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Well, looks like everyone has survived the hurricane. Some power outages still exist and some folk are dealing with damage from the storm, but overall I think we, as a whole, faired okay. It was one hell of a blow; I hadn’t seen winds like that since I left Iceland. Maybe that is why there aren’t any (real) trees in Iceland, just some shrubbery?

There was only one thing about the whole ordeal that irked me somewhat. That being, where were the local radio stations in St. Mary’s County? It appears that neither WSMD 98.3 nor WMDM 97.7 were able to maintain their broadcasts. Why don’t they have emergency power? Aren’t these the people that are supposed to provide emergency warning information and keep us updated on closures, flooding, and such? I ended up listening to a Fredericksburg, Virginia station to get anything of a local nature. They even had interviews with our county officials, but very little information about the area as to damage, road closures, etc.

I always thought that one of the functions that radio stations performed in exchange for being granted the use of the airwaves was that of providing emergency notification to the community they support. I guess that isn’t a priority for the company (or companies) that own these two stations or they would have had functional generators.

As soon as the power died I broke out the battery-powered radio. Tuned in 98.3, nothing. Tuned in 97.7, nothing. Switched to AM and checked the 97.7 sister station, WPTX, nothing. How come? Where were the emergency generators that could have kept them on the air? Anyone think they will make arrangements before the next major power disruption? Does it matter? Or, was everyone just thankful that they didn’t have to listen to T-bone and Heather on 98.3?

Next, the Middle East. You guys know I love this topic and it is heating up again. Israel wants to remove the chosen leader of the Palestinians, Yassar Arafat. Talk about stirring up a hornet’s nest. Doing any such thing will have the Palestinians in an uproar and, in my mind, it will escalate the hostilities between the two. While I might have serious doubts as to whether or not Arafat is the best person to lead his people, he is the one that they chose. That is something that we typically honor, you know, self-determination. The right of a people to chose their leaders and destiny. If Israel expels him it could be the match that lights the fuse to that powder keg region. Who knows what it will lead to, but I am sure it will mean another round of major suffering by many in that area and will more than likely spur greater resentment and actions not only towards Israel but against our nation, our interests, and our people.

Israel claims that they are fighting terrorists just as we are. I, however, see a significant difference. That being, those Palestinians that strap explosives onto their bodies and detonate themselves in proximity to Israelis are, from my point of view, doing the only thing they have the ability to do as they fight against the Israeli military machine and continued degradation inflicted upon them. The Palestinians have no infrastructure to speak of and certainly no military force to compete in this conflict or to protect their populace. In my mind, the Palestinian choices are few, they can continue to use the homicide bomber, wait for external assistance, or just give up and let Israel have the entire region (as it seems they are bent to do). Please do not take this paragraph to mean that I condone what these bombers are doing. It is meant to show my understanding of what it is they are facing and what they have as a means of fighting the occupation and colonization of their country.

Personally, I would like to see significant external intervention by the UN as a whole, in particular by the U.S.A., and how we deal with Israel. For many years we have ignored many of the acts by Israel that have had direct negative impact upon our nation. We, at one time, needed this ally in that region. Today, however, I am unsure of the benefit, if any, that they provide us. We have become friendly with several Arab nations in that region and have established a working rapport with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and others. The significance of the Israeli connection, with respect to what they have done and are doing, needs to be re-examined.

It is my opinion that over the past several years Israel has done more harm to us then good and they, like any other nation, should be made to comply with the UN Resolutions enacted against them and the laws of the civilized world. Specifically, those that deal with what land is or isn’t legally Israel’s.

It is time that Israel pulls back to their legal boundaries, not those defined by religion or claimed as historical, not those determined after hostilities, but those that established them as an independent nation. It is time that they comply with the UN Resolutions enacted against them or failing that, the UN should expel them from the world community, just as they are trying to do to Arafat.

Next, 9/11 and the Saudi connection. Why do you suppose that the majority of hijacking murders came from Saudi Arabia? Many think it was due to their ingrained hatred for Americans. That could be, I don’t think so, but it could be. I spent time in Saudi Arabia during the middle 80s, from what I remember they were pretty decent people that I dealt with. We have worked with their government for years and have had a pretty good relationship. I don’t see anything about 9/11 as being sanctioned by the Saudi kingdom.

I think it was due to how readily and easily that they could acquire the necessary paperwork to get into this country. To me the Saudi involvement was nothing more then a tactical advantage gained by Al-Qaeda because of the ease in obtaining a visa for Saudi nationals. This was our fault, not that of the Saudi government.

Before 9/11, nearly every Saudi national requesting a visa into the United States was granted. We allowed a “Visa Express” program to be ran in that country. Travel agencies and middlemen assisted applicants in filling out the application and then the documents would be delivered for processing by these same assistants. Less then 10% of those applying were subjected to an interview prior to being granted the visa. Is it any wonder why so many were from Saudi?

At least now the Justice Department has started requiring the registering, fingerprinting, and photographing of all Saudi males between 16 and 45 seeking U.S. visas. Seems we are doing it with other allies too, such as Pakistan and Yemen. It’s nice to see that one of our biggest failures is being cleaned up. The “Visa Express” allowed by the previous administration is what I would say was one of the biggest causal factors of that tragedy. It gave Al Qaeda an in and they exploited it.

First, I like to listen to Heather and T-Bone, but I too was surprised that none of the local stations had access to emergency power. Now... to the fun stuff.:biggrin:

I'm 100% for Israel putting several bullets into the body of Mr.. Arafat. Will this put the Palestinians into an uproar? Well... I say maybe, maybe not. Yes, Arafat was elected, but he wasn't really elected. You can't have a fair election when the opponents to the incumbant and the voters are "encouraged" to not challenge the status quo. Remember that Saddam Hussein won his last election in a landslide, and those who voted against him likely ended up in mass graves. Would there be Palestinian outrage at the death of Arafat, not as much as I think you believe there would be.

What I look at is what does Israel have to lose? After Arafat forced out his supposed number two he lost a lot of credibility with the international community. It's obvious that he's far more interested in maintaining his personal power than he is in the peace process. The Israelis have been hit by how many homicide bombers over the past year? Have lost how many people? What are the Palestinians going to do to retaliate against the Israelis? Send homicide bombers? If I were the Israelis I would plug and stuff Arafat and brace for whatever happens. There will be lots of shouts of outrage from Arafat's friends, and some mild retaliations by Arafat's enemies in order to show that they are tough on the Jews, and deserve to take Arafat's place, but I doubt much else will happen. Jews... take the shot!

I wonder who has heaped more degradation on the Palestinians? The Jews or the Palestinian leadership? How many millions or billions of dollars meant to help Palestinians have been diverted into the Swiss bank accounts of the Palestinian leadership? All those billions of dollars makes for a hell of a lot of life improvement, especially in that part of the world. Also, why do no Arab nations help the Palestinians out? They have made billions off of oil sales, and their people live the life of Riley, yet they refuse to help the Palestinians. Could it be because they want something to hold against Israel more than they want the Palestinians to live well? I think your blaming Israel for the brunt of Palestinian woes is well off the mark.

I think that the Saudi involvement with terrorism is based on one thing - boredom. Young Saudi males have everything provided to them throughout their lives. They do not have to work, yet they get plenty of money from the government. The government pays for their homes, their cars, and there's plenty of money for servants to do every little task that the Saudi male doesn't want to do. This results in a lot of young males who are wide open to radicalism because their lives offer no challenges on their own. It's no different from what we see with the kids of wealthy parents in this country... it's just taken to a different and higher level.

First, I like to listen to Heather and T-Bone, but I too was surprised that none of the local stations had access to emergency power. Now... to the fun stuff.

:rolleyes: Listening to Heather and T-Bone is annoying. All they do bicker.

Anyway, I read that Ehrlich wanted to give the radio stations money to purchase generators. UFB, I'm pretty sure all the stations are owned by one person who has money out the ying yang.

Originally posted by Bruzilla
First, I like to listen to Heather and T-Bone, but I too was surprised that none of the local stations had access to emergency power.
I like the format of the station, but at times these two are a little much for me.

I'm 100% for Israel putting several bullets into the body of Mr.. Arafat. Will this put the Palestinians into an uproar? Well... I say maybe, maybe not. Yes, Arafat was elected, but he wasn't really elected. You can't have a fair election when the opponents to the incumbant and the voters are "encouraged" to not challenge the status quo. Remember that Saddam Hussein won his last election in a landslide, and those who voted against him likely ended up in mass graves. Would there be Palestinian outrage at the death of Arafat, not as much as I think you believe there would be.
Bullets? Yes, I could go for that, but Israel will use a 500lb bomb with collateral damage. That’s their style. They are doing the killings with military might, might that we helped them achieve.

What I look at is what does Israel have to lose? After Arafat forced out his supposed number two he lost a lot of credibility with the international community. It's obvious that he's far more interested in maintaining his personal power than he is in the peace process. The Israelis have been hit by how many homicide bombers over the past year? Have lost how many people? What are the Palestinians going to do to retaliate against the Israelis? Send homicide bombers? If I were the Israelis I would plug and stuff Arafat and brace for whatever happens. There will be lots of shouts of outrage from Arafat's friends, and some mild retaliations by Arafat's enemies in order to show that they are tough on the Jews, and deserve to take Arafat's place, but I doubt much else will happen. Jews... take the shot!
No argument about Arafat wanting to hold on to power. Israel doesn’t even want to kill him though. They want him exiled, for what purpose other than to humiliate? Let’s look at the deaths, from 29 September 2000 to 27 September 2003 Israel has had 799 deaths related to the conflict, Palestine has had 2,495. A 3 to 1 kill ratio, who is doing what to whom? I look at it as what do the Palestinians have to lose by not using the deplorable tactic. If they do nothing, which it seems a lot of folk want, they lose everything anyway.

I wonder who has heaped more degradation on the Palestinians? The Jews or the Palestinian leadership? How many millions or billions of dollars meant to help Palestinians have been diverted into the Swiss bank accounts of the Palestinian leadership? All those billions of dollars makes for a hell of a lot of life improvement, especially in that part of the world. Also, why do no Arab nations help the Palestinians out? They have made billions off of oil sales, and their people live the life of Riley, yet they refuse to help the Palestinians. Could it be because they want something to hold against Israel more than they want the Palestinians to live well?
Give me a total on the aid you’re talking about. I sure don’t recall seeing any palaces or possessions that would indicate that there is grand order embezzlement taking place. Now, how much have we, the USA alone, given to aid Israel? There is no comparison. And the majority of what we have given is in hardware that allows them to wage their continued mission of illegally acquiring all of the land as theirs. You say that no Arab nations have helped Palestine. Talk about off the mark. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan jumped in right at the beginning. They continue to assist in various ways, wasn’t a shipment of weapons for Arafat recently intercepted and confiscated? Don’t Hamas and Hezbollah have members from most, if not all, the Arab nations? There has been formal support from the Arab nations in regard to the plight of the Palestinians. There just hasn’t been a concerted effort of military action by those nations in their defense for some time. If Israel is so right, as you imply, then why are there so many UN Resolutions condemning them for their acts against Palestine?

I think your blaming Israel for the brunt of Palestinian woes is well off the mark.
Really? I take it you think that they should hold themselves responsible for Israel taking the land outside of the established boundaries, for the denial of rights to Arabs that remain within the borders of Israel, for the continued occupation and colonization that is going on, and for the lopsided death toll. I guess you feel that these people just don’t deserve to live or to be entitled to a country that was declared theirs when Israel was established.
I think that the Saudi involvement with terrorism is based on one thing - boredom. Young Saudi males have everything provided to them throughout their lives. They do not have to work, yet they get plenty of money from the government. The government pays for their homes, their cars, and there's plenty of money for servants to do every little task that the Saudi male doesn't want to do. This results in a lot of young males who are wide open to radicalism because their lives offer no challenges on their own. It's no different from what we see with the kids of wealthy parents in this country... it's just taken to a different and higher level.
So, it’s boredom that will make a young man climb onto an aircraft and fly it into a building. Interesting concept, but I think it is a little deeper than that.

They got into a personal squabble this morning. TFF.

I heard part of it. This station is connected to our PA system.

It was strange how today's topic was the generator thing, but after seeing the front page of the local paper, I can see why.

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Bullets? Yes, I could go for that, but Israel will use a 500lb bomb with collateral damage. That’s their style. They are doing the killings with military might, might that we helped them achieve.
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I doubt they would use a 500lb aerial bomb. If they ever did make the decision to kill Arafat I think they would require real proof that he's dead. I would guess a Mossad assault team that would enter the compound, fight their way to Arafat, and kill him. I think the only other people who would get hurt would be any folks who try to defend him.

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No argument about Arafat wanting to hold on to power. Israel doesn’t even want to kill him though. They want him exiled, for what purpose other than to humiliate? Let’s look at the deaths, from 29 September 2000 to 27 September 2003 Israel has had 799 deaths related to the conflict, Palestine has had 2,495. A 3 to 1 kill ratio, who is doing what to whom? I look at it as what do the Palestinians have to lose by not using the deplorable tactic. If they do nothing, which it seems a lot of folk want, they lose everything anyway.
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I think that sending Arafat in exile is pointless. They've done that before and he just keeps coming back. It's like capital punishment for criminals... if you kill them you don't ever have to worry about them coming back. And I have no problem with disproportinate body counts. If you want to take the bloody road to resolve a dispute, and you are challenging a superior military force, you're going to end up losing a lot more people than the other guy is. That's like me whining about walking up to a bunch of bikers, picking a fight, and getting my ass beat.

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Give me a total on the aid you’re talking about. I sure don’t recall seeing any palaces or possessions that would indicate that there is grand order embezzlement taking place. Now, how much have we, the USA alone, given to aid Israel? There is no comparison. And the majority of what we have given is in hardware that allows them to wage their continued mission of illegally acquiring all of the land as theirs. You say that no Arab nations have helped Palestine. Talk about off the mark. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan jumped in right at the beginning. They continue to assist in various ways, wasn’t a shipment of weapons for Arafat recently intercepted and confiscated? Don’t Hamas and Hezbollah have members from most, if not all, the Arab nations? There has been formal support from the Arab nations in regard to the plight of the Palestinians. There just hasn’t been a concerted effort of military action by those nations in their defense for some time. If Israel is so right, as you imply, then why are there so many UN Resolutions condemning them for their acts against Palestine?
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Arafat's declared net worth is about $300,000,000.00. Remember, that's just what he's declared. Estimates of his undeclared stash go up to $13,000,000,000.00. That's a lot of bucks for the leader of a country where the average yearly income is about $300 or so. And I guess you haven't seen the digs where Arafat's wife lives in Paris... even though she has no job.

You think sending shiploads of weapons to a strife-ridden war zone is helping them out??? Are you nuts? That's like Colt being considered as heroes for exporting loads of AR-15s to South Central LA! The fact is that Palestinians are barred from leaving their country to go to any other Arab country. Saudis can go to Yemen... Yemenese can go to Bahrain... heck, Iraqis can immigrate to Kuwait. But if your passport says "Palestinian" you ain't going anywhere in the Arab world. In fact, the only place they can go in that part of the world is Israel. The Arab League made a decision to keep the Palestinians bottled up in order to create hate and discontent that would maintain pressure on Israel.

The Arab world could spend billions of dollars making life better for Palestinians and open their borders to immigration. The Palestinians don't need guns and terrorists... they need houses, and healthcare, and jobs, and food, and transportation, and all those other things we take for granted over here. But if the Arabs did that, they wouldn't have a means to pressure Israel.

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Really? I take it you think that they should hold themselves responsible for Israel taking the land outside of the established boundaries, for the denial of rights to Arabs that remain within the borders of Israel, for the continued occupation and colonization that is going on, and for the lopsided death toll. I guess you feel that these people just don’t deserve to live or to be entitled to a country that was declared theirs when Israel was established.
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Once again... if you don't want your butt kicked, don't go picking the fight. Everytime that the palestinians start to gain ground in the international community, some idiot decides to go blowing up Israeli targets and the fight begins a new. Palestinians in Israel lose rights and freedoms, there comes more justification for occuparion and colonization, and the death toll rises... and for what? The Israelis just show videos of dead kids and the support for the Palestinians wanes.

Like I've said before... the smart thing for the Palestinians to do would be to lay down their arms and make like pacifists. That would focus all of the World's attention on everything that Israel does and place loads of pressure on Israel. That will gain them a lot more than blowing up their kids.

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So, it’s boredom that will make a young man climb onto an aircraft and fly it into a building. Interesting concept, but I think it is a little deeper than that.
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It may go a little deeper, but I doubt very much. It's the same boredom that leads our wealthy kids to set fire to bums, blow their heads off with Daddy's shotgun, drive themselves into trees with Mommy's Mercedes, rob banks and randomly shoot customers, and on and on. You really need to spend some time in Saudi Arabia to understand what I'm talking about. I saw two well dressed Saudi males, who were in their 20's at least, order food in a restaurant and just had a blast throwing the food all over the place and making as big a mess as possible. They didn't even eat any of it... just threw it on the walls, floors, etc. When I asked the Phillipino manager of the place why they would do that he said "they are bored." Being in a terrorist group is one of the few sources of genuine excitement these idiots get.

While Visa Express greatly enable Saudi terrorists a free pass to the U.S., the greatest "causal factor" of 9/11 was our reluctance to topple the Hussein regime in the first place back in 1991. The "international community" couldn't bear to treat Desert Storm as a real war in the end and actually commit to finishing the job. So the U.S. once again deferred to the world community and negotiated surrender. For that, we were forced to impose sanctions on the Iraqi people, and more importantly, were faced with occupying Saudi territory indefinitely. This is what led Osama bin Laden to revile the U.S., cut his ties with Saudi Arabia, which pleaded for American protection from Saddam Hussein, and lead the jihad that resulted in thousands of dead Americans. This was the price we paid for pandering to the "international community."

Trevor

Originally posted by trevor
This is what led Osama bin Laden to revile the U.S., cut his ties with Saudi Arabia, which pleaded for American protection from Saddam Hussein, and lead the jihad that resulted in thousands of dead Americans. This was the price we paid for pandering to the "international community."

Trevor
I thought Osama got his turban twisted tight when we backed out on supporting the Mujahadeen fighting the Ruskies in Afghanistan.

I doubt they would use a 500lb aerial bomb. If they ever did make the decision to kill Arafat I think they would require real proof that he's dead. I would guess a Mossad assault team that would enter the compound, fight their way to Arafat, and kill him. I think the only other people who would get hurt would be any folks who try to defend him.
Give me a break, they’ve used bombs against others (recently too) and that is the way they would do it here. They already have him confined. All they would have to do is bring in an F-16 and drop the ordnance. No fuss, no muss. They wouldn’t risk losing a hit team by going in after him.

I think that sending Arafat in exile is pointless. They've done that before and he just keeps coming back. It's like capital punishment for criminals... if you kill them you don't ever have to worry about them coming back. And I have no problem with disproportinate body counts. If you want to take the bloody road to resolve a dispute, and you are challenging a superior military force, you're going to end up losing a lot more people than the other guy is. That's like me whining about walking up to a bunch of bikers, picking a fight, and getting my ass beat.
I think your analogy would be better if you looked at it as it really is. That being, in this case, that the bikers walk into your house, kick your ass, rape your wife, steal your valuables and then kicks you off of your property.

Arafat's declared net worth is about $300,000,000.00. Remember, that's just what he's declared. Estimates of his undeclared stash go up to $13,000,000,000.00. That's a lot of bucks for the leader of a country where the average yearly income is about $300 or so. And I guess you haven't seen the digs where Arafat's wife lives in Paris... even though she has no job.
I noticed you mentioned nothing of the aid being received but talked about assets (declared and undeclared). I know Forbes estimates Arafat’s holdings at $300 million US, but I have seen nothing about the undeclared sums that you mention. But let’s get back to aid, what is the current level going to Palestine?

You think sending shiploads of weapons to a strife-ridden war zone is helping them out??? Are you nuts? That's like Colt being considered as heroes for exporting loads of AR-15s to South Central LA! The fact is that Palestinians are barred from leaving their country to go to any other Arab country. Saudis can go to Yemen... Yemenese can go to Bahrain... heck, Iraqis can immigrate to Kuwait. But if your passport says "Palestinian" you ain't going anywhere in the Arab world. In fact, the only place they can go in that part of the world is Israel. The Arab League made a decision to keep the Palestinians bottled up in order to create hate and discontent that would maintain pressure on Israel.
Sending goods is helping out; not sending them is what is called not helping. The surrounding Arabs have experienced what the US provided Israeli might can do, shut that off and see what happens.

The Arab world could spend billions of dollars making life better for Palestinians and open their borders to immigration. The Palestinians don't need guns and terrorists... they need houses, and healthcare, and jobs, and food, and transportation, and all those other things we take for granted over here. But if the Arabs did that, they wouldn't have a means to pressure Israel.
No, the Palestinians need Israel back within it’s borders first. Get them back where they belong and then the other needs can be more easily obtained.

Once again... if you don't want your butt kicked, don't go picking the fight. Everytime that the palestinians start to gain ground in the international community, some idiot decides to go blowing up Israeli targets and the fight begins a new. Palestinians in Israel lose rights and freedoms, there comes more justification for occuparion and colonization, and the death toll rises... and for what? The Israelis just show videos of dead kids and the support for the Palestinians wanes.

Like I've said before... the smart thing for the Palestinians to do would be to lay down their arms and make like pacifists. That would focus all of the World's attention on everything that Israel does and place loads of pressure on Israel. That will gain them a lot more than blowing up their kids.
Who is picking the fight, the one that comes on to your property and claims it as theirs or the property owner that just wants what is his and left alone? That is a little “bass-ackwards”, isn’t it? If the Palestinians laid down the weapons Israel would just take all the land as theirs like they have been doing since they first became independent. It would just be quicker, but that is what I think would happen.

How about reading your very own signature line and apply that thinking towards the Palestinians? If they give up without a fight then they don’t deserve freedom.

Ken,

It's unlikely anyone but bin Laden knows for sure when his hatred sparked his jihad against the U.S., but he was known for being a radical even before we played a role in Afghanistan. He once was revered in Saudi Arabia -- they had no "leader" when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

The U.S. began funding the Afghan natives and their anti-Soviet revolt, while the Saudis funded the Islamic extremists against the Soviets (remember, Saudi Arabia practices Wahhabism, the most violent strain of Islam). The U.S. and the Saudi jihadis clearly shared a common enemy in the Soviets, but there is no proof that anyone in the CIA, or U.S. in general, ever funded the Saudi effort or bin Laden (plainly, he didn't need our money; he was already well-financed). That is a grave misconception that is still widely believed today.

This whole episode is outlined very nicely in "Losing bin Laden," by Richard Miniter, which I'm now in the process of reviewing for Townhall.com. I would highly recommend it.

At any rate, I think it is pretty clear that bin Laden saw his chance to turn Afganistan into the model Islamic state, and when in 1990 the Saudis came calling on the U.S. after Iraqi tanks began rolling into Kuwait, bin Laden really began to focus his hatred at us. Our biggest problem, as I stated earlier, was not removing Saddam at that time. This placed us on their "holy land" indefinitely to patrol the no-fly zones, an act that convinced bin Laden of the Saudis' ulitmate insult to Islam. Deferring to the gutless "international community," which was too timid to act decisively, was the main cause of the current terrorism we face now.

Trevor

Trevor,

I’ll agree that the source of bin Laden’s hatred toward the USA is only truly known by him. I would suspect that it is related to his fanatical religious views and his desire to remove non-Muslims from specific areas as he outlined in his fatwa of 1998. I also suspect it has something to do with our relationship with Israel and what they are doing in the region. I don’t know how “revered” he was in Saudi, but I do know that his family is viewed favorably by the Saudi royalty. He, however, was expelled from Saudi because of his opposition to the Al Saud family and his radical religious contacts, in fact they revoked his citizenship.

While you say there is no proof that he received any of our support for the effort against the Soviets in Afghanistan it is known that we did provided funds, arms, and training to that resistance effort. Besides, I have never claimed that bin Laden was a direct recipient of any of that aid, so there is no misconception on my part.

While I agree it wasn’t the smartest thing to do back in 1990, I also understand that we had no authority to remove Saddam. We were only there to re-establish the integrity of the sovereign Kuwaiti borders by repelling his forces. We should have pressed the UN to continue with the effort, but that is all history now. BTW we have had significant and continuous presence in Saudi well before the first Gulf War. Maybe bin Laden didn’t notice but we were there, including yours truly (12 one-month deployments between 1983-1986). The units I went with had been operating there since the late 70s and some other units had been there for a lot longer.

One thing I noticed that you have glossed over is how Israel is occupying and colonizing the Palestinian territory in violation of international laws and UN resolution. I see this as a key element to the terrorism originating from that region. It is what, in my mind, keeps that entire region one the razor’s edge. If Israel would abide by the boundaries that were established upon its creation, I think that progress could begin to remove the tension and hostilities that has become the norm in that area.

Ken,

Wasn't trying to put you on the defensive about US funding in Afghanistan. I was just mentioning that as background for bin Laden's ascent. Reagan did start pumping money toward the Afghan resistance in the mid-80s, roughly $3 billion.

Per your Israel comment, they may be occupying territory they shouldn't, and at times they use a heavy hand, but it is also true that if the Palestinians truly wanted peace, they would have abided by original accords that would have granted them nearly everything they asked for initially. They rather chose terror, which is well-documented.

I'm no expert in Israeli-Palestinian relations, and how can one be when those two countries apparently don't even know what's going on between them? But one thing I think is more interesting than any speculation on who's right or wrong (we all have our own opinions anyway) is the lack of outcry by the international community and the UN when it comes to Palestinian terrorism. Terrorists are now referred to as "militants" by our major dailies. There certainly is a bias against Israel.

What is more, the world says nothing when the Arab world puts Palestinians in internment camps (Lebanon in 1948, merely to refuse to acknowledge the existence of Israel), or when a country like Kuwait expels 300,000 Palestinians following the Gulf War, simply because Yasser Arafat sided with Saddam Hussein.

The fact here, is that much, if not most, of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. It wants them gone. Palestinian plight is not recognized the world over, which is unfortunate, because they are not merely suffering at the hands of Israel. As Mona Charen has commented, the Palestinians are only useful to the Arab world as a club with which to beat Isreal.

This may seem unbelievable to naive daisy-toters, or simply too difficult to understand considering the liberal nature of the US, but it is the plain truth. Sometimes it's not comforting, but that indeed doesn't necessarily make something untrue.

So, I didn't mean to gloss over the Israeli issue. In truth, I tire of discussing it, but it's not the primary reason bin Laden hates us. It's merely one of them.

Trevor

Trevor,

Per your Israel comment, they may be occupying territory they shouldn't, and at times they use a heavy hand, but it is also true that if the Palestinians truly wanted peace, they would have abided by original accords that would have granted them nearly everything they asked for initially. They rather chose terror, which is well-documented.
May be occupying? They are occupying thousands of square miles of land they have no right to, which is equally well documented. As to the choosing of terror, I see it as them using whatever means they have available to fight for their existence and survival. They certainly don’t have a military, much like when we started our country, the British considered our tactics terroristic (we wouldn’t meet them on an open field in nice straight musket lines).

I'm no expert in Israeli-Palestinian relations, and how can one be when those two countries apparently don't even know what's going on between them? But one thing I think is more interesting than any speculation on who's right or wrong (we all have our own opinions anyway) is the lack of outcry by the international community and the UN when it comes to Palestinian terrorism. Terrorists are now referred to as "militants" by our major dailies. There certainly is a bias against Israel.
I too do not claim to be an expert, but when you read how the UN partition plan was supposed to work and you look at what we have today, the first thing you notice is that there is a major difference in the boundaries. As to terrorists being referred to as militants, do you think it has anything to do with dealing with an occupying force by the inhabitants?

What is more, the world says nothing when the Arab world puts Palestinians in internment camps (Lebanon in 1948, merely to refuse to acknowledge the existence of Israel), or when a country like Kuwait expels 300,000 Palestinians following the Gulf War, simply because Yasser Arafat sided with Saddam Hussein.
No, the world (aka “The UN”) has spoken to the “refugee” issue at length (it continues to do so), but those words and agreements entered into by the parties have been ignored. Millions of Palestinians have been displaced over the years; they supposedly have the right of return, but that has not been honored either.

As to the first Gulf War, I believe that Kuwait was within it’s right to expel those that sided with the invading forces. But unlike what is going on between Israel and Palestine, Kuwait was protecting their sovereignty.

The fact here, is that much, if not most, of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. It wants them gone. Palestinian plight is not recognized the world over, which is unfortunate, because they are not merely suffering at the hands of Israel. As Mona Charen has commented, the Palestinians are only useful to the Arab world as a club with which to beat Isreal.
I don’t know if I agree with this or not. Israel hasn’t maintained the declared boundaries since declaring independence. Since the end of the initial conflict by the surrounding Arab nations Israel has been on the offensive. They take what they want and displace the inhabitants. It hasn’t returned to those defined borders and tried living within them. In my mind, Israel wants the Arabs gone as much as the Arabs want the Israelis gone, in that sense it’s a classic impasse.

I too tire of discussing this, but when we, the USA, take action against a nation for it’s failure to comply with the provisions of many UN Resolutions (like we did in Iraq) and then ignore the resolutions enacted against Israel it makes us appear extremely hypocritical.

Peace in the Middle East is a national security issue of our nation and we should act accordingly. The framework has been established that determines which land belongs to which country and that should be followed. As long as the occupation and colonization continues so will the hostility and tension. And as long as we continue to blindly support what Israel is doing we will be viewed poorly by many of those in the Arab world and will be targeted by the radical organizations that originate from within that region.

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Give me a break, they’ve used bombs against others (recently too) and that is the way they would do it here. They already have him confined. All they would have to do is bring in an F-16 and drop the ordnance. No fuss, no muss. They wouldn’t risk losing a hit team by going in after him.
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I think all of the World has gotten a great lesson on the usefullness of air-delivered weaponry to kill specific targets. The use of bombs to go after low-level people is one thing, but if you're out to bag the head guy I would hope that the Israelis would have learned from our mistakes in Iraq. The Israelis would need to go in, shoot the POS, and display his body.

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I think your analogy would be better if you looked at it as it really is. That being, in this case, that the bikers walk into your house, kick your ass, rape your wife, steal your valuables and then kicks you off of your property.
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Once more... for those who don't get it... everybody is on the side of the victim. If a bunch of bikers invades a hose and kills, rapes, and pillages... many will come to the rescue. If you have a history of starting the problems, not many people are willing to help you out.


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I noticed you mentioned nothing of the aid being received but talked about assets (declared and undeclared). I know Forbes estimates Arafat’s holdings at $300 million US, but I have seen nothing about the undeclared sums that you mention. But let’s get back to aid, what is the current level going to Palestine? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what's with you sometimes Ken. I'm no detective, but when I the leader of a country... with a median income of less than $5,000 a year (and those are PNA numbers), no measureable GDP, and a shrinkage of their economy of about 11 percent per year... who's sitting on over $300,000,000.00 I really have to wonder where all that money's come from. Then I look at all of the millions in aid coming to the PNA from the US and other countries, and the abject poverty the Palestinians are living in, and I have no problem seeing that the PNA is doing a lot of skimming. What do you think? Maybe Arafat owns a sting of Mercedes dealerships in the West Bank? He's the McDonalds of pita bread baking? C'mon... get real and quit living in denial.

Between the US and other countries (mostly in Europe) the PNA has received more than 2.5 billion dollars worth of aid just in the second half of the 1990s, and about another three billion or so since then. Looking at the way the people live there, do you honestly think that money's being used to help them? Over six billion dollars goes a long way over there.

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Sending goods is helping out; not sending them is what is called not helping. The surrounding Arabs have experienced what the US provided Israeli might can do, shut that off and see what happens.
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I agree... sending goods does help out - provided they are things like food, drugs, clothes, air conditioners, appliances, etc. Sending arms does not do anything but make the situtation worse.


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No, the Palestinians need Israel back within it’s borders first. Get them back where they belong and then the other needs can be more easily obtained.
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Back within what Palestinian borders? Where were the original Palestinian borders? As I understand it there has never been an actual country of Palestine. Am I wrong?

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Who is picking the fight, the one that comes on to your property and claims it as theirs or the property owner that just wants what is his and left alone? That is a little “bass-ackwards”, isn’t it? If the Palestinians laid down the weapons Israel would just take all the land as theirs like they have been doing since they first became independent. It would just be quicker, but that is what I think would happen.

How about reading your very own signature line and apply that thinking towards the Palestinians? If they give up without a fight then they don’t deserve freedom.
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You keep trying to refight the same tired old battles. You're like the dweebs down South who are still trying to fight the Civil War. It doesn't matter who did what to whom first. That's a totally irrelevant argument. It's like two kids doing the "he/she hit me first" routine. What matters is who's doing what to whom now. I also don't think most people have sympathy for groups who use terrorist attacks on civilians as a means to an end, expecially after 9/11.

The only chance that Palestinians have is to quit the attacks and gain the World's sympathy and support as the victim.

Trevor, I have to disagree with you assessment of the outcome of Desert Storm. The fact was that we weren't prepared to topple Hussein and occupy Iraq in order to keep the Syrians, Iranians, or Turks from rushing through the fences. Also, the biggest reason that we didn't take over Iraq in 1992 is that Bush Sr. made the mistake of framing the war too narrowly. He sought, and received, approval from the Congress and the UN to liberate Kuwait, not to take over Iraq. If he had pressed on he would have been torn up in the US and overseas.

Unfortunately, his son didn't learn much from the experience. By narrowly framing the debate on Iraq over WMDs he allowed his critics to tear him up. Bush should have just said we're responding to Iraq declaring Holy War on us and we'll be doing the same to any country that does the same.

Bruzilla,

First off, I am not re-fighting anything and the only dweebs I see are those that feel laws are only applicable to nations other than Israel. Secondly, based on your comments, it is obvious that you have no understanding of the lands that were defined as Israeli and the land that is defined as belonging to the “unnamed” Arab nation. The UN laid it out very clearly and anyone that read it and the provisions of the Geneva Convention would understand that what Israel is doing is in violation of International law, even you. I guess that doesn’t matter to you or you have never bothered to explore the issue beyond your gut feelings. But it does matter to me as it shows clearly the true intent of Israel as it illegally grabs more and more territory for their own use.

Unlike you, I see this situation as being key to that entire region and how we as a nation are viewed and treated by those in that area. Our continued support of Israel’s land theft and their use of military might against a lesser-armed people have made us an accomplice to this effort.

It seems that you will never see Israel as doing anything wrong, is there a reason for this? Do you have some tie to Israel that allows you to keep your head buried in the sand as you ignore the illegalities that they partake?

The only chance that Palestinians have is to quit the attacks and gain the World's sympathy and support as the victim.
Again you have placed the onus on the Palestinians that, in my mind, are doing nothing more than fighting an invading and conquering people. Where are your requirements for the Israelis? Shouldn’t it be a quid-pro-quo type of arrangement something of the nature of as Israel pulls out of all occupied territory and abandons the settlements that the Palestinians halt the homicide bombings? That is what I would like to see happen, but not you, you want the Palestinians to halt their resistance to the Israeli invasion and then what? Let them live in the squalor that Israel has no desire to own.

What matters is who's doing what to whom now.
You’re right. Who is doing what to whom? Who is taking the land? Who is occupying territory that they have no right to? Who is denying basic rights to some of the citizens of their nation (that just happen to be of Arab heritage)? Who is using US provided hardware to continue the illegal activity? Who?

C'mon Ken... I would have thought that petty insults and baiting would be beneath you.

I have no dog in this fight, nor allegience to either side. I have a lot of respect for what the Israelis have accomplished, and I have criticized them when I thought they were wrong. You like to keep focusing the discussion on the US-Israeli bond, but overlook the fact that Israel was a bastard stepchild of the UN and others back in the late 1940's, and they managed to put together the most advanced country in the region in a few short years while their neighbors were still out murdering each other into as they had for centuries. The US didn't rush to Israel's side. The Israelis earned that support by siding with us while everyone else in the region was running to the USSR as fast as they could.

The facts are that the UN created a homeland for the Jews out of a lot of desert. Whether that was a good idea depends on who you ask, and since most of the people who were alive and cognizant when the decision was made are now dead or on their way out the door, my "gut" feeling is that the vast majority of people today don't really care. You don't hear daily reports or discussions of why or why not Israel should have been made a state, you hear discussions about attacks and retaliations, so that's what most people are concerned with. So yeah, you need to quit refighting the battles of 1948 - 1973.

Do I like the Israelis? From a military viewpoint... YES! They've got an outstanding military that in a lot of ways is better than ours. They buy a lot of hardware from the US, take it into hangers and buildings to be improved, and when it comes out the other side it's better than our stuff. They've been outgunned and outmanned in every major confrontation and they always win. How many times have the Israeli's just up and declared war on anybody? The only time that I've seen Israel use military force they're responding to threats, attacks, or wars from the Arabs.

From a political standpoint, I used to like them but they fell out of favor with me in the 80s and 90s. Not because of the Palestinians, but because of their complete silence on the issue of ethnic cleansing and genocide in South East Asia, the Balkens, etc. The Israelis have guilted millions of dollars from the US and other countries by damning us for not helping the German Jews during World War II, and the need to ensure that something like the Holocaust never happens again. Then when it does, the Israelis sit quietly by as Asians and Muslims are murdered by the thousands.

Sorry you disagree with me, but once again - the Palestinians are never going to get what they want by attacking the Jews. Never, never, NEVER. What they will get is wiped out by the Israelis once they've had enough of the terror attacks. Like the old adage goes "we often give our enemies the means to our own destruction." The Palestinians are giving the Israelis much more valuable ammunition to use against them than anything the US could ever give.

Bruzilla,

I was asking a question, not baiting? Trying to achieve an understanding of where you are coming from and why you have a disregard for international laws and treaties.

Also, I am not re-fighting the battles of 1948 to 1973. They have been fought and Israel won, but what you have been missing all along is that it is illegal to make territorial gains from conflict as Israel has done. This hasn’t been a civil war within one nation, there are defined boundaries and they must be honored. Doing so would have additional benefit, though I doubt if you would see it or admit it if you did.

You say Israel “buys” equipment from us and makes it better. Don’t you mean they take the equipment that we, the taxpayers, pay for and Congress gifts to them (to the tune of more than 3 billion a year)?

I understand why we aligned ourselves with Israel during the cold war years, but you know the need to have a staunch ally in the region is now moot. Our support for those reasons hasn’t been necessary since the late 80s, about the time my view of Israel changed. When Israel served our needs it was easy to understand the expenditure of funds and our turning away when they did something outrageous. I never paid attention before then. It has been only 15 or so years that I started looking into what they had been doing. Israel will do whatever Israel wants to and “to hell” with the rest of the world. They are now a threat to peace and security for that region, and us, by what they are doing in Palestine and the surrounding nations.

How many times have the Israeli's just up and declared war on anybody? The only time that I've seen Israel use military force they're responding to threats, attacks, or wars from the Arabs.
Don’t know about “declaring war”, but how about attacked? Oh, and so I am clear, you believe that threats alone are a valid reason for an assault?
October 1956 – Israel attacks the Suez Canal.
June 1967 – Israel attacks Egypt.
June 1981 – Israel attacks Iraq
June 1982 – Israel attacks Lebanon
October 2003 – Israel attacks Syria

Sorry you disagree with me, but once again - the Palestinians are never going to get what they want by attacking the Jews. Never, never, NEVER.
And disagreement is okay, but what I want to know is how is it that the Palestinians are called the attacker when it is their land that is being occupied and colonized?

You're still missing the point, which is not who's the worser evil. You're never going to find agreement on that point. That's why Warren Christopher failed so miserably back in the 90's to forge a peace agreement. The Norwegians forged ahead because they asked "what's the minimum that's acceptable" to both sides rather than "what are your demands?"

My point is that if the Palestinians quit committing atrocities like the latest bombing, and quit doing things that the Israelis can claim are provocations, then the World will come to the Palestinian's side and force Israel to change its ways. If you want peace in the region, that's how they're going to get it. The way things go now is that everything is quiet and peace talks are progressing, then some Palestinian blows themself up and takes a bunch of Israelis with him/her. Then the Israelis retaliate and the Arabs run around pointing their fingers at the Israelis and show video of dead Palestinian kids. That approach may have worked at one time, but not anymore. I think that most people are just as mad about Palestinians targeting civilians using terrorist attacks as they are of the Israeli Army coming into a city with tanks. Like it or not, I don't think many people see any difference between Palestinians and Israelis anymore... one is just as bad as the other.

I’m not looking at it from the point of which side is more evil; there is plenty of evil to go around on both sides. I’m looking at it from a legal viewpoint, based on established boundaries, International law, and many UN resolutions. The minimum acceptable is compliance with those existing laws and resolutions. We demand it of everyone else except Israel and we should demand it of them too. That has been my consistent point.

You seem to be playing a blame game where all the blame is on the shoulders of the Palestinians (or more specifically Yassar Arafat). You don’t consider the theft of lands, displacement of people, civil rights violations, and other Israeli atrocities as being culpable for the acts carried out by the Palestinians.

Having never lived under the oppression that these people have had to contend with for nearly a half of a century I fully do not appreciate their plight. But I do understand how it might be and what I might do if were subjected to the same. One thing I wouldn’t do is just sit back on my haunches and watch it continue as you suggest they should do.

Israel, as the supposed Democracy in the region, should take the lead and do what is right by returning to their defined borders and complying with International law and the UN resolutions concerning the issue. Then if the bombings continue they would be within their rights to go after the culprits. But as it is they are the aggressor, they are occupying and colonizing land beyond their borders and crying outrage when those they are oppressing and stealing from fight back. It seems to me that what they are doing, besides being illegal, is totally hypocritical.