David Hasselhoff is in the news again for his drinking woes and the commentator said it is a disease.

Given the current health care debates and my recent thought of just how overwhelmed the system is going to become when people who typically just deal with their maladies, stoic or stupid, be what reasons they may, suddenly going to the doc every time they burp or fart because it's 'free' and 'more accessible', what about drugs and alcohol? Gotta treat that too, right?

So...

Poor behavior that leads to disease (delerium tremens, and other similar alcohol withdrawal symptoms as well as cirrhosis and/or fatty liver, among MANY other medical complications).

It's certainly not something you catch, but it can be developed like a lot of other diseases. Also like a lot of other developed diseases, it's entirely preventable. You just have no nip stupid in the bud before you get there. Or get psychiatric treatment.

I was told it was because I was a ####ing #######... so I voted behavior

Poor behavior that leads to disease (delerium tremens, and other similar alcohol withdrawal symptoms as well as cirrhosis and/or fatty liver, among MANY other medical complications).

It's certainly not something you catch, but it can be developed like a lot of other diseases. Also like a lot of other developed diseases, it's entirely preventable. You just have no nip stupid in the bud before you get there. Or get psychiatric treatment.

Good post..and pretty much my opinion. :yay:

I was told it was because I was a ####ing #######... so I voted behavior

No, you're mistaken, it's instant #######, add alcohol :yay:
Do you drink b/c you're a jerk or are you just a jerk when you drink?

I agree with LS, a preventable behavior that can become a disease.

No, you're mistaken, it's instant #######, add alcohol :yay:
Do you drink b/c you're a jerk or are you just a jerk when you drink?

I agree with LS, a preventable behavior that can become a disease.

I drink to suppress my upper functioning brain.. It helps me deal with the ####in lowlives I run into and deal with on a day to day basis. Depressing myself makes me your equal, so to speak.

David Hasselhoff is in the news again for his drinking woes and the commentator said it is a disease.

Given the current health care debates and my recent thought of just how overwhelmed the system is going to become when people who typically just deal with their maladies, stoic or stupid, be what reasons they may, suddenly going to the doc every time they burp or fart because it's 'free' and 'more accessible', what about drugs and alcohol? Gotta treat that too, right?

So...

I believe it's about 6 of one and half dozen of the other. It's a proven fact that children of alcoholic parents are more likely to become alcoholic themselves or to be attracted to alcoholics. Whether this is due to a learned behavior pattern stemming from early childhood or genetics is unclear. Some people have naturally addictive personalities and simply cannot say no to their addictions. Other people cannot cope with the world around them (which is another disease/disorder) and their method of treating the illness is to self medicate.

That being said, I believe it also denotes a weakness of character when someone cannot control themselves when using legal mind-altering substances.

Like nicotine addiction, the body can develop a dependency on the alcohol which can cause symptoms upon withdrawal.

Is it something I think our healthcare system should be treating exclusively as a disease? No. The high relapse rate would indicate that it's not a sound investment based on the current treatments available. Ultimately, if a person chooses to quit drinking, they will quit drinking. If they choose to continue drinking, thinking they have control of their impulsive urges, and it turns out they lack the self control to drink responsibly, it is not something a health insurance should have to pay for.

I agree with LS, a preventable behavior that can lead to a disease.

:fixed:

Like liver damage and brain dysfunction.

Addictive behaviors are just that - behaviors. When you go to AA or any other rehab type of environment, they treat the behavior, not your body (unless you're in DTs or something).

I am so sick of everything being medicalized. Alcoholism is not a disease. No one makes you drink, no one makes you keep drinking. ANy more that a heroine addict has a disease. Medicalizing things like drug and alcohol abuse is very dangerous in my view. It gives people an excuse to not own their own behavior. This is one of the reaons I do not agree with 12 step type programs. though they have good elements..addicts are essentially taught that they are sick..that they can't help it..that they will be "sick" all their lives and they have to manage it..much like diabetes. Problem is..addiction is nothing like diabetes. Addiction is a matter of pure will. People with diabetes cannot simply will their body to produce insulin. it is a ridiculous comparison. Addicts are people who through no one's fault but their own made bad decsions and drank to excess...or snorted coke...or shot up or what have you. lets call addicts what they really are..weak willed people who let their vices take ahold of them. if they stop doing coke, alcohol whatever..they will no longer be addicts and life will be fine. The psych ward is full of old crusty drunks who go there for free "anxiety" medication..then go out take their pills and drink..all cuz you can bill insurance companies under the diagnosis of "alcohol dependence"

It gives people an excuse to not own their own behavior.

I agree with this. But the 12-step program is all about owning your behavior.

I drink to suppress my upper functioning brain.. It helps me deal with the ####in lowlives I run into and deal with on a day to day basis. Depressing myself makes me your equal, so to speak.

I'll drink to that quote or is it an excuse...who cares! :buddies:

The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians all consider and classify alcoholism as a disease - a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated.

So alcoholism is NOT a disease but what happens as a result of being an alcoholic (the body breaking down in various stages, liver, heart, what have you) that is the disease?

Once you have reached a certain point when you're constantly drinking it becomes a death sentence where your next drink could be your last even if it's one.
In the beginning, you start to drink, find you need more and more to become intoxicated. Once this becomes your life (as an alcoholic) you hit a hump, the point of no return so to speak. On the other side it's a slippery slope to death. If you stop drinking at this point, no matter how long you go without, the next time you pick up a drink, it could be your last, not because you won't stop, but because your body could shut down, it can't handle it.

With that said, as an alcoholic on the downside of the slippery slope, would that mean it's a serious condition and not a disease?

I am so sick of everything being medicalized. Cancer is not a disease. No one makes you cough, no one makes you keep coughing.

The World Health Organization (WHO) acknowledged Alcoholism as a serious medical problem in 1951, and the American Medical Association declared alcoholism as a treatable illness in 1956 (http://www.hopenetworks.org/addiction/alcohol/Alcoholism.htm)

The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians all consider and classify alcoholism as a disease - a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated.

I love it when you talk clinical...:smoochy:

I love it when you talk clinical...:smoochy:
Do you want to play doctor? :biggrin:

Good post..and pretty much my opinion. :yay:

:yeahthat:

The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians all consider and classify alcoholism as a disease - a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated.

Then all addictions must be diseases as well, right?

Then all addictions must be diseases as well, right?

:popcorn:

Then all addictions must be diseases as well, right?
Do all addictions have a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated?

Weather or not alcoholism is a disease has long been debated.
Current thought is that the Disease Concept (http://www.alcohol-drug-treatment.net/disease_concept.html)works in understanding and treating the physical, emotional and spiritual effects of drinking.

Having worked in field as an addictions counselor (after 25 years I retired) and having worked as an adolescent counsleor, and having had a great deal of training and having been certified in Maryland, I believe there is no clear cut answer.

(Not to mention being sober for 32+ years and an active member of AA.)
I am not sure if alcoholism is a disease...or a behavior that evolves into an addiction.

I know I can't drink, and I did evolve from a casual drinker to an out of control drinker with blackouts at the age of 23, and ended up in rehab.
I later found out that my grandfather was an alcoholic as was my mother.

Am I addicted to alcohol? I dont know.
What I do know is that I am better off not drinking than I was when I was drinking.

Some people can drink to excess and have no problems, other have a few drinks, go into a chemically induced blackout and call themselves addicted.

But just what is "addiction"? :shrug:
The more we learn about brain physiology, the more we learn about behaviors and physical addictions.

For you consideration:

Man takes a drink.
Drink takes a drink.
Drink takes a man.

And about will power....
Next time you are sick with a disease that causes you to have diarrhea, see how well you can control it using you will power.

Good topic!

Do all addictions have a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated?

Drugs
Smoking
Overeating
Sex

You could make the case for all of them.

My mother is an alcoholic. Nobody else in the family is. -1

Alcoholics don't always die prematurely. Some live to quite an advanced age. -1

There are no obvious signs or symptoms of alcoholism across the board. -1

Not sure what you mean by "natural progression" but so far alcoholism is striking out on the disease meter.

I kinda see it as being similar to Type 2 diabetes, which is a disease, right? It can be genetic, but it can be prevented and reversed with the right lifestyle.

I kinda see it as being similar to Type 2 diabetes, which is a disease, right? It can be genetic, but it can be prevented and reversed with the right lifestyle.

How? By consistent poor diet?

How? By consistent poor diet?

Poor diet, not enough exercise.

And I don't know if the diabetes can be completely reversed, but it can be managed with proper diet. Someone in my family was just diagnosed with it, and the doc said a proper diet will stop it. That means I need to be managing my diet properly if I want to avoid getting it in the future.

Drugs
Smoking
Overeating
Sex

You could make the case for all of them.

My mother is an alcoholic. Nobody else in the family is. -1

Alcoholics don't always die prematurely. Some live to quite an advanced age. -1

There are no obvious signs or symptoms of alcoholism across the board. -1

Not sure what you mean by "natural progression" but so far alcoholism is striking out on the disease meter.
Believe what you want, but I will leave the classifying of diseases to those professional organizations that I listed above as they, in my mind, are the experts.

I kinda see it as being similar to Type 2 diabetes, which is a disease, right? It can be genetic, but it can be prevented and reversed with the right lifestyle.

I see it more as an issue of really bad impulse control. Same thing with morbid obesity, smoking, drug abuse, and sex "addicted" people. Drinking, eating, drugs, smoking, and sex are fun and these folks don't want to rein themselves in. If they do get control it's only after they have life threatening health issues but they never stop wanting their "fix". I quit smoking many years ago now, I still want a cigarette and think about it daily. Will I? No, I won't let it own me again and I won't let my impulse to buy the smokes take over. Once the drink, drugs, and nicotine are out of your system and the withdrawal is over they just don't have the impulse control to say no to their pleasures even for their own good.

Believe what you want, but I will leave the classifying of diseases to those professional organizations that I listed above as they, in my mind, are the experts.

I don't leave anything to the "professional" organizations because they have an agenda and don't always release information that doesn't coincide with what they've already decreed. Second-hand smoke studies would be one of them. Global warming would be another.

I see it more as an issue of really bad impulse control.

Right....those who know they *may* be genetically predisposed to certain things (alcoholism, type 2 diabetes, etc) should be more in control so they don't give in to the temptation of drinking or eating bad foods.:shrug:

The World Health Organization (WHO) acknowledged Alcoholism as a serious medical problem in 1951, and the American Medical Association declared alcoholism as a treatable illness in 1956 (http://www.hopenetworks.org/addiction/alcohol/Alcoholism.htm)

That has an extremely simple explanation. Money. Unless something is classified as an illness..it cannot be billed for treatment to an insurance co. That is how countless "psychiatric" illnesses came about as well. a good pt base..and tons of money in "treating" what could easily be fixed with a little gumption and character.


not all type 2 diabetics are overweight or eat poorly. however, all alcoholics drink.


Because something has health reprecussions does not make it a disease. car crashes kill you too.,.but are not a disease.

I have the obvious signs and symptoms of liking rock and roll..still not a disease.

do smokers have a disease?

the genetic component is overhyped..went controlling for other things such as socioeconomic status andage of first drink, area where they live. etc etc it doesnt really show much. I will try to find a real study to show this..


here is what my favorite professor told me.
When you hold a gun up to the head of someone with diabetes..you cannot make him start producing insulin. But you sure as hell can stop that drunk from taking a drink.

I don't leave anything to the "professional" organizations because they have an agenda and don't always release information that doesn't coincide with what they've already decreed. Second-hand smoke studies would be one of them. Global warming would be another.
Who or what should determine if it is a disease or not, SOMD forum Larry Gude polls?

Who or what should determine if it is a disease or not, SOMD forum Larry Gude polls?

Hey now, Larry Gude polls could very well change the face of our nation... well, if people actually started paying attention to them.

That has an extremely simple explanation. Money. Unless something is classified as an illness..it cannot be billed for treatment to an insurance co. That is how countless "psychiatric" illnesses came about as well. a good pt base..and tons of money in "treating" what could easily be fixed with a little gumption and character.



As noted in the article about the Disease Concept (http://www.alcohol-drug-treatment.net/disease.html), and of which you hit off: Money!!

And the amount of money poured into the "Prevention" aspect of addiction is in the billions!!!



As earlier stated, the disease concept is controversial and not without critics. Two well-known critics are Stanton Peele (16) and Herbert Fingarette (15), both of whom have written books, as well as articles disputing the disease concept of addiction.

Since the disease concept is attributed to Jellinek, a lot of criticism has been directed at his research, which was the basis for his conclusions about the disease concept. Jellinek's data were gathered from questionnaires that were distributed to AA members through its newsletter, "The Grapevine". Of 158 questionnaires returned, 60 were discarded because members had pooled and averaged their responses, and no questionnaires from women were used. Jellinek himself acknowledged that his data was limited. Therefore, one might wonder why Jellinek's concept of the disease of alcoholism received such widespread acceptance.

One reason is that the disease concept is consistent with the philosophy of AA, which is by far the largest organized group dedicated to help for alcoholics.
Secondly, as Peele noted: "The disease model has been so profitable and politically successful that it has spread to include problems of eating, child abuse, gambling, shopping, premenstrual tension, compulsive love affairs, and almost every other form of self-destructive behavior... From this perspective, nearly every American can be said to have a disease of addiction." (16)

Who or what should determine if it is a disease or not, SOMD forum Larry Gude polls?

Believe addictive behaviors are a disease of you want. Makes no difference to me. :shrug:

Hey now, Larry Gude polls could very well change the face of our nation... well, if people actually started paying attention to them.

It is my deeply held suspicion that you, most likely, think you are funny.

here is what my favorite professor told me.
When you hold a gun up to the head of someone with diabetes..you cannot make him start producing insulin. But you sure as hell can stop that drunk from taking a drink.

:yay:

It's the "want to". There are all kinds of people who go to their graves drinking and drugging. Then there are those who decide that that's not the life they want, and they stop. Some stop with help and some just...stop.

You cannot just stop having cancer or diabetes or whatever.

Who or what should determine if it is a disease or not, SOMD forum Larry Gude polls?

It's a forum. A discussion forum. For discussing things, even arguing. Not so everyone holds hands and agrees.

:buddies:

here is what my favorite professor told me.
When you hold a gun up to the head of someone with diabetes..you cannot make him start producing insulin. But you sure as hell can stop that drunk from taking a drink.

Wow. That about says it all right there. Good 'un.

:buddies:

You cannot just stop having cancer or diabetes or whatever.

Yup.

It's a forum. A discussion forum. For discussing things, even arguing. Not so everyone holds hands and agrees.

:buddies:
So then, for discussion sake, are you of the mind that it has been classified a disease for its profitability or some other reason?

I think it really depends on what your definition of a "disease" is.

If you say that a disease is only something like leprosy or pneumonia, then alcoholism does not qualify. It's obviously not a germ or anything catching.

However, if you would consider things like OCD or Bipolar Disorder a disease, then I would argue that alcoholism falls in that category. In fact, I believe that I, myself, have a predisposition toward alcoholism. I say that "I believe" this, because I have never allowed myself to find out.

For a while, I avoided alcohol like a pox. Before that I used to drink a lot. A really whole lot. I never got to the point where I would wake up surrounded by empty bottles wondering what I did the night before - I never woke up with a dead hooker in my trunk and no idea how she got there - but I could see myself very easily descending in a spiral that ends with me waking up in an alley with trash stuck to my head by the dried remains of my own drunken vomit.

These days I allow myself to have a beer or two when I'm at a barbecue, or when I go out to dinner or something, but if I ever find myself wishing I was drunk, or fantasizing about being drunk, it's back to the teetotaler lifestyle for me. I'm terrified of becoming an alcholic, because I believe that after you hit a certain point, there's no stopping it.

I have no desire to test this theory.


Anyway - I say disease. IMO, it's a mental disease akin to OCD.

Anyway - I say disease. IMO, it's a mental disease akin to OCD.

An uncontrolled compulsion - I'll go for that. :yay:

You cannot just stop having cancer or diabetes or whatever.


Actually....

So then, for discussion sake, are you of the mind that it has been classified a disease for its profitability or some other reason?

I understand the argument that it is a disease. I just don't agree with it. That said, I further understand designating it as a disease with the intent and goal of getting treatment for it before it starts destroying your body and giving the body real diseases.

Are we better off with increased awareness of alcohol and the mental components of it, be what they may, due to the disease/behavior debate? I think so. I think understanding it, clearly, as behavior and the process of owning that behavior has come out of that debate.

The problem now, and my reasoning for the thread, is the implications for the new medical system and the desire to have it be free, the public option, and better accessibility. It's fine when an individual figures out how to pay for a months vacation at a clinic to dry out. When that becomes a public right, the economic implications should be apparent.

To me, this is like welfare; the intent is a helping hand but, it becomes a hand out. The acceptance of behavior as a disease, once the new health care system comes into being, will make SS and Medicare look like minor economic problems.

It could be the last straw and break the back of America and the ideas of freedom, and responsibility, that afforded us the opportunity to not hold people responsible.

Actually....

Depends on the type, Type 1 has nothing to do with being a fatty or diet.

Type 1 diabetes (also called insulin-dependent diabetes or juvenile diabetes) is caused by autoimmune destruction of the B cells of the pancreas which normally secrete insulin.

Depends on the type, Type 1 has nothing to do with being a fatty or diet.

Type 1 diabetes (also called insulin-dependent diabetes or juvenile diabetes) is caused by autoimmune destruction of the B cells of the pancreas which normally secrete insulin.

type 2 can also be found in otherwise healthy individuals. Her comment, however was in response to mine..and we were talking about sheer force of will.

Depends on the type, Type 1 has nothing to do with being a fatty or diet.

Type 1 diabetes (also called insulin-dependent diabetes or juvenile diabetes) is caused by autoimmune destruction of the B cells of the pancreas which normally secrete insulin.


Yeah - I'm well versed in diabeetus. I had it. As did (does) my father, his mother, her father.... My cousin has very aggressive Type 1. Everyone else I mentioned had type 2. I am the only one who has shaken it off, but it is most definitly gone.

Anyway, I got the gist of the argument. I was just being a smartass.

type 2 can also be found in otherwise healthy individuals. Her comment, however was in response to mine..and we were talking about sheer force of will.

Mine was in response to Toxick who appeared to be implying that you could just stop having diabetes.

Yeah - I'm well versed in diabeetus. I had it. As did (does) my father, his mother, her father.... My cousin has very aggressive Type 1. Everyone else I mentioned had type 2. I am the only one who has shaken it off, but it is most definitly gone.

Anyway, I got the gist of the argument. I was just being a smartass.

A good childhood friend of mine had type 1, terrible thing for a kid to have to deal with. :frown:

Mine was in response to Toxick who appeared to be implying that you could just stop having diabetes.

I know. I was helpin you out :howdy:

Wirelessly posted (Change we can believe in!: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.7) 320x240; VZW; Motorola-Q9c; Windows Mobile 6.0 Standard)

Alcoholism is a disease that is brought on by a choice. If someone doesn't drink, they will not become alcoholic. If they are predisposed to alcoholism and drink, they will likely develop the disease.

No different than 90% of type 2 diabetes. If they are predisposed to type 2 diabetes but never become overweight, that 90% will probably not develop the disease.

I voted other because I didn't see an catagory for Hobby.:buddies: