In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)

...Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.
...
The Toyota Camry involved in the collision was driven by Lateesha Shonte Cooper, 25, of Lexington Park, who was treated at the hospital and released.


I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".

I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.

Oh, and I don't ride one (yet), but my Mom and Dad did, and I always worried about them; not because of my Dad's ability but for this very reason here.

In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)



I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".

I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.
Last I recall, that is a 40 mph road in that section... how fast was the bike going? If the bike was going considerably faster than the posted speed limit then the biker is the primary blame for this unfortunate event.

Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.


... and what was the bike doing in the eastbound lane if it was heading west...:confused:

Not to be mean, but when you get on a motorcycle, this is a risk you take. This is why you'll never catch me on a bike.

Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.


... and what was the bike doing in the eastbound lane if it was heading west...:confused:

Trying to avoid a collision?

In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)



I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".

I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.

Oh, and I don't ride one (yet), but my Mom and Dad did, and I always worried about them; not because of my Dad's ability but for this very reason here.

:yeahthat:

I'm sorry for your pain and my prayers are with you and the family and friends involved in the lose of two young people.

If you go onto the Baynet where this story is her and her mother are defending what she did saying if the motocycle wasn't speeding then it would of never of hit the car.

I know my self a "crotch rocket" as people call them don't stop on a dime no matter how fast you are going. She was comparing it to a Harley that she supposidly rode when she was little. Anyone knows that there is a difference between a Harley and a Crotch Rocket but Neither one of them can stop on a dime.

I feel the same as you do. Just wanted to point out that they may be on here trying to bad mouth the victims. Just like they did on the baynet. But Sarah Brian's sister asked that none of there friends or family go after the driver of the car because that's not what brian would of wanted.

But Sarah Brian's sister asked that none of there friends or family go after the driver of the car because that's not what brian would of wanted.

That's good to hear... If the bike was speeding as is being reported, than she's truly a victim in this mess.

In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)



I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".
I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.

Oh, and I don't ride one (yet), but my Mom and Dad did, and I always worried about them; not because of my Dad's ability but for this very reason here.

We do not know the entire facts of the story. :shrug:

You are assuming Lateesha stated "I just didn't see him." - It is not in the article you are referring to, unless you know something more than we do...

If this is truly the case, I agree stiffer penalties should be in place when a car is at fault in a motorcycle accident.

Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.


... and what was the bike doing in the eastbound lane if it was heading west...:confused:

Was he in the turning lane because they only lived the next turn up on the left. So he couldn't of been going that fast.

I did find out that yesterday was Brian's 27th birthday so I can only imagine what the family and friends are going through.

My hubby and I both ride and this was a terrible accident. They were just married in June of this year. Here is a link to their obituary;

Macon.com | Obituaries (http://www.legacy.com/Macon/DeathNotices.asp?page=SearchResults&DateRange=Today&Product=0)

So anyone has the right to pull out in front of anybody because they are speeding? So if you can judge that they are speeding than you should be able to judge whether or not you can safely pull out. I have been riding bikes for 29 years. Yes I have almost pulled out in front of cars and bikes. Yes I believe people make terrible mistakes and use terrible judgement, but I don't believe for one minute she is a victim because the bike might have been speeding.

My hubby and I both ride and this was a terrible accident. They were just married in June of this year. Here is a link to their obituary;

Macon.com | Obituaries (http://www.legacy.com/Macon/DeathNotices.asp?page=SearchResults&DateRange=Today&Product=0)

That is so sad and they both look so familiar. Prayers with all involved.

So anyone has the right to pull out in front of anybody because they are speeding? So if you can judge that they are speeding than you should be able to judge whether or not you can safely pull out. I have been riding bikes for 29 years. Yes I have almost pulled out in front of cars and bikes. Yes I believe people make terrible mistakes and use terrible judgement, but I don't believe for one minute she is a victim because the bike might have been speeding.

She may have had a clear right of way when she began to pull out. A speeding vehicle can come up on you before you can register it visually or after you have no choice but to continue the course of action you are already on. So yes, it is possible she is the primary victim in this crash. How fast was the bike going?

Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.


... and what was the bike doing in the eastbound lane if it was heading west...:confused:

Possibly lost control after braking or trying to avoid.

Was he in the turning lane because they only lived the next turn up on the left. So he couldn't of been going that fast.

I did find out that yesterday was Brian's 27th birthday so I can only imagine what the family and friends are going through.

That car is pretty bent up. What is the speed limit there?

Possibly lost control after braking or trying to avoid.



That car is pretty bent up. What is the speed limit there?

The max on that road is 40 mph and several spots are less.

Possibly lost control after braking or trying to avoid.



That car is pretty bent up. What is the speed limit there?

The car was also a Camry and I have seen several Camry's that are barely hit with anything get a huge dent in it.

It is posted 40 and I don't believe that they were going that fast since they lived right there just up the street.

I knew them...not sure if they were coming or going, but they were less than half a mile from their apartment :frown:

honestly don't think they'd be irresponsible enough to be in the wrong lane or doing anything stupid on the bike. thanks.

honestly don't think they'd be irresponsible enough to be in the wrong lane or doing anything stupid on the bike. thanks.
You don't know whether they were coming or going, you don't know you fast they were going and you don't know why they were heading west and collided while in the eastbound lane. Does anybody know yet?

Update: Names Released in Double Fatal Motorcycle Accident in Park Hall... (http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/10389)

The cause of the crash remains under investigation.

We can speculate all day, but no one cannot start crucifying until the facts come out.

A husband and wife is dead in an accident... that is what we know.

The max on that road is 40 mph and several spots are less.

It was in the 40 zone

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That's the truth and now a days it's txting and dirving, chaning the ipod and driving, and cell phones, doing your make up, reading your mail. It only takes a split second for someone to cause an accident that may or may not change someones lives forever.

I know several times that my daughter has caught my attention and I have glanced in the mirror to see what she is doing and luckily nothing happened.

BIKERS HAVE RIGHTS TO RIDE ON THE ROAD ALSO. PPL NEED TO BE MORE CAUSIOUS (sp?)

Update: Names Released in Double Fatal Motorcycle Accident in Park Hall... (http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/10389)



We can speculate all day, but no one cannot start crucifying until the facts come out.

A husband and wife is dead in an accident... that is what we know.

True and it can end up being that the driver of the car can be the primary victim in this mess so I don't appreciate the possibly unjustified blame and hatred being expressed at the driver of the car. It's very much uncalled for at this point in time.

Something I've noticed...gray vehicles blend in with the road. Has anyone else noticed this? Every time I've ever pulled out in front of a vehicle, it has been gray.

True and it can end up being that the driver of the car can be the primary victim in this mess so I don't appreciate the possibly unjustified blame and hatred being expressed at the driver of the car. It's very much uncalled for at this point in time.

:cds:

Something I've noticed...gray vehicles blend in with the road. Has anyone else noticed this? Every time I've ever pulled out in front of a vehicle, it has been gray.

That's why when I tarted driving my brother always told me to have my headlights on so I can be seen better. So far I haven't had any accidents.

I agree Grey cars do blend into the background.

That's why when I tarted driving my brother always told me to have my headlights on so I can be seen better. So far I haven't had any accidents.

I agree Grey cars do blend into the background.


I try to keep my headlights on, too. Sometimes I forget, but my car isn't gray.

Do motorcycles have automatic running lights? I would think so.

I try to keep my headlights on, too. Sometimes I forget, but my car isn't gray.

Do motorcycles have automatic running lights? I would think so.

Everyone I have seen does. It is a safety feature. That's why alot of cars have them on them. My car isn't gray either but it's just habit

Why does everyone assume the car was at fault? Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people. The truth will be revealed soon. Don't think some of you are going to like it.

Why does everyone assume the car was at fault? Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people. The truth will be revealed soon. Don't think some of you are going to like it.

I don't think everyone is assuming the car is at fault. It looks like it's about 50/50. Would you like to start a poll?

I try to keep my headlights on, too. Sometimes I forget, but my car isn't gray.

Do motorcycles have automatic running lights? I would think so.Bob's bike has lights that automatically turn on when the engine is running. His bike is also equipped with a set of extra-bright, high-density lights in a triangle formation that makes him very visible in almost any weather condition, night or day. It makes me feel better about his decision to ride a bike to know that he is hyper-vigilant in his protective gear, his helmet, and with the special equipment he's attached to his bike.

But that still doesn't eliminate the possibility of him having an accident. That terrifies me.

True and it can end up being that the driver of the car can be the primary victim in this mess so I don't appreciate the possibly unjustified blame and hatred being expressed at the driver of the car. It's very much uncalled for at this point in time.

:yay: I am usually one of the first to start throwing stones at the dumb ones, but without the facts I sit with my bag of rocks.

Something I've noticed...gray vehicles blend in with the road. Has anyone else noticed this? Every time I've ever pulled out in front of a vehicle, it has been gray.

Come to think of it, you might have a point.

I just got rid of a red truck and hardly ever had issues, I can think of one vehicle in 2 years of owning it - the dark green one I have now really blends in and I have had quite a few people pull out in front of me lately...

Why does everyone assume the car was at fault? Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people. The truth will be revealed soon. Don't think some of you are going to like it.

Read the whole thread, I do not think that is the case. :coffee:

:yay: I am usually one of the first to start throwing stones at the dumb ones, but without the facts I sit with my bag of rocks.



Come to think of it, you might have a point.

I just got rid of a red truck and hardly ever had issues, I can think of one vehicle in 2 years of owning it - the dark green one I have now really blends in and I have had quite a few people pull out in front of me lately...


I can see that blending in with the background...lot's of trees around here.

That said, I think a lot of people just don't pay attention (not pointing a finger at the driver of the car in this accident). People pull out in front of me all the time....or dash ahead of me to make a left turn when they don't have the right of way. I've noticed that a lot.

My hubby and I both ride and this was a terrible accident. They were just married in June of this year. Here is a link to their obituary;

Macon.com | Obituaries (http://www.legacy.com/Macon/DeathNotices.asp?page=SearchResults&DateRange=Today&Product=0)

:bawl: This is an incredibly sad situation for all involved. Two, young newlyweds have lost their lives and another young woman will live with the grief knowing that she was involved in their untimely deaths.
Whether the young woman driving the car was or wasn't at fault, she will still carry a heavy burden on her shoulders for many years to come.
Prayers go out to the individuals and the families of all involved.

We do not know the entire facts of the story. :shrug:

You are assuming Lateesha stated "I just didn't see him." - It is not in the article you are referring to, unless you know something more than we do...

If this is truly the case, I agree stiffer penalties should be in place when a car is at fault in a motorcycle accident.
So, if lets say someone driving a big pickup truck were to accidentally (accidents do happen) pulled out in front of,, oh lets say a Civic, should the driver of the truck be subject to stiffer penalties than if he would have been driving a smart car?

why should size or weight of the vehicle come into play when its an accident?


Example.
My driveway enters directly onto 214, almost at the crest of a hill.
I almost got hit by a rice rocket about a month ago.

I looked both ways, it was clear, I started to pull out.
right as I get about to the center of the road, here comes Mr rice rocket running about 70 or 80 mph over the crest of the hill.
as luck would have it, I jammed the breaks and he was an able enough driver to quickly shift to the shoulder and clear the front of the truck.

now, had we hit, y'all would be calling for stiff penalties against me because the cycle was being ridden in an a-hole like manner?


its not always the fault of the driver.


on the other hand, I almost hit a bike on the beltway the other day when I was changing lanes, He was doing nothing wrong other than riding in my blind spot.. I noticed him just in time to pull back.

Why does everyone assume the car was at fault? Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people. The truth will be revealed soon. Don't think some of you are going to like it.

Where did that come from?

Why does everyone assume the car was at fault? Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people. The truth will be revealed soon. Don't think some of you are going to like it.

Okay what people need to realize is that a bike is going to leave skid marks trying to stop suddenly. a motorcycle only has about 6"square of rubber on the road at any given time. thats equals about 1 tire on a car.no ABS and no, I'm bigger than they are sensors,in a emergency stop it's hard to control.

GOOGLE Motorcycle Accidents.

DId the Airbags deploy? If not there wasn't enough force to cause them to deploy which means that the VICTIMS were not going that fast.

This blame game is stupid when everyone knows the only reason these things happen is becuae people drive too fast (cars, trucks, busses, semis, and bikers ALL) and don't pay enough attention. People are impatient with their tailgating and demanding everyone drive at 80 or get the h### out of my way. People fumbling with their cell phones weaving, speeding up and slowing down.

All of you know who I'm talking about and all of you know if this is you. THAT'S why these accidents happen. Not because people have it out for bikers. No one is paying attention, no one is staying within a reasonable speed limit, no one is driving with care and patience.

Okay what people need to realize is that a bike is going to leave skid marks trying to stop suddenly. a motorcycle only has about 6"square of rubber on the road at any given time. thats equals about 1 tire on a car.no ABS and no, I'm bigger than they are sensors,in a emergency stop it's hard to control.

GOOGLE Motorcycle Accidents.

DId the Airbags deploy? If not there wasn't enough force to cause them to deploy which means that the VICTIMS were not going that fast.

This post was just plain stupid ...:bs:

Okay what people need to realize is that a bike is going to leave skid marks trying to stop suddenly. a motorcycle only has about 6"square of rubber on the road at any given time. thats equals about 1 tire on a car.no ABS and no, I'm bigger than they are sensors,in a emergency stop it's hard to control.

GOOGLE Motorcycle Accidents.

DId the Airbags deploy? If not there wasn't enough force to cause them to deploy which means that the VICTIMS were not going that fast.
did the car have side air bags? if not, a side impact will not activate the front airbags.
next, if there were (and I have no clue) 200ft of skid, even though the bike would not have stopped, its speed would have been greatly reduced over that distance. So, even if there were side air bags, a speeding bike could have slowed enough in 200 ft to not activate the sensors.


My personal theory on this is to not try to guess what happened and place blame on either party, but instead to lend prayer and support for all involved in the tragic accident.
but thats just me.

My personal theory on this is to not try to guess what happened and place blame on either party, but instead to lend prayer and support for all involved in the tragic accident.
but thats just me.


Kudos BCP :howdy:
An ACCIDENT is just that ..... it's an ACCIDENT. I'm sure the couple on the motorcycle and the driver of the car did not leave their homes knowing that they'd be involved in this horrific event. Accidents are unfortunate and sad but they happen nonetheless.

Something I've noticed...gray vehicles blend in with the road. Has anyone else noticed this? Every time I've ever pulled out in front of a vehicle, it has been gray.

My daughter got in a minor fender bender at 16. The car was white. Police said most don't see white either.
Living in FL there are bikes everywhere. I always look twice. I saw a HD the other day that even had lights on his foot pegs.

Okay what people need to realize is that a bike is going to leave skid marks trying to stop suddenly. a motorcycle only has about 6"square of rubber on the road at any given time. thats equals about 1 tire on a car.no ABS and no, I'm bigger than they are sensors,in a emergency stop it's hard to control.

GOOGLE Motorcycle Accidents.

DId the Airbags deploy? If not there wasn't enough force to cause them to deploy which means that the VICTIMS were not going that fast.

I agree, but lets not forget its about 1/8 of the weight of a car. Does it really need 2/3 of a football field to stop when doing the lawful speed limit of 40 mph? And does that speed (during deceleration from 40 mph after 200 feet of attempting to stop) still produce enough force to kill?. Airbags only deploy if the sensors are hit. And the 200 feet comes from a source more reliable than a forum rumor It's just been rounded up. It was actually more like 180 feet.

I agree, but lets not forget its about 1/8 of the weight of a car. Does it really need 2/3 of a football field to stop when doing the lawful speed limit of 40 mph? And does that speed (during deceleration from 40 mph after 200 feet of attempting to stop) still produce enough force to kill?. Airbags only deploy if the sensors are hit. And the 200 feet comes from a source more reliable than a forum rumor It's just been rounded up. It was actually more like 180 feet.

Here is a page that tlks alot about motorcycle skidmarks. Not sure if it really covers what needs to be covered and I am still looking. But aparantly if the front brake is used to stop it's going to leave behind a skid mark no matter what or I could of read it wrong.

Mechanical Forensics: Motorcycle Braking (http://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html)

This post was just plain stupid ...:bs:

:bigwhoop::bigwhoop::bigwhoop:

I agree, but lets not forget its about 1/8 of the weight of a car. Does it really need 2/3 of a football field to stop when doing the lawful speed limit of 40 mph? And does that speed (during deceleration from 40 mph after 200 feet of attempting to stop) still produce enough force to kill?. Airbags only deploy if the sensors are hit. And the 200 feet comes from a source more reliable than a forum rumor It's just been rounded up. It was actually more like 180 feet.

Well as of right now it's a forum rumor to me.

But, no, I could stop my bike in much less than that. You should be able to bring a sport bike to a stop from 60mph within 150'. An extra person would add to that of course.
Oh, that's if you don't lock them up.

I can't find the other site that is really informative about skid marks. Someone posted it to Paso when her hubby wrecked his bike. I will keep looking or maybe if the person that posted it there could post it here.

TIA

So, if lets say someone driving a big pickup truck were to accidentally (accidents do happen) pulled out in front of,, oh lets say a Civic, should the driver of the truck be subject to stiffer penalties than if he would have been driving a smart car?

why should size or weight of the vehicle come into play when its an accident?


Example.
My driveway enters directly onto 214, almost at the crest of a hill.
I almost got hit by a rice rocket about a month ago.

I looked both ways, it was clear, I started to pull out.
right as I get about to the center of the road, here comes Mr rice rocket running about 70 or 80 mph over the crest of the hill.
as luck would have it, I jammed the breaks and he was an able enough driver to quickly shift to the shoulder and clear the front of the truck.

now, had we hit, y'all would be calling for stiff penalties against me because the cycle was being ridden in an a-hole like manner?


its not always the fault of the driver.


on the other hand, I almost hit a bike on the beltway the other day when I was changing lanes, He was doing nothing wrong other than riding in my blind spot.. I noticed him just in time to pull back.

Auto on auto I could care less - who is at fault is at fault. Bikes are tougher to see though and I fully understand where you are coming from.

I agree with you and everyone else, when the crotch rocket is hauling ass (or riding like a jack-ass) they are pretty much well asking for it; I call them 'statistics', Hoover calls them 'donors', but I am speaking when the auto is at fault.

AMA has been pushing for years, for stiffer penalties for at fault auto's when a motorcycle death has happened - and for stiffer penalties/fines for non fatalities as well.

AMA has been pushing for years, for stiffer penalties for at fault auto's when a motorcycle death has happened - and for stiffer penalties/fines for non fatalities as well.
There should be no more penalty for the driver when a motorycle is involved or a car is involved.
it it was an on purpose instead of an accident, then yes. but the reality is that accidents do happen.

There should be no more penalty for the driver when a motorycle is involved or a car is involved.
it it was an on purpose instead of an accident, then yes. but the reality is that accidents do happen.

Accidents do happen, but riding since I was 10, racing since 12 and street bikes since I was 17 'ish I am a little sensitive to the issue.

From my experience, the majority of the drivers seem to not watch out for motorcycles.

The AMA has done motor awareness campaigns which has helped reducing auto accidents with MC's, as well as state sponsored training and stiffer requirements for obtaining a MC license.

IMO - I still stand by the AMA's push stiffer penalties when the car is at fault... make examples out of a few and others should see. I just wish our judicial system was like that.

It seems to me that if you are aware that you are doing something dangerous you have 2 choices. Either stop doing it or take responsability for the results. Quit trying to make other people responsable for your actions.

Driving a vehicle and/or riding a motorcycle is a priviledge that too many people take for granted these days. Percentage wise there are just as many idiots out there driving vehicles as there are those riding motorcycles, and the people that don't pay attention to what they're doing need to accept responsibilty for their actions.

It has been stated that this was an accident. I call it an incident of stupidity on somebody's part. You have to treat the vehicle you're driving or the motorcycle you're riding with respect. Too many people feel they're invincible once they turn that ignition and push the vehicle/motorcycle beyond what the motor vehicle laws allow.

Place blame where blame is due, but also accept blame if that's the case. That goes for not only the victims, but for the family of the victims too.

Not a sermon...... Just a thought

Not to be mean, but when you get on a motorcycle, this is a risk you take. This is why you'll never catch me on a bike.

:yeahthat:

once again thank you mAlice :love:

I know the look isn't as "cool", but there are the neon-marked jackets that would be a help. If I were riding, I'd say, anything to make it safer! Yet, I don't see too many people wearing them?

Driving a vehicle and/or riding a motorcycle is a priviledge that too many people take for granted these days. Percentage wise there are just as many idiots out there driving vehicles as there are those riding motorcycles, and the people that don't pay attention to what they're doing need to accept responsibilty for their actions.

It has been stated that this was an accident. I call it an incident of stupidity on somebody's part. You have to treat the vehicle you're driving or the motorcycle you're riding with respect. Too many people feel they're invincible once they turn that ignition and push the vehicle/motorcycle beyond what the motor vehicle laws allow.

Place blame where blame is due, but also accept blame if that's the case. That goes for not only the victims, but for the family of the victims too.

Not a sermon...... Just a thought

Do I understand you right, that you want the family of the victims to share the blame for their deaths?
IMO, An accident did happen (I define accident as an unintended event with unintended consequences), but someone is usually to blame for using poor judgment, at the very least. I don't see how you can put part of the blame on the parents of those deceased.
The person driving the car, whether she saw them or not, did pull out in front of them. Maybe she thought they were farther away or moving slower than they were, known only to her at this time.
The person driving the bike might have contributed to the accident by going too fast.
Either way, I think responsibility for the accident has to be placed more heavily on the part of the person who failed to yield the right of way. A very sad burden for a person to have to carry.

Accidents do happen, but riding since I was 10, racing since 12 and street bikes since I was 17 'ish I am a little sensitive to the issue.

From my experience, the majority of the drivers seem to not watch out for motorcycles.

The AMA has done motor awareness campaigns which has helped reducing auto accidents with MC's, as well as state sponsored training and stiffer requirements for obtaining a MC license.

IMO - I still stand by the AMA's push stiffer penalties when the car is at fault... make examples out of a few and others should see. I just wish our judicial system was like that.

And what sort of stiffer penalty would you give me for the biker, that was going too fast and following to close to me when he rearended me and caused over $5000 worth of damage to my brand new car?

Why do you want to penalize people because they didn't see a vehicle 1/8th their size? The same lack of awareness that caused this accident in Lexington Park is the same lack of awareness that causes any other accident. I can give you dozens of times where I never even saw a biker coming; and it had zero to do with whether I was paying attention; it was mostly because the guy was going too fast and riding too erratically and making unpredictable moves. You have all these demands for auto drivers but nothing for bikers. Why aren’t you asking them to slow down, stay out of our blind spots, don’t make lane changes that cut right in front of you without a signal, stop riding with the mentality “I’m small, I can fit”?

Ok, few moments to play with numbers here, (bet Im close when the actual results are known.)

this is based on
180 ft total skid
asphalt road surface, (guess on my part)
assumption that only back wheel was skidding on the bike.

now, had the bike actually stopped at the end of that 180ft without hitting the car,

we take the numbers.

Where "S" will equal speed.
C will equal a constant of 30 (just works that way in the equation,, sorta like pie is 3.14)
D will equal distance of the skid
F will be the drag factor of the road
N will be braking efficency based an the assumption of a 70% braking. (100 % would have had the front wheel skidding also.)

so, we take the Square Root of C*D*F*N to get S (S was the speed)

30*180*.75*.70 = 2835
Square Root of 2835 = 53.24

so, based on that, I get 53.24 mph pre braking speed ,, IF the bike would have stopped on its own at the end of the 180 ft. but, it didnt, it had enough speed to hit the car hard enough to create the damage, and to tragically end the lives of the two on the bike.

Do I understand you right, that you want the family of the victims to share the blame for their deaths?
IMO, An accident did happen (I define accident as an unintended event with unintended consequences), but someone is usually to blame for using poor judgment, at the very least. I don't see how you can put part of the blame on the parents of those deceased.
The person driving the car, whether she saw them or not, did pull out in front of them. Maybe she thought they were farther away or moving slower than they were, known only to her at this time.
The person driving the bike might have contributed to the accident by going too fast.
Either way, I think responsibility for the accident has to be placed more heavily on the part of the person who failed to yield the right of way. A very sad burden for a person to have to carry.

If the one(s) that perished were at fault due to their own stupidity, the family members should accept that fact and not place blame on the other party. This happens way too often.

A perfect example was the drag racing event on Rte. 210 in Accokeek earlier this year. The ones that died and their families should accept "equal" blame in that incident and not try to put the whole thing on the driver of that car. Anyone with any amount of common sense should tell you not to be in the middle of a major highway at 3am in the morning.

I think this is just crazy for people to speculate. It's obvious it was someone's fault but no one has intentions of causing an acccident to happen. You are all missing the main point and that is that they are all victims! I pray for the family that has lost their loved ones as well as the other party involved. it's not easy to live with knowing that you were involved in an incident where someone lost their life. All the accusations that everyone is making mean nothing at all because your are not doing the investigation. Either way someone is not going to like the outcome. Remember that the battle is The Lords.

And what sort of stiffer penalty would you give me for the biker, that was going too fast and following to close to me when he rearended me and caused over $5000 worth of damage to my brand new car?

Why do you want to penalize people because they didn't see a vehicle 1/8th their size? The same lack of awareness that caused this accident in Lexington Park is the same lack of awareness that causes any other accident. I can give you dozens of times where I never even saw a biker coming; and it had zero to do with whether I was paying attention; it was mostly because the guy was going too fast and riding too erratically and making unpredictable moves. You have all these demands for auto drivers but nothing for bikers. Why aren’t you asking them to slow down, stay out of our blind spots, don’t make lane changes that cut right in front of you without a signal, stop riding with the mentality “I’m small, I can fit”?

:rolleyes: We do not know what caused this accident now do we?

Listen to me - if the auto/driver is at fault for causing an accident to a motorcyclist, who is obeying the law, then stiffer fines/penalties should be levied.

No where did I say a jack-ass on a motorcycle who slams into a car and the auto driver gets smacked hard with fines and penalties - where in the hell did you derive that from?

This is my opinion, sorry if you disagree and want to argue the point but I stand by what I just said.

If the one(s) that perished were at fault due to their own stupidity, the family members should accept that fact and not place blame on the other party. This happens way too often.

A perfect example was the drag racing event on Rte. 210 in Accokeek earlier this year. The ones that died and their families should accept "equal" blame in that incident and not try to put the whole thing on the driver of that car. Anyone with any amount of common sense should tell you not to be in the middle of a major highway at 3am in the morning.

There might be a difference between standing in a multi-lane highway with your back to oncoming traffic and riding down the street to your home.

Im thinking somewhere around 81 mph at the time the rider saw the car.

that would give a few feet of breaking prior to the skid starting,
then, leave an impact speed of right around 30 mph, or enough force to stop the bike about 230 ft before it would have otherwise stopped without something getting in its way.

:rolleyes: We do not know what caused this accident now do we?

Listen to me - if the auto/driver is at fault for causing an accident to a motorcyclist, who is obeying the law, then stiffer fines/penalties should be levied.

No where did I say a jack-ass on a motorcycle who slams into a car and the auto driver gets smacked hard with fines and penalties - where in the hell did you derive that from?

This is my opinion, sorry if you disagree and want to argue the point but I stand by what I just said.

Now you listen to me…

I want a stiffer fine imposed on the biker that ruined my brand new car. If it were a car, the drive probably would have been able to stop. But since it was a biker and he didn’t consider his ability to stop is increasingly less than a car he should be in jail…. I mean given your logic.

ALL accidents are a result, to a larger degree, of someone’s recklessness. I’m not blaming anyone in this accident, but one or both drove with a level of recklessness that caused the accident.

I dont see where a life in a car is worth less than a life on a motorcycle.

I want a stiffer fine imposed on the biker that ruined my brand new car. If it were a car, the drive probably would have been able to stop. But since it was a biker and he didn’t consider his ability to stop is increasingly less than a car he should be in jail…. I mean given your logic.

Lobby for it, it is your right. :yay: Like it's my right to be a member of the AMA and believe in the concept.

Your logic above is full of "probably"...

Last I recall, that is a 40 mph road in that section... how fast was the bike going? If the bike was going considerably faster than the posted speed limit then the biker is the primary blame for this unfortunate event.
:yeahthat:

I don't know of the exact details of this case but the motorcyclist is not always the victim.

I was actually hit in my drivers side door by a speeding motorcyclist going about 40 mph. Totaled my Chevy Blazer. I was glad to have my window down that day, otherwise it would have shattered in my face.

There might be a difference between standing in a multi-lane highway with your back to oncoming traffic and riding down the street to your home.

Nowhere have I mentioned anything about the specific incident this thread was started about. Therefore, I have not taken any side or placed any blame regarding the driver of the car or the one that was riding the motorcycle.

I was trying to make a point that we all see idiots that drive vehicles and ride motorcycles in such a manner that violates the motor vehicle laws of Maryland. Sometimes these idiots die because of their actions. The sad thing is that when this does occur, you have friends and/or relatives that jump up to place blame on the innocent party instead of the one that was actually responsible.

. The sad thing is that when this does occur, you have friends and/or relatives that jump up to place blame on the innocent party instead of the one that was actually responsible.

thats the point I was making in my post earlier

If I would have hit, or been hit by the bike that sped over the hill as I was pulling out of the driveway, I would have felt no blame for that accident.

if on the other hand I would have hit the guy in my blindspot on the beltway the other day, I would have been responsible for that.

just depends on what happens leading up to the accident.

Excessive speed and blind spots never mix well.

I feel bad for the families of all involved.

Would stiffer penalties do help? I doubt it. It'd make the victims feel a bit better, but that's about it.

Some bikers will still speed. Inexperinced bikers will still blow through intersections and across the paths of sideroad entrances with little to no caution.

There's alot that could have been done differently by both parties, it seems. And once again, we have a bad accident within a half mile of BOTH drivers residences. How can anyone not know by now that that is the most dangerous area for drivers...within a half mile of your residence, due purely to complacency.

I came VERY close just yesterday a half a block from my house, to getting creamed. Woman crossing a 4 lane road to go down my street that is used for a short cut for many drivers, assumed that I was turning into the parking lot before the street, and came zipping straight across to beat the cars that were behind me, and would have run me the hell over had I not stopped. She didn't even tap her brakes. She had this total look of confusion and "oh shiat" on her face. Her passenger was horrified with eyes WIDE open apparently thinking that I'd be in her lap.

#### like this happens every day, to bikers and cagers alike. People are ignorant behind the wheel and make bad assumptions if they fit their agenda.
This is where "Road Rage" starts. This is where accidents happen and people get hurt or killed.

I agree with the post above... I've been around bikes and bikers my entire life and I'd like to think that the ones I know are responsible and alert. UNLIKE the JA who, at dusk, pulled a wheelie through the rte4/Indian bridge intersection.... mind you, he had a green and I had a green from the other direction.... I normally would have had plenty of time to turn but sensed this guy was going to do something stupid and he did. If I would have turned as usual, he would have creamed my starboard side with his wheel in the air. Plenty of witnesses but I'm sure there are those who would assume that I was at fault when I wasn't. Instead of turning, I honked as he set his wheel down beside me and whipped into the parking lot across the street. I would have gone over to let him know he was lucky but it would have fell on deaf ignorant ears... Really wish a cop was there to take this kids bike away but I'm sure he'll do it again and may not be so lucky next time. Next time it may be a 20 something with minimal driving experience....

As far as the accident on Willows.... I'd like to hear from the accident investigators how fast he was going, was his headlight on and were there any skidmarks....

In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)



I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".

I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.

Oh, and I don't ride one (yet), but my Mom and Dad did, and I always worried about them; not because of my Dad's ability but for this very reason here.

:shrug:I didn't see this written anywhere

Phillip Brian Natalie, 26, of Lexington Park was driving the Yamaha R-1 motorcycle west on Willows Road at 5:43 p.m. that day, police report, when the motorcycle collided in the roadway's eastbound lane with a car turning left to enter that lane from Crimson Drive.


... and what was the bike doing in the eastbound lane if it was heading west...:confused:

Not that I was there but it may have been in the east bound lane because there was a car in the westbound lane that he had the right of way on??? Just a thought?

The car was also a Camry and I have seen several Camry's that are barely hit with anything get a huge dent in it.

It is posted 40 and I don't believe that they were going that fast since they lived right there just up the street.

:elaine:I don't know them or any details regarding the accident, however, people speed all the time within their own community

:elaine:I don't know them or any details regarding the accident, however, people speed all the time within their own community
not to mention that the skid from 40 would have been closer to 101.6 feet instead of 180

:elaine:I don't know them or any details regarding the accident, however, people speed all the time within their own community

The car was also a Camry and I have seen several Camry's that are barely hit with anything get a huge dent in it.

It is posted 40 and I don't believe that they were going that fast since they lived right there just up the street.

Since you seem to want to believe they were going no faster than 40 when they saw the car and couldn't slow down enough to avoid a collision that bad, fine, have it your way.

This blame game is stupid when everyone knows the only reason these things happen is becuae people drive too fast (cars, trucks, busses, semis, and bikers ALL) and don't pay enough attention. People are impatient with their tailgating and demanding everyone drive at 80 or get the h### out of my way. People fumbling with their cell phones weaving, speeding up and slowing down.

All of you know who I'm talking about and all of you know if this is you. THAT'S why these accidents happen. Not because people have it out for bikers. No one is paying attention, no one is staying within a reasonable speed limit, no one is driving with care and patience.

saw a butthole, driving a tan/brownish coloered jeep liberty, doing this yesterday afternoon; when we approached the McKays in Charlotte Hall, I noticed both drivers pulled over :popcorn:

I'm curious...if I see a motorcycle speeding toward me, and I know he's speeding and breaking the law, should I pull out in front of him?

not to mention that the skid from 40 would have been closer to 101.6 feet instead of 180

Too many assumptions bcp. Suppose while you are at it, that the skid mark was from the rear wheel and the front was supplying maximum braking capability. What then?

I'm curious...if I see a motorcycle speeding toward me, and I know he's speeding and breaking the law, should I pull out in front of him?

You could act like you are going to, just to watch the reaction.

Not really and especially not if its a black Yamaha with windshield.

Here is a page that tlks alot about motorcycle skidmarks. Not sure if it really covers what needs to be covered and I am still looking. But aparantly if the front brake is used to stop it's going to leave behind a skid mark no matter what or I could of read it wrong.

Mechanical Forensics: Motorcycle Braking (http://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html)

my thoughts are with all involved........however, you seem to know alot and what to convict the car driver. Did you know the victims or are you a rider?

Ok, few moments to play with numbers here, (bet Im close when the actual results are known.)

this is based on
180 ft total skid
asphalt road surface, (guess on my part)
assumption that only back wheel was skidding on the bike.

now, had the bike actually stopped at the end of that 180ft without hitting the car,

we take the numbers.

Where "S" will equal speed.
C will equal a constant of 30 (just works that way in the equation,, sorta like pie is 3.14)
D will equal distance of the skid
F will be the drag factor of the road
N will be braking efficency based an the assumption of a 70% braking. (100 % would have had the front wheel skidding also.)

so, we take the Square Root of C*D*F*N to get S (S was the speed)

30*180*.75*.70 = 2835
Square Root of 2835 = 53.24

so, based on that, I get 53.24 mph pre braking speed ,, IF the bike would have stopped on its own at the end of the 180 ft. but, it didnt, it had enough speed to hit the car hard enough to create the damage, and to tragically end the lives of the two on the bike.


I just did the same thing, based on the motorcycle braking site just posted.
D=1/2 A t^2
d=180
a=-.46g
t=4.89sec

v=t*a = 72feet per second deceleration under braking (48mph)

so speed was reduced at least 48mph before impact.

Accidents do happen, but riding since I was 10, racing since 12 and street bikes since I was 17 'ish I am a little sensitive to the issue.

From my experience, the majority of the drivers seem to not watch out for motorcycles.

The AMA has done motor awareness campaigns which has helped reducing auto accidents with MC's, as well as state sponsored training and stiffer requirements for obtaining a MC license.

IMO - I still stand by the AMA's push stiffer penalties when the car is at fault... make examples out of a few and others should see. I just wish our judicial system was like that.

how about being fair and make examples out of some of the riders as well.

how about being fair and examples out of some of the riders as well.

Being plastered across some stupid broads car isn't enough of an example for you?

Being plastered across some stupid broads car isn't enough of an example for you?

The Yamaha FZ600
Similar tests were conducted with a 1986 Yamaha FZ600. Sadly, two of the bike's front brake pads lost their friction material during testing, resulting in metal-on-metal contact which damaged the front brake rotors and resulted in poor overall stopping performance. The bike was equipped with Metzler street tires.

:yikes: Course that was an 86.

Being plastered across some stupid broads car isn't enough of an example for you?


nope!!

I agree with the post above... I've been around bikes and bikers my entire life and I'd like to think that the ones I know are responsible and alert. UNLIKE the JA who, at dusk, pulled a wheelie through the rte4/Indian bridge intersection.... mind you, he had a green and I had a green from the other direction.... I normally would have had plenty of time to turn but sensed this guy was going to do something stupid and he did. If I would have turned as usual, he would have creamed my starboard side with his wheel in the air. Plenty of witnesses but I'm sure there are those who would assume that I was at fault when I wasn't. Instead of turning, I honked as he set his wheel down beside me and whipped into the parking lot across the street. I would have gone over to let him know he was lucky but it would have fell on deaf ignorant ears... Really wish a cop was there to take this kids bike away but I'm sure he'll do it again and may not be so lucky next time. Next time it may be a 20 something with minimal driving experience....

As far as the accident on Willows.... I'd like to hear from the accident investigators how fast he was going, was his headlight on and were there any skidmarks....


:confused:

My thoughts and prayers also go out to both families. No matter who was at fault legally or technically both families are devastated by this event. However, just a tidbit of legal insight for those who are wondering about pulling out in front of someone that is speeding and if it would be their fault or yours. In Maryland we have the "boulevard rule" meaning that the vehicle that is established on the road that you wish to enter has the right of way no matter if they are speeding or not. The driver who pulls out in front of someone that is already traveling on that roadway and is struck is at fault, no matter if the other driver was speeding or not.

I just did the same thing, based on the motorcycle braking site just posted.
D=1/2 A t^2
d=180
a=-.46g
t=4.89sec

v=t*a = 72feet per second deceleration under braking (48mph)

so speed was reduced at least 48mph before impact.
interesting.
My method is for cars, I figured it would be close for bikes. does your method take into account road surface types?
just wondering. 5mph difference between the two methods. I would certainly say that your method showing a decrease in speed of 46 mph hour and mine showing 53 and change are close enough to make an uneducated assumption that the bike was not going the speed of 40mph when the driver saw the car.

there is another equation that the police use to get over all speed based on impact data too.

thats why my guess is somewhere around 80 mph before the brakes were applied.

interesting.
My method is for cars, I figured it would be close for bikes. does your method take into account road surface types?
just wondering. 5mph difference between the two methods. I would certainly say that your method showing a decrease in speed of 46 mph hour and mine showing 53 and change are close enough to make an uneducated assumption that the bike was not going the speed of 40mph when the driver saw the car.

there is another equation that the police use to get over all speed based on impact data too.

thats why my guess is somewhere around 80 mph before the brakes were applied.

it would be pretty tough to hit 80 around there. plus the guy wasn't that irresponsible, i really don't see it happening. but who knows, i've been wrong about people before.

it does sorta suck that 2 people died and all you guys can do is play the blame game, especially when you're blaming them. kinda sucks, don't you think? people are already sad about it and you just have to poke the bear and make em feel so much better. Bravo! Well done everyone! :clap:

it does sorta suck that 2 people died and all you guys can do is play the blame game, especially when you're blaming them. kinda sucks, don't you think? people are already sad about it and you just have to poke the bear and make em feel so much better. Bravo! Well done everyone! :clap:

Go back and read the freakin' first post in this thread and just his stuff for starting the freakin' game. The intent and entire purpose of this thread was wrong, wrong, wrong :boo:

Go back and read the freakin' first post in this thread and just his stuff for starting the freakin' game. The intent and entire purpose of this thread was wrong, wrong, wrong :boo:

I am not getting involved... I just wanted to give you some :smoochy:

it would be pretty tough to hit 80 around there. plus the guy wasn't that irresponsible, i really don't see it happening. but who knows, i've been wrong about people before.

it does sorta suck that 2 people died and all you guys can do is play the blame game, especially when you're blaming them. kinda sucks, don't you think? people are already sad about it and you just have to poke the bear and make em feel so much better. Bravo! Well done everyone! :clap:

The majority of posters in this thread are saying "wait for the facts" Other discussions have spun off of the OP, just like any other time.

Start at page 1 and get back to us a bit later. :coffee:

The majority of posters in this thread are saying "wait for the facts" Other discussions have spun off of the OP, just like any other time.

Start at page 1 and get back to us a bit later. :coffee:

waiting for the facts was not the intention when the original post put the blame on the driver of the car.

as far as the facts go, All Im saying is that if it is factual that there was a skid mark from the bike that was 180 ft in length before hitting, it would have been a decrease in speed (depending on whos math we look at) of 48 mph, or 53 mph. (physics,, fact) that leaves after that decrease, enough speed to cause the tragic death of two people, and the life long realization that she was involved in the accident for another.

nobody is saying, I bet it was the guy on the motorcycles fault, because thats how they all ride. We are simply putting numbers to information that was given on this thread.

now, even if he was speeding, does that clear all of the blame from the driver of the car without question? no. Now we are back to waiting for the police to come up with a report on the cause, or causes of the accident to see if it was avoidable on either persons part.

Too many assumptions bcp. Suppose while you are at it, that the skid mark was from the rear wheel and the front was supplying maximum braking capability. What then?
thats what I was figuring.
I figured it at a roughly 75% braking from the front, leaving the back to go light, Depending on the weight of the riders, that number can change from 70 to well, 100 if the driver can maintain a hard stop on one wheel.

other than that, what assumptions are being made?
the number for the road is correct, the length of the skid is correct as far as this thread goes.
the only real guess is the actual differential between front and back.

Go back and read the freakin' first post in this thread and just his stuff for starting the freakin' game. The intent and entire purpose of this thread was wrong, wrong, wrong :boo:
the first post was a lame way to start, i wasn't arguing that at all. it's just a really crappy thread altogether.

The majority of posters in this thread are saying "wait for the facts" Other discussions have spun off of the OP, just like any other time.

Start at page 1 and get back to us a bit later. :coffee:

I posted near the beginning, first off. So I've been reading through, since I knew the victims. Second, I know there were plenty of people saying "wait for the facts". Was I criticizing anyone that said that? No. But just because 10 people say "wait" and 5 people say "this person is the guilty party boo hiss" should nothing be said? That's a bad way to look at it.

If you didn't say anything wrong then why do you feel like my post affected you? Why get defensive if you merely said wait for the facts? I was criticizing people who were making a stupid bull#### argument out of an accident that took the lives of two people when there weren't any facts one way or the other. The person who started the thread was making a really poor assumption, but so were the people arguing on it one way or the other (if they tried to point fingers on who was to blame without knowing squat).

That's all. It's not hard. The fact that this thread is still open when other threads get deleted for wandering off topic or random banter is pretty pathetic. Doesn't say much for standards around here. There isn't anything much more insulting than arguing over whether some guy and his wife were at fault for their death because he was potentially speeding on his motorcycle. Or did I wake up in the twilight zone this morning?

And just why does it have to be a woman?:cds:

cell phones and makeup,, known fact.

the first post was a lame way to start, i wasn't arguing that at all. it's just a really crappy thread altogether.
and it set the tone for the rest of the thread.




There isn't anything much more insulting than arguing over whether some guy and his wife were at fault for their death because he was potentially speeding on his motorcycle. Or did I wake up in the twilight zone this morning


nope you didnt wake up in the twilight zone, however, when the first thread totally blames the woman, and calls for serious punishment of her. well, at that point, (since some supposed facts were offered) it was nothing more than to point out that maybe, just maybe this woman is not totally to blame.

I missed the thread where you stuck up for the woman when this all started, I apologize for that.

Seems strange to me that there was like 200 feet of skidmarks from the bike yet the bike still struck with enough force to kill 2 people.

I don't know any of the specifics of this accident and thus can't give an informed opinion about fault. However, generally speaking, motorcycle skid marks aren't as reliable an indication of speed as car skid marks are. So says a MSP accident investigator.

thats what I was figuring.
I figured it at a roughly 75% braking from the front, leaving the back to go light, Depending on the weight of the riders, that number can change from 70 to well, 100 if the driver can maintain a hard stop on one wheel.

other than that, what assumptions are being made?
the number for the road is correct, the length of the skid is correct as far as this thread goes.
the only real guess is the actual differential between front and back.

I hadn't realized you were so thorough, good job.

how about being fair and make examples out of some of the riders as well.

There are two in the morgue you can make examples of

Lobby for it, it is your right. :yay: Like it's my right to be a member of the AMA and believe in the concept.

Your logic above is full of "probably"...

And your logic ignores the fact that every biker should have the reality that when they get on the road, just like any other kind of driver, they could get in an accident. The only difference being a bike against a car... the bike is going to lose. THAT is the reality of it. Your logic omits that reality. Someone driving a car should not be held to some higher consequence just because they get in an accident with a vehicle that is more difficult to see and the result is more catestrphic. I mean given this logic if a semi crushes a Civic they should be fined more heavily than if a Lexus crashed with a Civic.

Last I recall, that is a 40 mph road in that section... how fast was the bike going? If the bike was going considerably faster than the posted speed limit then the biker is the primary blame for this unfortunate event.

They could not have been going too fast the forks were not bent inward. I would say between 30-50 mph on estimate. Forks will bend pretty easily on impact.

it would be pretty tough to hit 80 around there. plus the guy wasn't that irresponsible, i really don't see it happening. but who knows, i've been wrong about people before.

it does sorta suck that 2 people died and all you guys can do is play the blame game, especially when you're blaming them. kinda sucks, don't you think? people are already sad about it and you just have to poke the bear and make em feel so much better. Bravo! Well done everyone! :clap:
:confused:so how irresponsible are you saying he was? and if the driver of the car was being blamed, it would be o.k?

They could not have been going too fast the forks were not bent inward. I would say between 30-50 mph on estimate. Forks will bend pretty easily on impact.


At first I thought the same thing but if you look at the photos on Thebaynet
It looks a lot to me like the bike sideswiped the car.

I would never own a bike around here. To many idiots on the road in a big hurry to go nowhere.

on the side of the bike riders.
the main reason I stopped riding bikes was because when I lived in virginia Beach, it seemed like drivers would look right at you, make eye contact, then just pull into your lane.

face it, you are on a bike, what are you going to do?

so, even though I dont totally agree with stricter penalties for a driver that hits a cycle, I can certainly understand the reason behind it. Anyone that does not understand has never been on a bike on the road.

They could not have been going too fast the forks were not bent inward. I would say between 30-50 mph on estimate. Forks will bend pretty easily on impact.
did the bike hit straight on? did he try to turn away from the car and hit sideways?

on the side of the bike riders.
the main reason I stopped riding bikes was because when I lived in virginia Beach, it seemed like drivers would look right at you, make eye contact, then just pull into your lane.

face it, you are on a bike, what are you going to do?

so, even though I dont totally agree with stricter penalties for a driver that hits a cycle, I can certainly understand the reason behind it. Anyone that does not understand has never been on a bike on the road.

I totally agree with stricter penalties for a driver that hits a cycle, if it is the driver's fault.

That said, how often do you see someone on a motorcycle talking on a cell phone, putting on makeup, arguing with kids in the backseat, zoning out to music etc.?

How often do you see a car doing 80 through bumper to bumper traffic down the center line, weaving back and forth around the cars?

the problem with what you are suggesting is that you are putting a higher degree of worth on the asshat biker on the crotch rocket, than you are on the newborn in the car seat that ends up dead because somebody didnt look before they pulled out.

How often do you see a car doing 80 through bumper to bumper traffic down the center line, weaving back and forth around the cars?

the problem with what you are suggesting is that you are putting a higher degree of worth on the asshat biker on the crotch rocket, than you are on the newborn in the car seat that ends up dead because somebody didnt look before they pulled out.


Are you replying to me? I agree that the crotch rockets totally eff it up for those of us that just want to ride. Not all crotch rocket riders, but seems to be the majority of them. Not Lug, not some others I have seen, but the young "I'll never die" riders. And they give the rest of us a bad rep.

I totally agree with stricter penalties for a driver that hits a cycle, if it is the driver's fault.

Outside of proving that the driver of the car purposely hit the biker simply because he was riding a bike, explain the rationale for this?

Are you replying to me? I agree that the crotch rockets totally eff it up for those of us that just want to ride. Not all crotch rocket riders, but seems to be the majority of them. Not Lug, not some others I have seen, but the young "I'll never die" riders. And they give the rest of us a bad rep.
generally speaking, the crotch riders are the ones that you read about most of the time.
not all, but most.

but as far as a greater penalty for the driver? I really doubt that any driver pulls out of the driveway with the intention of knocking down a bike.

like I said earlier, I almost hit one the other day on the beltway, he was in my blind spot, and if I didnt have a habit of keeping an eye on my mirror during the lane change, I would have hit him.
certainly not because I wanted to kill a biker.

That said, how often do you see someone on a motorcycle talking on a cell phone, putting on makeup, arguing with kids in the backseat, zoning out to music etc.?

Sounds like your typical Goldwing rider

Outside of proving that the driver of the car purposely hit the biker simply because he was riding a bike, explain the rationale for this?

Awareness, my friend. Pay attention. Cars aren't the only things on the road.

generally speaking, the crotch riders are the ones that you read about most of the time.
not all, but most.

but as far as a greater penalty for the driver? I really doubt that any driver pulls out of the driveway with the intention of knocking down a bike.

like I said earlier, I almost hit one the other day on the beltway, he was in my blind spot, and if I didnt have a habit of keeping an eye on my mirror during the lane change, I would have hit him.
certainly not because I wanted to kill a biker.

And I was switching lanes the other day, doing the speed limit of 50, saw a car doing about the same speed as me, behind me in my left lane, checked over my shoulder, put my blinker on, gave her plenty of notice that I was moving over, gassed it and she sped it up to about 65 to keep me from cutting in. When I got over, I realized she had sped up and was trying to cut me off. Would it have been my fault if I got hit? Probably. I ASSumed she wasn't going to speed up when she saw my blinker and try to cut me off. She didn't want to let me in. Thank God I throttled it up as high as I could.

Sounds like your typical Goldwing rider

Hey! I resemble that! And I woulda waved at ya but I couldn't find the wave button.....

Hey! I resemble that! And I woulda waved at ya but I couldn't find the wave button.....


You're a safe rider. :huggy: I don't even know if I want to get on my bike again after the little incident a few weeks ago. There are so many aggressive drivers in a hurry around here.

Too many assumptions bcp. Suppose while you are at it, that the skid mark was from the rear wheel and the front was supplying maximum braking capability. What then?

A very good assumption because if the front locks, the bike will go down in no time flat.

it would be pretty tough to hit 80 around there.

Not for an R1. An R1 can probably get to 80 in about 3 seconds. maybe less...and it will only be in second gear.

Not for an R1. An R1 can probably get to 80 in about 3 seconds. maybe less...and it will only be in second gear.

:shrug: i guess so, they can rev up fast. depends on which way they were going...1 side was around a curve, the other was straight. not sure if the car was making a left or right turn (i forget, don't feel like reading again). i drove by earlier this evening on the way out to meet you guys.

Speaking of which, someone was commenting on what side of the road they were on and it being the "wrong" side. They were undoubtedly on the correct side of the road (whichever side that was) and swerved + skidded to the opposite side. it fit regardless of which side they were on. Doesn't rule out speeding or anything, but it doesn't appear they were being wreckless by driving on the wrong side, like someone had suggested.

Sounds like your typical Goldwing rider

now that was funny; almost:smack:

Okay what people need to realize is that a bike is going to leave skid marks trying to stop suddenly. a motorcycle only has about 6"square of rubber on the road at any given time. thats equals about 1 tire on a car.no ABS and no, I'm bigger than they are sensors,in a emergency stop it's hard to control.

GOOGLE Motorcycle Accidents.

DId the Airbags deploy? If not there wasn't enough force to cause them to deploy which means that the VICTIMS were not going that fast.



Kudos BCP :howdy:
An ACCIDENT is just that ..... it's an ACCIDENT. I'm sure the couple on the motorcycle and the driver of the car did not leave their homes knowing that they'd be involved in this horrific event. Accidents are unfortunate and sad but they happen nonetheless.


Okay, a few facts on airbags. They dont deploy "when the sensors get hit", they deploy when the sensors detect enough deceleration over time to indicate a crash of enough severity that injuries are likely. And the pics I saw looked nothing like that amount of force was applied to the car, as noted, it was a sideswipe kinda deal, not massive deceleration to the car.

About "accidents". Crash folks dont like to use that term, theres very few real accidents. Meaning an incident that could not be prevented, in one way or another. Ivestigators use something like an incident chain, identifying the choices that led up to the incident.

Since we dont know the physical facts of the incident, we have no way to identify who made what choices, and therefore cant analyze this incident properly.

I will note my 4100lb car, with a much worse power to weight ratio than the R1, can get to 60 in under 5 seconds. Theres very, very few patches of pavement short enough that I cant get to 60 in them. An R-1 can most likely, even with two aboard, hit 80 in the same or better.

Non-riders really dont appreciate how fast these things can get to ludicrous speed.

Sounds like your typical Goldwing rider

:killingme

That's only funny because I have seen something like that

I ride a gl1800 by the way

They could not have been going too fast the forks were not bent inward. I would say between 30-50 mph on estimate. Forks will bend pretty easily on impact.

are you sure they didn't high side...the bike may not have hit head on

These threads make me very sad.

All of my friends...I know you are good and safe. The people around you are not.

Riding a bike is something I would love to do if there were no crazy distracted drivers on the road.

I will continue to worry and pray for all of you who choose to get on a motorcycle. I will do my best to see you, but no promises there. If I kill one of you I will want to kill myself.

Prayers for the young couple lost and the families who are going through the grief. Also, for the woman who was driving the car.

It could have been me or you.

They could not have been going too fast the forks were not bent inward. I would say between 30-50 mph on estimate. Forks will bend pretty easily on impact.

I think the big question is how fast before that?

Read the next quote.

At first I thought the same thing but if you look at the photos on Thebaynet
It looks a lot to me like the bike sideswiped the car.

Looks like it to me also.

are you sure they didn't high side...the bike may not have hit head on

From the marks on the car it looks like the bike was upright when it hit and looking at where the bike and bodies ended up it looks like they were all together at impact.

These threads make me very sad.

All of my friends...I know you are good and safe. The people around you are not.

Riding a bike is something I would love to do if there were no crazy distracted drivers on the road.

I will continue to worry and pray for all of you who choose to get on a motorcycle. I will do my best to see you, but no promises there. If I kill one of you I will want to kill myself.

Prayers for the young couple lost and the families who are going through the grief. Also, for the woman who was driving the car.

It could have been me or you.

Makes me sad to hear about people losing their lives early too.
fact is, those drivers that speed up to cut off the bike, or pull out because they "think" they have enough room, do it to other cars too. I dont think it has to do with a bike, it has to do with ignorance.
this is why I think that additional penalties for hitting a bike are not a very good idea. do we also give harsher punishment if someone in a tractor trailer has an accident with a small car? where would the break off for punishment be?
F-250 vs Smart car? does the driver of the F-250 face harsher treatment?

Makes me sad to hear about people losing their lives early too.
fact is, those drivers that speed up to cut off the bike, or pull out because they "think" they have enough room, do it to other cars too. I dont think it has to do with a bike, it has to do with ignorance.
this is why I think that additional penalties for hitting a bike are not a very good idea. do we also give harsher punishment if someone in a tractor trailer has an accident with a small car? where would the break off for punishment be?
F-250 vs Smart car? does the driver of the F-250 face harsher treatment?

smart cars are smart in Europe and absolutely retarded in america. i don't know why anyone would drive one.

agreed, a motorcycle (or any other vehicle) on the road is treated just like any other. That's the rules of the road. All vehicles are created equal (or maybe treated equally? :lol: bad joke...sorry).

360 degree cameras should be installed on ALL vehicles and in the case of an accident the tape should be allowed in court to discover what really happened.

now, if someone cuts off a bike because its a bike, then I say let them burn in hell. And, from riding, I do know that these ignorant individuals get behind the wheel on a regular basis.
At least they used to, I dont expect things have changed much.


I would be riding now if not for my mongloidian and hideous disability that keeps me from shifting or holding the bike up safely.

oh well, look at the bright side, I can get the best parking at the store if I feel like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyOps
Outside of proving that the driver of the car purposely hit the biker simply because he was riding a bike, explain the rationale for this?


Awareness, my friend. Pay attention. Cars aren't the only things on the road.

Using that line of thinking, the penalty for ALL violations should be increased. It's an ignorant proposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyOps
Outside of proving that the driver of the car purposely hit the biker simply because he was riding a bike, explain the rationale for this?




Using that line of thinking, the penalty for ALL violations should be increased. It's an ignorant proposal.
little harsh calling her ignorant, BS is far from that.

but, I do think that those on bikes also have to understand that they are not always the easiest thing to see on the road.

dont even get me started on the rice rockets on the highway that pass you at 100+ miles per hour.

If, there were to be greater fines, punishment for being involved with a motorcycle in an accident, I would expect that there be greater fines and penalties for the riders of those motorcycles when they get caught riding like an ass, or speeding.

They need to take ownership of their part in the accidents. and I would bet the majority of those accidents are dare devil bikers that dont know how to properly handle their bike.

And your logic ignores the fact that every biker should have the reality that when they get on the road, just like any other kind of driver, they could get in an accident. The only difference being a bike against a car... the bike is going to lose. THAT is the reality of it. Your logic omits that reality. Someone driving a car should not be held to some higher consequence just because they get in an accident with a vehicle that is more difficult to see and the result is more catestrphic. I mean given this logic if a semi crushes a Civic they should be fined more heavily than if a Lexus crashed with a Civic.

Let me break it down in simple bullets for you;


I am not saying all MC riders are obeying traffic laws or not paying attention.
I am not saying all cars cause accidents with motorcycles.
I am not saying "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they are IN and accident"
I am saying, "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they CAUSE the accident."


You can think whatever you want, obviously you do not understand what I am saying... maybe capitalization and bolding might help you see the difference of what you are thinking and what I am saying .

I totally agree with stricter penalties for a driver that hits a cycle, if it is the driver's fault.

That said, how often do you see someone on a motorcycle talking on a cell phone, putting on makeup, arguing with kids in the backseat, zoning out to music etc.?

:phew: At least someone understands... it is apparently others cannot pull their heads out of their asses to understand what I am saying. :rolleyes:

Awareness, my friend. Pay attention. Cars aren't the only things on the road.

Awareness for something that is more difficult to see? Okay... Let's increase fines for pickup trucks when they crash into small cars. Let's increase fines for box trucks that crash into pickup trucks. Let's increase fines for semis that crash... well..... into anything smaller than them.

You seem to ignore the fact that bikers know (or should know) that riding vehicle this small size will have more severe conseuquences in an accident with a larger vehicle, and this being the facts, a person driving car should not have to pay more severe for that decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyOps
Outside of proving that the driver of the car purposely hit the biker simply because he was riding a bike, explain the rationale for this?


Using that line of thinking, the penalty for ALL violations should be increased. It's an ignorant proposal.

She means well.

Let me break it down in simple bullets for you;


I am not saying all MC riders are obeying traffic laws or not paying attention.
I am not saying all cars cause accidents with motorcycles.
I am not saying "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they are IN and accident"
I am saying, "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they CAUSE the accident."


You can think whatever you want, obviously you do not understand what I am saying... maybe capitalization and bolding might help you see the difference of what you are thinking and what I am saying .


:phew: At least someone understands... it is apparently others cannot pull their heads out of their asses to understand what I am saying. :rolleyes:

It's not like there is no precedent. There are stiffer laws for drugs in a school zone for example. I would think, though, that civil suits would cover the stiffer penalty concept. Plus that way the family would benifit rather than the state paying for incarceration.

little harsh calling her ignorant, BS is far from that..

:yay:

but, I do think that those on bikes also have to understand that they are not always the easiest thing to see on the road.

I know I did, and that was part of the training you went through - make yourself visible to others, give yourself an out, do not ride in an auto's blind spot... I was conscious of these items, but others are probably not.

dont even get me started on the rice rockets on the highway that pass you at 100+ miles per hour.

Could not agree with you more, I can those people "Statistics" - Hoover calls them "Donors" - when they bite the dust I have no remorse as they were rolling the dice... I feel bad for the innocent victims they injure or kill in a crash. :yay:

If, there were to be greater fines, punishment for being involved with a motorcycle in an accident, I would expect that there be greater fines and penalties for the riders of those motorcycles when they get caught riding like an ass, or speeding.

:yay: Could not agree with you more. Charles County started a program 2 or 3 years ago basically cracking down on MC riders driving fast and aggressive - like asses. The police are handing them the maximum fines on the books with no breaks when they are stopped. The judges are not showing leeway if they decide to go to court. This is the way it should be.

I even think they should throw the book at them and DOUBLE the fines/penalties. This would send a message...

They need to take ownership of their part in the accidents. and I would bet the majority of those accidents are dare devil bikers that dont know how to properly handle their bike.

This is a general problem in America, it's not my fault - always someone else's. No one wants to take responsibility... I believe my points above would curb some of this behavior.

I am saying, "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they CAUSE the accident."
[/LIST]

You can think whatever you want, obviously you do not understand what I am saying...

I understand what you're saying, and if we did that, then we'd have to make any larger vehicle that causes an accident should suffer a higher consequence, whether it be a car hitting a bike, or a semi hitting a hummer. I have to agree with Cyclops on this. If you drive a bike, you are aware of the potential dangers, just as when driving a compact car, you're aware of the dangers.

What we need is for the cops to enforce the existing laws. I see laws broken every day by drivers, and many times I see cops turn a blind eye to those broken laws because they don't want to be bothered. I guess they think if an accident wasn't the result of the broken law, "no harm, no foul".

Awareness for something that is more difficult to see? Okay... Let's increase fines for pickup trucks when they crash into small cars. Let's increase fines for box trucks that crash into pickup trucks. Let's increase fines for semis that crash... well..... into anything smaller than them.

You seem to ignore the fact that bikers know (or should know) that riding vehicle this small size will have more severe conseuquences in an accident with a larger vehicle, and this being the facts, a person driving car should not have to pay more severe for that decision.

This argument is getting tiresome, not to mention ridiculous. Since when is a pickup truck difficult to see? Since they are so vulnerable, these pickup drivers, why don't we require them to wear helmets?

Awareness for something that is more difficult to see? Okay... Let's increase fines for pickup trucks when they crash into small cars. Let's increase fines for box trucks that crash into pickup trucks. Let's increase fines for semis that crash... well..... into anything smaller than them.

You seem to ignore the fact that bikers know (or should know) that riding vehicle this small size will have more severe conseuquences in an accident with a larger vehicle, and this being the facts, a person driving car should not have to pay more severe for that decision.

"Awareness" as in "look twice before you pull out, put your effin cell phone down, etc."

I am also of the opinion that if you're talking on a cell phone or texting while driving, you should get a ticket. And if you cause an accident while on a cell phone, your fine should be doubled.

"Awareness" as in "look twice before you pull out, put your effin cell phone down, etc."

I am also of the opinion that if you're talking on a cell phone or texting while driving, you should get a ticket. And if you cause an accident while on a cell phone, your fine should be doubled.


I see people on phones a lot, but they're not always multi tasking. I have people pull out in front of me all the time, and I'd say most of the time the only thing they're doing is driving. I agree that you shouldn't be on the cell phone when you're driving, but that's becoming a tiring argument.

Let me break it down in simple bullets for you;


I am not saying all MC riders are obeying traffic laws or not paying attention.
I am not saying all cars cause accidents with motorcycles.
I am not saying "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they are IN and accident"
I am saying, "car drivers should pay a higher consequences if they CAUSE the accident."


You can think whatever you want, obviously you do not understand what I am saying... maybe capitalization and bolding might help you see the difference of what you are thinking and what I am saying .



:phew: At least someone understands... it is apparently others cannot pull their heads out of their asses to understand what I am saying. :rolleyes:

Because I disagree you think I don’t understand your position? Why in the world would a car driver be fined at all if the biker caused the accident or if both were found at fault? I know we are talking about the car driver being found at fault. So your only course of action is to get ugly and claim I don’t understand.

There is no rationale for imposing heavier fine on cars drivers simply because they are driving a car and they cause more damage to a biker. It wasn’t my choice that the biker chose to drive something that was less safe and harder to see on the road. Just like it’s not the fault of an SUV driver that I chose to drive something (Honda Civic) that would get crushed in an accident with an SUV.

I see people on phones a lot, but they're not always multi tasking. I have people pull out in front of me all the time, and I'd say most of the time the only thing they're doing is driving. I agree that you shouldn't be on the cell phone when you're driving, but that's becoming a tiring argument.

mAlice, if they're driving and on a cell, they are multi-tasking. :shrug:

I understand what you're saying, and if we did that, then we'd have to make any larger vehicle that causes an accident should suffer a higher consequence, whether it be a car hitting a bike, or a semi hitting a hummer. I have to agree with Cyclops on this. If you drive a bike, you are aware of the potential dangers, just as when driving a compact car, you're aware of the dangers.

What we need is for the cops to enforce the existing laws. I see laws broken every day by drivers, and many times I see cops turn a blind eye to those broken laws because they don't want to be bothered. I guess they think if an accident wasn't the result of the broken law, "no harm, no foul".

I understand your side of the argument, I really do, but I do not believe on the larger/smaller concept - I just believe a large percentage of auto's do not look out for bikes... that is the basis on the AMA law concept.

Believe me, I understood the consequences if I went down - I do believe people on crotch rockets acting like a jackass suffers from "I am invincible" or "It won't happen to me" disease...

Either way you are right, current laws on the books today need to be enforced and fines/penalties need to be levied.

This argument is getting tiresome, not to mention ridiculous. Since when is a pickup truck difficult to see? Since they are so vulnerable, these pickup drivers, why don't we require them to wear helmets?

I agree DR - you take over from here... :lol:

mAlice, if they're driving and on a cell, they are multi-tasking. :shrug:

What I meant was, they're not always on the phone, or doing something else that is distracting. Sometimes they're just driving. Not very well, but still just driving.

You make it sound like every time somebody screws up, it's because they're on a cell phone. I had a vision of you wagging your finger at someone while you were posting that.

Because I disagree you think I don’t understand your position? Why in the world would a car driver be fined at all if the biker caused the accident or if both were found at fault? I know we are talking about the car driver being found at fault. So your only course of action is to get ugly and claim I don’t understand.

There is no rationale for imposing heavier fine on cars drivers simply because they are driving a car and they cause more damage to a biker. It wasn’t my choice that the biker chose to drive something that was less safe and harder to see on the road. Just like it’s not the fault of an SUV driver that I chose to drive something (Honda Civic) that would get crushed in an accident with an SUV.

It is not because a car will do more damage to a bike, the laws of physics dictate the car will sustain less damage - we all know that.

My only course of action is frustration :banghead:, not ugliness, because you think I think it is a larger/smaller concept - and it is not...

Go back and re-read my posts... especially the one to mAlice and DR, it is about the auto driver not paying attention and being blatantly at fault.

You can direct the rest of your questions to DR, he would be glad to help you out on this. :lol:

What I meant was, they're not always on the phone, or doing something else that is distracting. Sometimes they're just driving. Not very well, but still just driving.

You make it sound like every time somebody screws up, it's because they're on a cell phone. I had a vision of you wagging your finger at someone while you were posting that.

:lol: I wag it at people on the phone.

People just don't see bikes. I have started to pull out in my vehicle before and caught sight of a bike at the last minute who was hidden behind a telephone pole when I first looked. There just needs to be more awareness of bikes. And that's never going to happen because, unless you ride one, your thought processes are not tuned into looking for a bike. The new stiffer penalty law means well, but I don't think it is going to get people to pay any more attention.

Now, I'm going to start a loud pipes save lives argument. :lol:

Now, I'm going to start a loud pipes save lives argument. :lol:

I could set off car alarms in parking lots if I cracked my throttle with my old bike. :lol:

Damn, I miss that bike especially in the spring and fall. :bawl:

Makes me sad to hear about people losing their lives early too.
fact is, those drivers that speed up to cut off the bike, or pull out because they "think" they have enough room, do it to other cars too. I dont think it has to do with a bike, it has to do with ignorance.
this is why I think that additional penalties for hitting a bike are not a very good idea. do we also give harsher punishment if someone in a tractor trailer has an accident with a small car? where would the break off for punishment be?
F-250 vs Smart car? does the driver of the F-250 face harsher treatment?

Yes there are. All penalties for drivers with CDL's are much stricter. But that's another thread.

:lol: I wag it at people on the phone.

People just don't see bikes. I have started to pull out in my vehicle before and caught sight of a bike at the last minute who was hidden behind a telephone pole when I first looked. There just needs to be more awareness of bikes. And that's never going to happen because, unless you ride one, your thought processes are not tuned into looking for a bike. The new stiffer penalty law means well, but I don't think it is going to get people to pay any more attention.

Now, I'm going to start a loud pipes save lives argument. :lol:

People just don't see bikes, and people who ride bikes know this, yet they continue to ride them. What's wrong with this picture?

If you want to put your happy ass on something that people don't see, I say YOU are putting your life at a higher risk for injury or death, and YOU should be the responsible party.

It is not because a car will do more damage to a bike, the laws of physics dictate the car will sustain less damage - we all know that.

My only course of action is frustration :banghead:, not ugliness, because you think I think it is a larger/smaller concept - and it is not...

Go back and re-read my posts... especially the one to mAlice and DR, it is about the auto driver not paying attention and being blatantly at fault.

You can direct the rest of your questions to DR, he would be glad to help you out on this. :lol:

Car drivers don’t pay attention regardless of who is around them. Has nothing to do with bikers. The pinheads fumbling with their cell or lighting their cigarette or reading some briefing they're about to present threaten everyone around them equally, not just bikers. If you want to fine that type of driver more heavily I'm all for it. But just because they crash with a bike doesn't make them any more liable than if they crashed with another car. They weren't paying attention to anyone. And I am around those drivers everyday.

And I will equally say that almost on a daily basis I encounter bikers that ride too fast, too close, and in a manner that makes it more difficult for me to see them or anticipate what they are going to do. I would be willing to say that over 50% of the bikers I see are doing something that creates havoc for drivers. Should they be fined more heavily because of their erratic driving?

People just don't see bikes, and people who ride bikes know this, yet they continue to ride them. What's wrong with this picture?

If you want to put your happy ass on something that people don't see, I say YOU are putting your life at a higher risk for injury or death, and YOU should be the responsible party.

Kinda like people that smoke even though they know it's hazardous to their health, I guess.

Kinda like people that smoke even though they know it's hazardous to their health, I guess.


You might say that.

Car drivers don’t pay attention regardless of who is around them. Has nothing to do with bikers. The pinheads fumbling with their cell or lighting their cigarette or reading some briefing they're about to present threaten everyone around them equally, not just bikers. If you want to fine that type of driver more heavily I'm all for it. But just because they crash with a bike doesn't make them any more liable than if they crashed with another car. They weren't paying attention to anyone. And I am around those drivers everyday.

And I will equally say that almost on a daily basis I encounter bikers that ride too fast, too close, and in a manner that makes it more difficult for me to see them or anticipate what they are going to do. I would be willing to say that over 50% of the bikers I see are doing something that creates havoc for drivers. Should they be fined more heavily because of their erratic driving?

Definitely.

Car drivers don’t pay attention regardless of who is around them. Has nothing to do with bikers. The pinheads fumbling with their cell or lighting their cigarette or reading some briefing they're about to present threaten everyone around them equally, not just bikers. If you want to fine that type of driver more heavily I'm all for it. But just because they crash with a bike doesn't make them any more liable than if they crashed with another car. They weren't paying attention to anyone. And I am around those drivers everyday.

And I will equally say that almost on a daily basis I encounter bikers that ride too fast, too close, and in a manner that makes it more difficult for me to see them or anticipate what they are going to do. I would be willing to say that over 50% of the bikers I see are doing something that creates havoc for drivers. Should they be fined more heavily because of their erratic driving?

Most of the ones I see are driving safely. I'd say less than 5% are being reckless. Those are almost exclusively sport bikes.

Most of the ones I see are driving safely. I'd say less than 5% are being reckless. Those are almost exclusively sport bikes.

Then you're not seeing what we're seeing.

Then you're not seeing what we're seeing.

I thought they were so hard to see? Maybe speeding and doing wheelies is a good way to be noticed? I may have to start riding differently.:lol:

I thought they were so hard to see? Maybe speeding and doing wheelies is a good way to be noticed? I may have to start riding differently.:lol:
I have personally not had a near miss with a bike. Does that mean I'm more careful? :shrug: That I look twice? :shrug:

I pulled out in front of a Z3 the other day...I wonder if it was because I wasn't paying attention, or because it was gray and didn't have it's lights on, or if it was because I wasn't on the cell phone. :shrug:

You can drive your bike any way you want. I really don't care. I have a car wrapped around me, so what you do on your bike is really of no concern to me. What concerns me is the guy bigger than me.

Most of the ones I see are driving safely. I'd say less than 5% are being reckless. Those are almost exclusively sport bikes.

I have to agree. I see idiots on 210 and have seen them on 4 doing wheelies but that is VERY rare. Most of the time I find bikers drive safely.

Most of the ones I see are driving safely. I'd say less than 5% are being reckless. Those are almost exclusively sport bikes.

I'd say it's far less than that. On an average good weather day, I bet I pass 100 bikes on the road. I see an idiot rider about once a week.

I really have a problem with valuing a bikers life higher just because he chooses to ride. All vehicular manslaughter or negligence should be treated equally. Should we also increase fines on people who cause a crash with an old car that doesn't have modern safety features? Should we fine the guy in a work truck that collides with an economy car because the little car lost the battle? Why draw the line at bikers?

I also don't believe in helmet laws. They get in the way of natural selection, stop a great way of culling the herd, and weaken the human race as a whole.

Most of the ones I see are driving safely. I'd say less than 5% are being reckless. Those are almost exclusively sport bikes.

Well, you must not drive on route 4, which is becoming known as biker death alley particularly in the area between 258/259 and 301.

I'd say it's far less than that. On an average good weather day, I bet I pass 100 bikes on the road. I see an idiot rider about once a week.

I really have a problem with valuing a bikers life higher just because he chooses to ride. All vehicular manslaughter or negligence should be treated equally. Should we also increase fines on people who cause a crash with an old car that doesn't have modern safety features? Should we fine the guy in a work truck that collides with an economy car because the little car lost the battle? Why draw the line at bikers?

I also don't believe in helmet laws. They get in the way of natural selection, stop a great way of culling the herd, and weaken the human race as a whole.

Less than less than 5%?:killingme

The funny thing is, to me anyway, some of these people who are screaming for stiff penalties for cars at fault are the same ones saying helmet laws should be taken off the books.

Well, you must not drive on route 4, which is becoming known as biker death alley particularly in the area between 258/259 and 301.

Nope, mainly 235 and around Solomons and St Marys.

Less than less than 5%?:killingme



:rolleyes: Can you tell that I'm not good at math? :lol:

Well, you must not drive on route 4, which is becoming known as biker death alley particularly in the area between 258/259 and 301.


You probably only notice the ones who act stupid. Why would you notice the ones who drive safely unless they affect you?

You probably only notice the ones who act stupid. Why would you notice the ones who drive safely unless they affect you?


What do you consider 'safe'.

I spend a lot of time on the road between here and Annapolis, Fredericksburg, and for a long time, Virginia Beach. I can't possibly guess what the percentage of safe/unsafe drivers are. I can only say that I've seen many motor cycles weaving in and out of traffic, driving at excessive speeds, and driving erratically. I've come up on crashed motor cycles that passed me only minutes before. I've had motor cycles approach me so fast that they had difficulty not rear ending me while moving forward (no stop light/sign in the scenario).

I discovered a wrecked motor cycle on the side of the road one night and called it in, only to discover the next day that it was a friend of mine. He died. No other vehicles involved.

You can state all you want that bikers are safe drivers, but I've seen many that are not.

little harsh calling her ignorant, BS is far from that.

Is she the member of the legislators that proposed this law?

What do you consider 'safe'.

I spend a lot of time on the road between here and Annapolis, Fredericksburg, and for a long time, Virginia Beach. I can't possibly guess what the percentage of safe/unsafe drivers are. I can only say that I've seen many motor cycles weaving in and out of traffic, driving at excessive speeds, and driving erratically. I've come up on crashed motor cycles that passed me only minutes before. I've had motor cycles approach me so fast that they had difficulty not rear ending me while moving forward (no stop light/sign in the scenario).

I discovered a wrecked motor cycle on the side of the road one night and called it in, only to discover the next day that it was a friend of mine. He died. No other vehicles involved.

You can state all you want that bikers are safe drivers, but I've seen many that are not.

Dang!

Nope, mainly 235 and around Solomons and St Marys.

I think you get more of the crazy bikers on the open roads. Route 4 - especially the stretch north of Dunkirk - is a dream land for these rice burners. I will say that the vast majority of Harley riders are good drivers. And I will also say that I see far more pinheads driving pickup trucks than bikers. I don't know what it is about folks driving pickups but they are out of control.

You probably only notice the ones who act stupid. Why would you notice the ones who drive safely unless they affect you?

Because I pay attention to all of them. :smack:

My driving is different around them because they could hit a pothole or bump that would affect their ability to maintain control moreso than a 4-wheeled vehicle. And I'm always trying to prepare for the fact that they think because they are smaller they can fit in small gaps and will take it without warning; has happened to me countless times.

There is no rationale for imposing heavier fine on cars drivers simply because they are driving a car and they cause more damage to a biker.

We could call it a Carbon Footprint Liability
Any at fault vehicle larger than the other vehicle would automatically receive a carbon credit fine based ont the weight difference between the vehicles.




Al Gore will be so happy :diva:

We could call it a Carbon Footprint Liability
Any at fault vehicle larger than the other vehicle would automatically receive a carbon credit fine based ont the weight difference between the vehicles.




Al Gore will be so happy :diva:

Where the heck has he been? Did someone shove him in a closet. I bet he ends up on BO's admin.

I think you get more of the crazy bikers on the open roads. Route 4 - especially the stretch north of Dunkirk - is a dream land for these rice burners. I will say that the vast majority of Harley riders are good drivers. And I will also say that I see far more pinheads driving pickup trucks than bikers. I don't know what it is about folks driving pickups but they are out of control.

Two guys here at work are a couple of the most aggressive drivers I've seen on the road. Mostly tailgating and speeding. Both drive pickups. Both head North on 235 at 3- 3:30. I don't even try to keep up.

I think you get more of the crazy bikers on the open roads. Route 4 - especially the stretch north of Dunkirk - is a dream land for these rice burners. I will say that the vast majority of Harley riders are good drivers. And I will also say that I see far more pinheads driving pickup trucks than bikers. I don't know what it is about folks driving pickups but they are out of control.


I agree with both statements.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow! I never realized the sheer volume of replies that would happen in a single day. Sheesh...

I've learned a lot from reading through these. Be very scared of riding a motorcycle around here.

A lot has been discussed about imposing higher fines if you are the cause of an incident involving a motorcycle. Read the link that was submitted early on. That is now a law. And if you read the link, you'll see that ABATE wanted this pushed to RAISE AWARENESS for motorcycles on our roads. That was basically the entire point of my posting this. If any of you were driving home after work yesterday and thought of my crazy post, well...good.

I was just placing a bet in my original thread. In most cases in a "T-bone" accident such as this, the driver pulling out into the roadway of the oncoming driver/rider is at fault. The person who posted the "Boulevard Rule" was right on here (I was on a jury where this very rule came into play). So after having thought of all that, do I feel any differently to the lady in the car? No.

A lot of you say that a motorcycle is hard to see and so that's the risk the rider takes, and if I pull out in front of him, oh well. I agree that the rider is definately taking an added risk, and adjusting and planning for it. But...that's not an excuse for the car driver! Please, take an extra fraction of a second to check for something smaller than a car, a glint of sun off of some chrome, etc. before pulling out. That's all I was getting at.

This morning I was making a left off of a roadway. A guy on a Harley was coming opposite my direction. I waited for him to pass. I wondered what he was thinking as he got close to me. Sure we had eye contact, but...as someone else said, sometimes that doesn't work. What were his options at that point? He had basically none. We all just need to be extra careful, extra observant and extra deliberant in our actions in a car.

Good day,

In Today's Enterprise: Two killed in motorcycle crash (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/10132008/entetop114228_32344.shtml)



I say Lateesha Shonte Cooper needs to be put away for the rest of her life, or worse. Can't people just take that one extra second to look a bit more carefully (perhaps put down the cell phone?) to make sure the road is clear before you decide to pull out? Nothing like pulling out in front of a pretty much defenseless motorcyle.

Now I know there are usually two sides to every story, but...this is an unfortunate common occurance. "I just didn't see him".

I just don't get it....now two people are dead, because of Lateesha Shonte Cooper. Let this be a call to specifically look for motorcyles when pulling out into the street.

Oh, and I don't ride one (yet), but my Mom and Dad did, and I always worried about them; not because of my Dad's ability but for this very reason here.

Seems to me you take one side of the story. You stirred the pot not me. You make assumptions in your post that may or may not be true. You assume Ms. Cooper wasn't vigilant... don't judge lest ye be judged.

You assume the bike owner was an innocent and blamed the cage driver 100%... grow up. Read through your thread and you'll see that there are plenty of bad bike riders and cage drivers out there. This county is full of bad drivers and bikers... plenty of examples have been made. Be responsible for your own actions and don't blame others for your misgivings.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.7) 320x240; VZW; Motorola-Q9c; Windows Mobile 6.0 Standard)

There is no rationale for imposing heavier fine on cars drivers simply because they are driving a car and they cause more damage to a biker.

We could call it a Carbon Footprint Liability
Any at fault vehicle larger than the other vehicle would automatically receive a carbon credit fine based ont the weight difference between the vehicles.




Al Gore will be so happy :diva:

But a commuter bus full of people is far more efficient than a bike. Does the bike face a harsher penalty if it hits a bus?

If the lady in the accident we are discussing was carrying four passengers would she be less liable than if she was alone?

New law/penalty for failing to yield right of way.

NOTICE: NEW PENALTY LAW AFFECTING RIGHT OF WAY CRASHES RESULTING IN SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OR DEATH

EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2008, if any road user violates any provision of the right-of-way section of the Rules of the Road (Subtitle 4) in a crash that results in serious bodily injury or death, the violator is also subject to this new penalty. This section includes, but is not limited to crashes involving motorcycles, bicycles and pedestrians.

CITATION:
Article – Transportation
§27–114.
(A) IF A PERSON VIOLATES ANY PROVISION OF TITLE 21, SUBTITLE 4 OF THIS ARTICLE AND THE VIOLATION CONTRIBUTES TO AN ACCIDENT THAT RESULTS IN THE DEATH OR, AS DEFINED IN § 27–113 OF THIS SUBTITLE, SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OF ANOTHER, THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR AND ON CONVICTION:
(1) THE PERSON IS SUBJECT TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN
$1,000; AND
(2) THE ADMINISTRATION MAY SUSPEND THE PERSON’S LICENSE FOR NOT MORE THAN 180 DAYS.

EXAMPLE OF UPDATED FINES AND PENALTIES:

21-401 Failure of vehicle to yield intersection right-of-way to
another vehicle

Fine Points
$110.00 01
If violation contributes to an accident $150.00 03
If violation contributes to an accident that results in Death
(Code 5) or Serious Injury (Code 4) $750.00 03

Changes are being made to the manual Uniform Traffic Citation forms (R-49) and the District Court Fine Schedule (DC/CR-90) to accommodate the implementation of this new penalty. Law enforcement agencies will be notified of these changes in September, with the new system taking effect October 1, 2008. This will include the use of a 5-point scale for injury severity.

This new penalty is NOT in the current District Court Fine Schedule and officers may not be aware of this law. This new penalty should be applied to at least all fatal cases using current manual citation forms until the new forms and guidance become available in late September.

New law/penalty for failing to yield right of way.

NOTICE: NEW PENALTY LAW AFFECTING RIGHT OF WAY CRASHES RESULTING IN SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OR DEATH

EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2008, if any road user violates any provision of the right-of-way section of the Rules of the Road (Subtitle 4) in a crash that results in serious bodily injury or death, the violator is also subject to this new penalty. This section includes, but is not limited to crashes involving motorcycles, bicycles and pedestrians.

CITATION:
Article – Transportation
§27–114.
(A) IF A PERSON VIOLATES ANY PROVISION OF TITLE 21, SUBTITLE 4 OF THIS ARTICLE AND THE VIOLATION CONTRIBUTES TO AN ACCIDENT THAT RESULTS IN THE DEATH OR, AS DEFINED IN § 27–113 OF THIS SUBTITLE, SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OF ANOTHER, THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR AND ON CONVICTION:
(1) THE PERSON IS SUBJECT TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN
$1,000; AND
(2) THE ADMINISTRATION MAY SUSPEND THE PERSON’S LICENSE FOR NOT MORE THAN 180 DAYS.

EXAMPLE OF UPDATED FINES AND PENALTIES:

21-401 Failure of vehicle to yield intersection right-of-way to
another vehicle

Fine Points
$110.00 01
If violation contributes to an accident $150.00 03
If violation contributes to an accident that results in Death
(Code 5) or Serious Injury (Code 4) $750.00 03

Changes are being made to the manual Uniform Traffic Citation forms (R-49) and the District Court Fine Schedule (DC/CR-90) to accommodate the implementation of this new penalty. Law enforcement agencies will be notified of these changes in September, with the new system taking effect October 1, 2008. This will include the use of a 5-point scale for injury severity.

This new penalty is NOT in the current District Court Fine Schedule and officers may not be aware of this law. This new penalty should be applied to at least all fatal cases using current manual citation forms until the new forms and guidance become available in late September.Dang, $1000. That'll make them pay! :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

Dang, $1000. That'll make them pay! :rolleyes: :sarcasm:
seriously.
oh well, at least we have a good idea of the value of someones life...

it does say that it includes, but not limited to, so, it applies for car to car accidents.

at least, in a thread like this, as mentioned above, we all take a little more care, (I do, and imagine others do too) to make sure that the motorcycle rider is seen, has the room get by you, and is given the same respect that you would a larger vehicle.


oh, and about those Harley riders being safe?
I was thinking the same thing, never saw one riding like an ass..
as luck would have it, there was one on the beltway this afternoon doing the high speed traffic weave,, what are the odds..
most the time I see them riding in larger groups, going the limit or just under.

at any rate, regardless of your position on things like, fines, right of way etc... make it a point to look a little closer to make sure you are not fixing to kill a biker. With the price of fuel, and the not so sweet economy, you might be seeing more of them on the road.

I would love to go a month even without seeing a thread on another bike accident.

I would love to go a month even without seeing a thread on another bike accident.That would be nice.