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It has been 40 years since the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy and in my mind there has yet to be a credible explanation of the events of that day and the results of the much heralded Warren Report. The single shooter theory endorsed by that report still does not explain many of the conspiracy issues.

I myself do not believe that Oswald was involved at all in the shootings. He may have been involved in the planning phase as an operative for the government to foil the plan or provide warning of it and I think that was the extent of his participation. I fully believe that he was made the scapegoat for those that would gain the most from the removal of President Kennedy and provided an excellent stooge to focus the blame on in the ensuing cover up.

The conspiracy issues I was talking about above are:

1.How did Oswald become aware of the exact route the motorcade would use in time to plan the sniper location?
2.Why did the route allow for such a drastic turn that slowed the vehicle below any acceptable rate of speed that was normally used when the President traveled?
3.Why was there no advance military security detail as is normal in Presidential visit preparations?
4.Why was there only a minimal Secret Service detail and that windows in buildings along the route were allowed to be left open against standard operating procedures?
5.Why was the Presidents body removed from Texas, contrary to the laws of Texas?
6.Why was the forensic investigation of the corpse conducted by pathologists that were not forensic specialists and oversaw by many that should not have been in the examining room?
7.How did Jack Ruby gain access to not only the police station were he shot and killed Oswald but also the hospital where the President was first taken and the pristine bullet was later found lying on the gurney that brought Governor Connelly in?

All of these questions point to something greater then just the single shooter concept (I have more and these themselves generate others). It tells me that there were many more people involved, which by definition results in a conspiracy. These questions point to something other then coincidence, they point to a well thought out plan to not only execute the leader of the USA but to cover it up. The Warren Commission was a sham and failed the people of the USA. It did nothing but endorse the notion that Oswald acted alone. It did not place any credence on the accounts of many of the witnesses or resolve the questions I posed above.

Now, who would have benefited the most from the removal of Kennedy as our President? Immediately I think of his successor, LBJ. Then I consider the desire of the mafia to regain control of Cuba from Castor (that Kennedy failed to do after the failure of the Bay of Pigs) and the successful resolution of the Cuban missile crisis. I look further to the immediate escalation of the campaign in Vietnam that Kennedy had planned to withdraw from. Granted this is all speculation on my part, but it provides many motives for the removal of Kennedy as the President.

But when looking at who had the ability to control and pull off the cover up I would venture to say that the mafia, while powerful, didn't have the requisite ability. This leaves me to believe that it was either LBJ or those within the government that wanted the war in Vietnam to continue or, more then likely, both.

It seems ironic to me that prior to Kennedy being assassinated the Pentagon had re-evaluated it's involvement in that campaign and called for the withdrawal of our troops. Just 3 days after the President's death the Pentagon re-evaluated its recent re-evaluation and instead of continuing to bring the troops home, as had been started, the course was reversed and the buildup began taking our troop strength from 17,000 rapidly towards 125,000 by July 1965 and reaching the maximum level of more than 500,000 by 1968. The only thing that had changed in that time was the person at the top, the President.

I, myself, am not satisfied with the conclusions of the Warren Commission and I feel that a disservice was done to the people of this nation and to the President for not fully determining what occurred that day in Dallas. Some of you might accept their findings but for me I never will. I think that we should re-open the investigation and determine what has happened to much of the lost evidence, the mysterious deaths of many of the witnesses, and who was involved in what could be called a coup d'etat.

It must be a result of working for the federal government for close to 30 years, but I don't see a conspiracy in the issues you mention. I see the typical screwups and messups common to anything having to do with the government.

1.How did Oswald become aware of the exact route the motorcade would use in time to plan the sniper location? Probably the same way that the thousands of people who stood along the roads watching the motorcade did... from the papers or TV news.

2.Why did the route allow for such a drastic turn that slowed the vehicle below any acceptable rate of speed that was normally used when the President traveled? Most likely it was someone in Dallas who developed the route and had no clue about minimum speeds, and whoever approved the route missed it.

3.Why was there no advance military security detail as is normal in Presidential visit preparations? It's normal but not mandatory.

4.Why was there only a minimal Secret Service detail and that windows in buildings along the route were allowed to be left open against standard operating procedures? Because someone at the Secret Service screwed up?

5.Why was the Presidents body removed from Texas, contrary to the laws of Texas? Maybe because LBJ didn't feel that he had to follow the laws of Texas once he was POTUS?

6.Why was the forensic investigation of the corpse conducted by pathologists that were not forensic specialists and oversaw by many that should not have been in the examining room? Because they were picked for political reasons that had nothing to do with their abilities?

7.How did Jack Ruby gain access to not only the police station were he shot and killed Oswald but also the hospital where the President was first taken and the pristine bullet was later found lying on the gurney that brought Governor Connelly in? Maybe because these are both public places and no one thought to restrict access?

Since hindsight is always 20/20, it's easy to read things into events that were never planned or thought out. They were just teh results of a lot of beaurocrats running about trying to look busy or important, and most often, just luck (good or bad).

1.How did Oswald become aware of the exact route the motorcade would use in time to plan the sniper location? Probably the same way that the thousands of people who stood along the roads watching the motorcade did

HA!

2.Why did the route allow for such a drastic turn that slowed the vehicle below any acceptable rate of speed that was normally used when the President traveled? Most likely it was someone in Dallas who developed the route and had no clue about minimum speeds, and whoever approved the route missed it.

HA HA!

3.Why was there no advance military security detail as is normal in Presidential visit preparations? It's normal but not mandatory.

Ooh. Dark, sinister! I'll give you this one as I am a nice guy.

4.Why was there only a minimal Secret Service detail and that windows in buildings along the route were allowed to be left open against standard operating procedures? Because someone at the Secret Service screwed up

I'll give you this one as well, but we already know Clint Eastwood was out drinking the night before. SS wanted him dead? Ha.

5.Why was the Presidents body removed from Texas, contrary to the laws of Texas? Maybe because LBJ didn't feel that he had to follow the laws of Texas once he was POTUS?

Can you imagine the conspiracy had it been left to what would have been assailed as a backwoods sawbones? Ha.

6.Why was the forensic investigation of the corpse conducted by pathologists that were not forensic specialists and oversaw by many that should not have been in the examining room? Because they were picked for political reasons that had nothing to do with their abilities?

Bob Kennedy was not about to let anyone discover how diseased JFK was. Ha.

7.How did Jack Ruby gain access to not only the police station were he shot and killed Oswald

Ruby was well known by the cops and besides, look at the film. Who WASN'T there? Ha. (My uncle, an ABC reporter was there. I'll ask him at Thanksgiving what he thinks!)

As far as the bullet; all lies.

Now, time for "Two Minute Hate"

Ready, begin!

Originally posted by Ken King
This leaves me to believe that it was either LBJ or those within the government that wanted the war in Vietnam to continue or, more then likely, both.

It seems ironic to me that prior to Kennedy being assassinated the Pentagon had re-evaluated it's involvement in that campaign and called for the withdrawal of our troops. Just 3 days after the President's death the Pentagon re-evaluated its recent re-evaluation and instead of continuing to bring the troops home, as had been started, the course was reversed and the buildup began taking our troop strength from 17,000 rapidly towards 125,000 by July 1965 and reaching the maximum level of more than 500,000 by 1968. The only thing that had changed in that time was the person at the top, the President.

Sounds like Oliver Stone's theory, except he threw in a conspiracy of military-industrial complex types in cahoots with the intelligence community.

I'm undecided, but I thought this was an interesting point:

...the big problem with this case is that there was no trial. If there had been a trial all of this would have been tested. So part of what we tried to do in this film, was try to give people a fair representation that leads people toward doubt and not having doubt that Oswald acted alone.

You can never erase all doubt. Never. What a jury does, though, is sift through it all and come to a decision beyond a reasonable doubt and that's a good standard. Life is too complicated to be seen as pristine.

People also hold two thoughts in their head and can't see them as not being connected. That the CIA could cover-up information they have and not be part of the assassination. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.The mob probably did want Kennedy dead, but it doesn't mean they did it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27851-2003Oct1.html

By the way, Ken, do you believe that anyone younger than, say, 50 doesn't have an ethical right to an opinion about the assassination? Even though I'm 37, you wouldn't hurt my feelings if you felt that way.

Originally posted by Tonio
By the way, Ken, do you believe that anyone younger than, say, 50 doesn't have an ethical right to an opinion about the assassination? Even though I'm 37, you wouldn't hurt my feelings if you felt that way.
Why would I believe that? I wasn't even a teenager when this took place and didn't care much about it back then, other then seeing Oswald shot on TV, pretty scarry back then.

Probably the same way that the thousands of people who stood along the roads watching the motorcade did... from the papers or TV news.
From what I have found out it was in that day’s morning edition of the Dallas papers. They knew he was coming to town but the exact route wasn’t given out. So I guess you believe that Oswald was just hoping that the motorcade would pass by his workplace and with that hope he brought a weapon to work that not one single person saw him there with.

Most likely it was someone in Dallas who developed the route and had no clue about minimum speeds, and whoever approved the route missed it.
Convenient, if you don’t care that the result was the death of the President. It wasn’t missed it was planned.

It's normal but not mandatory.
It was normal at that time and the Secret Service personnel interviewed said it was a major deviation from the standard, again a factor of convenience for those that have bought into the Warren version, but something that the detail would not have missed.

Because someone at the Secret Service screwed up?
A lot of screw ups, or was this a well thought out plan?

Maybe because LBJ didn't feel that he had to follow the laws of Texas once he was POTUS?
And why would Johnson want this? To cover up the fact that it was a planned assassination for his benefit. So that he could control the examination as much as possible.

Because they were picked for political reasons that had nothing to do with their abilities?
And this would be supportive of bringing those responsible for the death to justice or facilitate a cover up?

Maybe because these are both public places and no one thought to restrict access?
Both of these areas were immediately under increased security and access was being restricted. The police department garage ramp where Ruby claims to have gained access was under guard and the man on duty vehemently denies that Ruby’s access was via that route.

Since hindsight is always 20/20, it's easy to read things into events that were never planned or thought out. They were just teh results of a lot of beaurocrats running about trying to look busy or important, and most often, just luck (good or bad).
Prove just this one point from the Warren report and you will convince me that I am wrong. Prove that the bullet that hit Kennedy in the back and left through the neck was also the bullet that hit Connelly as the report contends. Look at the Zapruder film and account for the delay in Kennedy reaching for that wound and for when Connelly reacts to being hit. Seeing is believing, some of you need to open your eyes and take a look.

Originally posted by Ken King
Why would I believe that? I wasn't even a teenager when this took place and didn't care much about it back then, other then seeing Oswald shot on TV, pretty scarry back then.

Thanks, Ken. When I was in my early 20s, I met older people who seemed to take it personally that I wasn't born yet in 1963. Of course, that was their problem, not mine.

I have a question:

Was Oswald working at the book depository at the time of the assassination or was he a former employee?

The reason I ask is if he was a former employee, okay - he got wind that that's where Kennedy was coming through, knew the layout so he snuck in, set up and there ya go.

If he was a current employee.....what are the odds that the motorcade would just happen to go right past the work place of someone who was planning an assassination? That's an ENORMOUS coincidence, don't you think?

*bump* for Bru and Larry.

...Oz was a current employee of the TSBD.

Originally posted by Larry Gude
...Oz was a current employee of the TSBD. And no other comment?

No "Maybe Oswald found out the route and then got a job at the TSBD"?

How about "He got the idea to assassinate JFK after he found out the motorcade would be going right past"?

If a President is going somwhere, he gets there by the quickest means possible. The fact that Kennedy was in a slow moving convertible with the top down, as part of a slow-moving motorcade, shows that this was not a trip to the airport but a procession through the streets of Dallas. And I'm sure all of those thousands of people who were lining the streets were just passerby who were at the right place at the right time. I'm sure the route was well publicized in advance so that Kennedy could be seen by his public.

Anyway, there's always a dozen or so ways to read anything that happens. And it's always easy to find something sinister or good in one's actions depending on the point of view you have in mind. I can agree with LBJ's decision to go back to DC reguardless of Texas law. If I were him I would have done the same thing... get everyone back to DC as soon as possible and show that everything is still under control.

As for the other oversights you mentioned, I can think of many similar goofs and gaffes that I've witnessed over the years that were on a similar scale. Sometimes they've led to disaster and sometimes to someone getting yelled at for doing something wrong. They are not signs of a vast conspiracy... just human stupidity.

Originally posted by Bruzilla
I'm sure the route was well publicized in advance so that Kennedy could be seen by his public. Far enough in advance that Oswald could get a job someplace along the route?

Well... if all those thousands of well wishers knew long enough in advance of where to be, why wouldn't Oswald? I think it's likely that Oswald was sitting at a table reading the newspaper, and sees the route map pasted on page 2, along with a list of all the roads that will be closed, and saying "Ok... of I'm going to shoot Kennedy, where's the best place to be? Aha! Voila! They are going right past a building that I have access to and where I can get a good shot off from!"

Of course there's the conspiratist's view of a dark meeting between Oswald and some agents that went:

Agents: So what buildings in Dallas do you have access to?
Oswald: Ah... I'm about to shoot the President, so do you really think I'm worried about breaking into a building?
Agents: You have access to the book depository don't you?
Oswald: Yes, but there are plenty of other shooting positions that would offer a much better shot.
Agents: We would prefer that you take the trickier shot from the school depository.
Oswald: But I'll be taking the shots with trees in the way and from above and behind. It would be better if I was above and infront of the target, with a clear view for subsequent shots if needed.
Agents: Once again, We would prefer that you take the trickier shot from the school depository. Now we have to make changes to the route plan that no one will question and that will take the President through a slow turn right in front of your position.
Oswald: How slow will the car be going?
Agents: Ah... we don't know, but they'll have to slow down somewhat to make a turn.
Oswald: But if he's driving around waving to the crowds, won't he be going pretty slow already?
Agents: Quit asking so damn many questions!

Operations like this usually succeed or fail based on luck or consequence, not prior planning.

:duh: to Bru.

Conspiracy theory has it that this assassination was planned well in advance. They planted Oswald at the TSBD, then routed the motorcade. There were at least two other shooters besides Oswald - they formed a triangle when the motorcade came into position.

Smoking Gun has the autopsy report. Of specific interest is Pg. 2 (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jfk2/protocol4.html), paragraph 1:

"In the underlying bone (of the occipital bone, which is at the base of the skull) is a corresponding wound to the skull which exhibits beveling of the margins of the bone when viewed from the inner aspect of the skull."

The beveling from the inside of the skull would be from an exit wound, not an entry wound. Therefore, Kennedy was shot in the front of the head and it blew out the back of his skull.

...fascinating.

Go to:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/etc/links.html#5

Browse around for a bit, especially the link to review assassination books. Hell, look anywhere.

I would have thought that PBS was a neutral arbiter of the truth but it doesn't take long to realize that in the popular opinion, the PBS site and most other references including our SOMD poll in 'current events' that the ONLY thing that is IMPOSSIBLE about JFK's death is that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

Every fact or bit of evidence or study, including the Warren report that states and/or proves Oswald acted alone is DISMISSED.

What about this?

What about that?

Yeah but...yeah but...yeah but...

And still, to this day, the conspiracies are so grand, so eloquent and so well executed that not one single piece of credible evidence stands alone other than these facts:

Kennedy was shot with rounds from Oswalds rifle.
Kennedy was shot from behind from the direction of the TSBD

There is still only one person who fits the motive and the opportunity and there is still only one unanimous opinion from the pro conspiracy ranks: Oswald could NOT have done it.

Theories abound. No facts. EVERYTHING was covered up, the single most effective group action in world history. We know all about who did in Ceasar. We know all about those who tried to kill Hitler, the most secret society maybe in history after the Soviets.

We KNOW John Hinckley acted alone. We know all about John Wilkes Booth 138 years ago. We even know who killed Jim Hoffa.

But we don't know a damn thing about Kennedy for sure except...

It couldn't be Lee H. Oswald.

Thought I'd point that out so we can eliminate him because I actually found one theory that says Kennedy had himself shot.
They have proof to. At least, proof it WASN'T Oswald.

Vrai, the TSBD was an adequate place to shoot from, meaning it met the minimal criteria needed to get the job done. If I were Oswald, and I had access to all these mafia/Massad/Cuban/Johnson conspirators, who had all this alledged power to plan routes and place the president wherever I wanted him, I would bet that there were dozens of optimal shooting points that I would have picked. I would certainly not choose the TSBD. Also, I would have an effective escape plan in place, which Oswald apparently didn't have.

Originally posted by Bruzilla
Also, I would have an effective escape plan in place, which Oswald apparently didn't have.
If this was in fact true, how was it that they didn't get him until later at the theater after he calmly walked out of the TSBD?

I notice that the guys that say he was the lone shooter have yet to explain the delay in Connelly's reaction to being shot and the hit that Kennedy took from the bullet that you say was from the same shot. Did that bullet just tumble in mid-air for a second or two before continuing on?

I want to hear Bru or Larry say two things, then I'll call it a day:

[list=1]
It was merely an extraordinary coincidence that the motorcade went past Oswald's place of employment.
The autopsy reports are wrong and the accounts of the hospital personnel are wrong.
[/list=1]

Vrai, remember that we're talking about 1963 here, not CSI on Thursday nights. In 1963 you had poor technology, poor forensics, and poor communications. In a crisis situation, which this certainly was, mistakes frequently happen. And since hindsight is always 20/20 it's easy to formulate theories based on events that are completely bogus. There's no shortage of botched autopsies, they happen all the time. And the recollections of any group of people, yet alone people in a maxed-out crisis mode, should always be taken with a big grain of salt.

The autopsy was done on the quick because officals wanted answers fast, and anytime that you rush the checklist things can be done incorrectly. And again, we're talking a 1963 "best guess" autopsy here, not a CSI special. It amazes me how the conspiracy buffs are so willing to question the validity of so much evidence yet they like to take the accuracy of the autopsy as gospel.

I don't think it was coincidence that the motorcade went past Oswald's place of employment, just opportunity. How many tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of places of employment did the motorcade pass as it went through a city the size of Dallas? I could see your point if the motorcade meandered off on some obscure road where there was only one building, and said building turned out to be the shooter's workplace. The resounding issue is still why would a guy who had all of this alledged access to plans, routes, and conspirators pick the TSBD to shoot from? He wouldn't.

I don't know about you Ken, but if I had just shot POTUS for the benefit of the White House, the Mafia, the Cubans, the MASSAD, or whoever had the beans to set it up, I wouldn't have been sitting in a Dallas movie theater taking in a flick. I would have been living the sweet life out in Pago-Pago. Yeah, Oswald may have gotten out of the building, that was a given in a crisis-panic situation, but why was he still hanging around after that? Sounds to me like he didn't have much of an escape plan nor did he see a need for one... not quite the rationale of a master conspirator now is it?