:coffee:

Coat Color Studies Aid Health Research, Breeding Choices

"The topic of coat color and coat patterns is of great interest to horse breeders. Color can substantially increase a horse's marketability. All else being equal, a buyer is often willing to pay more for a horse with an attractive color pattern. This has led to a wide variety of colors and patterns in many breeds and an increase in the number of breeders interested in including coat color in their breeding programs."

The Horse | Coat Color Studies Aid Health Research, Breeding Choices (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=14945&src=VW)

:coffee:

Unfortunately this leads to a lot of indiscriminate breeding *just* for color. People who don't know better will pay more for the pretty colored horse, reinforcing poor breeding practices :coffee: See FHOTD blog.

For the most part I think this is only interesting to color breeders. I do have favorites but would not choose color over conformation, athletic ability and manners.

It did say - all things being equal a buyer is more willing to pay more for color, which is absolutely true.

. I am not a "color" breeder but it seems to me that the American Creme Drafts and Cleveland Bays are actually named FOR their color, which would make them "color bred" right? Is/was that a bad thing? Nope people love them for the way they look.

A color gene -silver- has been linked to am ocular health disorder - Anterior Segmented Dysgenesis. Who would have guessed that would happen, since doubling up on colors didn't create true physical problems for other colors. So this experience makes color testing that much more important because that particular color gene can be completely hidden under the base colors red and brown, it only affects black.

I personally breed for a very specific type of strong gait. The body has to be built a certain way to achieve that gait, so form follows function. Therefore it is important to choose breeding stock that will compliment each other phenotypically to achieve it. A marketable color is icing on the cake, so adding genotype for color into the equasion makes that much easier to do

For the most part I think this is only interesting to color breeders. I do have favorites but would not choose color over conformation, athletic ability and manners.

Manners are very important, but I have seen a lot of well mannered mares and stallions produce an unruly foal.

Unfortunately this leads to a lot of indiscriminate breeding *just* for color. People who don't know better will pay more for the pretty colored horse, reinforcing poor breeding practices :coffee: See FHOTD blog.

Color should not be the sole objective of a breeding program. There are breeds that are considered by some “color breeds” for instance, Appaloosa, Buckskin, Champagne Horse, Cleveland Bay, Dominant Gray, Friesians, Norwegian Fjord Horses, Paint, Palomino, & Pinto. While some of these actually are color breeds (i.e. registered solely due to color), others are breeds with distinct physical characteristics and/or pedigrees that also usually have distinctive or colorful coats. They might be considered a color breed by some folks but technically they are a pedigree-based breed. Some think that the Rocky Mountain Horse is a color breed. It is a pedigree-based breed that put conformation, temperament and gait first. The RMH also have some of the most impressive color that I have ever seen. That is just a BONUS!

Breeders should/can breed horses responsibly (taking note of conformation) while still incorporating colors and patterns (following breed standards) into their herds to maintain or increase value of the horse. Understanding, color DNA is also very important when choosing to breed and should not go ignored by breeders.

The article states: “Production of horses with attractive coat color patterns is part of horse breeding culture and is prevalent within the industry. While breeding for color alone can sometimes be problematic (i.e.ASD, OLWS), many problems can be avoided by a combination of breeder education and continued research. “

We know this to be true especially with horses registered in the AQHA. Years ago, breeders didn’t understand the cream gene and its affect on the chestnut/sorrel, bay and black horse. Their understanding was so lacking that double dilutes weren’t even allowed to be registered until earlier this decade. What a shame. I wonder how many horses with otherwise good conformation, were put down because of their color. It just goes to show that staying ignorant in this area is not a good thing. People need to be educated about color as well as conformation, don’t you think?

A lot of folks on this forum are so quick to slam anyone that talks about color. Maybe people should consider the implications of ignoring “COLOR” when breeding. I think it is like going off half cocked. When some of us on the forum mention color, or spots, there is an implicit understanding, that you should ALWAYS consider CONFORMATION, and BREED STANDARDS. After all we are talking, presumably to other horse peeps, with knowledge in the area (or are at least having the basic skills to research it). EVERYONE with interest in breeding should be as informed and educated as possible, by doing the research in their breed and choosing the best possible breeding prospects for their situation. Adding a little color on top of that can only potentially increase the value of the offspring. With today’s economy pretty horses (good conformation) with pretty color typically sell far faster and for more money than their equally trained and equally pretty counterparts (of basic color).

In closing, the article states: “Additional knowledge about the genetic basis of equine coat color will enable better diagnostic and predictive tests for color and associated traits. The more that is learned about the horse genome, the more breeders can be assured that a particular mating will not produce an undesirable result. With an eye for quality stock and the implementation of rational and responsible genetic testing, there is no reason that a breeding operation cannot introduce new colors and patterns into a herd while maintaining diversity and herd health.”

:coffee:

Color and problems:killingme

http://forums.somd.com/horses/111042-hypp.html

Color and problems:killingme

http://forums.somd.com/horses/111042-hypp.html

HYPP isn't a color issue, but a muscular issue.....Breeding issue none the less.
So I guess I forgot that one.

GOOD POINT you make

or shall I say

IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!!!

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme



:whistle:

Color and problems:killingme

http://forums.somd.com/horses/111042-hypp.html

That was an interesting re-read, thanks for the reminder!

Does anyone know if CarefulOne ever made it to SOMD?

That was an interesting re-read, thanks for the reminder!

Does anyone know if CarefulOne ever made it to SOMD?
:lol:
Why would she move from California?

HYPP isn't a color issue, but a muscular issue.....Breeding issue none the less.
So I guess I forgot that one.

GOOD POINT you make

or shall I say

IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!!!

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme



:whistle:

Its a breeding and gene issue

the bump if you read it was taken over by a color breeder

Our breeding program is a color based breeding program... :coffee:

Its a breeding and gene issue

the bump if you read it was taken over by a color breeder

:confused:

Well then there are far more breeding and gene issues that still haven't been mentioned.

I was talking about the ones that came about and related to color!

But of course when breeding everything that would affect your breeding stock and potential foal should be taken into consideration!!

While it is off topic here are a few more:

So along with:
Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP)

Which typically affects those QH’s in the “Impressive” line.

there are:
Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA)

Glycogen branching enzyme deficiency (GBED)

Hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia (HERDA)

Junctional epidermolysis bullosa (JEB)

Neonatal Isoerythrolysis (NI)


I am sure there are many more. Some are breed specific some are not.
:coffee:

Our breeding program is a color based breeding program... :coffee:

:eyebrow:

:eyebrow:

Why are you raising an eyebrow?

Why are you raising an eyebrow?

:shrug:

What color?

:biggrin:

horse x zebra

:killingme

Colored Cowhorse Ranch - Genetic issues (http://www.coloredcowhorseranch.com/genetic_issues)

:shrug:

What color?

:biggrin:

Next year will be nothing but buckskins...:yahoo: (wait....one could be a grey, black or bay)

Next year will be nothing but buckskins...:yahoo: (wait....one could be a grey, black or bay)

Hmmmm...:coffee:... What breed?

The Horse | Animal Genetic Testing and Research Lab Benefits Horse Owners (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=14910&src=RA)

The babies are Quarter/Paint/Buckskin/and AWS. We do start with good mares...

There are other color breeders on this forum...Golden Venture being one. Max is pretty darn nice!

:really:

Soooo is that going to be a "PUREBRED APPENDIX" or some other variant of warmblood.

:roflmao:

I bet it will be a purty color tho!

:buddies:

:really:

Soooo is that going to be a "PUREBRED APPENDIX" or some other variant of warmblood.

:roflmao:

I bet it will be a purty color tho!

:buddies:

Yes...that is correct most are appendix crosses.

Question...before you blow into a full immitation of Fugly Horse of the Day...don't you believe that you can breed for color successfully?

Question...before you blow into a full immitation of Fugly Horse of the Day...don't you believe that you can breed for color successfully?

Sorry,
I was just pokin a little fun. JK
:howdy:

Breeding for color is easy.

Breeding, that includes a preferred color, starts with Conformation and Function (and hopefully follows breed standards).

YES, I believe that can be done successfully.
:coffee:

DISCLAIMER: There is not one perfect horse (one that is flawless) on this planet. They may seem so in our hearts, but reality is that it is not likely. As I have said( and probably many other people have too) If you breed a stallion with nice big feet and an awesome muscular build, and a somewhat ugly head with you near perfect mare with kinda tiny feet, and a beautiful refined face. You JUST MIGHT end up with ALL of those, not so desirable traits in a foal.

I take breeding very serious, and for you to poke fun puts you in the category of people that like to pass judgement without really looking at all sides. I take it you don't breed...and even fugly says that she doesn't want all people to stop breeding...just the indescriminate ones! If you have a Stallion of color, and breed with the intent to pass on that lovely color, be it silver/buckskin/tobiano/grey etc...color is part of your breeding program. I hate it when assumptions are made by individuals who dont focus on both sides of the article you presented. I actually really like the article, because it talks to standard for breeding. But when people pass judgement when you say you breed for color without even inquiring to other standards...well...that seems a bit shallow. Yes, our foals are eligible for many registries...yes, they are of color...BUT we don't breed anything we don't think will cross well. Then, when our foals don't measure up (genetics likes playing an occasional joke)...we still have great minded buckskins!

WOW!
:doh:
Ok. But I only poked GENTLE fun.
I take breeding very serious, and for you to poke fun puts you in the category of people that like to pass judgment without really looking at all sides.

I am sure your animals are all breed with the best intents. Who am I to say? I personally love color and am the first one to advocate for it whenever possible.

I certainly wasn’t poking fun to be mean or to pass judgment on you. I’ll leave that silliness to some of the other posters in this forum. I am not very good at that nor do I like seeing it done. I do look at all sides. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was not my intent. :huggy:

I take it you don't breed...and even fugly says that she doesn't want all people to stop breeding...just the indiscriminate ones!

“indiscriminate breeding *just* for color” NOT SOMETHING I AGREE WITH!

Do you really have a horse named fugly? I am not judging.:lmao:

If you have a Stallion of color, and breed with the intent to pass on that lovely color, be it silver/buckskin/tobiano/grey etc...color is part of your breeding program.

I agree it is part of your breeding program, just not the sole part.

I hate it when assumptions are made by individuals who don’t focus on both sides of the article you presented.

I agree!

I actually really like the article, because it talks to standard for breeding.

I agree!!

“only interesting to color breeders” NOT SOMETHING I AGREE WITH!
It should be of intrest to all breeders.

But when people pass judgment when you say you breed for color without even inquiring to other standards...well...that seems a bit shallow.

I agree!!!

Yes, our foals are eligible for many registries...yes, they are of color...BUT we don't breed anything we don't think will cross well. Then, when our foals don't measure up (genetics likes playing an occasional joke)...we still have great minded buckskins!

AGAIN, I MUST AGREE!!!!

I think breeders should consider color whenever possible.

I meant for the article to show those who always slam people that INCLUDE COLOR in their breeding program. Labeling them as color breeders (implying that that is ALL they care about) negating the fact that they breed for conformation and function first.

Conformation and function is why the Appendix came about. The best of both worlds. I am not a big fan of thoroughbreds, but I like to watch their athletic ability. Some people on this forum think (and have posted) that if the horse isn’t showing and placing then it shouldn’t be bred. I don't agree with that either. If someone mentions color then some of these folks start making judgment statements about breeding walk-rock-quarter-alosa-who knows what horse (somethinglike that). I never see thoroughbred or warmblood in that phrase.
:whistle:

It's as if implying that walk-rock-quarter-alosa in any or all parts are inferior.

My poking fun didn't seem harsh when I wrote it, but you took it badly, so
again my apologies.:flowers::smooch:

The babies are Quarter/Paint/Buckskin/and AWS. We do start with good mares...

AWS isn't that a warmblood registry?

It did say - all things being equal a buyer is more willing to pay more for color, which is absolutely true.

. I am not a "color" breeder but it seems to me that the American Creme Drafts and Cleveland Bays are actually named FOR their color, which would make them "color bred" right? Is/was that a bad thing? Nope people love them for the way they look.

A color gene -silver- has been linked to am ocular health disorder - Anterior Segmented Dysgenesis. Who would have guessed that would happen, since doubling up on colors didn't create true physical problems for other colors. So this experience makes color testing that much more important because that particular color gene can be completely hidden under the base colors red and brown, it only affects black.

I personally breed for a very specific type of strong gait. The body has to be built a certain way to achieve that gait, so form follows function. Therefore it is important to choose breeding stock that will compliment each other phenotypically to achieve it. A marketable color is icing on the cake, so adding genotype for color into the equasion makes that much easier to do

Um, no. American Cream Drafts are not a color breed. Sorry. Just like American Quarter Horses aren't all racehorses. American Cream Drafts are a specific genetic breed. If you cross an American Cream with another draft breed if that horse is cream it can be registered as Appendix but, that is only because the breed is endangered. Off spring of that appendix can only be registered if bred back to a full American Cream Draft. ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.

Cleveland Bay is just one name for the oldest horse breed in Britain. They used to have markings similar to duns with dorsal stripes and zebra stripes. As with other breeds (example height of white markings on QH legs) some color preferences have been noted. For example bright bay is more desirable than dark bay.

This same preference is seen in many breeds but it doesn't make for a color registry. Friesian's are only black. Percherons while registerable in any solid color are most desired in black with no white or a white star. There are occasional chestnut and bay percherons and percherons with blazes and socks. But, because those are not desired that horse isn't as likely to go on to show career and subsequently the breeding shed.

Shoot, I had to remove a link from here because it's not a public thread. :( But we've had plenty of discussion regarding breeding horses of color in which you asked me if I was going to keep a 1 week old horse a stallion because of his color. And then you tried to argue with me about it. I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

The babies are Quarter/Paint/Buckskin/and AWS. We do start with good mares...

I've met AppendixQH's stallion, some of her mares, and I've ridden one of her babies. They are VERY nice horses. She didn't buy the stallion as a weanling because of his color and start breeding him as soon as he was physically able. She bought a well experienced, proven stallion and has bred him to her lovely mares.

i'd have to agree with phyx when the first thing you say about your stallion is that there is no silver dapple gene

http://www.briesrottweilers.com/horses/hondo.pdf

i'd have to agree with phyx when the first thing you say about your stallion is that there is no silver dapple gene

http://www.briesrottweilers.com/horses/hondo.pdf

It is important in the Rocky Mountain Breed (as well in other breeds that carry the silver gene) to know if a prospect stallion carries silver and how many copies of the gene he carries due to potential issues with ASD. It is also important to know if the mare carries silver and how many copies. I have a sorrel Rocky Mare that is registered silver bay. The breeders (Big time Breeder mind you) never had this mare color tested. If they had, they would have found out that she is a red/sorrel horse that carries silver, not a bay horse with silver. Silver doesn't affect red horses. My mare happens to have a flaxen mane as well. Looking at her, it is impossible to KNOW what her color DNA is. Point is in over the years, conversing with many big breeders they usually don’t color test their animals. There is still a lot to learn about ASD and how it is linked with the silver gene. Until we know more about ASD, responsible owners test their animals for the silver gene to identify how many copies of the gene they carry. That way you can safely make responsible decisions when breeding. HappyAppy tests all of her animals, so she knows what she has. But a lot of folks that would potentially come to her to breed to her stallion may not know. I see no problem with her making the statement that her stallion does not carry silver. There are a lot of double sliver mares out there that are looking for a stallion that doesn't carry the silver gene. ALSO, her stallion is a very nice boy, and very well put together. Her young daughter rides him around bareback all the time and he is ALWAYS quite the gentleman.
:coffee:

I've met AppendixQH's stallion, some of her mares, and I've ridden one of her babies. They are VERY nice horses. She didn't buy the stallion as a weanling because of his color and start breeding him as soon as he was physically able. She bought a well experienced, proven stallion and has bred him to her lovely mares.

Awww! Thanks Phyx! It is quite impressive when two aged stallions can be stalled next to each other calmly and quietly. And both can be ridden and handled like geldings!

And yes...country lady, we cross our stallion on all types of mares, as he is the most versatile producer I have ever seen. If crossed on a TB, the foals are AQHA(appendix), APHA, AWS,ABRA,IBHA registration eligible. Yes, he is AWS inspected as well. Most Appendix horses are eligible for AWS. So yes...we cross to bring color and versatility on good examples of different breeds. HOWEVER, we will not breed to just any breed of mare.

It seems you are trying to ping on breeders (especially color based breeders) with some of the posts you have made...

Awww! Thanks Phyx! It is quite impressive when two aged stallions can be stalled next to each other calmly and quietly. And both can be ridden and handled like geldings!

And yes...country lady, we cross our stallion on all types of mares, as he is the most versatile producer I have ever seen. If crossed on a TB, the foals are AQHA(appendix), APHA, AWS,ABRA,IBHA registration eligible. Yes, he is AWS inspected as well. Most Appendix horses are eligible for AWS. So yes...we cross to bring color and versatility on good examples of different breeds. HOWEVER, we will not breed to just any breed of mare.

It seems you are trying to ping on breeders (especially color based breeders) with some of the posts you have made...

On the contrary, not pinging on breeders of any type color based or pedigree based or function based. It seems as though others here do that. I think that there are a lot of misconceptions out there with regard to breeds that also have color. As I said as soon as you mention color,....people flip. My purpose is to educate, and show that there is nothing wrong with haveing conformation and color. But some of the folks on here all ready know it all. Hard to educate closed minded folks. :nerd:

On the contrary, not pinging on breeders of any type color based or pedigree based or function based. It seems as though others here do that. I think that there are a lot of misconceptions out there with regard to breeds that also have color. As I said as soon as you mention color,....people flip. My purpose is to educate, and show that there is nothing wrong with haveing conformation and color. But some of the folks on here all ready know it all. Hard to educate closed minded folks. :nerd:

Agree! Some are "all ready know it all" know-it-alls and very hard to educate. Poopy-heads! :smile:

As I said as soon as you mention color,....people flip.

Yes...in fact...I said I bred for color...you gave me the eyebrow.:coffee:

It is important in the Rocky Mountain Breed (as well in other breeds that carry the silver gene) to know if a prospect stallion carries silver and how many copies of the gene he carries due to potential issues with ASD. It is also important to know if the mare carries silver and how many copies. I have a sorrel Rocky Mare that is registered silver bay. The breeders (Big time Breeder mind you) never had this mare color tested. If they had, they would have found out that she is a red/sorrel horse that carries silver, not a bay horse with silver. Silver doesn't affect red horses. My mare happens to have a flaxen mane as well. Looking at her, it is impossible to KNOW what her color DNA is. Point is in over the years, conversing with many big breeders they usually don’t color test their animals. There is still a lot to learn about ASD and how it is linked with the silver gene. Until we know more about ASD, responsible owners test their animals for the silver gene to identify how many copies of the gene they carry. That way you can safely make responsible decisions when breeding. HappyAppy tests all of her animals, so she knows what she has. But a lot of folks that would potentially come to her to breed to her stallion may not know. I see no problem with her making the statement that her stallion does not carry silver. There are a lot of double sliver mares out there that are looking for a stallion that doesn't carry the silver gene. ALSO, her stallion is a very nice boy, and very well put together. Her young daughter rides him around bareback all the time and he is ALWAYS quite the gentleman.
:coffee:

:1bdz: blah blah blah = its about color and the fact he has balls.......

Poopy head and balls...real mature guys :eyebrow: :evil:

:1bdz: blah blah blah = its about color and the fact he has balls.......
Have you ever once spoken directly to me about my breeding program in person rather than on a forum?

Have you seen my stallion, stud colt and brood mare bands for each? Yes, I have two because I also have a second stud colt who will have his own band due to their structure, gait and yes, their color. Each stud has his own band of mares as a result of hours and hours of pedigree and gait research and what i want to achieve in the foals I raise train then sell from each.

Do you have a clue about gaits, how they feel and the structure related each one? Are you a certified examiner for ANY breed?

When you or anyone else who has posted on here, has gained adequate knowledge about any breed that you take the test, pass and become an examiner for it, then and only then can you look at my breeding animals and have a valid opinion.

Oh and did i mention that I already am an examiner for the Kentucky Mountain Saddle Horse Association, and will be flying out to take the exam for the Rocky Mountain Horse Association when they offer another opportunity? Guess you didn't see that on my website.

Oh and as a little side note, the co-owner of a mare owned with the person who has written THE book on Rockies has chosen that stallion of mine out of all the registered Rockies in the country to sire her next foal, confirmed as arriving on March 2010. Oh happy day!

just letting you know what it looks like from an outsider checking you out..........

ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.
And then you tried to argue with me about it. I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

I'm sorry not being familiar with your breed, I don't know what a JEB test is.

Do they have to pass an exam to determine if they have appropriate conformation, temperament and gait to be allowed to even produce fully registered offspring in addition to DNA parentage testing?

DNA PARENTAGE testing is the MINIMUM standard Rockies have to meet in order to produce registerable offspring. They are REQUIRED to be temperament and gait tested when they reach breeding age in order to be certified to breed at all.

I went to a great deal of trouble choosing my breeding animals, and I color test so i can register my foals appropriately, and so i know silver status on foals and adults to lessen the possibility of producing an inheritied ocular disorder OR a lesser marketable color because of the limited number of foals I have. It's called having your cake and eating it too.

FYI Rockies are also still on the endangered watch list and will remain there because of the rigid standards to allow registered offspring, which i don't see changing any time soon.

Please see my reply to Devine for additional comments TYVM and have a great day. :howdy:

just letting you know what it looks like from an outsider checking you out..........

An outsider having NO interest or desire to learn about the breed but only the need to make judgements and post opinions fully intended to be degrading on a public forum. But hey, we all have an opinion eh? Thanks for sharing it.

Yes...in fact...I said I bred for color...you gave me the eyebrow.:coffee:

That eyebrow was really more like the REALLY eyebrow. I forgot they were different. Sorry. I guess when you posted; I wasn't sure what your take was on the issue. From some of the other posts you have made on other threads, I halfway expected you to be joking. I was surprised to hear that " I breed for color" coming from you.

I have never met you in person nor have I met any of your animals. I don't pretend to pass judgment on something that I have no firsthand knowledge of.

It is good that you are breeding for color and function, and that there are reasons backing your breeding decisions. It is great that your animals have a chance to be registered with some of the mentioned registries. You have a purpose and that is very important. Personally I think registry is important, but with pedigree, registry, conformation, temperament, color, (and in the case of the Rocky Mountain Breed, GAIT), you can’t go wrong.

I agree that there are a lot of subpar breeding outfits out there with sparse knowledge of the breed they are working with. I also agree that there are a lot of good quality animals out there that are foundation bred and should have been registered, but due to poor book keeping or breeders sudden death, mismanagement of heard or many other reasons, are not registered and are sold as unregisterable. Pity! I think if all breeds were to dna type (not just for color) there would be a chance to have these animals registered and they wouldn't end up at the slaughter houses unnecessarily. And if all registries would certify their registered animals for breeding purposes, (i.e. making sure they are a good representation of the breed to be allowed to breed) that would help to rectify a lot of issues concerning unwanted horse.
:coffee:

Um, no. American Cream Drafts are not a color breed. Sorry. Just like American Quarter Horses aren't all racehorses. American Cream Drafts are a specific genetic breed. If you cross an American Cream with another draft breed if that horse is cream it can be registered as Appendix but, that is only because the breed is endangered. Off spring of that appendix can only be registered if bred back to a full American Cream Draft. ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.

Cleveland Bay is just one name for the oldest horse breed in Britain. They used to have markings similar to duns with dorsal stripes and zebra stripes. As with other breeds (example height of white markings on QH legs) some color preferences have been noted. For example bright bay is more desirable than dark bay.

This same preference is seen in many breeds but it doesn't make for a color registry. Friesian's are only black. Percherons while registerable in any solid color are most desired in black with no white or a white star. There are occasional chestnut and bay percherons and percherons with blazes and socks. But, because those are not desired that horse isn't as likely to go on to show career and subsequently the breeding shed.

Shoot, I had to remove a link from here because it's not a public thread. :( But we've had plenty of discussion regarding breeding horses of color in which you asked me if I was going to keep a 1 week old horse a stallion because of his color. And then you tried to argue with me about it. I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

ACDHA - American Cream Draft Horse Assoc. (http://www.acdha.org/)

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America - Cleveland Bay Standard of Points (http://www.clevelandbay.org/the-breed/standards.html)

[QUOTE=happyappygirl;3992970]

I went to a great deal of trouble choosing my breeding animals, and I color test so i can register my foals appropriately, and so i know silver status on foals and adults to lessen the possibility of producing an inheritied ocular disorder OR a lesser marketable color because of the limited number of foals I have. It's called having your cake and eating it too.
QUOTE]


so the purpose of breeding a rockie to an appaloosa is??......are your rockies trail quality or show quality?.......isn't going to competitions with your horses a way to compare quality within the breed?.......how have your horses done in competition?

ACDHA - American Cream Draft Horse Assoc. (http://www.acdha.org/)

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America - Cleveland Bay Standard of Points (http://www.clevelandbay.org/the-breed/standards.html)

Yes, I see that you can still Google but, did you have a point?

so the purpose of breeding a rockie to an appaloosa is??......are your rockies trail quality or show quality?.......isn't going to competitions with your horses a way to compare quality within the breed?.......how have your horses done in competition?
Answer to # 1 breeding a Rocky to a with a foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa is the same answer as the WALKALOOSA people give, gait and color. It was done once, the mare is foundation bred, carries the LP (appy) spotting gene and is a heavy sabino carrier (paint spots), but the filly doesn't have spots of any sort, she's just a beautiful peachy color, who is very, very well put together, and WILL shuffle. Did you know that foundation appy's shuffle?

Answer to # 2 is NO i do NOT show my horses because I do not sell horses to be shown. Period. I have no interest in an arena horse or that type of movement/temperament. Show rockies have to be much hotter, have more lift (in front) and are more forward just to get noticed. Who wants that in a trail horse?? 90% of the people who want these horses, want trail companions. All my pedigrees are foundation, the best in the country.

We compete in trail competitions when we can. Hondo has placed in the top 3 as has the the young one we put under saddle last year, and prior to being sold. We compete when time and distance allow. I'll be riding Hondo and two daughters will be riding geldings I've raised and put under saddle in the SMTR trail competition this month.

I breed raise and train trail companions who are quiet, good minded and smooth. Show lines tend towards more refinement, animation and lift then a trail horse needs, so i choose pedigrees which give me what i want in our stock. Larger size, quieter temperament an overall more easy going animal - like my stallion and stud colt.

The proof is in the pudding. The animals we raise and train are ridden everywhere. Local vets love them because they are the quietest horses they see in practice, even when very young, the people we ride with love them and are amazed at how quiet they are, and most importantly, the owners love them because they are the kindest most easily handled, manageable horses available.

Next year several we bred will be undersaddle/certified and none which will be for sale. I bred them specifically to be added into our breeding herd, and they will reflect the choices we've made, doing it proudly.

"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???

I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme

Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.

"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???

I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme

Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.
A peanut pusher (roller) is the poll lower than the withers when moving forward. It has nothing to do with the gait the animal is in.

Shuffling is "gaited". It's a lateral movement (some people call it "pacey" when they see it) and its not allowed in the show ring (or encouraged by today's show Appy standards). ALL original Appys were shufflers, that gait is what kept the Nez Pierce Indians on their ponies back. When people started breeding them to be shown, they bred that particular gait out, by using QHs and TBs.

Foundation bred Aps still carry shuffling the gene, and can do it. A shuffle is similar to a running walk like most Walking horses do (there are racking walkers but they're in the minority-and another topic all together). They're hard to find...and EXPENSIVE.

The first Appy mare I bought in foal was 97% foundation bred, bred to an 87% foundation bred Ap stallion, and the colt she had DOES indeed shuffle as a 5 y/o gelding. I've always been interested in gaited horses, I just happen to prefer a saddle rack over a running walk or a shuffle.

We bred the Ap mare to a Rocky stallion because hubby wanted something gaited with an Appy blanket, and she's foundation bred so we knew she carried gait. She was his mare, not mine, he made that choice.

Hottness of a Rocky? :lol: Not mine.

The movement of the "indian shuffle" is lateral not diagonal like the trot but it's a four beat gait so it's not really a pace. When the Spanish came to American they brought the horse flesh including the gaited precursors to the Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, Mangalarga Marchador and other *spanish* gaited breeds. So, the gait was bred into the Appaloosa breed. Just like crossing any breed with a gaited breed you're likely to get a bastardized version of the gait with a possibility of getting a good gait.

(Not arguing with anyone. Just giving some more information. My first horse was an Appaloosa. And, in case it's not obvious yet I research everything.)

The movement of the "indian shuffle" is lateral not diagonal like the trot but it's a four beat gait so it's not really a pace. When the Spanish came to American they brought the horse flesh including the gaited precursors to the Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, Mangalarga Marchador and other *spanish* gaited breeds. So, the gait was bred into the Appaloosa breed. Just like crossing any breed with a gaited breed you're likely to get a bastardized version of the gait with a possibility of getting a good gait.

Interesting, I'd never heard of this before. Thanks for the explanation!

Interesting, I'd never heard of this before. Thanks for the explanation!

Yeah, 9.9 out of 10 people believe, correctly, that the shuffle is a fault. There are breed standards for a reason. Just like with the aqha halter horses. No 1100+ pd horse should wear 00 shoes but people are idiots.

Answer to # 1 breeding a Rocky to a with a foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa is the same answer as the WALKALOOSA people give, gait and color. It was done once, the mare is foundation bred, carries the LP (appy) spotting gene and is a heavy sabino carrier (paint spots), but the filly doesn't have spots of any sort, she's just a beautiful peachy color, who is very, very well put together, and WILL shuffle. Did you know that foundation appy's shuffle?

Answer to # 2 is NO i do NOT show my horses because I do not sell horses to be shown. Period. I have no interest in an arena horse or that type of movement/temperament. Show rockies have to be much hotter, have more lift (in front) and are more forward just to get noticed. Who wants that in a trail horse?? 90% of the people who want these horses, want trail companions. All my pedigrees are foundation, the best in the country.

We compete in trail competitions when we can. Hondo has placed in the top 3 as has the the young one we put under saddle last year, and prior to being sold. We compete when time and distance allow. I'll be riding Hondo and two daughters will be riding geldings I've raised and put under saddle in the SMTR trail competition this month.

I breed raise and train trail companions who are quiet, good minded and smooth. Show lines tend towards more refinement, animation and lift then a trail horse needs, so i choose pedigrees which give me what i want in our stock. Larger size, quieter temperament an overall more easy going animal - like my stallion and stud colt.

The proof is in the pudding. The animals we raise and train are ridden everywhere. Local vets love them because they are the quietest horses they see in practice, even when very young, the people we ride with love them and are amazed at how quiet they are, and most importantly, the owners love them because they are the kindest most easily handled, manageable horses available.

Next year several we bred will be undersaddle/certified and none which will be for sale. I bred them specifically to be added into our breeding herd, and they will reflect the choices we've made, doing it proudly.

I always thought that horses that could not perform 100% in show or competition were deamed back yard family or trail horses.

found this to be an interesting read...I did not write it..

Irresponsible Breeder’s List Of Excuses

1. When called out for bad breeding practices either in person or on an online forum, ALWAYS claim that you have been doing it for an extended period of time (generally over 5 years)/people love your horses/you breed ‘quality’.

2. Point out that you know a lot of people who breed horses just like you do. (Do so as if this makes you morally justified.)

3. Claim that “snobby show breeders” are only criticizing you because they are snobs/are jealous/are just mean. No way could they actually know what they’re talking about.

4. Claim that your horses go back to a famous ancestor. Never mind that the ancestor is in the 7th generation and the rest of the horses have all done nothing but reproduce like rabbits. Nevermind that they bear absolutely NO resemblance to aforementioned ancestor. Note, however, that they ARE a pretty color/foundation eligible/have flashy markings/have a surplus of hair/are shiny.

5. Claim that you are just trying to produce good ‘family horses’, therefore good ‘family horses’ are all you need for breeding.

6. When asked about HERDA, HYPP, OLWS or DSLD, enthusiastically point out that none of your horses show any outward signs of the disease and their parents/grandparents/siblings/aunts/uncles/cousins didn’t either, so they don’t require testing.

7. Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin/would make breeding impossible to afford. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed horses and the lack of ‘registry interference’.

8. Confidently assure worried rescuers that no horse you produce, or any of their get or grand get or great-grandget will end up in rescues or on dinner plates or in dogfood bowls because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they’d like a foal from your breeding program.

9. Point out that you don’t need championships or working titles for your horses because you are breeding for temperament and your horses are really sweet.

10. Silence those annoying people who ask about your animals HERDA/HYPP/Fill-In-The-Blank health status by assuring them that buyers can return any afflicted foals and you will replace it with a breed-back for the mare/another foal of the same lineage.

11. If your breed or line is rare (or you have a “rare” color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show or prove your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this “rare” breed/color/line.

12. No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you’ve been breeding for a long time (see #1). Point to the hundreds of foals you’ve pumped out/sold/traded/ridden over the years as proof.

13. If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your mare because how else are you going to learn how to breed/experience foaling?

14. Assure everyone that your horse does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at the feed store/a local show/Horsetopia/the vet’s office/a friend that your horse is a perfect example of the breed.

15. Always remember that “rare” colors, oversized or undersized horses, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn’t think so is obviously not in tune with their customers’ wishes.

16. Claim that your horses are better because they are not inbred and are an ‘outcross’ to popular lines, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed horse. If breeding cross-breeds, always point to “hybrid vigor” as proof of your horse’s superiority.

17. Assure everyone that your foals will not end up in rescues or slaughter houses because they are cute and well-mannered.

18. Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in rescues or slaughter houses, therefore your foals will never end up in these places.

19. If asked why you think your horses are breeding quality, point out that they have great ‘confirmation’ and/or a pretty color and a notable ancestor. Extra points awarded for using the term ‘Foundation’. Double Extra points if they are registered with the Blue Eyed Horse Association, American Grade Horse Registry, American Trail Horse Association or any color-only association. A crap-breeding Trifecta if that is their primary registration.

20. If you sell a lame or sick foal, always blame the new owners for making it lame or sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet.

21. If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail. Or, if you’re a moderator on the forum, lock or remove the thread. Extra points if you ban the poster who proved you wrong.

22. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to “get a life.” or to “stop being such a snob” or that you are successful breeders and know what you’re doing.

love it!!! haha

AMEN!! That really is a great list! A little funny, but very very true. I think it is great when you can breed great minded horses with the intent of being able to show them in their respective breed shows, and if they don't make it there then they can make some great family or trail mounts.

found this to be an interesting read...I did not write it..

Irresponsible Breeder’s List Of Excuses

1. When called out for bad breeding practices either in person or on an online forum, ALWAYS claim that you have been doing it for an extended period of time (generally over 5 years)/people love your horses/you breed ‘quality’.

2. Point out that you know a lot of people who breed horses just like you do. (Do so as if this makes you morally justified.)

3. Claim that “snobby show breeders” are only criticizing you because they are snobs/are jealous/are just mean. No way could they actually know what they’re talking about.


That is fabulous! Sums it up very nicely.

Gee I know some breeders like that....:lalala:

I just want to make a comment about the showing aspect. I don't raise or show horses, but I do raise (and used to show) sheep. Showing a breed of animal tends to exploit the breed and you can end up with the "same" breed of animal that has totally different characteristics than what you started out with. Take sheep for example. Many market breeds of sheep have been totally changed for the worse in order to win in the show ring. If you take a ribbon-winning Suffolk and try to put it out on pasture it would waste away to nothing. They've been bred to look tubey (long and lean) so their bodies cannot even handle living on forage like sheep are meant to do. No commercial sheep producer (or even someone wanting to raise sheep for their own use) would want sheep like that.

Some other breeds have been cross bred so much because judges starting placing taller animals. Some champion show breeds (like Romneys) are so totally crossbred it's not even funny.

Judges rule the breeding/showing world, and that's pathetic to me. Look at quarter horses. Some of the champion halter winners look ridiculous!

I don't give a darn if someone wins in the show ring. The proof is in the pudding. If you raise an animal that performs well for what you want, that's all that matters. Of course, conformation is very important still.

I always thought that horses that could not perform 100% in show or competition were deamed back yard family or trail horses.
Oh.....I know what thought - thought......

Oh.....I know what thought - thought......

my thought was retired show horses, whats yours?

Show Rockies overall have a higher lift, less bone strength and substance, smaller size and hotter temperaments. Who wants those qualities in a trail mount?

People who want steady eddie trail mounts of any breed do NOT go to a show or show stock to purchase them. Form follows function. Bottom line.

Actions speak louder than words when people who represent the most knowledgable in the breed (Ie: those who wrote THE book on it) choose MY stallion over the hundreds of others available in the country for their (confirmed) 2010 foal. The proof is in the pudding.

When the owner of any other stallion represented or in the click on this forum can say that...Come talk to me. Until then....talk into the hand, 'cause the ear ain't listening.

my thought was retired show horses, whats yours?
Thought thought he farted.......but he didn't.

Thought thought he farted.......but he didn't.

There are plenty of retired show horses, that have great breeding and are quiet to be someones family horse trail horse.

So what you are saying are rockies are like all the other gaited horses. except the ones you breed?

There are plenty of retired show horses, that have great breeding and are quiet to be someones family horse trail horse.

So what you are saying are rockies are like all the other gaited horses. except the ones you breed?

I think she's saying something like this:

9. Point out that you don’t need championships or working titles for your horses because you are breeding for temperament and your horses are really sweet.

There are plenty of retired show horses, that have great breeding and are quiet to be someones family horse trail horse.

So what you are saying are rockies are like all the other gaited horses. except the ones you breed?
:confused:

Good lord Robin.....I have no idea where what you say comes from. None what so ever.
Have you visited my horses?
Have you (or any one of you) ridden with me or ridden one of mine?
Why not, for once, gather and express an opinion based on something factual rather than making shiat up....Or should I say...its your story tell it any way you want to.

Sorry but this crap just gets old after a while. I guess while you're picking at me you're leaving someone else alone. :yay: Glad i can be of assistance.

I think she's saying something like this:

9. Point out that you don’t need championships or working titles for your horses because you are breeding for temperament and your horses are really sweet.
I think the actions of other well respected, top level breeders and very happy owners speaks loud and clear for my choice in a foundation stallion and young stock chosen to raise train and resell. But thanks for pointing it out again anyways. :yay:

:confused:

Good lord Robin.....I have no idea where what you say comes from. None what so ever.
Have you visited my horses?
Have you (or any one of you) ridden with me or ridden one of mine?
Why not, for once, gather and express an opinion based on something factual rather than making shiat up....Or should I say...its your story tell it any way you want to.

Sorry but this crap just gets old after a while. I guess while you're picking at me you're leaving someone else alone. :yay: Glad i can be of assistance.

No I have not had the opportunity to ride with you. Or to experience your horses in action.

I am not making {stuff} up. Most Show horse owners retire a mount to trail riding and becoming a family horse after their show career. Where is this a lie??????

YouTube - 10 yo AQHA Gelding - Retired Show Horse - Quiet & Cute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI3xpwrtY-o)
Retired Show Mare In Need of Good Home - Horses For Sale at Cowboy.com (http://www.cowboy.com/index.php?nav=listing&id=32047)

No I have not had the opportunity to ride with you. Or to experience your horses in action.
I am not making {stuff} up. Most Show horse owners retire a mount to trail riding and becoming a family horse after their show career. Where is this a lie??????

OK…I apologize for the misinterpretation, perhaps not “lies” (which is your word not mine). Maybe….assumptions drawn from zero first hand knowledge would be the term I’m looking for.

I think "most" show horses would be a bit of a stretch but here goes.

Your first example a QH... Quote:
"He is priced low because he has arthritis. He is not lame but will be occasionally stiff, the more often he is ridden the better he moves. He has a awesome jog but his lope is not what it use to be."

He's only TEN!! Wonder when he was "retired"?

Your second example an Arab... Quote:
“is an older Arabian that has grown better with age. She would prefer to be in an arena though I have taken her on trails as long as there are other horses she doesn't mind going and loves to be the leader.”

Translation – She’s spooky, jiggy, herd bound and barn sour as all get out. Price 400.00.

Were they the best retirees to good trail homes you could find?? :faint: I think my idea of a good trail horse is different from yours. maybe that's where I got this whole breeding thing completely wrong. :doh:

OK…I apologize for the misinterpretation, perhaps not “lies” (which is your word not mine). Maybe….assumptions drawn from zero first hand knowledge would be the term I’m looking for.

I think "most" show horses would be a bit of a stretch but here goes.

Your first example a QH... Quote:
"He is priced low because he has arthritis. He is not lame but will be occasionally stiff, the more often he is ridden the better he moves. He has a awesome jog but his lope is not what it use to be."

He's only TEN!! Wonder when he was "retired"?

Your second example an Arab... Quote:
“is an older Arabian that has grown better with age. She would prefer to be in an arena though I have taken her on trails as long as there are other horses she doesn't mind going and loves to be the leader.”

Translation – She’s spooky, jiggy, herd bound and barn sour as all get out. Price 400.00.

Were they the best retirees to good trail homes you could find?? :faint: I think my idea of a good trail horse is different from yours. maybe that's where I got this whole breeding thing completely wrong. :doh:

Happy I am just saying most folks retire their horses from show careers to family -trail homes. Like you I could probably GOOGLE quite a few. But this is the way it generally has been. I did not read the ads just pointed out what some do and have done. Some free lease them for life of the animal. I am glad you found your nitch in the breeding community. You have done your research and your putting your proof in the Chocolate pudding. Time will tell if you have brought back this breed from extinction. Great Mission. I know someone that is doing so with the Tiger Horse Breed. Kudos to both of you.

:confused:

Good lord Robin.....I have no idea where what you say comes from. None what so ever.
Have you visited my horses?
Have you (or any one of you) ridden with me or ridden one of mine?
Why not, for once, gather and express an opinion based on something factual rather than making shiat up....Or should I say...its your story tell it any way you want to.

Sorry but this crap just gets old after a while. I guess while you're picking at me you're leaving someone else alone. :yay: Glad i can be of assistance.

I have and you were on the ground..... I have nothing against you or your breeding practices. But hearing through the grapevine..Your just a back yard type breeder....I have seen your horses out on public rides and if I were looking at the breed to buy. I would run. You do not present your horses in the manner you speak of them...jmo...

Wow...this is better than Jerry Springer.

I think what Robin is getting at is that it is irresponsible to breed for a sub-par breed standard, under the cloak of breeding for a "family horse". There are plenty of people breeding for breed standards, quiet dispositions, and desirable traits, and the horses that fall short of making the show arena are turned into family horses/trail horses...or they do show then retire to make family and show horses. If you are breeding for the family/trail horse, and your horse falls short of expectations....well then you can make some people in France very happy! :yum: If you aren't striving to attain breed standards (not fads, or freakish extremes), and aren't selective in the mares you allow to breed to your stallion (ie.giving discounts to anything that isn't your stallions breed), then you are part of the back-yard breeding problem.

And since we are throwing out quotes, read my old one - "most horse people have no business raising rabbits let alone horses"

Back to my cave. Muahahahaha

Wow...this is better than Jerry Springer.

I think what Robin is getting at is that it is irresponsible to breed for a sub-par breed standard, under the cloak of breeding for a "family horse". There are plenty of people breeding for breed standards, quiet dispositions, and desirable traits, and the horses that fall short of making the show arena are turned into family horses/trail horses...or they do show then retire to make family and show horses. If you are breeding for the family/trail horse, and your horse falls short of expectations....well then you can make some people in France very happy! :yum: If you aren't striving to attain breed standards (not fads, or freakish extremes), and aren't selective in the mares you allow to breed to your stallion (ie.giving discounts to anything that isn't your stallions breed), then you are part of the back-yard breeding problem.

And since we are throwing out quotes, read my old one - "most horse people have no business raising rabbits let alone horses"

Back to my cave. Muahahahaha
Very well said! You may come out of the cave more often if you wish. Seems you are quite sensible.

Wow...this is better than Jerry Springer.

I think what Robin is getting at is that it is irresponsible to breed for a sub-par breed standard, under the cloak of breeding for a "family horse". There are plenty of people breeding for breed standards, quiet dispositions, and desirable traits, and the horses that fall short of making the show arena are turned into family horses/trail horses...or they do show then retire to make family and show horses. If you are breeding for the family/trail horse, and your horse falls short of expectations....well then you can make some people in France very happy! :yum: If you aren't striving to attain breed standards (not fads, or freakish extremes), and aren't selective in the mares you allow to breed to your stallion (ie.giving discounts to anything that isn't your stallions breed), then you are part of the back-yard breeding problem.

And since we are throwing out quotes, read my old one - "most horse people have no business raising rabbits let alone horses"

Back to my cave. Muahahahaha
Oh my god! I don't know who you are but I love you!! Brilliant post.

I have and you were on the ground..... I have nothing against you or your breeding practices. But hearing through the grapevine..Your just a back yard type breeder....I have seen your horses out on public rides and if I were looking at the breed to buy. I would run. You do not present your horses in the manner you speak of them...jmo...

is that particular mare, which you saw me ride once (which was NOT a public ride) when i was evaluating her for a possible purchase, even in my breeding program or was she purchased by me after that evaluation ride and I don't about know it? WOW...its amazing how much you know about my horses.

And HOW many times have we actually ridden together both public and private? go ahead, enlighten me since I seem to have forgotten. And which horse did i ride?

And what happend to make you feel this way about my horse(s)? Funny I've been on every single ride the local club has had for the last 3+ years, and hundreds of other rides with friends, and don't remember riding with you at any one of them, nor have you ever even been to either of my places yet you speak with such authority. I'm truely in awe.

Oh and there goes that lack of first hand knowledge through the grapevine thing again...its amazing how much people know about how things which they have no experience actually work.

Why don't you tell everyone what your real problem is Ming?
A decision that was made which I had nothing to do with might be the answer?
Sour grapes perhaps?

I've seen a couple of your products, not at your farm. although very quiet, he is very small boned, very small heart-girth for his height, ewe necked, rump-high, unfortunate little thing. with huge white around his eyes, he just isn't too pretty, appy colored, not gaited. the other one is nicer in color, a dark bay, but same conformation problems. she's a bit fiesty. of course i shouldn't judge your whole breeding program on those two.

I'm interested in one of those shuffling horses, or maybe even one that can tap dance...now that would be entertaining (and worth reproducing even). :starcat:

is that particular mare, which you saw me ride once (which was NOT a public ride) when i was evaluating her for a possible purchase, even in my breeding program or was she purchased by me after that evaluation ride and I don't about know it? WOW...its amazing how much you know about my horses.

Gee when I evaluate a new horse I usually ride using 2 hands and not picking up deer horns and then fling them around a horse. Hence why your azz hit the ground. Next time lay there and die for all I care..A smart rider your not.
And HOW many times have we actually ridden together both public and private? go ahead, enlighten me since I seem to have forgotten. And which horse did i ride?

I have been on many public rides No I pesonally wasn't attached to your hip.. I watch people and horses...But I guess you have forgotten the times you asked me to go to Tuckahoe with your group and ride. Never happen I respect my animals .Your group doesn't.
And what happend to make you feel this way about my horse(s)? Funny I've been on every single ride the local club has had for the last 3+ years, and hundreds of other rides with friends, and don't remember riding with you at any one of them, nor have you ever even been to either of my places yet you speak with such authority. I'm truely in awe.

Refer to above post answer...You have not been on every ride at the local club if your refering to SMTR, So you lie also.. oh no not you your such an honest person....

Oh and there goes that lack of first hand knowledge through the grapevine thing again...its amazing how much people know about how things which they have no experience actually work.

Let me tell you this I have been in this horse world along time. I have had plenty of first hand experience. I just don't go out there an act like I know it all like you do.Mine has been all on hands knowledge, not books.

Why don't you tell everyone what your real problem is Ming?
A decision that was made which I had nothing to do with might be the answer?
Sour grapes perhaps?
I don't have any problems So what ever your referring to I haven't an idea. Oh is it the ride thing Hey I don't care...So you gonna drag SMTR into this? I really don't care. I'm not a member anymore...Seems you always try to make everyone look dumb in this forum. Personally I think atleast 2 of you should go...
So I have answered your ?'s OK that's it, don't drag it on. Because most on here don't want to hear it.

Holy crackers and cheese:lmao: anyone have some wine???????

MEEEOOOWW.... See I am gone and the drama still continues. Therefore I must assume that it wasn't me. :1bdz:

I've seen a couple of your products, not at your farm. although very quiet, he is very small boned, very small heart-girth for his height, ewe necked, rump-high, unfortunate little thing. with huge white around his eyes, he just isn't too pretty, appy colored, not gaited. the other one is nicer in color, a dark bay, but same conformation problems. she's a bit fiesty. of course i shouldn't judge your whole breeding program on those two.
:lol: oh so now I've gone from backyard (I'd prolly call it barn yard) breeding Registered, certified to breed (which is how they prove themselves) Rockies to Crappy Aps.

It's MAGIC! :thewave:

C'Mon people is this the best ya got? :yahoo:

:lol: oh so now I've gone from backyard (I'd prolly call it barn yard) breeding Registered, certified to breed (which is how they prove themselves) Rockies to Crappy Aps.

It's MAGIC! :thewave:

C'Mon people is this the best ya got? :yahoo:

Okay then, prove them wrong. Show us your quality horses and educate us using video and photo of other rockies to compare them too. Show us what makes them better than any other rocky out there. Because when I look at the rocky website I see horses that look very different from the ones you raise. If Devine is wrong....prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.

Okay then, prove them wrong. Show us your quality horses and educate us using video and photo of other rockies to compare them too. Show us what makes them better than any other rocky out there. Because when I look at the rocky website I see horses that look very different from the ones you raise. If Devine is wrong....prove it. Put your money where your mouth is.
The horses prove that they are worthy of being bred when they are certified to breed at or beyond age 2, and do so on their own merits, not compared to other horses.

That evaluation process includes type (conformation), temperament and gaiting ability. No other breed (including your color 'breed') has these requirements put on it before offspring are even registerable at all. My entire adult brood mare band is Registered (double registered in fact), certified to breed (also in two registries), AND color typed by DNA. Every foal i have is color typed by DNA, registered or is/will be eligible for registration and certification in one or both registries.

There is no need to go above and beyond that considering YOUR breed has no limitations aside from parentage DNA typing.

Proof in my double registered, double certified stallion has already been exhibited by, as I've clearly stated before, being chosen to sire a confirmed 2010 foal for the owner of a mare which is co-owned with the person who wrote THE book on the breed. Oh and did i mention he's ONLY a coming 4 year old horse?

BTW...when exactly have you seen my brood mare band, foals or stallion? You speak with such authority on them surely you must have visited me and viewed the paperwork and seen them under saddle. And when did i say they were better than any other Rocky out there?? :confused: help me out here.

Oh and lest we forget, I am an examiner for one of those registries. And before you even go there, I can NOT certify my own horses.

Oh and regarding the website, several of mine are in fact ON the website on both member photos pages, and have been IN the magazine, on the back cover in fact, NONE of which i had to pay for, and was pleasantly surprised at when it happened - I didn't ask for either thing. TYVM.

Anything further?

Let me jump in again REAL quick...where are you located? Where do you show?

I did not know there was such a fine breeding establishment in the area.

It is just amazing what we learn on these forums.

Maybe you should host an open house so we all can some see this fine breeding program :whistle:

I think I see where Phy is going. A typical conformation shot is one in profile, the horse standing squarely on level ground, groomed and tidy, with the photo tight enough to show the entire side view. This way you can evaluate the horse via a clear photo. I believe she is asking you to provide confo shots of your Rocky's to be compared to confo shots of other Rocky's with you pointing out where your horses excel and what you are breeding to improve.

The horses prove that they are worthy of being bred when they are certified to breed at or beyond age 2, and do so on their own merits, not compared to other horses.



I'm a little confused. Isn't there a breed standard (the "ideal" Rocky, or App, or QH, etc) that the breed registries are looking for? Therefore, wouldn't all of your Rockies be certified with the idea that they possess characteristics idealized in the breed? Not saying they are being judged against any other individual Rocky, but rather the "ideal Rocky" that the registry has in mind. What's the point of a breed registry if every horse is being judged against itself and only itself?

Or is this something entirely different than simply being certified to breed?

Sorry, I really am quite ignorant when it comes to how all the different breeds are registered, judged, certified to breed, etc.

Btw, good idea for an open house! Sounds like there's a lot of confusion about your breeding program and Rockies in general.

I'm a little confused. Isn't there a breed standard (the "ideal" Rocky, or App, or QH, etc) that the breed registries are looking for? Therefore, wouldn't all of your Rockies be certified with the idea that they possess characteristics idealized in the breed? Not saying they are being judged against any other individual Rocky, but rather the "ideal Rocky" that the registry has in mind. What's the point of a breed registry if every horse is being judged against itself and only itself?

Or is this something entirely different than simply being certified to breed?

Sorry, I really am quite ignorant when it comes to how all the different breeds are registered, judged, certified to breed, etc.

Btw, good idea for an open house! Sounds like there's a lot of confusion about your breeding program and Rockies in general.
Registry Handbook (http://www.rmhorse.com/registry_handbook.html)

Have at it. It's all on the breed website. Registration and certification are 2 separate things. A horse must be from 2 registered/certified parents to be fully registerable as capable of producing fully registerable offspring.

If, according to THREE certified RMHA examiners (who are trained then tested in their knowledge of what the breed is suppose to be), a horse doesn't physically look like a Rocky (height and overall conformation), doesn't move like a Rocky (correct 4 beat, evenly timed gait not created by special shoes or training methods) or if it doesn't Act like a Rocky (quiet temperament) then it doesn't pass the certification to breed process and doesn't receive that gold seal of approval for the paperwork, nor can it's offspring be registered. Period.

My breeding stock all conform to breed standards and expectations as proven by the gold seals on their paperwork, and the offspring/young stock I've chosen to by either in utero or on the ground will do the same, as soon as they are eligible. They all come from foundation stock for the breed, with beautiful pedigrees.

No other breed is as stringent on registration and certification for breeding requirements as the RMH. NOT ONE SINGLE BREED. The registration and subsequent certification of breeding stock tells the story, so I don't have too.

Registry Handbook (http://www.rmhorse.com/registry_handbook.html)

Have at it. It's all on the breed website.

If, according to THREE certified RMHA examiners (who are trained then tested in their knowledge of what the breed is suppose to be), a horse doesn't physically look like a Rocky (height and overall conformation), doesn't move like a Rocky (correct 4 beat gait) or if it doesn't Act like a Rocky (quiet temperament) it doesn't pass the certification to breed process and doesn't receive that gold seal of approval for the paperwork. Period.

My breeding stock all conform to breed standards and expectations as proven by the gold seals on their paperwork, and the offspring/young stock I've chosen to by either in utero or on the ground will do the same, as soon as they are eligible. They all come from foundation stock for the breed, with beautiful pedigrees.

No other breed is as stringent on registration and certification for breeding requirements as the RMH. NOT ONE SINGLE BREED. The registration and subsequent certification of breeding stock tells the story, so I don't have too.

which registry examiner are you? I know there are a couple different ones with the Mountain horses.

which registry examiner are you? I know there are a couple different ones with the Mountain horses.

Do you really care....or are you looking for another way to try to degrade me? Nebber mind, I really don't care.

KMSHA Examiners Directory (http://www.kmsha.com/examiners/states/md.htm)
The KMSHA.

I could go into the different registries and what they mean as well, but I don't see the point.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

KMSHA Examiners Directory (http://www.kmsha.com/examiners/states/md.htm)
The KMSHA.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

I know that there was a big uproar a few years back and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses. I thick SHOC started about the same time 1999ish? The gaited registries and warmblood registries were getting stiffer on the requirements on standards and what they were looking for. Is this where The KMSHA was founded?

Do you really care....or are you looking for another way to try to degrade me? Nebber mind, I really don't care.

KMSHA Examiners Directory (http://www.kmsha.com/examiners/states/md.htm)
The KMSHA.

I could go into the different registries and what they mean as well, but I don't see the point.

The RMHA hasn't had an examiners clinic in a number of years. As soon as they do, I'll fly out and take the test.

I am asking questions. You seem to be firing back with all the nasties. I would say you are degrading yourself. I am just trying to read on and learn.

I know that there was a big uproar a few years back and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses. I thick SHOC started about the same time 1999ish? The gaited registries and warmblood registries were getting stiffer on the requirements on standards and what they were looking for. Is this where The KMSHA was founded?
Robin, I am in defense mode because every single comment that has been fired at me is as though I do something horrible, or underhanded or somehow detrimental. It's just plain silly that pack mentality kicks in with you people. For what?? We are all adults who share a common interest...the pure enjoyment of horses.

Oh wait, is this your "real" question:
"...and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses" Which, based on my answer, could somehow lessen the fact that I am a KMSHA and not yet an RMHA examiner? or...are you really curious? Hmm...anyway, just to prove a point...IF you're really interested in the history of the clubs....

The RMHA was the primary registry, and the KMSHA was opened after it's inception because horses under 14.2h as adults (over age 4) even though DNA parentage typed as pure and RMHA registered, simply can't be certified to breed and produce RMHA registered offspring, so the need to form another registry was born, which allows these pure bred Rockies the opportunity to be bred as KMSHA. If you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is true.

The original RMHA sires were pretty much all under 15h, and as a rule, sired many small offspring of quality.

Horses not meeting RMHA height requirements at maturity can be registered KMSHA and certified to breed as full KMSHA. Other than the height difference the 2 registries were identicle until this year, when the KMSHA acknowledged the need to open the books to allow outcrossed gaited mares into the registry for breeding who meet certification guidelines which are exactly the same except for the height rule. Again, if you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is also true.

FWIW this information is not what is told on the KMSHA website, but it is the true reason for the second registry to have been born. The founder of the KMSHA was a founding member for the RMHA and diverged from that club for the reasons I stated above. Many people sided with the president and owner for KMSHA, are dedicated to the KMSHA and do not register their horses RMHA as a result.

I double register my horses and do not lean to one side or the other. I also enjoy going to both shows (although KMSHA shows tend to be more laid back and "fun"). :faint: YES i do indeed go to shows. I just choose not to show my horses. Hubby would kill me after 30 years of dragging him around to dog shows. You know him Robin, ask him yourself if he'll let me show the horses. He HATED being the chauffer. He much prefers what we do with them as camping and trail companions. So that's what we do. He drives the tractor that feeds them.

Robin, I am in defense mode because every single comment that has been fired at me is as though I do something horrible, or underhanded or somehow detrimental. It's just plain silly that pack mentality kicks in with you people. For what?? We are all adults who share a common interest...the pure enjoyment of horses.

Oh wait, is this your "real" question:
"...and some opened their own registry so it was easier to register their horses" Which, based on my answer, could somehow lessen the fact that I am a KMSHA and not yet an RMHA examiner? or...are you really curious? Hmm...anyway, just to prove a point...IF you're really interested in the history of the clubs....

The RMHA was the primary registry, and the KMSHA was opened after it's inception because horses under 14.2h as adults (over age 4) even though DNA parentage typed as pure and RMHA registered, simply can't be certified to breed and produce RMHA registered offspring, so the need to form another registry was born, which allows these pure bred Rockies the opportunity to be bred as KMSHA. If you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is true.

The original RMHA sires were pretty much all under 15h, and as a rule, sired many small offspring of quality.

Horses not meeting RMHA height requirements at maturity can be registered KMSHA and certified to breed as full KMSHA. Other than the height difference the 2 registries were identicle until this year, when the KMSHA acknowledged the need to open the books to allow outcrossed gaited mares into the registry for breeding who meet certification guidelines which are exactly the same except for the height rule. Again, if you read both the KMSHA and RMHA rules of registration, you'll see this is also true.

FWIW this information is not what is told on the KMSHA website, but it is the true reason for the second registry to have been born. The founder of the KMSHA was a founding member for the RMHA and diverged from that club for the reasons I stated above. Many people sided with the president and owner for KMSHA, are dedicated to the KMSHA and do not register their horses RMHA as a result.

I double register my horses and do not lean to one side or the other. I also enjoy going to both shows (although KMSHA shows tend to be more laid back and "fun"). :faint: YES i do indeed go to shows. I just choose not to show my horses. Hubby would kill me after 30 years of dragging him around to dog shows. You know him Robin, ask him yourself if he'll let me show the horses. He HATED being the chauffer. He much prefers what we do with them as camping and trail companions. So that's what we do. He drives the tractor that feeds them.


Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry

{AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.
These might be another registry that you can cross register to. Some Of the horses that Had white markings on the body were able to register in AGMHA? I am sorry I did not read through all of this but read about 8 or so yrs ago when I had a gaited spotted pony stud. I personally was looking into alot of the different registries. Shoc was another one. Some did not require parentage or DNA testing at the time Just pictures and video.

Wasn't the height rule made to keep the mounts smaller. I know the Saddlebred and TWH their might be others got out of hand with 16 16.3 hand horses. I remember in some of the earlier books They were wanting a certain height for the ground mounting when the horse parked out. I understand taller gentlemen and ladies required a taller mount but the breeding got out of hand and they set the height rule to certain registries.

{KNGHA} Kentucky Natural Gaited Horse Assoc.

Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry
{AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.

There are virtually hundreds of gaited horse registries. A horse with full registration with the RMHA (Rocky MHA), MPHA (Mountain Pleasure Horse Assocation) or the KNGHA (KY Natural Gaited Horse Assoc.) can be grandfathered in as full KMSHA, but still has to be certified to have registered offspring. RMHA books are closed. My adult breeding stock are all double registered/certified RMHA/KMSHA.

To be eligible for a gaited horse registry the horse must exhibit any smooth gait which can be the running walk or fox trot in addition to the lateral 4 beat gaits ie: the Rack, Saddle Rack or the acceptable but not preferred stepping (broken) pace which are required for my breed.

I own and am familiar with horses registered with the RMHA, KMSHA and SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association - which is affiliated with the KMSHA and allows cross registration based on spotting) which are all related to the same true DNA parentage certified Mountain Horse breed - and not simply gaited horse registries like the others are.

The running walk/ft are NOT certifiable gaits for Rockies one is not evenly timed and one is diagonal.

Wasn't the height rule made to keep the mounts smaller. I know the Saddlebred and TWH their might be others got out of hand with 16 16.3 hand horses. I remember in some of the earlier books They were wanting a certain height for the ground mounting when the horse parked out. I understand taller gentlemen and ladies required a taller mount but the breeding got out of hand and they set the height rule to certain registries.

No it wasn't intended to keep them small, but the 14.2h rule was intended to keep "ponies" from being certified to breed as "horses".

There is a height minimum of 14.2h and a max of 16h in the breed standard, those who are over or under it are simply not eligible for certification. I'm not sure why the max height was set unless it had something to do with being too "drafty" or to large and cumbersome to do what they were intended? I can ask some old timers for a reason, if you're really interested. http://www.rmhorse.com/images/files/Registry%20Handbook/RulesofRegistryUpdated01152009.pdf

16h is way to big for me anyway so it doesn't bother me, although most of my breeding stock tends towards the larger end because I want my adult horses to be between 14.3h and 15.3h at maturity to accomodate more than just average women sized riders. The breed as a whole, needs those sized horses in it.

The smaller horses for the most part rack/saddle rack naturally right from the beginning. The larger horses, have walker or saddle bred influence infused way back, to bring height and substance up, and tend towards trotty or pacey, and require conditioning to gait. When out of condition, they can be inconsistent, so it's important to know what gait breeding stock tends towards and breed them accordingly to bring back the natural, evenly timed 4 beat gait.

Very interesting, but I believe it spilit into more that just that registry {AGMHA}American Gaited Mountain Horse Assoc and {UMHA}United Mountain Horse Assoc.
These might be another registry that you can cross register to. Some Of the horses that Had white markings on the body were able to register in AGMHA? I am sorry I did not read through all of this but read about 8 or so yrs ago when I had a gaited spotted pony stud. I personally was looking into alot of the different registries. Shoc was another one. Some did not require parentage or DNA testing at the time Just pictures and video.

Again, I'm not current on the other gaited registry rules and won't speak to them.

The SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association) was founded at approximately the same time as the KMSHA and is it's affiliate organization. It gives those who have too much white to be registered with RMHA/KMSHA an official registry. The breed standard for conformation, temperament and gait in the SMHA are exactly the same as for RMHA/KMSHA, they just have spots which are the result of the Sabino gene, which many RMHA/KMSHA horses carry, and when doubled up on creates too much white on an otherwise registerable/certifiable horse.

Solids are eligible for SMHA if both parents are registered SMHA but a horse can't be both RMHA/KMSHA and SMHA because the RMHA/KMSHA have rules specifying how much white then can have and where it is on the body.

I certify for SMHA as well as KMSHA. The SMHA books are open to grade mares who also meet requirements.

Again, I'm not current on the other gaited registry rules and won't speak to them.

The SMHA (Spotted Mountain Horse Association) was founded at approximately the same time as the KMSHA and is it's affiliate organization. It gives those who have too much white to be registered with RMHA/KMSHA an official registry. The breed standard for conformation, temperament and gait in the SMHA are exactly the same as for RMHA/KMSHA, they just have spots which are the result of the Sabino gene, which many RMHA/KMSHA horses carry, and when doubled up on creates too much white on an otherwise registerable/certifiable horse.

Solids are eligible for SMHA if both parents are registered SMHA but a horse can't be both RMHA/KMSHA and SMHA because the RMHA/KMSHA have rules specifying how much white then can have and where it is on the body.

I certify for SMHA as well as KMSHA. The SMHA books are open to grade mares who also meet requirements.

I know when I had standardbreds that were retired from the track, I really enjoyed some of their really smooth gaits.

YouTube - Soulcrusher-Standardbred Speed Racking Singlefooter Stallion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL8dzw4NIrE&feature=PlayList&p=4FD6F6BD344F8DD8&index=0)

this video is neat

I know when I had standardbreds that were retired from the track, I really enjoyed some of their really smooth gaits.

YouTube - Soulcrusher-Standardbred Speed Racking Singlefooter Stallion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL8dzw4NIrE&feature=PlayList&p=4FD6F6BD344F8DD8&index=0)

this video is neat
At speed that's wonderfully smooth because he's a singlefooter (one foot on the ground at a time when in gait). In some of the stills in that (VERY cool ) video you can actually see that. In the moving ones you can see the side to side action, which when going so fast, makes it smooth. There is a gaited registry for singlefooters too.

The average Standardbred who paces does a true 2 beat pace (lateral), that rattles your fillings loose. The Amish don't really care for them either because they rattle the buggy side to side too. :lol:

Yes, I see that you can still Google but, did you have a point?

YES, if you would have examined the links more carefully you would have noted Breed standards.

And, if you would have read up on the breed standards of each of the mentioned breeds, you would have seen my point. But let me see if I can help you SEE my point.

Point # 1
COLOR IS ONE OF THE FIRST REQUIREMENTS (IF NOT THE MAIN REQUIREMENT) IN THE BREED STANDARD FOR THE BREED(S)

American Cream Draft Horse
Listing in the requirements lineage first, color, and must be draft third. As stated in the link: The American Cream Draft Horse is exactly as the name describes.

Cleveland Bays
Cleveland Bays must be bay with black points, i.e. black legs, black mane and black tail. The color is second only to height requirement.

Um, no. American Cream Drafts are not a color breed. Sorry. I believe you are incorrect. Read the Breed standards of each of the breeds and you would see that American cream drafts and Cleveland Bays lend themselves to be “color breeds” of a specific origin.

American Cream Drafts are a specific genetic breed. Most Breeds are genetic!
If you cross an American Cream with another draft breed if that horse is cream it can be registered as Appendix but, that is only because the breed is endangered. Off spring of that appendix can only be registered if bred back to a full American Cream Draft. ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.
Who cares about the cross at this point, we are discussing “color in breeds” not Appendix or possible registry if cross bred with acceptable breed for appendix.
Cleveland Bay is just one name for the oldest horse breed in Britain. While that may or may not be true, it doesn’t attest to breed standards.
They used to have markings similar to duns with dorsal stripes and zebra stripes. As with other breeds (example height of white markings on QH legs) some color preferences have been noted. For example bright bay is more desirable than dark bay. Fuzzy breed standards?

And, in case it's not obvious yet I research everything.
Maybe you need utilize some research tools such as GOOGLE :shrug:

:lol:

Too easy.

Wasn't worth my time to point those things out, but they're exactly why i mentioned those particular breeds.

:lol:

Too easy.

Wasn't worth my time to point those things out, but they're exactly why i mentioned those particular breeds.

I beg to differ...this conversation is about breeding FOR color. Those are breed registries that just happen to come in a certain color.
Just like: Haflingers http://www.haflingerhorse.com/ahr_breed_standards.htm have a color standard.
Just like: Norwegian Fjords are some variation of dun, and once is a great while express grey.
The color is a breed norm, just like in cleveland bays, but the breeding is set to that breed of horse...you cant cross and arrive at those breeds.

When breeding for color, it is more reffering to when Color is a breed standard it is more referring to something like PHBA where a quarter horse can compete against a TB because they are both palominos. So there you have a color being bred FOR, not just the breed norm.

Quote from The American Creme Draft website: "The roots of this rare breed go back to the early 1900’s and “Old Granny”, a mare of draft breeding with a cream-colored coat, pink skin, and amber eyes, three defining traits resulting from the Champagne gene. Those traits were passed on to her offspring, which were sought after for their beauty."

If that's not breeding FOR color, I don't know what is.....the breed was identified as a separate breed BECAUSE of the color.

Given the fact that the DNA color test for the Champagne Gene is new just this year they had no way of knowing exactly what made that color, so many of them carry the creme gene in addition to Champagne which gives a false double dilute appearance.

Yes...in fact...I said I bred for color....:coffee:

Ok...so is breeding FOR color a good thing or a bad one since you by admission, do it, and Phyx's 'breed' was founded on a "popular" beautiful color?

I assume you breed Appendix QHs (first generation TB crossed with QHs) is that correct? Do you have a website?

Oh wait...I get it....its being said that I breed my Dual Registered/Dual Certified Rockies for color FIRST....

....would that be first AFTER they meet qualifications for registration and then subsequent breed suitability certification according to THREE indpendent Breed Examiners - since ALL of my breeding stock is double registered and double certified meaning they've already proven themselves worthy of being bred before they're ever bred at all?

Quote from The American Creme Draft website: "The roots of this rare breed go back to the early 1900’s and “Old Granny”, a mare of draft breeding with a cream-colored coat, pink skin, and amber eyes, three defining traits resulting from the Champagne gene. Those traits were passed on to her offspring, which were sought after for their beauty."

If that's not breeding FOR color, I don't know what is.....the breed was identified as a separate breed BECAUSE of the color.

Given the fact that the DNA color test for the Champagne Gene is new just this year they had no way of knowing exactly what made that color, so many of them carry the creme gene in addition to Champagne which gives a false double dilute appearance.

Ok...so is breeding FOR color a good thing or a bad one since you by admission, do it, and Phyx's 'breed' was founded on a "popular" beautiful color?

I assume you breed Appendix QHs (first generation TB crossed with QHs) is that correct? Do you have a website?

Oh wait...I get it....its being said that I breed my Dual Registered/Dual Certified Rockies for color FIRST....

....would that be first AFTER they meet qualifications for registration and then subsequent breed suitability certification according to THREE indpendent Breed Examiners - since ALL of my breeding stock is double registered and double certified meaning they've already proven themselves worthy of being bred before they're ever bred at all?

Why are you getting all fresh with me? I've always been nice to you, and never picked a fight...now you are trying to pick a fight with me? My point was this thread is about breeding for color...if you have a distinct breed that does not outcross, that is established and just happens to have been founded on a color...then that isn't a current "breeding for color" practice. No chance is behind your outcome...they come in specified colors and you can't cross one breed with another to get it and still have it registered as that breed.

I started this thing by saying I breed for color. I breed AQHA, and color is part of our program. I just happen to be very selective on the crosses I use to get that color. How you got all defensive in this discussion I will never know. I think the only time anyone questioned your breeding practice is when it was brought up that you bred a rocky to an App. You do what ever it is that you do and have fun...but to think that your animals are superior and lash out at everyone that asks anything about them just doesn't make sense. And yes...my prefered ride is an appendix.

I beg to differ...this conversation is about breeding FOR color. Those are breed registries that just happen to come in a certain color.
Just like: Haflingers http://www.haflingerhorse.com/ahr_breed_standards.htm have a color standard.
Just like: Norwegian Fjords are some variation of dun, and once is a great while express grey.
The color is a breed norm, just like in cleveland bays, but the breeding is set to that breed of horse...you cant cross and arrive at those breeds.

When breeding for color, it is more reffering to when Color is a breed standard it is more referring to something like PHBA where a quarter horse can compete against a TB because they are both palominos. So there you have a color being bred FOR, not just the breed norm.



Yes, but happyappy isn't the only one that seems to think they are a color first breed. They consider that themselves, hence the reason the color is part of the breed name, as she and the web links I posted pointed out.

Haflinger is not a color, is it? Not the same thing we are talking about. While the Haflinger and Norwegian Fjords have a preferred color, and the color window is limited, they are a true “breed” that happen to be known for a desire specific color.

TRUE BREEDS THAT ALSO HAVE COLOR- these breeds typically pass on their color to their offspring, otherwise known as true breeds that are said to have “color preference.” THEY ARE NOT COLOR BREEDS.

Friesian Horse -(must be black for mainstream registration)
Appaloosa -(leopard or other small spotting patterns)
American Paint Horse

Other breeds that might be considered by some color breeds are technically pedigree-based breeds.

Norwegian Fjord Horses
Haflinger

In some breeds, though not all, offspring of animals registered in these stud books can also be registered, sometimes with restrictions, even if they do not have the desired color.
******************************************************
There are Breed registries which admit any animal fitting a given set of physical characteristics, even if there is minimal or no evidence of the trait being a true-breeding characteristic. Some may even recognize horses from multiple breeds, thus, such animals are classified as a "type" rather than a "breed."

Correct me if I am wrong, but COLOR BREEDS would fall under “type” rather than “breed.”

ABRA -Buckskin,
PHA- Palomino,
ICHR- champagne
American White and American Creme Horse Registry- Cremello And Perlino

Cremello And Perlino (double dilutes) and champagne are not breeds but wonderful colors that are present in many breeds. Theses colors have existed for a long long time but only recently in the past decade, due to COLOR DNA testing were truly understood.

Pearl is another color that has recently been defined by COLOR DNA testing.
Seal Brown yet another color recently defined by COLOR DNA testing.

COLOR BREED REGISTRIES typically accepts horses (and sometimes ponies and mules) of almost any breed or type. Registries have opened that accept horses (and sometimes ponies and mules) of almost any breed or type, with color either the only requirement for registration or the primary criterion.

And as I have said, even the QH industry have what they deem “acceptable colors” (there is a color standard, they just have more than one) and for years excluded certain colors from their registries, even if they were offspring from two fully registered parents, due to lack of knowledge about color. Now that the COLOR DNA testing has started to become the norm for many breeds, those once excluded colors are now acceptable in the registry.


:coffee:

Quote from The American Creme Draft website: "The roots of this rare breed go back to the early 1900’s and “Old Granny”, a mare of draft breeding with a cream-colored coat, pink skin, and amber eyes, three defining traits resulting from the Champagne gene. Those traits were passed on to her offspring, which were sought after for their beauty."

If that's not breeding FOR color, I don't know what is.....the breed was identified as a separate breed BECAUSE of the color.

Given the fact that the DNA color test for the Champagne Gene is new just this year they had no way of knowing exactly what made that color, so many of them carry the creme gene in addition to Champagne which gives a false double dilute appearance.



Ok...so is breeding FOR color a good thing or a bad one since you by admission, do it, and Phyx's 'breed' was founded on a "popular" beautiful color?

I assume you breed Appendix QHs (first generation TB crossed with QHs) is that correct? Do you have a website?

Oh wait...I get it....its being said that I breed my Dual Registered/Dual Certified Rockies for color FIRST....

....would that be first AFTER they meet qualifications for registration and then subsequent breed suitability certification according to THREE indpendent Breed Examiners - since ALL of my breeding stock is double registered and double certified meaning they've already proven themselves worthy of being bred before they're ever bred at all?


I don't have time to reply to all of this as I'm on vacation and I'm just stopping in on my iphone. But, as Appendix said it's very different to breed for color and then to have a breed that only is one color. It's like breeding zebras. Every zebra has stripes. If it doesn't...it's not a zebra. I don't see how that's confusion? Every draft horse with cream and/or champagne is not an american cream draft.

I also can't understand why you seem to erroneously think that the American Cream Draft is "my" breed. I own four horses, each of them is a different breed. I try not to stereotype a breed and I choose my animals based on individual temperament and ability as well as what I intend to use them for. I do not have a breeding program. The mare I bought in Canada came in foal. She was bred too close to when I bought her (1 week) for us to know if she was in foal...so it was a 2-in-1. So far the yearling is brilliant and I do plan to keep him. If I do not the breeder would like him and, they own his half brother, too.

I'm not in the least impressed by the certification that you stand so stalwartly behind. Many breeds have inspections. Kuerings are done as weanlings and then they can go for ster ratings as three year olds or older. Frieisans are much more select in their breeding programs and most other breeds. Then, for stallions there is a much more stringent process. There are only about 100 approved stallions worldwide. (FPS)

Then, most warmblood registries require a horse to actually prove themselves either in competition or through the 100 day stallion test. Here's a terrific article that you can read: 100 Day Test for Sport Horse Stallion Approval (http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/breeding/test41203/)

Then, some of the registries only offer temporary breeding licenses and then the stallions have to be inspected again. So, hop off of the high horse and educate yourself a bit more before you start throwing around "only". I'll be home next week and will be happy to answer any questions.

Oh, and my request was for you to post photos...think of them as diagrams, of your horses versus other rockies to let us know what confirmation points are great in yours. And, video to show us what gait is most desired since yours are wonderful. But, I suppose if your foals, mares, and stallions aren't on par with the rest of the rockies I can understand why you'd be hesitant to show them.

"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???
Yeah!
I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme
I think you mean peanut roller! Has nothing to do with shuffling appaloosas. Has everything to do with how showing horses can really take a turn for the worse. Let’s torture our horse with running reins, draw reins and tie-downs and unnecessary crap. People try to make these peanut roller Quarter Horses with their heads dragging down on the ground instead of having their head alert and looking like they know what they're doing. No horse can travel with his head down between his legs. THIS IS ONE OF THE NEGATIVE INFLUENCES OF SHOWING!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention if you have ever been to a Susan Harris or Peggy Brown clinic they would tell you that you are tearing the horse up if you practice this forced technique. I am assuming by you comment, you were a bit confused as to the definition of “Peanut roller”.

Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.
Again it doesn’t appear that you are familiar with Gait or Rocky Mountain horses. That is ok, although you comment is a bit out of place, READ BELOW. HOT ROCKIES, :shrug: Maybe Hot looking!!!!:biggrin:
The movement of the "indian shuffle" is lateral not diagonal like the trot but it's a four beat gait so it's not really a pace. When the Spanish came to American they brought the horse flesh including the gaited precursors to the Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, Mangalarga Marchador and other *spanish* gaited breeds. So, the gait was bred into the Appaloosa breed. Just like crossing any breed with a gaited breed you're likely to get a bastardized version of the gait with a possibility of getting a good gait.
(Not arguing with anyone. Just giving some more information. My first horse was an Appaloosa. And, in case it's not obvious yet I research everything.)
Gaited Appaloosa
THE APPALOOSA SHUFFLE - (Also known as the INDIAN SHUFFLE)
For those of you who have never come across the term 'Indian shuffle' before, here is the explanation.....read on
as published by Appaloosa News, June 1978 Issue

Gaited Appaloosa (http://www.gaitedhorse.com/appaloosa1.htm)
http://www.leopardappaloosa.com/Documents/Gaitedness-in-Appaloosa.pdf

DATA POINTS:
Many people associate the Appaloosa with the old west and certain Indian tribes, but their relationship with man dates back to a much earlier time. Spotted horses roamed the earth since before prehistoric times, when man lived in caves during the ice age.
In ancient Persia, Appaloosas were worshipped as the sacred horses of Nisca, the great hero of Persian literature.
Spotted horses also could be found in China as early as 206 B.C. and before.
The Spanish explorers introduced the spotted horse to North America.
History of the Appaloosa (http://www.amappaloosa.com/history/story.htm)

Appaloosas have been around much longer than any breed registries. Although their true history may not have been written down, much of it existed in ancient art. I think it is a judgment call on whether the Gait was bred out of or into the Appaloosa breed.

But my 5 year old gelding shuffles with ease, and some time prefers that over a trot or lope. It is definitely a MOVE OUT GAIT. Others on this forum have seen him in action, and I will tell you it is a wonderful ride.

:deadhorse: <----Think he was bred for color?

:deadhorse: <----Think he was bred for color?

I think he was bred for soup.

:deadhorse: <----Think he was bred for color?

YEAH, ..... BROWN:roflmao:

I just want to make a comment about the showing aspect. I don't raise or show horses, but I do raise (and used to show) sheep. Showing a breed of animal tends to exploit the breed and you can end up with the "same" breed of animal that has totally different characteristics than what you started out with. Take sheep for example. Many market breeds of sheep have been totally changed for the worse in order to win in the show ring. If you take a ribbon-winning Suffolk and try to put it out on pasture it would waste away to nothing. They've been bred to look tubey (long and lean) so their bodies cannot even handle living on forage like sheep are meant to do. No commercial sheep producer (or even someone wanting to raise sheep for their own use) would want sheep like that.

Some other breeds have been cross bred so much because judges starting placing taller animals. Some champion show breeds (like Romneys) are so totally crossbred it's not even funny.

Judges rule the breeding/showing world, and that's pathetic to me. Look at quarter horses. Some of the champion halter winners look ridiculous!

I don't give a darn if someone wins in the show ring. The proof is in the pudding. If you raise an animal that performs well for what you want, that's all that matters. Of course, conformation is very important still.

Also, your comments in refrence to showing were very good points. I am not sure why people that show, privledge them selves over people that don't ("greater than thou"). I cannot believe that people are so shallow as to believe that horses are not useful unless they show. I don't know many real working cow ponies or ranch horses that show.

Showing is not for everyone or every horse. I know a lot of people that most of there riding life was in the ring, how boring is that. I am not saying showing is wrong. It has its good points. BUT IT IS NOT THE END ALL, BE ALL OF EVERYTHING. But lets face it, it also has its very bad points.

I think he was bred for soup.

:faint:

I'm not in the least impressed by the certification that you stand so stalwartly behind. Many breeds have inspections. Kuerings are done as weanlings and then they can go for ster ratings as three year olds or older. Frieisans are much more select in their breeding programs and most other breeds. Then, for stallions there is a much more stringent process. There are only about 100 approved stallions worldwide. (FPS)

Then, most warmblood registries require a horse to actually prove themselves either in competition or through the 100 day stallion test. Here's a terrific article that you can read: 100 Day Test for Sport Horse Stallion Approval (http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/breeding/test41203/)

Then, some of the registries only offer temporary breeding licenses and then the stallions have to be inspected again. So, hop off of the high horse and educate yourself a bit more before you start throwing around "only".

Exactly what I was thinking. That "certification" to breed for rockies does not require a live inspection. I believe most can be done from a videotape/photos. If one of the requirements for certification is temperament (as stated previously on this thread) how in the world can you accurately tell a horses temperament by a photo or video? Thats like me deciding to buy a horse JUST from their online ad- no way! Nothing replaces an in-person visit (or live inspection, in this case).

Horse bites the handler, kicks, bolts, bucks, or rears up while you are taking the video? No problem, just scrap that video and shoot another one. Can't do that in a live inspection! You can hide SO MUCH in photos or a short video clip.

I can't believe that any registry would grant any sort of "certification" without a live inspection. Photos & video can never provide enough information to provide a true/complete certification for breeding.

And in comparison to breeds that don't have or require ANY certification to breed...I think the rockies' breeding certification probably does more harm than good, because it gives the buyer/client a false impression that the horse has actually gone through a rigid inspection process. Sending a video and having the horse declared "certified" from that is a joke.

The video has to be 6 minutes long (2 minutes haltered, 2 minutes left circle, 2 minutes right circle). How the heck can you "certify" or "approve" a horse from a 6 minute video? I guess it all depends on the standard for certification... lower standards equal a weak certification. I know most high end breeds (Friesians, Oldenburgs, Trakehners, Rheinlander, etc) require a live inspection, as Phyxius said, where you know they have actually had to go through a long rigorous testing process before they are given any sort of certification.

But for rockies, send your $, a short video (6 minutes), some photos, and a vet certificate and BAM- your horse is CERTIFIED! Heck I could be an inspection judge too, I could do that in my PJ's in front of the TV.

I'd be interested to find out the statistics for the # of applications for certification that are actually rejected in a given year (ex. 99% accepted and 1% denied).

Yeah!

I think you mean peanut roller! ... I am assuming by you comment, you were a bit confused as to the definition of “Peanut roller”.

Again it doesn’t appear that you are familiar with Gait or Rocky Mountain horses. That is ok, although you comment is a bit out of place, READ BELOW. HOT ROCKIES, :shrug: Maybe Hot looking!!!!:biggrin:

Not confused, 'peanut pusher', 'peanut roller' - slightly different term, same concept. You pick which one suits you best. I don't care.

As for Rocky's, no not terribly familiar. What I've seen locally does not impress me. On that alone I would likely not pursue them. Besides there's just something about adults riding ponies...ehh. And before you throw out the certifications, pics that have been posted show adults mounted on Rockys that appear to be pony sized.

And in comparison to breeds that don't have or require ANY certification to breed...I think the rockies' breeding certification probably does more harm than good, because it gives the buyer/client a false impression that the horse has actually gone through a rigid inspection process. Sending a video and having the horse declared "certified" from that is a joke.

The video has to be 6 minutes long (2 minutes haltered, 2 minutes left circle, 2 minutes right circle). How the heck can you "certify" or "approve" a horse from a 6 minute video? I guess it all depends on the standard for certification... lower standards equal a weak certification. I know most high end breeds (Friesians, Oldenburgs, Trakehners, Rheinlander, etc) require a live inspection, as Phyxius said, where you know they have actually had to go through a long rigorous testing process before they are given any sort of certification.

But for rockies, send your $, a short video (6 minutes), some photos, and a vet certificate and BAM- your horse is CERTIFIED! Heck I could be an inspection judge too, I could do that in my PJ's in front of the TV.

I'd be interested to find out the statistics for the # of applications for certification that are actually rejected in a given year (ex. 99% accepted and 1% denied).


I'll be sure to tell the head examiner for the RMHA that you feel this way and would like to improve the video certification process, and in your Jammies no less. :yay: KOOL!

I have no idea how many people do it by video, nor do i care. For my my personal RMHA breeding stock I have always driven them to the 3 examiners, had them shipped to KY examiners, had them done in KY prior to coming here or purchased stock which is already certified.

A certification requires the unbiased opinion of 3 examiners, with no vested interest in the animal. Not one person. 3.

Video certification requires a Veterinarian's Certificate of Inspection, performed in person by a local vet, which confirms identification based on the comparing the pedigree/registration pictures, as well as the required physical characteristics for the breed, and is signed by the examining vet. If the horse's temperament is poor, why would a licensed vet sign the examiners certificate as passing?

The video is used to see correct foot fall patterns without artificial aids, that's what a gaited breed is all about. Correct GAIT which is what is seen in a video. A video can be slowed down to verify the pattern and sequence is correct according to breed standard. Nothing more, nothing less. The attending vet verifies conformation and temperament when he does the hands on exam then signs off on it.

Why would anyone even attempt to certify an animal that won't pass? I'm pretty sure that those who own warmbloods (or any other breed mentioned) wouldn't present a horse who they know had a chance at failing to meet the criteria, now would they?

I certainly won't send a horse for certification until I'm confident it will pass. If it won't pass, it never gets certified and the consequences are that it's offspring are never registered with RMHA. It's really that simple.

Yes, but happyappy isn't the only one that seems to think they are a color first breed. They consider that themselves, hence the reason the color is part of the breed name, as she and the web links I posted pointed out.: I am beginning to think that Happy just takes opposing position to argue and attack, as she is argumentative even with me when I have not attacked her. Not impressed as I think forums are a great place for discussion, not defensive or attacking conversation.

[/QUOTE]
Haflinger is not a color, is it? Not the same thing we are talking about. While the Haflinger and Norwegian Fjords have a preferred color, and the color window is limited, they are a true “breed” that happen to be known for a desire specific color. :[/QUOTE] Exactly, that is my point. Even though a color is stated in a breed name, like Phyx said, it comes down to the breed that just happens to be of a certain color.
[/QUOTE]
TRUE BREEDS THAT ALSO HAVE COLOR- these breeds typically pass on their color to their offspring, otherwise known as true breeds that are said to have “color preference.” THEY ARE NOT COLOR BREEDS.

Friesian Horse -(must be black for mainstream registration)
Appaloosa -(leopard or other small spotting patterns)
American Paint Horse

Other breeds that might be considered by some color breeds are technically pedigree-based breeds.

Norwegian Fjord Horses
Haflinger
:[/QUOTE] Exactly, I think we are on the same page and saying the same thing..
[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but COLOR BREEDS would fall under “type” rather than “breed.”
[/QUOTE]

Yes...finally we are getting back to the article...breeding for color. People breeding for a certain color ie Jockey club horses breeding for the creme gene. Or AQHA breeding for the creme gene (such as I do) . Again, my debate in all this was to point out that the article states it is ok to do so if quality is kept in mind and color is a bonus. As someone who breeds for color, oftentimes a stigma is associated with the practice, while really the breeding program should not be discounted because color is a desired trait. The whole program needs to be assesed.
[/QUOTE]
Cremello And Perlino (double dilutes) and champagne are not breeds but wonderful colors that are present in many breeds. Theses colors have existed for a long long time but only recently in the past decade, due to COLOR DNA testing were truly understood.

And as I have said, even the QH industry have what they deem “acceptable colors” (there is a color standard, they just have more than one) and for years excluded certain colors from their registries, even if they were offspring from two fully registered parents, due to lack of knowledge about color. Now that the COLOR DNA testing has started to become the norm for many breeds, those once excluded colors are now acceptable in the registry.
:coffee:[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are correct...I am pretty up to date on the dilute debate within AQHA, I found it rather interesting. Here is a great article http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/Perlino0201.pdf Hopefully, you can persuade Happy to be more discussion oriented. Phyx is also pretty knowlegable on draft breed history...I would have to disagree that the draft breeds such as her creme horse, fall into the scope of what this article is discussing.

Exactly, that is my point. Even though a color is stated in a breed name, like Phyx said, it comes down to the breed that just happens to be of a certain color.
I agree, but not because Phyx said it, but because simply defining what a “COLOR BREED” is vs. PEDIGREE-BASED BREED vs. FUNCTION-BASED BREED (i.e. such as a sport horse, appendix). There are a lot of misconceptions out there due to lack of knowledge. I believe, some of us have learned a bit more about the Rocky Mountain Horse Breed. There are a lot of misconceptions here on this forum with respect to that breed. I read a lot of childish comments degrading the breed, so silly. But considering the source(s) eh…. well. :shrug:
So have we ALL learned that the Rocky Mountain Breed is NOT a COLOR BREED but a PEDIGREE-BASED BREED that happens to come in so many different lovely colors? :starcat: :clap:

Exactly, I think we are on the same page and saying the same thing..
Yes!:smile:
Yes...finally we are getting back to the article...breeding for color. People breeding for a certain color ie Jockey club horses breeding for the creme gene. Or AQHA breeding for the creme gene (such as I do) . Again, my debate in all this was to point out that the article states it is ok to do so if quality is kept in mind and color is a bonus. As someone who breeds for color, oftentimes a stigma is associated with the practice, while really the breeding program should not be discounted because color is a desired trait. The whole program needs to be assesed.
AMEN TO THAT! In fact as I have said before, if your breeding program includes color, that is a bonus.
Yes, you are correct...I am pretty up to date on the dilute debate within AQHA, I found it rather interesting. Here is a great article http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/Perlino0201.pdf Hopefully, you can persuade Happy to be more discussion oriented. Phyx is also pretty knowlegable on draft breed history...I would have to disagree that the draft breeds such as her creme horse, fall into the scope of what this article is discussing.
It seems to be a very good article, although I haven’t read it in its entirety, I look forward to.:coffee:

• "I think you mean peanut roller! Has nothing to do with shuffling appaloosas. Has everything to do with how showing horses can really take a turn for the worse. Let’s torture our horse with running reins, draw reins and tie-downs and unnecessary crap. People try to make these peanut roller Quarter Horses with their heads dragging down on the ground instead of having their head alert and looking like they know what they're doing. No horse can travel with his head down between his legs. THIS IS ONE OF THE NEGATIVE INFLUENCES OF SHOWING!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention if you have ever been to a Susan Harris or Peggy Brown clinic they would tell you that you are tearing the horse up if you practice this forced technique. I am assuming by you comment, you were a bit confused as to the definition of “Peanut roller”."

Are you suggesting that showing equals a horse having his head down? The shows expect and want the horse using their bodies correctly (pushing off his back end, using his core, etc.). This is done through ring work such as dressage...NOT tie downs, draw reins, etc. Shows do not want horses on the forehand, so show horses actually end up learning to use their bodies CORRECTLY. How is this bad?

• "I am not sure why people that show, privledge them selves over people that don't ("greater than thou"). I cannot believe that people are so shallow as to believe that horses are not useful unless they show. I don't know many real working cow ponies or ranch horses that show. Showing is not for everyone or every horse. I know a lot of people that most of there riding life was in the ring, how boring is that. I am not saying showing is wrong. It has its good points. BUT IT IS NOT THE END ALL, BE ALL OF EVERYTHING. But lets face it, it also has its very bad points."

Everyone's definition of boring is different. If you are really doing true ring work it's not boring. If a horse rounds up under you and really powers from behind I can't understand how that could be boring. Or perhaps the feeling of being completely in sync with a horse is lost on some???
Regardless, even if you choose trail riding as your ideal riding situation I'd imagine that you'd want your horse balanced and using its body correctly. I most certainly would not want to be on a trail ride with a horse that "has his head up and is alert" IF that horse has its head up because it’s inverted. Tripping is not fun, and the more correctly a horse uses their body the more safe a trail ride will be. Again, this comes form RING work.
Of course showing isn't for everyone and of course it's not the end all be all. BUT, to get back to the POINT of this post...whether you're breeding for showing or trail riding, quality of horse is important. Breeding just to breed, certified or not, color or whatever else, will not produce a horse that will be suitable for either. It's rare to find a person who wants to show a horse as Devine described with such serious conformation problems, and I can't believe someone would want to trail ride a horse like that either. Regardless of temperament, a horse needs to 1) have a body that allows them to use it correctly and 2) know how to use it correctly. Individuals who choose to breed below this quality, for whatever reason, are only creating a dangerous and unfair situation for the horse and the unfortunate soul who is uneducated enough to buy it.

THE PURPOSE OF THE ARTICLE was to show that while sticking to breed standards, you can add a little color to your breeding program, and increase that value of your animals. I believe that in today’s economy it is a smart thing to consider when breeding your animals.
I am beginning to think that Happy just takes opposing position to argue and attack, as she is argumentative even with me when I have not attacked her. Not impressed as I think forums are a great place for discussion, not defensive or attacking conversation.
I disagree, what I see is that HappyAppy defends what she knows to be true and advocates and tries to teach people that really don’t what the knowledge. That is unfortunate. She spent a lot of time on this thread trying to educate about her breed while many folks said stuff left and right with the purpose to degrade.


As I read the post here and many other threads in the past, there seem to be present in conversation, this cliquish mentality, that tend to like too,……. to “attack” ( by making degrading, slighting type comments) towards some selects folks. Although you didn’t directly comment this way toward her, you kinda got drug into (the heat of) it, I guess. I think there was a point to her comments and it wasn’t to attack (at least not as I saw it). I saw it as showing the others on this forum how ridiculous it was to degrade her breeding program while condoning/accepting yours. WHY, because they have firsthand knowledge of yours, but not of hers, yet somehow in their minds that justifies their comments.

AS FAR AS THE ATTACKING GOES, it is comments like these that are what started the animosity.
Its a breeding and gene issue
the bump if you read it was taken over by a color breeder

I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

I've met AppendixQH's stallion, some of her mares, and I've ridden one of her babies. They are VERY nice horses. She didn't buy the stallion as a weanling because of his color and start breeding him as soon as he was physically able. She bought a well experienced, proven stallion and has bred him to her lovely mares.
PHYX has Blessed your breeding program.

i'd have to agree with phyx when the first thing you say about your stallion is that there is no silver dapple genehttp://www.briesrottweilers.com/horses/hondo.pdf
COLOR BREEDER Mentality

On the contrary, not pinging on breeders of any type color based or pedigree based or function based. It seems as though others here do that. I think that there are a lot of misconceptions out there with regard to breeds that also have color. As I said as soon as you mention color,....people flip. My purpose is to educate, and show that there is nothing wrong with haveing conformation and color. But some of the folks on here all ready know it all. Hard to educate closed minded folks. :nerd:

:1bdz: blah blah blah = its about color and the fact he has balls.......

just letting you know what it looks like from an outsider checking you out..........
Same goes with perceptions of American Creme Draft and Cleveland Bay

so the purpose of breeding a rockie to an appaloosa is??......are your rockies trail quality or show quality?.......isn't going to competitions with your horses a way to compare quality within the breed?.......how have your horses done in competition?

Kinda lends to the thinking if they haven't done competition/shows they are not useful or worthy of breeding

"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???
I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme
Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.
Sarcastic and simply silly comments comming from someone that is not knowledegable about the breed.

Yeah, 9.9 out of 10 people believe, correctly, that the shuffle is a fault. There are breed standards for a reason. Just like with the aqha halter horses. No 1100+ pd horse should wear 00 shoes but people are idiots.
The nine on this fourm? I have not come across any evidence about what you say to be true. Quite the contrary though, People tend to pay more money for foundation shuffling appaloosas. Hmmm. More valuable.

I always thought that horses that could not perform 100% in show or competition were deamed back yard family or trail horses.
Or are ruined to the point of companion horses???? AGAIN If you don't show you are (horse and rider) not worthy!

Gee I know some breeders like that....:lalala:

I have and you were on the ground..... I have nothing against you or your breeding practices. But hearing through the grapevine..Your just a back yard type breeder....I have seen your horses out on public rides and if I were looking at the breed to buy. I would run. You do not present your horses in the manner you speak of them...jmo...

I'm interested in one of those shuffling horses, or maybe even one that can tap dance...now that would be entertaining (and worth reproducing even). :starcat:

Robin, I am in defense mode because every single comment that has been fired at me is as though I do something horrible, or underhanded or somehow detrimental. It's just plain silly that pack mentality kicks in with you people. For what?? We are all adults who share a common interest...the pure enjoyment of horses.
I agree.

As for Rocky's, no not terribly familiar. What I've seen locally does not impress me. On that alone I would likely not pursue them. Besides there's just something about adults riding ponies...ehh. And before you throw out the certifications, pics that have been posted show adults mounted on Rockys that appear to be pony sized.

What about the paso fino breed? got any nice things to say about them?
JFYI, most of happy appys breeding stock are very nice sized horses. They are NOT TB size, but they are not TB's.

*********************************************************

All of these comments were made by people to degrade the person and or the breed(or breeding practices). I have seen no apologies. What I see is that is has become the norm for some folks on here to do that, and I dont understand the purpose. But everyone jumps on the band wagon. Sheesh! We are not in high school people, all though some of us are closer than others. :whistle:

:buddies:

Are you suggesting that showing equals a horse having his head down? The shows expect and want the horse using their bodies correctly (pushing off his back end, using his core, etc.). This is done through ring work such as dressage...NOT tie downs, draw reins, etc. Shows do not want horses on the forehand, so show horses actually end up learning to use their bodies CORRECTLY. How is this bad?
I am not sure how old you are or when you started showing, but it doesn’t really matter.

A lot of younger folks have heard of the term but apparently don’t truly understand the definition/implications of it. Readers digest version: back in the day judges had such an influence in shows that they gave points to those who rode there horse with its head carried low because it gave the APEARANCE of a horse that was relaxed and a pleasure to ride. However as people learned this, they began to train their horses (sometimes artificially) to carry its head as low as possible.


"Headset" trends
The sport of western pleasure was criticized in the past on account of an extremely low head position many judges were favoring in the stock horse breeds, known as the "peanut roller." In this head set, horses would carry their heads with the poll far below the level of their withers. This was a problem because it also forced the horse to travel at an extremely slow pace on the "forehand" (carrying too much weight on their front legs instead of rocking it correctly back onto their hind legs). Over long periods of time, moving in this highly artificial frame could cause soundness problems in some horses, and even a sound horse could not properly bring its hindquarters under its body when traveling forward.
This fad and its problems created a poor view of the discipline as a whole, especially by competitors in other equestrian sports.
The industry has since been praised on its actions to change the "peanut roller" fad. In the USEF, this constituted implementing specific rules, including a strict requirement that a horse must have its poll no lower than the height of its withers, or, in the case of the AQHA, a rule stating that the ideal gait shall be performed with a "level topline." Additional rules make an extreme headset impossible by asking exhibitors to extend their horse's jog during a class. In the case of the AQHA, which took particularly strong action to reverse the trend, videos were sent out to all licensed judges to demonstrate what was and was not correct, and the materials also made available to the general public.



Everyone's definition of boring is different. If you are really doing true ring work it's not boring. If a horse rounds up under you and really powers from behind I can't understand how that could be boring. Or perhaps the feeling of being completely in sync with a horse is lost on some???
Regardless, even if you choose trail riding as your ideal riding situation I'd imagine that you'd want your horse balanced and using its body correctly. I most certainly would not want to be on a trail ride with a horse that "has his head up and is alert" IF that horse has its head up because it’s inverted. Tripping is not fun, and the more correctly a horse uses their body the more safe a trail ride will be. Again, this comes form RING work.
Of course showing isn't for everyone and of course it's not the end all be all. BUT, to get back to the POINT of this post...whether you're breeding for showing or trail riding, quality of horse is important. Breeding just to breed, certified or not, color or whatever else, will not produce a horse that will be suitable for either. It's rare to find a person who wants to show a horse as Devine described with such serious conformation problems, and I can't believe someone would want to trail ride a horse like that either. Regardless of temperament, a horse needs to 1) have a body that allows them to use it correctly and 2) know how to use it correctly. Individuals who choose to breed below this quality, for whatever reason, are only creating a dangerous and unfair situation for the horse and the unfortunate soul who is uneducated enough to buy it.

Meaning ring only riding is boring. A lot of folks I know have never or are not comfortable riding out side of the arena /ring. What is the point of doing all that ring work if you don’t get out and use it?

Everyone wants to privilege their style of riding, their breed of horse, their select choice stallions, their breeding practices, etc…. It is kinda like the “my country” right or wrong mentality. It is a shallow and very narrow minded way of thinking with no room to learn new things. It stunts your growth as a human being, or in this case, a horseperson.
:coffee:

Or are ruined to the point of companion horses???? AGAIN If you don't show you are (horse and rider) not worthy!

where are you getting this from? Where did I say this?

Here is the words that came out and somewhat started this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin
In your words I am translating you are breeding because of color and what sells?

In my own words:
I am a breeder, who takes that responsibilty to heart. It's a title i wear proudly.

I am also an analyst. I analyze market trends, so that the "product" i eventually produce, is marketable. Why else do it?

This is a common thing in color oriented breeds, paints, Appys, etc. A solid appy, or breeding stock paint will sell for less, or take longer to sell than a high colored one to the average consumer, who wants that Appy or paint BECAUSE they want the color. It's a reality, and not one that I created.

The associated colors in this breed - chocolate, red chocolate, silver buckskin, etc. are achieved because of the silver modifier, and are in high demand. The silver modifier is linked to a genetic disorder.

SO...if I put the two together (true responsible breeder + market analyst) for me anyway, it equals finding a better way to produce what sells easily.
__________________

The toughest horses turn out the best riders.
Quiet Valley Farm (http://www.qvmountainhorses.com)

Well, you got me. I bow to your abundant ability to Google. Me, I have no interest in breeding. Yes, I am ignorant about most of its aspects. What I do know is what I like. Most of us can pick out the quality animal over the less desirable one. The well put together conformation creates a very pleasing picture with little to nothing out of balance. My point - yours and Happy's breeding attempts have yet to create that 'wow' factor in a horse. Breed is irrelevant, quality shines. So, when you guys come full bore w/ ‘color makes it better’, I say ‘quality makes it better, color is a bonus’.

I am beginning to think that Happy just takes opposing position to argue and attack, as she is argumentative even with me when I have not attacked her. Not impressed as I think forums are a great place for discussion, not defensive or attacking conversation.

Nope, I don't take an opposing position on purpose (that's suicide by forumite on this board :lol:). I've always maintained my position(s), and I'm not the argumentative one in this (or any) thread by a long shot. I've had a number of phone calls and pms between yesterday and today thanking me for the informative posts in here and also expressing fear of consequences if they replied publically, which is quite sad, but also true.

I believe that adults should be able to disagree without making it personal, but on here, behind the monitor, when they run out of real ammunition...the personal (or in this case a chosen breed!) attacks begin.

You won't find a post by me anywhere on this forum that attacks a person. An issue, yes, but never a person. Thats why I've been married for almost 30 years and we're still great friends.

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was arguing with you. I was trying to bring the thread back on track so I quoted you and asked "Is breeding for color a bad thing?" then i went into the origin of a color based breed specifically mentioned in the thread.

You are the one person who has commented in the thread whose face I can't remember...but i will someday.

Well, you got me. I bow to your abundant ability to Google. Me, I have no interest in breeding. Yes, I am ignorant about most of its aspects. What I do know is what I like. Most of us can pick out the quality animal over the less desirable one. The well put together conformation creates a very pleasing picture with little to nothing out of balance. My point - yours and Happy's breeding attempts have yet to create that 'wow' factor in a horse. Breed is irrelevant, quality shines. So, when you guys come full bore w/ ‘color makes it better’, I say ‘quality makes it better, color is a bonus’.

Um...when did you visit or have the opportunity to examine or better still, ride my breeding stock?

Do you know how old the oldest baby is who lists me as breeder?

And do you know how many i have coming in 2010?

It would be this gelding, born at Persimmon Creek Farm (thank you Percy!) April 2007, out of my foundation bred mare, Moon Dancer, who i had bred to a stallion that I chose prior to being shipped here from KY.
He's in KY and will be certified in the next few months, he's racking nicely now, and just about ready to certify. He's also 14.2h, but will grow until he's 5-ish. Dani was certified at 15.2h and finished out at 15.3h the sire was certified at 14.3h finished out at 15.1h so he should finish out around 15-15.1h. He has a beautiful head, high head set for racking, a nice shoulder and hip, but more importantly, he saddle racks up a storm. :gossip: and was sold shortly after this pic was taken for 5K...as a TRAIL companion. :biggrin: the best kind of home.

No WOW factor eh? OK... everybody is entitled to their opinion.

It would be this gelding, born at Persimmon Creek Farm (thank you Percy!) April 2007, out of my foundation bred mare, Moon Dancer.

He's in KY and will be certified in the next few months, he's racking nicely now.

No WOW factor eh? OK... everybody is entitled to their opinion.

So he's 2 and a half?

So he's 2 and a half?


:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

So he's 2 and a half?
Yes, as is typical for the breed. He isn't working, only being ridden lightly, and will be certified when his gait is well set which will take (for him) between 6 and 12 months by being ridden this way. You don't know how they gait under saddle and how long it will take to set until they are ridden.

The breed requires that they be certified by age 4. It takes some of them 2 or 3 years to develop appropriate muscle memory and become set in gait, and some never do, hence breeding choices must be made according to natural ability of both parents in order to produce an animal that gaits naturally and doesn't have to be conditioned into it for so long.

Perhaps I should clarify...since mine are double registered they are required to be certified by their 4th birthday for KMSHA. KMSHA Official breed standards (http://www.kmsha.com/breed_standards.htm) the rest of my comments regarding gait and setting it, still apply.

Yes, as is typical for the breed. He isn't working, only being ridden lightly, and will be certified when his gait is well set which will take (for him) between 6 and 12 months by being ridden this way. You don't know how they gait under saddle and how long it will take to set until they are ridden.

The breed requires that they be certified by age 4. It takes some of them 2 or 3 years to develop appropriate muscle memory and become set in gait, and some never do, hence breeding choices must be made according to natural ability of both parents in order to produce an animal that gaits naturally and doesn't have to be conditioned into it for so long.

That sucks. You'd think the people who set the rules for them to be certified by age 4 would realize there is a good possibility of joint damage resulting from early riding.

That sucks. You'd think the people who set the rules for them to be certified by age 4 would realize there is a good possibility of joint damage resulting from early riding.

These horses aren't running down a track full throttle nor are they worked to death jumping. They are ridden lightly. The gait isn't hard on their joints like others are.

That sucks. You'd think the people who set the rules for them to be certified by age 4 would realize there is a good possibility of joint damage resulting from early riding.

"good possibility" of joint damage?
I don't know of one single Rocky who has joint instability at any age. By virtue of their movement, they don't bang on the joints like trotting or big lick horses do nor do they have repetitive motion injuries/issues like Paso Finos do.

I own several who are between 7 and 14 who are very large heavy bodied animals and were started exactly this way. Just because they are STARTED and certified at age 2-3, doesn't equate to being ridden into the ground.

the 2 1/2 y/o I'm riding here now is ridden bitless in a side pull, and allowed to go at his own speed. I'm focusing on riding him one day per weekend, several hours at a time and letting the exposure that gives him sink in. When he's close to 3, I'll bit him and ask for more shoulder/head lift, and collection, then I'll develop his racking muscles until he can be certified. Muscle memory takes time to develop correctly.

the 3 y/o i had certified this past winter is sitting pretty grazing happily in the brood mare pasture while her adult teeth fully erupt (she just had her wolf teeth pulled too). She's not being ridden at all and won't be until next spring. Then I'll ride her for a while, and then breed her :faint: (YIKES I said BREED her!) at age 4 to my Champagne stud after he is certified next year.

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:
Phyx when at what age did Devine start Paso's Hurricane Katrina fillies? or Devine, you can answer that one.

Oh wait, I found it..they turned 2 in Sept of 07, and they were backed backed by March of '08 at 2 1/2. Doing lots of stuff by that following April same age as mine....
http://forums.somd.com/horses/132746-s-about-time.html

http://forums.somd.com/horses/136551-todays-diosa-pics.html

This is common practice for horses who don't weigh as much as a Volkswagon when they're grown.

:gossip: Soooo what were you saying Phyx?

:popcorn:

AGAIN
Color should not be the sole objective of a breeding program. There are breeds that are considered by some “color breeds” for instance, Appaloosa, Buckskin, Champagne Horse, Cleveland Bay, Dominant Gray, Friesians, Norwegian Fjord Horses, Paint, Palomino, & Pinto. While some of these actually are color breeds (i.e. registered solely due to color), others are breeds with distinct physical characteristics and/or pedigrees that also usually have distinctive or colorful coats. They might be considered a color breed by some folks but technically they are a pedigree-based breed. Some think that the Rocky Mountain Horse is a color breed. It is a pedigree-based breed that put conformation, temperament and gait first. The RMH also have some of the most impressive color that I have ever seen. That is just a BONUS!

This is a common thing in color oriented breeds, paints, Appys, etc. A solid appy, or breeding stock paint will sell for less, or take longer to sell than a high colored one to the average consumer, who wants that Appy or paint BECAUSE they want the color. It's a reality, and not one that I created.

Appys and paints are a PEDIGREE BASED BREED, with Paints given a little more latitude to where their breeding stock comes from. i.e. To be eligible for registry, a Paint's sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds). At least one parent must be a registered American Paint Horse. To be eligible for the Regular Registry, the horse must also exhibit a minimum amount of white hair over unpigmented (pink) skin. See Phyxs QUOTE Below.

*Pinto not paint. Paint is a breed. Pinto is a color. :huggy:

The associated colors in this breed - chocolate, red chocolate, silver buckskin, etc. are achieved because of the silver modifier, and are in high demand. The silver modifier is linked to a genetic disorder.

There are many colors in this breed. With all the base colors subject to several modifiers/dilutes, such as Crème, champagne, silver, dun. There are also roan, gray, etc… Too many to list here. Yes, Silver has been linked to ASD somehow and I am sure research is being done as we speak to find out exactly why.

AGAIN




Appys and paints are a PEDIGREE BASED BREED, with Paints given a little more latitude to where their breeding stock comes from. i.e. To be eligible for registry, a Paint's sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the



There are many colors in this breed. With all the base colors subject to several modifiers/dilutes, such as Crème, champagne, silver, dun. There are also roan, gray, etc… Too many to list here. Yes, Silver has been linked to ASD somehow and I am sure research is being done as we speak to find out exactly why.

O.K. Why are you quoting what happy said to my post to you??????

O.K. Why are you quoting what happy said to my post to you??????

:confused:

What?

:cool:

:confused:

What?

:cool:
you did :lol:

an article on (realitively) new ASD research is here:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/88

you did :lol:

an article on (realitively) new ASD research is here:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/88

psssst having a senior friday moment:killingme

psssst having a senior friday moment:killingme
we could use one of those in this thread. :diva:
thanks for giving her the opportunity to have one! :biggrin:

we could use one of those in this thread. :diva:
thanks for giving her the opportunity to have one! :biggrin:

R we cool?

I am always cool:cool:

:killingme

SIGH!

Happy and Robin I guess I should have had an extra cup of Joe this am.:lmao:


:coffee::coffee::coffee:

I was quoting Robins post from: 10-09-2009, 12:16 PM

:otter:

Nope, I don't take an opposing position on purpose (that's suicide by forumite on this board :lol:). I've always maintained my position(s), and I'm not the argumentative one in this (or any) thread by a long shot. I've had a number of phone calls and pms between yesterday and today thanking me for the informative posts in here and also expressing fear of consequences if they replied publically, which is quite sad, but also true.

I believe that adults should be able to disagree without making it personal, but on here, behind the monitor, when they run out of real ammunition...the personal (or in this case a chosen breed!) attacks begin.

You won't find a post by me anywhere on this forum that attacks a person. An issue, yes, but never a person. Thats why I've been married for almost 30 years and we're still great friends.
I didn't mean for it to sound like I was arguing with you. I was trying to bring the thread back on track so I quoted you and asked "Is breeding for color a bad thing?" then i went into the origin of a color based breed specifically mentioned in the thread.

You are the one person who has commented in the thread whose face I can't remember...but i will someday.

thats about the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. Too bad I cant sight the thread to show your lies cause it magically when poof:rolleyes:

You really need to just shut your endless trap.

you are all insane. I amazed at all the horse people I have met in my life they all know it all. usually the shorter someone has been in to horses the more they think the know. they feel the need to prove themselves by acting like dominating azzes. i can think of plenty around here that havent been into horses long but they talk a big talk. sound like anyone?

you are all insane. I amazed at all the horse people I have met in my life they all know it all. usually the shorter someone has been in to horses the more they think the know. they feel the need to prove themselves by acting like dominating azzes. i can think of plenty around here that havent been into horses long but they talk a big talk. sound like anyone?

:killingmewelcome back!

Phyx when at what age did Devine start Paso's Hurricane Katrina fillies? or Devine, you can answer that one.

Oh wait, I found it..they turned 2 in Sept of 07, and they were backed backed by March of '08 at 2 1/2. Doing lots of stuff by that following April same age as mine....
http://forums.somd.com/horses/132746-s-about-time.html

http://forums.somd.com/horses/136551-todays-diosa-pics.html

This is common practice for horses who don't weigh as much as a Volkswagon when they're grown.

:gossip: Soooo what were you saying Phyx?

I was saying it was pretty darn funny that you're expert who has been doing this for 30 some odd years but the oldest horse you're the breeder of is only 2.5 years old. And it's funny that according to you your stallions are 4 and a yearling. But, hey I guess we have different ideas about quality. :) You've still not yet educated us on what it is that rockies are supposed to look like or move like. Visuals!

While each individual horse is different regardless of breed I would start a horse ground driving at 1-2 years of age. Then, if they're ready light walk-trot as a three year old. Begin cantering at four. My experience in starting horses is with warmbloods. There is a reason there's a minimum age limit at dressage shows for the horses. While many of them are heavier than my stallion I don't think they're as heavy as a VW. My stallion weighs a bit under 1400pds. My mare who is a different, heavier breed is shorter and weighs 1600pds. As both were originally used for driving neither was started undersaddle until age 6.

The weight of the horse is not a determining factor in when a horse should be started undersaddle. Bones and joints are.

• "I think you mean peanut roller! Has nothing to do with shuffling appaloosas. Has everything to do with how showing horses can really take a turn for the worse. Let’s torture our horse with running reins, draw reins and tie-downs and unnecessary crap. People try to make these peanut roller Quarter Horses with their heads dragging down on the ground instead of having their head alert and looking like they know what they're doing. No horse can travel with his head down between his legs. THIS IS ONE OF THE NEGATIVE INFLUENCES OF SHOWING!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention if you have ever been to a Susan Harris or Peggy Brown clinic they would tell you that you are tearing the horse up if you practice this forced technique. I am assuming by you comment, you were a bit confused as to the definition of “Peanut roller”."



Sorry but I must be one of those peanut roller people. How about you come down to my house tomorrow, ride my mare who's head is level at the poll, rounds her back, uses her hind end to move, and not stay heavy on the front end and you tell me how hard it is to get it right. Just because our horses have low heads doesn't mean they aren't paying attention, trust me they are!

It is much more comfortable for a horse when they round their back and use their hind( any knowledgable horse person will say that) have a head that is to high or behind the verical causes the horse to hollow its back which isn't a good thing. Level poll incase you don't know means having a straight line fron hind to ear. I'll attach a photo of a level or clost level poll so you can notice. It's actually more work to have a horse properly do this and a rider also. Most draw reins and such really aren't used when you go out to Breed shows they are there as a reminder. But most Anti-QH people just assume everything and talk sh!t about use.

Let me tell you too, I use to be a jumper until recently and I like doing both but my new QH training as helped me in the hunter ring.

Oh, and before you even ask.. I DO BELIEVE IN INJECTIONS when it is needed for a heavy show horse since it HELPS preserves the joint now! :yay:

It would be this gelding, born at Persimmon Creek Farm (thank you Percy!) April 2007

Dont thank me for past foolish kindness

BlissfulJumper...completely agree with what you're saying!!!! In the post that you referenced me, that quote was not from me, rather was said by someone else and I was trying to quote them! I never post here and did not take the time to figure out how to do so properly. But yes, what you said was the same thing I was saying when I was replying to that particular quote!:buddies:

BlissfulJumper...completely agree with what you're saying!!!! In the post that you referenced me, that quote was not from me, rather was said by someone else and I was trying to quote them! I never post here and did not take the time to figure out how to do so properly. But yes, what you said was the same thing I was saying when I was replying to that particular quote!:buddies:

Ok. I get a little offended like most breed show riders when people who know nothing about QH tell us we don't do have to do anything on our horse and that they are "dead". I wish my mare was dead with her head that low

I was saying it was pretty darn funny that you're expert who has been doing this for 30 some odd years

I would have been 16 and way too busy with student council, honor society, cheerleading and dating my eventual hubby to be considering breeding horses. :rolleyes: Although I did ride, and enjoy horses quite a lot (which included excercising a neighbors Olympic TB and QH). Oh I forgot to mention 1st runner up for Homecoming queen. :duh:

but the oldest horse you're the breeder of is only 2.5 years old. And it's funny that according to you your stallions are 4 and a yearling. But, hey I guess we have different ideas about quality. :)


My oldest ROCKY foal is 2.5 yrs. I bought his mother, bred to a stallion I had chosen. It took 4 (i've had him over a year, so the last year doesn't count - my bad) years of research and 2 gelded colts (One is my daughter's best friend, and one is now for sale as under saddle) who weren't what I wanted in a stallion to choose Hondo. Yes everyone has an opinion.

Oh and regarding my yearling, who happens to have foundation, hard to find bloodlines AND be the only homozygous black Silver Classic Champagne in the Rocky registry, in addition to being among the handfull of homozygous black Classics in ANY breed...he is coming along nicely and showing a saddle rack at liberty. :yay: I already have a list waiting to use his services when he is certified and set up at Harris Paints for AI. I'm well pleased. Had he shown pace, he would have been sold to someone who could use him, OR snip-snipped and sold as a high dollar gelding. But thanks for letting me share.

You've still not yet educated us on what it is that rockies are supposed to look like or move like. Visuals!

Why? No one reading this thread even cares. My actions have already spoken by going the extra mile to take the required training, and attend enough breed seminars to then pass the test to become a qualified Examiner for the breed, and my stallion has already been rewarded for his quality, from someone who DOES know the breed, so I've got nothing to prove to you - who isn't even acquainted with gait or the structure that achieves it.

Plus it's WAY too much fun letting you pick at me to try to make some valid point....so please....do carry on it gives people something entertaining in the horsey forums again. :biggrin: Now lets see if you can do it without attacking me personally. But before you do, I would suggest that you come ride some of my (barnyard) horses. That is if you'd really like to feel what the different ways of going are, and find out why i've chosen the ones I have. I have several who can accomodate you, including Hondo. NOTHING as big as Peanut but certainly big enough to carry you in style. Or you can watch me ride them to show their way of going. Nothing like getting up close and personal with a Rocky (HEY then you could say mine are really sweet too!). Just send me a PM it's a Holiday weekend.

If you'd rather not, Hondo and Comanche the 2.5 y/o dark chocolate and white colt that I gelded in June because he isn't stallion quality IMO (even though he has a beautiful pedigree), will both be at the SMTR Judged ride next weekend (the 18th). Watch them in action and what you see will be smooth riding horses who don't need an accomplished horse person to sort out multi-gaited-ness.

The majority of buyers who come to me are either beginners, or people who've been hurt on horses and want a horse to feel safe riding, so a fast moving horse (ie: something from the show ring retired or otherwise) is NOT what they want. A pure gaited, simple to operate horse fits that bill nicely and is the standard to which i breed/raise and train.

And thanks :huggy: to all of you who have taken a moment to send me a PM and also those who have called me. I appreciate the support. :howdy:

Sorry but I must be one of those peanut roller people. How about you come down to my house tomorrow, ride my mare who's head is level at the poll, rounds her back, uses her hind end to move, and not stay heavy on the front end and you tell me how hard it is to get it right. Just because our horses have low heads doesn't mean they aren't paying attention, trust me they are!

It is much more comfortable for a horse when they round their back and use their hind( any knowledgable horse person will say that) have a head that is to high or behind the verical causes the horse to hollow its back which isn't a good thing. Level poll incase you don't know means having a straight line fron hind to ear. I'll attach a photo of a level or clost level poll so you can notice. It's actually more work to have a horse properly do this and a rider also. Most draw reins and such really aren't used when you go out to Breed shows they are there as a reminder. But most Anti-QH people just assume everything and talk sh!t about use.

Let me tell you too, I use to be a jumper until recently and I like doing both but my new QH training as helped me in the hunter ring.

Oh, and before you even ask.. I DO BELIEVE IN INJECTIONS when it is needed for a heavy show horse since it HELPS preserves the joint now! :yay:

Having the horse level at the poll is much different that what the “peanut roller” of that past was eluding too. The "peanut roller" is a thing of the past and no longer acceptable.
Your picture is of correct form.

"Headset" trends
The sport of western pleasure was criticized in the past on account of an extremely low head position many judges were favoring in the stock horse breeds, known as the "peanut roller." In this head set, horses would carry their heads with the poll far below the level of their withers. This was a problem because it also forced the horse to travel at an extremely slow pace on the "forehand" (carrying too much weight on their front legs instead of rocking it correctly back onto their hind legs). Over long periods of time, moving in this highly artificial frame could cause soundness problems in some horses, and even a sound horse could not properly bring its hindquarters under its body when traveling forward.
This fad and its problems created a poor view of the discipline as a whole, especially by competitors in other equestrian sports.


The industry has since been praised on its actions to change the "peanut roller" fad. In the USEF, this constituted implementing specific rules, including a strict requirement that a horse must have its poll no lower than the height of its withers, or, in the case of the AQHA, a rule stating that the ideal gait shall be performed with a "level topline." Additional rules make an extreme headset impossible by asking exhibitors to extend their horse's jog during a class. In the case of the AQHA, which took particularly strong action to reverse the trend, videos were sent out to all licensed judges to demonstrate what was and was not correct, and the materials also made available to the general public.

thats about the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. Too bad I cant sight the thread to show your lies cause it magically when poof:rolleyes:

You really need to just shut your endless trap.
Seems as though that thread did dissappear, there are only 2 people who can do that, the forum owner and the person who started it if she upgrades to a premo act. Neither of those people are me.

However...i know you printed it off and handed it out, so why don't you find someone who can make it a .pdf and go right ahead and post it. I'd love for peeps to see how nicely you write. OR you can send it to me, I will gladly do it for you.

And while you're at it, why don't you find one single post, in that or any other thread among the thousands I've posted over the years, where I've attacked a single individual on a personal level.

Nor do i call a person's veterinarian behind their back "out of curiosity" just to find out what's going on at their barn when they loose a beloved horse to an infection after a month of intense treatment (like YOU did to me).

Nor do i call people to tell them not to ride with someone "because all their horses are sick", when those very people you called have been riding with me all year long AND have been at my place(s) to see for themselves - and they told you that when you called. Also sound familiar? And all this was well before that thread ever started.

If i have a question, I ask the person themselves. :gossip: THAT's how honest people do it.

I have owned and cared for other peoples horses all of my life and during the 33 years that I have cared for horses I have had relationships with 4 vet practices on a regular basis. I am very much aware that they too have privacy acts and do not divulge info on area barns so with that I will tell you again that I did not call any vet requiring your ill horses.


Being as I board others horses it is my responsibility to limit any foreseen health risk. So if someone that houses a horse or visits with their horse to my facility makes it known to me that day that they are ridding in a group that includes horses from a barn had recently been told of having infectious issues it is my duty tell them...my duty to all of the horses here on the farm.

I could of gone here and announced it would that of been better??? Don’t bother answering that cause I will not respond.

Why? No one reading this thread even cares.
I'm interested to see, after wading through 16 pages of this stuff. :whistle:

I would have been 16 and way too busy with student council, honor society, cheerleading and dating my eventual hubby to be considering breeding horses. Although I did ride, and enjoy horses quite a lot (which included excercising a neighbors Olympic TB and QH). Oh I forgot to mention 1st runner up for Homecoming queen.

I here a ABBA song coming on :diva:

I would have been 16 and way too busy with student council, honor society, cheerleading and dating my eventual hubby to be considering breeding horses. Although I did ride, and enjoy horses quite a lot (which included excercising a neighbors Olympic TB and QH). Oh I forgot to mention 1st runner up for Homecoming queen.

I here a ABBA song coming on :diva:

Isn't 1st runner up, just the second loser.:killingme I am sorry I couldn't help myself!!!:dye:

Um...when did you visit or have the opportunity to examine or better still, ride my breeding stock?

Do you know how old the oldest baby is who lists me as breeder?

And do you know how many i have coming in 2010?

Guess I missed seeing this....

I have not viewed your breeding stock, I have viewed a couple of the results and so my opinion. Course, it's just my opinion.

Your oldest baby with you as breeder? No idea.

What you have coming in 2010? No idea.

You mentioned exercising a neighbor's Olympic TB. Which one would that be, horse that is? I have to admit surprise at an owner of that caliber horse letting anyone other than a professional groom or rider near their horse.

You mentioned exercising a neighbor's Olympic TB. Which one would that be, horse that is?

:yeahthat:

Boy you managed to answer that (sort of) truthfully, but only because you answered backwards and not completely. But at least this time you didn't write like a Catwoman on a rampage. :yay:

I have owned and cared for other peoples horses all of my life and during the 33 years that I have cared for horses I have had relationships with 4 vet practices on a regular basis. I am very much aware that they too have privacy acts and do not divulge info on area barns so with that I will tell you again that I did not call any vet requiring your ill horses.

Never said you did. You called everyone else though. And you never bothered to call or contact me in any way during the strangles thing. Had you done so, I would have told you the truth, which was verified by someone else that you called, and they told you the exact same thing I would have told you directly and told you in an email after the fact.

You DID call MY vet, behind my back, when Cheyenne died rather than ask me directly what had happened. I know you did it, she called ME to tell me. I chose not to mention it to you at the time because it was hard enough dealing with loosing my son's most treasured companion. I chalked it up to experience and let it go, not mentioning it to anyone, because I thought (mistakently) that we were friends.

Being as I board others horses it is my responsibility to limit any foreseen health risk. So if someone that houses a horse or visits with their horse to my facility makes it known to me that day that they are ridding in a group that includes horses from a barn had recently been told of having infectious issues it is my duty tell them...my duty to all of the horses here on the farm.

I could of gone here and announced it would that of been better??? Don’t bother answering that cause I will not respond.

At least one person you called never sets foot on your farm and another one TOLD you she had been to both of my places and had been riding with me all season long.

The truth isn't good enough for you and doesn't make good gossip, even if it's told to you by someone other than me AND maches exactly what i told you.

Never once did you ask me personally about either issue and these things were well before any nastiness on a public forum.

Regarding the two Olympic level horses I excercised as a kid, both were retired, and had been purchased by a friend's parents as a pair. I was 2 years younger than my friend. We rode them together through the 2 years of high school we shared, and when she went to college, her parents asked me to continue excercising and caring for them and the old mustang pony who kept them company until they were sold, which I did, happily.

Guess I missed seeing this....

I have not viewed your breeding stock, I have viewed a couple of the results and so my opinion. Course, it's just my opinion.


Ok I'll bite, which horses that are the result of my breeding stock have you seen and in what context?

Oh, please tell me, since I've already shared my credentials, what qualifies you to be an authority on any breed of gaited or non gaited horse and their conformation/quality?

It would be nice to have someone local who is knowledgable, give an honest, informed opinion with consructive critism.

Excerpt:
There’s an old horseman’s saying that, “a good horse is a good color,” meaning that qualities like a horse’s work ethic, athletic talent and disposition are what matter most, not the color of its coat. But let’s be honest. Most of us have a favorite color and if we can find a suitable horse that happens to be that special hue then it’s even more desirable.

There’s nothing wrong with favoring a certain color of horse. Entire registries owe their existence to the allure of remarkably marked or colored horses. Without breeders and riders who passionately prefer certain colors, the world of horses would be a nearly monochromatic scene of solid bay and chestnut… not that there’s anything wrong with a horse in a plain brown wrapper. They have their fans, too!

HI Spy: Are You Color Blind? - HorseChannel.com (http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-news/features/Hi-spy/horse-colors.aspx)

My Gosh......17 pages of this endless crap. You really need to get a life. How can anyone run a breeding farm when all they do is argue on the forums?

My Gosh......17 pages of this endless crap. You really need to get a life. How can anyone run a breeding farm when all they do is argue on the forums?

:yay:

I would have been 16 and way too busy with student council, honor society, cheerleading and dating my eventual hubby to be considering breeding horses. :rolleyes: Although I did ride, and enjoy horses quite a lot (which included excercising a neighbors Olympic TB and QH). Oh I forgot to mention 1st runner up for Homecoming queen. :duh:



My oldest ROCKY foal is 2.5 yrs. I bought his mother, bred to a stallion I had chosen. It took 4 (i've had him over a year, so the last year doesn't count - my bad) years of research and 2 gelded colts (One is my daughter's best friend, and one is now for sale as under saddle) who weren't what I wanted in a stallion to choose Hondo. Yes everyone has an opinion.

Oh and regarding my yearling, who happens to have foundation, hard to find bloodlines AND be the only homozygous black Silver Classic Champagne in the Rocky registry, in addition to being among the handfull of homozygous black Classics in ANY breed...he is coming along nicely and showing a saddle rack at liberty. :yay: I already have a list waiting to use his services when he is certified and set up at Harris Paints for AI. I'm well pleased. Had he shown pace, he would have been sold to someone who could use him, OR snip-snipped and sold as a high dollar gelding. But thanks for letting me share.



Why? No one reading this thread even cares. My actions have already spoken by going the extra mile to take the required training, and attend enough breed seminars to then pass the test to become a qualified Examiner for the breed, and my stallion has already been rewarded for his quality, from someone who DOES know the breed, so I've got nothing to prove to you - who isn't even acquainted with gait or the structure that achieves it.

Plus it's WAY too much fun letting you pick at me to try to make some valid point....so please....do carry on it gives people something entertaining in the horsey forums again. :biggrin: Now lets see if you can do it without attacking me personally. But before you do, I would suggest that you come ride some of my (barnyard) horses. That is if you'd really like to feel what the different ways of going are, and find out why i've chosen the ones I have. I have several who can accomodate you, including Hondo. NOTHING as big as Peanut but certainly big enough to carry you in style. Or you can watch me ride them to show their way of going. Nothing like getting up close and personal with a Rocky (HEY then you could say mine are really sweet too!). Just send me a PM it's a Holiday weekend.

If you'd rather not, Hondo and Comanche the 2.5 y/o dark chocolate and white colt that I gelded in June because he isn't stallion quality IMO (even though he has a beautiful pedigree), will both be at the SMTR Judged ride next weekend (the 18th). Watch them in action and what you see will be smooth riding horses who don't need an accomplished horse person to sort out multi-gaited-ness.

The majority of buyers who come to me are either beginners, or people who've been hurt on horses and want a horse to feel safe riding, so a fast moving horse (ie: something from the show ring retired or otherwise) is NOT what they want. A pure gaited, simple to operate horse fits that bill nicely and is the standard to which i breed/raise and train.

And thanks :huggy: to all of you who have taken a moment to send me a PM and also those who have called me. I appreciate the support. :howdy:

Maybe you should do less talking on these forums and more reading from our country's finest agricultural education institutions. I know from a fact that this crazy wahoo attitude of breaking and riding horses at a young age affects their bone and soft tissue development.

I took a mare on from someone locally when I was 15 who had been broken and used for trail riding at the age of 2-3. I received the mare for free because she was bucking everyone off, well the adults that were on her were too big for her undeveloped back. She was a tennessee quarter pony cross and anyone who has read the bone development studies know that gaited horses take longer for the bone density to reach 90 % and their soft tissue development to support that bone structure isn't matured until age 6.

I took the mare and gave her time off then rebroke her so she could trust people again. Then I took her at 16 to a real Grand Prix dressage stable with real olympic coaches that came and gave clinics and all of the horses in the barn that I was responsible for grooming were worth more than the average home price in Southern Maryland. (I wasn't concerned with boys they are a waste of time at 16 but I was providing myself with real horse educational opportunities such as sponsored trips to FL)

I had a hard time developing my mare's hind end because at the age of 4 she was showing signs of weakness in her stifle and back that are concurrent with hard work (i.e. 10 year old race horse on the track at 4 years old). If you have any questions about how that can happen please feel free to visit my vet Kent Allen at Virginia Equine in Middleburg. He will be happy to walk you through different radiographs of horses in work at different ages.

The mare went on to win jumpers at the 3'6" level and winning training level events at only 14.1 hands but she always had a specific hind end strength training regiment to overcome the damage done in her younger years. At 16 I was more worried about rubbing liniment and DMSO on my ponies hind end then curling my hair for the football game so I could be homecoming queen. I went on to become homecoming queen in college and sold my pony to a rather wealthy family with a handicapped girl who wanted a personal therapy companion. I created a safe smooth gaited riding experience from a non-fancy thrown away pony because she didn't gait the or have the pretty color and she sold for more money than probably 4 of your horses..

Radiographic studies on the acquisition of bone mineral in horses from one
day of age to 27 years have shown that maximum bone mineral content (BMC) is
not achieved until the horse is six years old.

....I know from a fact that this crazy wahoo attitude of breaking and riding horses at a young age affects their bone and soft tissue development.

Following breed club guidelines to START UNDER SADDLE and CERTIFY as correct representations of the breed by a specific age, according to those guidelines does NOT consitute a crazy wahoo attitude of "breaking" and riding a horse.

Furthermore, their needs to be breed specific bone density studies in order to compare apples to apples. Bone density is different according to genetics. Iclandics and halfies are small horses, with a great deal of bone density, as are the mountain horses so i imagine those studies would be quite different than those of an arab or even a QH.

Maybe you should do less talking on these forums and more reading from our country's finest agricultural education institutions. ....I......sold my pony to a rather wealthy family with a handicapped girl who wanted a personal therapy companion. I created a safe smooth gaited riding experience from a non-fancy thrown away pony because she didn't gait the or have the pretty color and she sold for more money than probably 4 of your horses..


WHY must people make their posts a personal attack? (pack mentality again?) Your post would have been a terrific read, otherwise.

I do believe I've proven that others who are "revered" on this board also put horses under saddle at age 2 - horses from a breed with no guidelines requiring that it be done by a certain age, yet it's OK because those people are "special" somehow?

Following breed club guidelines to START UNDER SADDLE and CERTIFY as correct representations of the breed by a specific age, according to those guidelines does NOT consitute a crazy wahoo attitude of "breaking" and riding a horse.

Furthermore, their needs to be breed specific bone density studies in order to compare apples to apples. Bone density is different according to genetics. Iclandics and halfies are small horses, with a great deal of bone density, as are the mountain horses so i imagine those studies would be quite different than those of an arab or even a QH.



WHY must people make their posts a personal attack? (pack mentality again?) Your post would have been a terrific read, otherwise.

I do believe I've proven that others who are "revered" on this board also put horses under saddle at age 2 - horses from a breed with no guidelines requiring that it be done by a certain age, yet it's OK because those people are "special" somehow?

Not revering anyone who starts horses under saddle at any point in time. But I am proving that horses who are under 6 years old should be in a training routine fitted to their height and weight ratio with consideration to their bone density and their muscle and soft tissue development.

Dressage horses are started as young as 3 but they are not put under stress or required to do upper level movements until they are fully developed. i.e. good trainers are working them from the ground building from 10 mins to 20 mins.

I think last year's performance of Eight Belle's in the derby proved what happens when horses are worked heavily before their bodies can develop.

And you are certified by a "breed club" not a worldwide professionally recognized organization. And we are defining "start" under saddle to cantering, trail riding and showing.. The US Eventing Association has made the minimum age requirements for competing at age 4 and then age 5 for preliminary and age 6 for horses competing in intermediate.

And the USDF has restricted competition to 4 year olds and up.

Fillies and colts three years of age and under may only show as Sport Horse Prospects. Mares and stallions age four and over may only show in Breeding Stock classes. Geldings of any age may NOT show in breeding stock classes/categories. Geldings age three and under may only show in sport horse classes/categories

Not a personal attack but as a member of other professional organizations, any club that would recommend serious training below age 4 is viewed as a bunch of wahoos.

Meaning ring only riding is boring. A lot of folks I know have never or are not comfortable riding out side of the arena /ring. What is the point of doing all that ring work if you don’t get out and use it?


I ride the majority of the time in the ring. I don't get bored with it because we are always working on a different skill for our discipline. OCCASIONALLY I will go on a trail ride with a small group of people. My horse and I take walks down the road to the water, and sometimes ride in the big pasture.

....any club that would recommend serious training below age 4 is viewed as a bunch of wahoos.

Well alright-ee then. I'll be sure and share your opinion to the breed club(s) in question. :yay: Oh wait...you post annonymously. Scratch that.

I don't make the club rules, I just follow them.

Not a personal attack .....

These quotes (which you conveniently left off your post) would be where it became a personal thing.... :biggrin:

Maybe you should do less talking on these forums and more reading from our country's finest agricultural education institutions. ....I......sold my pony ......for more money than probably 4 of your horses..

But thanks for the interesting additional read.
And FWIW, I'm not saying I disagree. I personally don't stress anything during their early years. They're put under saddle & certified according to club guidelines because I have too, then they're ridden lightly until sold, just to keep them fresh. I have enough adults available for riding, that I don't have too 'stress' the young ones.
:gossip: although mine have enough ground work done prior to ever getting on their backs, that the occasional group or private trail ride doesn't stress them at all physically or mentally. :buddies:

I ride the majority of the time in the ring. I don't get bored with it because we are always working on a different skill for our discipline. OCCASIONALLY I will go on a trail ride with a small group of people. My horse and I take walks down the road to the water, and sometimes ride in the big pasture.

That's cool! It is good to get out of the ring sometimes.

OMG I can't argue with stubborn.. no wonder you call yourself 'appy'

Why did the American indian ride Appaloosas to battle ? So they would be good and mad when they got there.

Well you posted a whole thread with a description of each of your horses and discussed their sales on this forum.. as to use that to prove your expertise. I just thought I would share with you how I train my horses and how much the sell for too.. I guess you can dish it out.. but you can't take it..

quote"Why did the American indian ride Appaloosas to battle ? So they would be good and mad when they got there."


WHOA now.....Easy on the Apps! Ride em' before you knock um'. Sure there are a few "PAINT" opinions out there..LOL

I know from a fact that this crazy wahoo attitude of breaking and riding horses at a young age affects their bone and soft tissue development.

I took a mare on from someone locally when I was 15 who had been broken and used for trail riding at the age of 2-3.

I took the mare and gave her time off then rebroke her so she could trust people again.



Starting a horse under saddle and/or breaking: two different approaches to create a rideable horse?
:coffee:

quote"Why did the American indian ride Appaloosas to battle ? So they would be good and mad when they got there."


WHOA now.....Easy on the Apps! Ride em' before you knock um'. Sure there are a few "PAINT" opinions out there..LOL

DITTO!

OMG I can't argue with stubborn.. no wonder you call yourself 'appy'

Why did the American indian ride Appaloosas to battle ? So they would be good and mad when they got there.

Well you posted a whole thread with a description of each of your horses and discussed their sales on this forum.. as to use that to prove your expertise. I just thought I would share with you how I train my horses and how much the sell for too.. I guess you can dish it out.. but you can't take it..
:lol: I posted that WOW factor thread BECAUSE of a comment that was made in this particular thread regarding a "wow" factor the forumite claimed she had never seen coming from my breeding program - which not one single forumite including her has EVER requested to see in person-BTW and i did invite them. I believe the results of my program DO have it - my opinion of course - so i posted the thread containing Rocky foals that I have bred.

I found it curious that you decided to sprinkle your (otherwise noteworthy) comments with a few personal barbs, you denied doing it, so I pointed it out for you again.

I follow certification under saddle guidelines not created by me, AND i even said I agree with what you are saying about stressing young horse bodies.

How do those things equate to not being able to dish it out, not taking it, or my being stubborn? :confused: No worries tho. I'm easily confused.