If a person has an accident while training a horse, is accused of abuse, and tried, not convicted, but fined and will have the charge removed after a probationary period, should they still be allowed to work with horses in the future?
or
work with horses, not training, and under owner supervised situations.
also,
is it acceptable to continually harass this person after the situation has been resolved in court? well over two years ago now. (called three times in one night and verbally abused by the same person)?

Yes the individual still has all of thier own horses, and there have never been anymore "isssues" nor will there ever be becasue the incident in question was a once in a lifetime HORRIBLE ACCIDENT.

I am so mad that some people cant let an accident (granted a horrible accident) go after having been resolved in court over two years ago).

if you know names I dont think this is the place to name them, so please dont. I am just irritated with the situation, would like to vent and get the opinions of people I have come to respect.

What horrible thing did you do?

I do not have horses, I have cats. And if you had had an "accident" with cats in the past, you would never - EVER - get near one of my cats. Ever. Better safe than sorry, I say.

Not me, I refuse to deal with other peoples animals because of this though.
I never want to be accused of abuse for something accidental.

It basically equates to walking someone elses dog, having the dog pull away and getting hurt because of it, be it by fighting with another dog or hit by a car. Sure, preventable, but the animal was under your supervision, therefor you are liable. Is it abuse (by reason of neglect?), or an accident? and sould the reprecusions of it linger as badly as they have.

Not me, I refuse to deal with other peoples animals because of this though.
I never want to be accused of abuse for something accidental.

It basically equates to walking someone elses dog, having the dog pull away and getting hurt because of it, be it by fighting with another dog or hit by a car. Sure, preventable, but the animal was under your supervision, therefor you are liable. Is it abuse (by reason of neglect?), or an accident? and sould the reprecusions of it linger as badly as they have.

If I knew you and knew you weren't some igtard who didn't know how to deal with animals, I'd chalk it up to an accident and not hold you responsible. Stuff happens.

So what happened? The horse went off and got hurt?

if they were tried and not convicted, then i'd say yes they should technically be allowed to continue working with horses for pay. however, i would suggest that they do all that they can to pursue education about horse training, and also consider the safety of the facilities they work at so that the accident does not happen again. and i do not think its right to continue harrassing anyone about a past event like that.

If a person has an accident while training a horse, is accused of abuse, and tried, not convicted, but fined and will have the charge removed after a probationary period,

HUH.. Not conviceted, but fined..

Not Convicted but the charges will be removed after probation??

Doesn't Probation and Fines come with a conviction??

I guess it really depends on the situation. Accidents happen and then there are people who do really stupid things that cause accidents. I would have to know the situation and the person. If they were not convicted....well OJ wasn't convicted either :whistle: nevermind. It depends.

Sometimes horses dont tie well.
tying lessons are dangerous in adult horses who dont trust.
Not earning trust before tying equals a nasty accident.
this is where the he said she said comes in.
The horse got HURT! badly. from paniking. more he said she said.
Abuse allegations were leveled, not by the owner, by other people on site.
Went to trial.
Paid fines equal to the value of basically the basically ruined horse.
(individual was already going to do that regardless of court)
Over two years ago.
My friend still has guilt, is not training anyones elses horses EVER again. Thier chioce.
Is starting a horse related business (going to school for this business) and advertising.
The abuse accuser called three times in one evening threating to basically blackball and badmouth them out of business after finding a business card advertising the new business.
My friend has paid, and is still paying, fo basically an accident, a HORRIBLE one no question. But the intent was never to cause harm.

Well, since we don't know the whole story it's hard to say but, someone who is teaching a young horse how to tie should know how to do so safely. If they do not know that I have to say that I would not want that person working with my horses.

Is this the horse that flipped over and broke it's back? If so, from what I heard of that story (and perhaps you can clear it up because it is possible that I heard a fabrication) it WAS idiocy to such a degree that I would have to agree with an abuse charge.

I don't understand why the accuser would continue to contact the person and threaten them. But, as a fellow horse owner if I believed that a so called trainer was likely to cause harm I'd sure as heck spread the word.

*Just saw that you added that they aren't planing on training. Is it possible for you to tell us what they are planning on doing? Boarding, transporting, breeding, etc. All of those would most likely be a "heck no" in book.

No, natural hoof stuff, personally I dont understand why they are bothering.

The horse was older, 5-8 with established trouble tying. And no it did not break its back it had temporary sight loss as well as even more trust issues than it had started with.

But there was a lot of back and forth about the method, which was the question of abuse. But the method that was utilized was way old school and trust was not established when a tying "lesson" was intitiated at a second meeting.

I dont personally approve of the method, but the intent to injure simply wasnt present when the horse panicked, and knew from previous experience that pulling super hard got them free. It didnt work and the horse got badly hung up and panicked worse.

There is also something called Slander, so the accusing party needs to tread carefully. Accidents happen when dealing with 1000 pound animals. Not everyone has the same training methods either. It's up to the animals owner to find out ahead of time what methods will be tried in relation to the horses problems. That is a huge part of being a responsible owner, to interview the trainer at length.

There is also something called Slander, so the accusing party needs to tread carefully. Accidents happen when dealing with 1000 pound animals. Not everyone has the same training methods either. It's up to the animals owner to find out ahead of time what methods will be tried in relation to the horses problems. That is a huge part of being a responsible owner, to interview the trainer at length.


I so argree.... when she took the horse to that trainer...was technique ever discussed? did they agree to try that method?I have a friend who took her young horse to a very well known and respected trainer....while the horse was tied it got spooked, pulled back, broke free and flipped over....hitting its head, suffered a brain injury and was later euthanized.....Inscurance paid the owner and then went after trainer.....you have to know who you are leaving your horse with and what they plan on doing with your horse while it is in their care....accidents can still happen

What is tying?

Can't any legal action be taken on the people harassing her? At the very least, some sort of restraining order where they can't call her or be near her? That's not something she should be stuck dealing with.

I've heard accidents happen with horses all the time and people continually are allowed to work with horses after this accidents. They're unpredictable, as can be any animal. If someone wants her to continue to work with their horses then more power to them. If it was settled in court then each person can make their own decision. :shrug:

What is tying?

I think they're saying they were training the horse to stand tied to something (like a hitching post, cross ties, etc.).





What exactly was done to the horse? What method was used?

Can't any legal action be taken on the people harassing her? At the very least, some sort of restraining order where they can't call her or be near her? That's not something she should be stuck dealing with.

I've heard accidents happen with horses all the time and people continually are allowed to work with horses after this accidents. They're unpredictable, as can be any animal. If someone wants her to continue to work with their horses then more power to them. If it was settled in court then each person can make their own decision. :shrug:

You ever saddle a horse ?........

I think they're saying they were training the horse to stand tied to something (like a hitching post, cross ties, etc.).

What exactly was done to the horse? What method was used?

If so, I don't understand how that could be dangerous. I would think that a 5 - 8 y/o horse would already be accustomed to being tied to a hitching post.

If so, I don't understand how that could be dangerous. I would think that a 5 - 8 y/o horse would already be accustomed to being tied to a hitching post.

You'd think. Probably his owners along the way just left him out in a field and didn't mess with him. There are a ton of people who just breed or get horses and don't halter train them even.

You'd think. Probably his owners along the way just left him out in a field and didn't mess with him. There are a ton of people who just breed or get horses and don't halter train them even.

Thanks. It has been years since I have been around horses on a regular basis and never encountered such a thing.

Abuse allegations were leveled, not by the owner, by other people on site.
Went to trial. Paid fines equal to the value of basically the basically ruined horse. If it went to trial, they were either aquitted or found guilty.
How are fines leveled if not convicted?

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!

Opinion: I'd never pay $25-$40 for a piece of metal that should only cost $5 or $10. :biggrin: Carry on!

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!

So is riding...you NEVER know what can happen LOL...

If it went to trial, they were either aquitted or found guilty.
How are fines leveled if not convicted?

there are convitions that are 'forgiven' if the act that brought them to court is not repeated.

the way I remember and understand the proceedings I attended were that yes since the horse was in this persons care they are liable, therefore in the wrong, but that the event was in esscence an accident.

If I am wrong, then sorry, but that is how I recall the proceedings.

there are convitions that are 'forgiven' if the act that brought them to court is not repeated.

the way I remember and understand the proceedings I attended were that yes since the horse was in this persons care they are liable, therefore in the wrong, but that the event was in esscence an accident.

If I am wrong, then sorry, but that is how I recall the proceedings.




sounds like they had to pay retrobution (sp?) for loss of use of the horse,because it was in their care ... but not forund guilty of abuse ...????

[QUOTE=campinmutt;4017668]sounds like they had to pay retrobution (sp?) for loss of use of the horse,because it was in their care ... but not forund guilty of abuse ...????[/QUOT

This individual still has the horses they owned previous to this mayhem, and yes they paid retrobution for the 'worth' of the injured horse, they planned on doing that anyway, they had planned on paying all vet costs for the accident.

I dont really remember much about that. I just think its nuts that someone is so still stuck on an accident, that is apparently fairly common, that they will go to extreme that the accuser has.

I was also looking for some opinions from the folks here, from the extremely conservative, to the extremely liberal equine folks.

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!


I was taught to tie using an "emergency release knot" that a horse cannot break free of, but can be pulled out, no matter how tight in an emergency. Teaching a horse that pulling equals an escape cant be a good thing.

Your nifty ring would be nice for a horse that doesnt pull at thier lead when tied. Not everyone is trained that well.

If so, I don't understand how that could be dangerous. I would think that a 5 - 8 y/o horse would already be accustomed to being tied to a hitching post.

You never know what a horse is going to do. My handsome buckskin who has never shown a bit of stress with being tied anyplace or time freaked out for no reason and by the time I got back across my stable yard to get him he was already down and hanging. I pulled the quick release tie and after a few shaky moments he got to his feet again with no damage to anything but my saddle. He has never done it since, I have no idea why he flipped out or if he will do it again. Animals do random shyte that can't be predicted and when they are 1300lbs of panicked idiot there often isn't a lot you can do either until they run their course.

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!

I've seen these before but unless you put a knot in the end of the lead rope wouldn't it slide through the tie blocker if the horse pulled enough?

[QUOTE=campinmutt;4017668]sounds like they had to pay retrobution (sp?) for loss of use of the horse,because it was in their care ... but not forund guilty of abuse ...????[/QUOT

This individual still has the horses they owned previous to this mayhem, and yes they paid retrobution for the 'worth' of the injured horse, they planned on doing that anyway, they had planned on paying all vet costs for the accident.

I dont really remember much about that. I just think its nuts that someone is so still stuck on an accident, that is apparently fairly common, that they will go to extreme that the accuser has.

I was also looking for some opinions from the folks here, from the extremely conservative, to the extremely liberal equine folks.


I'd say that since trainers are not regulated by law, this ‘trainer’ can do as they please, i.e. continue to train/not to train - whatever. The 'victim' should cease harassing the 'trainer' directly but should express her opinion to friends and acquaintances and tell of her experience as she see fit. Maybe she needs more time to ‘get over it’ than you. Our attachments to our animals are emotional, it’s not like a car the mechanic messed up on.

Opinion: NEVER NEVER NEVER tie a horse, not any horse. I always use the Aussie Ring by Clinton Anderson. Tying is dangerous for all horses because you can never be prepared for what may happen (spook, etc) Carry on!

I like to loop a piece of baling twine around whatever I'm tying to, then tie the lead rope through that. The horse can pull at the rope and it will hold, but if there is an emergency and the horse flips out, the baling twine will break. It will also keep your cross ties, trailer ties, etc. from breaking, thus reducing the need to replace them every time some idiot horse freaks out. Pretty cheap solution too :coffee:

I like to loop a piece of baling twine around whatever I'm tying to, then tie the lead rope through that. The horse can pull at the rope and it will hold, but if there is an emergency and the horse flips out, the baling twine will break. It will also keep your cross ties, trailer ties, etc. from breaking, thus reducing the need to replace them every time some idiot horse freaks out. Pretty cheap solution too :coffee:

another great use for bailing twine !!

[QUOTE=ElliesMom;4017683]


I'd say that since trainers are not regulated by law, this ‘trainer’ can do as they please, i.e. continue to train/not to train - whatever. The 'victim' should cease harassing the 'trainer' directly but should express her opinion to friends and acquaintances and tell of her experience as she see fit. Maybe she needs more time to ‘get over it’ than you. Our attachments to our animals are emotional, it’s not like a car the mechanic messed up on.

Thats a great intelligent response!

Opinion: I'd never pay $25-$40 for a piece of metal that should only cost $5 or $10. :biggrin: Carry on!

:high5:

I like to loop a piece of baling twine around whatever I'm tying to, then tie the lead rope through that. The horse can pull at the rope and it will hold, but if there is an emergency and the horse flips out, the baling twine will break. It will also keep your cross ties, trailer ties, etc. from breaking, thus reducing the need to replace them every time some idiot horse freaks out. Pretty cheap solution too :coffee:

Great idea!

i have used the blocker tie rings before. i kinda like them. depending on how you put the rope through, it lets them pull away easily or slowly, and you can catch the end of the rope before it pulls through. but worth $30? don't know about that. they are just like half of a loose ring bit. i like teaching them not to pull, not a huge fan of things that break, but keep a knife handy.

I like to loop a piece of baling twine around whatever I'm tying to, then tie the lead rope through that. The horse can pull at the rope and it will hold, but if there is an emergency and the horse flips out, the baling twine will break. It will also keep your cross ties, trailer ties, etc. from breaking, thus reducing the need to replace them every time some idiot horse freaks out. Pretty cheap solution too :coffee:

I do that too with the bailing twine. I also like those ties that have velcrow in the middle and have emergency release snaps on the ends. Elam has them at his store.

there are convitions that are 'forgiven' if the act that brought them to court is not repeated.

the way I remember and understand the proceedings I attended were that yes since the horse was in this persons care they are liable, therefore in the wrong, but that the event was in esscence an accident.

If I am wrong, then sorry, but that is how I recall the proceedings.

Accidents happen! That is why all Trainers should be insured. Any time you provide “care and custody” (boarding or training) of an animal, you are potentially liable and should be insured to CYA.

I have had friend tie their own horse at a trailer, and they left the lead rope long enough for the horse to nibble some grass. The horse got hung up and broke its neck. VERY unfortunate! Walking away from a tied horse has the POTENTIAL of being dangerous no matter the training. But we have all done it at one point. BUT walking away from an UNTRAINED horse or allowing the horse to pull back to the point of injury isn’t the smartest thing to do and the court could still lean to the side of negligence. Still don’t know ALL the circumstances. ABUSE, NO. Negligence, ….Probably.

Every horse is different. The training should be adapted to the individual horse. Not every horse responds the same to the same type of training. Having been dealing with rehab horses with a variety of training levels (mostly lack thereof), and having to deal with training a lot of mature horses to safely tie (that have never been taught to do it safely before). It is hard to imagine how the horse could have gotten that seriously injured with the trainer right there. It is all hind sight now, but If you are training a horse and it panics, I would think it would be in everyone’s best interest to deal with the panic situation first and for most. It is hard to teach (continue a lesson) a horse that is coming unglued. SOMETIMES IT JUST TAKES TIME.

I was taught to tie using an "emergency release knot" that a horse cannot break free of, but can be pulled out, no matter how tight in an emergency. Teaching a horse that pulling equals an escape cant be a good thing.

I am not a big fan of breakaway halters and such for that very reason. It is not a good thing for a horse to learn that if it pulls hard enough that it can get free. But you have to be there to release a quick release knot, or else what’s the point.

I like to loop a piece of baling twine around whatever I'm tying to, then tie the lead rope through that. The horse can pull at the rope and it will hold, but if there is an emergency and the horse flips out, the baling twine will break. It will also keep your cross ties, trailer ties, etc. from breaking, thus reducing the need to replace them every time some idiot horse freaks out. Pretty cheap solution too :coffee:

This is a very good “pony club” method.

********************************************************
Harassment is wrong!
Slander is wrong!
Your friend should have the right to train, but it sounds like your friend has set new limitations on the abilities they have.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY!
Trainers should know their limitations, and TRAINERS SHOULD HAVE INSURANCE!
:howdy:

Think about it if you get into a car accident, and it’s your fault, should your driving privileges be revoked?

That is why they call it an accident.
:coffee: