting anyways?

Hey. I'm all for them protecting our borders.

In fact, while in the military, we would run joint-ops with the border patrol/customs to help track border crossers.

The point I'm trying to make is they can seize your property - without suspicion - and hold it until they feel like it.

What's next?

How about we start dismantling people's cars - give it back to them in pieces - and tell you we didn't find anything - here's your car back.

Oh wait. That's been done before.

When we start giving the government free rein to do what they like to us citizens - that's when I have a problem.

Just how many attacks have happened since 9/11?


Seems to me they are doing a pretty damn good job.

So it's okay that illegal immigrants are coming into this country like cockroaches run into DC restraunts?

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme

We haven't had an attack on our soil since 9-11 so everything's alright? :rolleyes:

So it's okay that illegal immigrants are coming into this country like cockroaches run into DC restraunts?

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme

We haven't had an attack on our soil since 9-11 so everything's alright? :rolleyes:
I am sorry, I guess I missed where you said YOU were out helping?


Just what is it you do to help with Security

I am sorry, I guess I missed where you said YOU were out helping?


Just what is it you do to help with Security

And I'm sorry I missed the part where you are helping out.

Please enlighten me...

Hey. I'm all for them protecting our borders.

In fact, while in the military, we would run joint-ops with the border patrol/customs to help track border crossers.

The point I'm trying to make is they can seize your property - without suspicion - and hold it until they feel like it.

What's next?

How about we start dismantling people's cars - give it back to them in pieces - and tell you we didn't find anything - here's your car back.

Oh wait. That's been done before.

When we start giving the government free rein to do what they like to us citizens - that's when I have a problem.
But really what are the chances they are going to take an average persons laptop for more then 15 minutes TOPs.

Slim to none. They are trying to scare people that need to be scared not the general public

And I'm sorry I missed the part where you are helping out.

Please enlighten me...
In ways you need not to know about. But I am doing more for the soliders and helping them out then I am sure he is doing sitting here biatching like a chick on PMS.

And I'm sorry I missed the part where you are helping out.

Please enlighten me...
Oh snap. I can't wait to hear her answer to this! :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme

In ways you need not to know about. But I am doing more for the soliders and helping them out then I am sure he is doing sitting here biatching like a chick on PMS.
Actually, this was a news article, posted in the "News and Current Events" thread.

You Fail... Please try again.

But really what are the chances they are going to take an average persons laptop for more then 15 minutes TOPs.

Slim to none. They are trying to scare people that need to be scared not the general public

I'm sorry. I didn't know you were privy to the inner machinations of the DHS.

The point is they can seize your property - without provocation - and hold it.

Not sure if you're aware of this little thing we call the Bill of Rights - say maybe the 4th amendment - that afford US citizens rights against this sort of behavior.

Actually, this was a news article, posted in the "News and Current Events" thread.

You Fail... Please try again.
So? You are biatching about National Security, so do you suggest we do?

I guess we could just hang a Sign up that says "Yes we are open please come right in"

I'm sorry. I didn't know you were privy to the inner machinations of the DHS.

The point is they can seize your property - without provocation - and hold it.

Not sure if you're aware of this little thing we call the Bill of Rights - say maybe the 4th amendment - that afford US citizens rights against this sort of behavior.
Well let me know when they take YOUR items. YOUR laptop and hold it for months on end.

Which I am sure they will do next time you leave the country. And when they do, we will talk about it then.

So? You are biatching about National Security, so do you suggest we do?

I guess we could just hang a Sign up that says "Yes we are open please come right in"

You really are missing the point...

The point is - they can take your personal belongings - WITHOUT CAUSE OF SUSPICION - and do what they want with it.

Why should we give them this right?

I'm sorry. I didn't know you were privy to the inner machinations of the DHS.

The point is they can seize your property - without provocation - and hold it.

Not sure if you're aware of this little thing we call the Bill of Rights - say maybe the 4th amendment - that afford US citizens rights against this sort of behavior.
Everytime I see this crap on the news, I say to myself "who would stand for this type of :bs:?"

Then I say "oh yeah, the SOMD righties!"

Congratulations SOMD Forums. :clap: Once more, you don't let me down. :jet:

You really are missing the point...

The point is - they can take your personal belongings - WITHOUT CAUSE OF SUSPICION - and do what they want with it.

Why should we give them this right?
Explain to me how it is different then a cop pulling someone over for what they might think is a DUI/DWI. Or doing Sober check points?

You are correct that it is not National Security, but aren't they still "just checking"

Well let me know when they take YOUR items. YOUR laptop and hold it for months on end.

Which I am sure they will do next time you leave the country. And when they do, we will talk about it then.

Been there and done that honey.

Crossing back into the US - from Vancouver, BC. (Blaine station)

Buddy and I coming back from a camping - Elk hunting trip.

We spent a week out in the field.

For someone reason they thought that two unkempt guys WITH military ID's were reason to search the vehicle. Took door panels off - removed the trunk liners etc.

Came back to us 3 hours later and said thank you and come again.

Guess what?

All the panels and various bits were packed in his trunk.

Explain to me how it is different then a cop pulling someone over for what they might think is a DUI/DWI. Or doing Sober check points?


You just answered your own question.

...pulling someone over for what they might think is a DUI/DWI

They have suspicion to pull you over.

That's the difference.

Please...

Ok.

Just how many attacks have happened since 9/11?


Seems to me they are doing a pretty damn good job.

The lack of attacks since 9/11 does not constitute "proof" that attacks have been prevented. You can't prove a negative.

Personally, I don't like being treated like a suspect before I've given any indication that I am up to no good.

See how that works, or is that too abstract a concept for you?

So you have a problem with National Security?

Are you hiding something?

The chances of them taking YOUR laptop are slim to none, unless you are simply being stupid about it.


Article [IV.]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

... if you're traveling across the border. :rolleyes:





Laptops may be detained at border - Washington Post - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25960741/)

So they can take my laptop for no reason, detain it for months, and go through all my personal and medical information for no reason in the name of National Security. :rolleyes:

Great policy. :sarcasm:

GO BUSH! :yahoo:

Well his policies have kept us ALL safe, Bush haters included, since 9/11 so :yay:

THAT being said, aren't you leaving some VERY pertinent information from your story??

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

I would have to add if you ARE a US Citizen and have been travelling to places like Palestine, the Sudan, Iran.. I would expect them to crawl up your ass with a microscope.. seizing of a laptop should be the least of your concerns

Well his policies have kept us ALL safe, Bush haters included, since 9/11 so :yay:

THAT being said, aren't you leaving some VERY pertinent information from your story??

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

I would have to add if you ARE a US Citizen and have been travelling to places like Palestine, the Sudan, Iran.. I would expect them to crawl up your ass with a microscope.. seizing of a laptop should be the least of your concerns

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.


Regarding the 9-11 policies you adore - look up the term specious reasoning. Or watch the Simpsons. (http://www.nickdavis.com/index.php?q=node/36)

for foreigners Richard Head :whistle:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.


[/URL]

You mean like Mexicans, and South Americans??

for foreigners Richard Head :whistle:


Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.

You mean like Mexicans, and South Americans??

IIRC, there weren't any footnoted exceptions.

Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.


Do the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence apply to anyone except Americans?

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

No problem. :bubble:

From the link I originally provided: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25960741/)

DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

Any more questions?

Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.

The holding: International travelers arriving from overseas are subject to border rules. And those rules are very, very favorable to the government. There is no reasonable suspicion needed for searches of “closed containers,” such as luggage and briefcases (US v Tsai, 282 F.3d 690 [9th Cir. 2002]); purses, wallets or pockets (Henderson v US, 390 F.2d 805[9th Cir. 1979]); and pictures, films and videos (US v 37 Photographs, 402 US 363; 12,200-Ft. Reels of Super 8mm Film, 413 US 123).

Under that standard, it sure seems like laptops are containers. There are some limits, of course. The feds do need reasonable suspicion to search one’s “alimentary canal” for reasons of “human dignity and privacy” (US v Montoyta de Hernandez, 473 US 531). In addition, there may be some property searches that are so destructive that they require particularized suspicion.

:whistle:

talkback from zdnet article about 9th circuit decison up holding the rules:

2.2.4. Each of us are equally up on the law as they are. (http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-11155-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=46903&messageID=871864)

The 4th Amendment is actually quite clear. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

A computer is part of a person's "papers and effects". As such, any search beyond scanning for explosives, concealed weapons, chemical or biological contaigens is unreasonable, and therefore in and of itself, without probable cause. If the person had a hard copy of a child porn picture on him, or had been under suspicion or investigation previously, then they would have probable cause for a greater search. And ONLY after a warrant had been served.


the court decision was based on the legal definition, that the "Laptop" is a container ... and the law has up healed the right of Customs to search containers ....

but I agree with the poster ... a laptop, thumb drive, CD's, should be considered "Effects" not "Containers" :duel:


I don't know what they are expecting to catch, except casual criminals .... like the guy coming back from the Philippians with Kiddie Porn ... maybe a really dumb low level Al Q Operative ... I am sure word is already getting out about this ...


All this said, the Gobberment should not be treating US Citizens like this, but any foreigner wanting to come over ... Fingerprint them, Photograph them, DNA sample .... where are you going, who are you staying with :evil:.... and for petes sake if there no record of them leaving after a Visa Expires ... start an investigation into where they went ........

especially if they are coming in from some unfriendly ME or Asian Country ... yep, thats right Profile them ......... :yahoo:


18. Some implications... (http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-11155-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=46903&messageID=872085)

wizard_of_oz - 04/24/08

If the feds need no suspicion to perform searches and confiscate data, there are a few disturbing implications.

First, unbridled discretion means nothing is stopping the government from targeting individuals or members of groups the government (or someone in the government) dislikes. Republican in office? Staffers for Democratic candidates get full searches and copies of their election plans go to their Republican adversaries. Work for a lobbyist that espouses ideas (like sunshine laws) that someone high up in DHS doesn't like? You get the full treatment. Your employer didn't contribute enough to certain election campaigns? Well, you qualify too, and your laptop contents just might go to your competitor that donated more. A customs inspector thinks women should be home, barefoot and pregnant? Women without husbands and children in tow get searched just in case the inspector finds something embarrassing or socially damaging.

Second, otherwise legitimate organizations likely to be targeted by such corrupt (but now perfectly legal) behavior will start smuggling proprietary data just like other things get smuggled over the border. The criminal organizations have been doing it for some time. At the very least, really important stuff will be encrypted, hidden off any obvious-looking devices. How long will it be before specialized couriers spring up to transport proprietary data? Does anybody remember the short story "Johnny Mnemonic" by William Gibson or the movie it inspired?

Other things follow from these, but I think you get the idea. The purpose of the constitution our forefathers wrote is to prevent abuse at the hands of our government. And sadly, it seems, it has failed in that purpose.


:jerry:

Yes, only terrorists will need to worry about their laptops being taken away....

because the guvMint doesn't need any reasonable suspicion to hijack your computer, they rely on good luck and the belief that god will help them pick the right computers to sequestor.

Do the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence apply to anyone except Americans?

While within this country, all people are subject to the provisions and protections of the Constitution until they, if proven to be here illegally, are sent back to their country of origin.

This, contrary to what the right believes, is to protect 'us', not 'them'. Take away the across the board protection and it's then up to you to prove that you're supposed to be here; good luck with that if you butt heads with a cop or bureaucrat on a power trip.

Yes, only terrorists will need to worry about their laptops being taken away....

because the guvMint doesn't need any reasonable suspicion to hijack your computer, they rely on good luck and the belief that god will help them pick the right computers to sequestor.

however they do it, it's worked and kept us safe for the last 7 years.. so I hope they keep doing what they are doing.. Well at least until January, when possibly we get to find out the hard way how safe 'change' is.

While within this country, all people are subject to the provisions and protections of the Constitution until they, if proven to be here illegally, are sent back to their country of origin.



And foreigners aren't IN this country until they pass through Customs and Security.. According to your own argument, none of those in question would be covered by any of the above.

So they can take my laptop for no reason, detain it for months, and go through all my personal and medical information for no reason in the name of National Security. :rolleyes:

Great policy. :sarcasm:

GO BUSH! :yahoo:


That they think we believe the bull#### is scary/laughable. If a turrist wants to use a laptop to coordinate attacks, they'll buy/steal one after they're here. If they're hellbent on bringing their own, they'll scrub it and then vpn into the WorldWide Evildoers Network ™ to snag the files for their nefarious schemes.

But the faithful buy into it - hook, line & sinker.

In the meantime, there's no reason to make it easy on the govtards. (http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=2990)

That they think we believe the bull#### is scary/laughable. If a turrist wants to use a laptop to coordinate attacks, they'll buy/steal one after they're here. If they're hellbent on bringing their own, they'll scrub it and then vpn into the WorldWide Evildoers Network ™ to snag the files for their nefarious schemes.

But the faithful buy into it - hook, line & sinker.

In the meantime, there's no reason to make it easy on the govtards. (http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=2990)

From what I understand most terrorists aren't computer scientists.. and most of what they recruit are ignorant and mostly illiterate. It's hard to recruit smart educated people to strap a bomb to themselves and take themselves out, while trying to kill 10 people.

SO what you suggest might be obvious to most educated and computer savvy people, but not to most terrorists. I know I've read on more than one occasion where they have found plans, blueprints, and even strategy regarding atttacks (Timetables and the such) on these same laptops you say are a waste of time to inspect..

Considering that the FBI can't even keep theirs secure (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/12/fbi.laptops/index.html), you may be on to something.

From what I understand most terrorists aren't computer scientists.. and most of what they recruit are ignorant and mostly illiterate. It's hard to recruit smart educated people to strap a bomb to themselves and take themselves out, while trying to kill 10 people.

SO what you suggest might be obvious to most educated and computer savvy people, but not to most terrorists. I know I've read on more than one occasion where they have found plans, blueprints, and even strategy regarding atttacks (Timetables and the such) on these same laptops you say are a waste of time to inspect..
Yet the government thinks Al-Qaida's capable of carrying out Cyberterrorism attacks? :eyebrow:

Bob, you know better than this. :rolleyes:

It's been known for a very long time that al-Qaida does in fact have a very tech-savvy wing. :duh:

It's been known for a very long time that al-Qaida does in fact have a very tech-savvy wing. :duh:


...and these are precisely the individuals al-Qaida will be sending on suicide missions. Since you are a computer professional in an entry level custodial job, can we assume you will soon be joining OBL's computer freaks?