I see ....by the signs at the entrance to Chesapeake Ranch Estates... that Golden West Way is closed to thru traffic until further notice....

What's that all about?

How's it going to impact the school bus routes?

I see ....by the signs at the entrance to Chesapeake Ranch Estates... that Golden West Way is closed to thru traffic until further notice....

What's that all about?

How's it going to impact the school bus routes?

Don't think buses are running today

I see ....by the signs at the entrance to Chesapeake Ranch Estates... that Golden West Way is closed to thru traffic until further notice....

What's that all about?

How's it going to impact the school bus routes?

You can always call the Board of Education, the county or call the office. All agencies have been notified of the cliff condition under the road. The only issue now are the Army Corps of Engineers and of course the Federal Government relating to the environmental laws which protect the tiger beetle habitat... The safety of our Children comes first as well as the safety of residents that use that area of the road. That is the only recourse we have until the Environmentalist change their way of thinking...
To date, the Tiger Beetles continue to take precedence.

My Opinion:
Much the same way as a criminal having more rights than a victim... We are expected to run from them for our own protection... If you are living along the cliffs, you are expected to abandon your own homes for your own protection? I'm sorry but I think the safety of humans should take precedence over criminals and bugs... We should be allowed to SQUASH them both!

On a side note:
I was notified in email that there will be a Town Meeting regarding the Tiger Beetle issue at the Prince Frederick Public Library but was not told the dates. Instead it stated that the information will be posted in the Round Up Times. I just hope everyone that is concerned gets the Newsletter in plenty of time to re-adjust their schedules to make the meeting.

Maybe those who don't read the forums might be able to clarify this for us....

June

You can always call the Board of Education, the county or call the office. All agencies have been notified of the cliff condition under the road. The only issue now are the Army Corps of Engineers and of course the Federal Government relating to the environmental laws which protect the tiger beetle habitat... The safety of our Children comes first as well as the safety of residents that use that area of the road. That is the only recourse we have until the Environmentalist change their way of thinking...
To date, the Tiger Beetles continue to take precedence.

My Opinion:
Much the same way as a criminal having more rights than a victim... We are expected to run from them for our own protection... If you are living along the cliffs, you are expected to abandon your own homes for your own protection? I'm sorry but I think the safety of humans should take precedence over criminals and bugs... We should be allowed to SQUASH them both!

On a side note:
I was notified in email that there will be a Town Meeting regarding the Tiger Beetle issue at the Prince Frederick Public Library but was not told the dates. Instead it stated that the information will be posted in the Round Up Times. I just hope everyone that is concerned gets the Newsletter in plenty of time to re-adjust their schedules to make the meeting.

Maybe those who don't read the forums might be able to clarify this for us....

June

Amen. It's about time someone either asked the big questions or alerted the membership about what is going on.
Once again the environmentalist whack jobs figure that animals have more rights than humans. I'm sorry that is completely off center and just plain wrong. If they want to live that way let them, just not where they can force the rest of us to adhere to their views when most people don't subscribe. Property owners have rights too but apparently not real ones or the ones that they do have are being transferred to the beetle. It's time for the owners stood up and told those in charge they aren't going to take it anymore.
As for the possible meeting, why is this information being held back by either the county, the Feds or the BOD? Don't you think this is information that we owners should have immediately. What are the chances that the information is being held back for nefarious purposes? Shouldn't this be in the Recorder or on the boards seeing as it affects everyone in CRE?

Amen. It's about time someone either asked the big questions or alerted the membership about what is going on.
Once again the environmentalist whack jobs figure that animals have more rights than humans. I'm sorry that is completely off center and just plain wrong. If they want to live that way let them, just not where they can force the rest of us to adhere to their views when most people don't subscribe. Property owners have rights too but apparently not real ones or the ones that they do have are being transferred to the beetle. It's time for the owners stood up and told those in charge they aren't going to take it anymore.
As for the possible meeting, why is this information being held back by either the county, the Feds or the BOD? Don't you think this is information that we owners should have immediately. What are the chances that the information is being held back for nefarious purposes? Shouldn't this be in the Recorder or on the boards seeing as it affects everyone in CRE?

If people are dumb enough to build a house/buy a house on the edge of a cliff and expect it to stay there forever....they deserve to lose the house to the bay. Idiots.

If people are dumb enough to build a house/buy a house on the edge of a cliff and expect it to stay there forever....they deserve to lose the house to the bay. Idiots.

It's one thing to have you're property erode and another to be told you can't shore up your property because some bug MIGHT live nearby

Ok do we know what the costs for the engineers will be to POACRE? Does this dovetail in the whale litigation? Will this be discussed at the next board meeting or will it be kept under wraps? Inquiring minds want to know.

Amen. ........ As for the possible meeting, why is this information being held back by either the county, the Feds or the BOD? Don't you think this is information that we owners should have immediately. What are the chances that the information is being held back for nefarious purposes? Shouldn't this be in the Recorder or on the boards seeing as it affects everyone in CRE?

From what I understand, the meeting is being held to address the issues that are being experienced up and down the shoreline. State and County Officials as well as other individuals and agencies have been working together to have the meeting. I don't believe they were trying to keep the information from the public. I believe this problem effected a small group of people and over time more and more have become effected which is the reason they are addressing it.

Many CRE, Drum Point and Scientist Cliffs residents were aware and by word of mouth through their friends, family and Home Owners Associations did get the word out, so many of us were aware of it... I guess our voices weren't loud enough?

In addition, the oversight of cleaning up the Chesapeake Bay was in the hands of the State but has since been turned over to the Federal Government. I understand something similar took place involving the Great Lakes in Michigan and once the Feds stepped in, the Lakes improved dramatically...

I wonder how the Tiger Beetle issue plays into that scenario?
The Lakes didn't have cliffs and Tiger Beetles!
For the Chesapeake, Only time will tell.

June

Many CRE, Drum Point and Scientist Cliffs residents were aware and by word of mouth through their friends, family and Home Owners Associations did get the word out, so many of us were aware of it... I guess our voices weren't loud enough?

I haven't heard anything about this. Word that affects those who live here should be louder. There is nothing in the paper about this nor has it been mentioned anywhere else that I am aware of. And yet you say that many already know of this possible meeting? I guess those who are in the know are the ones who got the word and many of those keep it close to the vest so they can present the information their own way without anyone else being aware or having any input. But then again that is the nature of the current "transparent" BOD. We know nothing, hear nothing and see nothing. The information released is only what they want us to know and is presented in a way that will only allow for the barest of facts in the hopes that the masses will swallow it hook line and stinker.

Calvert County to Host Critical Area Information Meeting - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16048)

There is this too...

I see ....by the signs at the entrance to Chesapeake Ranch Estates... that Golden West Way is closed to thru traffic until further notice....

What's that all about?

How's it going to impact the school bus routes?



The School Transportation Department and the Superintendent were notified and have redirected the bus routes accordingly. It is my understanding from the Superintendent that anyone/student who was going to be affected by this rerouting were notified by phone.

Although I am sure the impact of rerouting the buses still has to be seen once school starts back up.

Veronica

Many CRE, Drum Point and Scientist Cliffs residents were aware and by word of mouth through their friends, family and Home Owners Associations did get the word out, so many of us were aware of it... I guess our voices weren't loud enough?

I haven't heard anything about this. Word that affects those who live here should be louder. There is nothing in the paper about this nor has it been mentioned anywhere else that I am aware of. And yet you say that many already know of this possible meeting? I guess those who are in the know are the ones who got the word and many of those keep it close to the vest so they can present the information their own way without anyone else being aware or having any input. But then again that is the nature of the current "transparent" BOD. We know nothing, hear nothing and see nothing. The information released is only what they want us to know and is presented in a way that will only allow for the barest of facts in the hopes that the masses will swallow it hook line and stinker.

Sorry but I have to go here...
I did not state many people were aware of the meeting... I stated that more and more people became aware which is what brought about the meeting...

The members who live along the cliffs brought their plight to a board meeting and a membership meeting, I was at both. They were trying to get POACRE to help fund the projects because they felt POACRE was responsible for protecting their properties.

Then the projects they were allowed to do was in the jurisdiction of State and Federal Governments because what they were doing was done past the mean high tide (in the water) which POACRE has no responsibility nor jurisdiction of...

Then the members that attended these meetings felt they shouldn't have to help pay for their problem either as that meant raising their homeowner fees to try and help cover the costs of the people that bought cliff properties.

Mr. Eney our current President has been doing everything in his power to try to help them but as you know does not have an open door policy when it comes to information...

I on the other hand, have come to the conclusion that they bought their property for much less than other waterfront properties which should have been a clue there was a problem. The erosion of the cliffs is a natural event of mother nature... How do you fight mother nature?

Why would someone buy a property on a cliff? Especially after watching all the mudslides in California with houses going down with. Does the state and federal government bail those homeowners out or do they pay mudslide insurance? So maybe the next thing would be Cliff insurance?

June

Calvert County to Host Critical Area Information Meeting - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16048)

There is this too...


I thank you for posting the link to the information!

June

Calvert County to Host Critical Area Information Meeting - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16048)

There is this too...

Is this a different meeting or a second location for the same meeting. The meeting I was notified of in email was addressing the Public Library in Prince Frederick and I understood it addresses the Tiger Beetle issue as well...

Thanks,
June

Is this a different meeting or a second location for the same meeting. The meeting I was notified of in email was addressing the Public Library in Prince Frederick and I understood it addresses the Tiger Beetle issue as well...

Thanks,
June

I think it is a different meeting, but related to the issues all the same. Any shoreline erosion control would be happening in a critical area. The tiger beetles habitat is in a critical area.

this is quite unbelievable.

The problem with repairing GWW has absolutely nothing to do with the tiger beetle. No agency has ever denied POACRE the right to repair or mitigate the erosion problem at that location or any other spot because of the beetle. This is a generated lie perpetrated by certain Board members.

In 2001 as acting manager (not acting in my engineering capacity) I personally reported to the BOD and pointed out the impending disaster and requested an engineering study be done to create a mitigation plan. I was told to shut up and leave it alone.

Why would they try to shut me up, you ask? Because if an engineer's opinion would reveal that GWW was actually in danger of collapse, they would legally be obligated to act thinking that without the professional opinion, they could deny liability if there were a catastrophic failure. This was their PLANNED RESPONSE TO THE REAL THREAT!!!

It was an accident of miscommunication that manager Huddleston acted to get this Engineer's opinion specific to the stability of the cliff. I applaud her for it. Now, Eney is trying to control the information flow so that elected officials only get one story and one opinion. I've seen emails between him and the roads committee where he is ordering them to control their public speech on the matter specifically with county, state, and federal officials. He wants HIS solution to be considered, and no other.

Whatever solution they seek, and I believe it will be a very expensive reinforcement and revetment rather than a reasonably affordable reroute or simply leaving it closed and create a cul de sac on either side of the breach, they seem to believe (dream) they can leverage money out of the county or state to pay for their cadillac plan.

I think it is a different meeting, but related to the issues all the same. Any shoreline erosion control would be happening in a critical area. The tiger beetles habitat is in a critical area.

I thought so but did not want to put out the wrong information. And the few times I have done so try to make the correction as soon as I can..

Thanks again
June

this is quite unbelievable.

The problem with repairing GWW has absolutely nothing to do with the tiger beetle. No agency has ever denied POACRE the right to repair or mitigate the erosion problem at that location or any other spot because of the beetle. This is a generated lie perpetrated by certain Board members.

In 2001 as acting manager (not acting in my engineering capacity) I personally reported to the BOD and pointed out the impending disaster and requested an engineering study be done to create a mitigation plan. I was told to shut up and leave it alone.

Why would they try to shut me up, you ask? Because if an engineer's opinion would reveal that GWW was actually in danger of collapse, they would legally be obligated to act thinking that without the professional opinion, they could deny liability if there were a catastrophic failure. This was their PLANNED RESPONSE TO THE REAL THREAT!!!

It was an accident of miscommunication that manager Huddleston acted to get this Engineer's opinion specific to the stability of the cliff. I applaud her for it. Now, Eney is trying to control the information flow so that elected officials only get one story and one opinion. I've seen emails between him and the roads committee where he is ordering them to control their public speech on the matter specifically with county, state, and federal officials. He wants HIS solution to be considered, and no other.

Whatever solution they seek, and I believe it will be a very expensive reinforcement and revetment rather than a reasonably affordable reroute or simply leaving it closed and create a cul de sac on either side of the breach, they seem to believe (dream) they can leverage money out of the county or state to pay for their cadillac plan.

Interesting reading.....
I've not heard anything remotely close to what you are stating here.

I understand that there are environmental laws protecting the beetles and the tidal waters at both state and federal levels.. I never heard anyone being exempted from those laws...

So how is it that POACRE is exempt from those laws which would allow us to shore up the cliffs to prevent loosing the road way and/or homes along that road...? Show me!

June

Interesting reading.....
I've not heard anything remotely close to what you are stating here.

I understand that there are environmental laws protecting the beetles and the tidal waters at both state and federal levels.. I never heard anyone being exempted from those laws...

So how is it that POACRE is exempt from those laws which would allow us to shore up the cliffs to prevent loosing the road way and/or homes along that road...? Show me!

June

They aren't exempt...but that is what they are trying to make happen with fighting the county/marine museum over a stupid whale.

They aren't exempt...but that is what they are trying to make happen with fighting the county/marine museum over a stupid whale.


yep. With all the money spent on the whale, couldn't that money have been better spent on things that really matter, maybe the amenities or roads? Yet they persist in tilting against windmills (the tiger beetle). When will it end?:evil:

Interesting reading.....
I've not heard anything remotely close to what you are stating here.

I understand that there are environmental laws protecting the beetles and the tidal waters at both state and federal levels.. I never heard anyone being exempted from those laws...

So how is it that POACRE is exempt from those laws which would allow us to shore up the cliffs to prevent loosing the road way and/or homes along that road...? Show me!

June

There is no such law that would prevent mitigation of erosion. It is simply a matter of proper permitting. How else does everyone else on the cliffs manage to place surge rock and bulldoze the cliffs to a manageable slope? Do you think they just all do it illegally (admittedly some do).

The following law specifically PERMITS the incidental taking of the tiger beetle under conditions. ["incidental taking" as in the process of repairing a section of road.]

Maryland Code
NATURAL RESOURCES
TITLE 10. Wildlife.
Subtitle 2A. Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


§ 10-2A-05.1 NAT. RES. Permit authorizing incidental taking of
Puritan Tiger Bettle.


Start with the very first house North of first beach. Then homes on Taos trail and then at the end of Algonquin. Many have modified the cliffs through permits (some after the fact) and have reinforced with rock. A quick veiw using google earth will show where this is done.


So, lets not be blaming anything more on the environmentalists or the state. This is squarely in the lap of the POACRE BOD.

All this jabber and I still don't know what is going on!

Where is the problem on Golden West Way?

What is the particular issue causing us to turn around? A few years ago a car broke through a barriar on the western side of the road and we had to close the road to shore it up. Was there another cave in? East or West side? Near what intersection? Was anyone hurt? Is there danger of a cave in? What intersection or area does it impact?

Who originated this decision to close the road to thru traffic? Was there a police report? Is this a public safety hazzard?

Who contacted the Board of Ed and the County Bus System? Will they be altering the time schedules on Monday and how will the parents be notified? How are the schedules for those services changed?

I looked at the web page for POACRE and I didn't see anything. I checked the local paper and saw no announcement. This is not intended to be a slam on anyone but I would appreciate some more information so I came here to get it..... I've been out of the loop with Lyme and I saw the notice on the sign boards....

Becky:coffee:

http://www.poacre.org/picture/map_of_closure.pdf
Here's a link with a map of the closure. My inlaws live not far from there on Golden West Way... I think this happened in the same spot before.... In a few areas, the side of the road (not the bay side) is a steep drop and there is not enough land underneath to support a road.

There has been several collapses of the cliff on the BAY SIDE of GWW near Towanka Court. About 750 feet of GWW is in imminent danger of collapse.

D.H., at the request of the roads committee, solicited and recieved a P.E. opinion on the matter. The P.E. said CLOSE IMMEDIATELY.

BECAUSE there is now a P.E. opinion, they have to act on the problem. They have known about this since the beginning of POACRE. The BOD has specifically NOT gotten a professional opinion because they would obviously have to address the problem or face individual liablity for negligence if something bad happened. Without a professional opinion they had some notion they could claim ignorance. Not unlike the governing documents matter.

Now the POACRE Board is controlling info and spinning themselves into butter and blaming the tiger beetle.

http://www.poacre.org/picture/map_of_closure.pdf
Here's a link with a map of the closure. My inlaws live not far from there on Golden West Way... I think this happened in the same spot before.... In a few areas, the side of the road (not the bay side) is a steep drop and there is not enough land underneath to support a road.

That is the area I thought it was in. A few years ago a driver went off the road there and took out some of the barrier along the side.

Thank you for the information. Do you know if there has been a schedule sent to the parents? It's mighty cold for those kids to be standing out there waiting on the bus. Is there a safe turn around for the school bus down there?

That is the area I thought it was in. A few years ago a driver went off the road there and took out some of the barrier along the side.

Thank you for the information. Do you know if there has been a schedule sent to the parents? It's mighty cold for those kids to be standing out there waiting on the bus. Is there a safe turn around for the school bus down there?


HotCoffee

As I stated earlier in this post the Board of Ed was contacted. I personally contacted the Superintendent at John Eney and Debora Huddleston's request. According to an email I recevied from Dr. Smith, they were already working on rerouting the buses and informing all parents/students affected by the rerouting by phone. This was done last week. I do not have specifics on where the students will be picked up from the Board of Ed but it is my understanding that everything has been taken care of for the start of school on Monday. As with any change, I am sure there will be snags that will need to be ironed out but they won't know until the buses actually start running again on Monday.

Anyone living on Golden West Way who have concerns about their child's bus schedule and have not heard from the BOE regarding a change in pick up/drop off of their child /children need to contact the BOE. Ed Cassidy is in charge of Student Transportation.

Veronica

There has been several collapses of the cliff on the BAY SIDE of GWW near Towanka Court. About 750 feet of GWW is in imminent danger of collapse.

D.H., at the request of the roads committee, solicited and recieved a P.E. opinion on the matter. The P.E. said CLOSE IMMEDIATELY.

BECAUSE there is now a P.E. opinion, they have to act on the problem. They have known about this since the beginning of POACRE. The BOD has specifically NOT gotten a professional opinion because they would obviously have to address the problem or face individual liablity for negligence if something bad happened. Without a professional opinion they had some notion they could claim ignorance. Not unlike the governing documents matter.

Now the POACRE Board is controlling info and spinning themselves into butter and blaming the tiger beetle.

Thanks for the information. I had no idea there was actually a serious situation over there.

Is POACRE going to do anything to notify its membership other than the little church style bulletin board?

Thanks for the information. I had no idea there was actually a serious situation over there.

Is POACRE going to do anything to notify its membership other than the little church style bulletin board?

Go to the board meeting Monday night.

Go to the board meeting Monday night.

I will. Do you know what time?

I will. Do you know what time?

No. But Hotcoffee or vemoon or exnodak should know.

All I saw on the "church style signs" was Board Meeting 1/4/10 - LL (lower level of admin building).

No. But Hotcoffee or vemoon or exnodak should know.

All I saw on the "church style signs" was Board Meeting 1/4/10 - LL (lower level of admin building).

It is at 7:00 PM Jan 04, Lower level, Admin building. Park around back and enter through the lower level door.

The agenda has not been published to my knowledge.

If you have an issue to bring up, if it is not on the agenda, do it during members comments. You will have two minutes to speak your mind to the BOD. Remember to bring your contract number. This will verify you are a member in good standing. If a motion is created from the comments they will need this info for the records.

It would be nice to see more people at the meetings. It is unfortunate that a serious issue is what gets people engaged. As exnodak said earlier, the concerns of GWW have been out there, unofficially, for awhile. The most I have seen attend a monthly meeting over the last year is maybe ten members. This is the real issue in the community, very few seem to care.

I am sure there are many other issues that need to be dealt with before they become a crisis. More member engagement would fix a majority of them.

Well I went to the meeting and I'm glad I did because our situation here in the CRE is quite shocking really. They are talking about whether to fix the massive failure of the roads at golden west way. If we do fix it, the cost...and the fact that the CRE currently has "NO MONEY" to even maintain the roads that aren't in danger of crumbling into the bay.
I seriously have my doubts as to whether the situation can even be fixed. Erosion of the cliff face cannot be stopped and I don't really feel like we should waste what resources we have (and apparently we have none) on a lost cause.
Apparently our preliminary rough estimate for fixing the road is $500,000. This of course is the number they give you to begin with...I have no doubt that this number will be closer to $1.5 million in reality when all is said and done, if not more....and that whopping figure is the cost only to fix the road, not the cost to shore up the cliffs against erosion. So fix the road? And then what happens when the next big storm comes through and washes more of the cliff away? Throw millions of more dollars at the problem?

Seriously. The membership needs to get involved. We are flat broke as a community. The board needs to be held accountable for the decisions they are making and we as a community and homeowners with investments here need to be involved in the decision making.. There are very serious issues at hand that will affect us all and I'm afraid that the information is not getting out to the masses.

Well I went to the meeting and I'm glad I did because our situation here in the CRE is quite shocking really. They are talking about whether to fix the massive failure of the roads at golden west way. .......... There are very serious issues at hand that will affect us all and I'm afraid that the information is not getting out to the masses.

First,
WELCOME Back! It was good to see you out and Thank you! Sorry I didn't realize right away who you were Monday night, its been a while..

Second,
I don't really see what we can reasonably do with this situation either considering the current status of cases that the President addressed in the RUT.... Speaking of which, we (my husband and I) were stunned when we opened it to the large ads... I guess I would be better to ask if the ads covered the postage.. Sorry, sidetracked again...

I agree in that regardless of what or who tries to stabilize the roadway, mother nature will win the battle in this one. They talk about the grants but from what I understand it is no different than a reimbursement program and that is if you can get the grant to begin with... I wondered if those home owners couldn't pull enough loans together like those that did during the "Ranch Club" days or would they even consider the risk, knowing the previous design failed earlier than expected.... As a homeowner, I wouldn't if I lived along that area... Instead, I'd be looking for a policy with an erosion supplemental clause? Then if we were able to get permission to stabilize the cliffs, would it still save and stabilize the roadway for the future?
I have a lot more questions that need answers.....

The one positive in this situation....
The little speeders that were tearing along that road,
aren't able to do it now!

But sad to say, they will probably find another one of our roads to terrorize...
or make another one of their "hot spots" worse...

June

Sorry but I have to go here...
I did not state many people were aware of the meeting... I stated that more and more people became aware which is what brought about the meeting...
The members who live along the cliffs brought their plight to a board meeting and a membership meeting, I was at both. They were trying to get POACRE to help fund the projects because they felt POACRE was responsible for protecting their properties.

Rather than rely on memory, I reviewed the slides that were presented to the CRE BoD and membership, and there was never a request from the shoreline committee to the CRE BoD or CRE membership soliciting funding from POACRE. Quite to the contrary, the shoreline committee’s briefings were intended to educate the membership regarding shoreline erosion issues, and to provide status of ongoing efforts to research alternative funding sources to develop a comprehensive shoreline erosion program and demonstration project for the entire community, one that could be used as a model for the state. You mention two meetings, the attached chronology cites more than two meetings and none addressed requests to POACRE for funding. The chronology also documents significant committee efforts to obtain emergency funding for GWWW in 1999 - 2000.

Then the projects they were allowed to do was in the jurisdiction of State and Federal Governments because what they were doing was done past the mean high tide (in the water) which POACRE has no responsibility nor jurisdiction of...

Your pretty close on this one; however, a County permit was also required which necessitated POACRE approval. Just like it says in the rules and regs.
Then the members that attended these meetings felt they shouldn't have to help pay for their problem either as that meant raising their homeowner fees to try and help cover the costs of the people that bought cliff properties.

Again, the shoreline committee never asked the membership for funding support, and there is nothing in our minutes nor POACRE minutes to support your statement.

Mr. Eney our current President has been doing everything in his power to try to help them but as you know does not have an open door policy when it comes to information...

POACRE owns most of the 2.3 miles of bluffs along CRE's shoreline, and as members we all share in the ownership of, and liabilities associated with that common property. The same holds true for the dam, if it were to breach and destroy the 100 homes downstream, we the association would be liable. Mr. Eney and BoD, by vote, are carrying out their fiduciary responsibilities and as such are reducing potential POACRE liability associated with shoreline erosion. Yes, the POACRE BoD is trying to help “them” but please remember as a POACRE owner you are one of “them.”

I on the other hand, have come to the conclusion that they bought their property for much less than other waterfront properties which should have been a clue there was a problem. The erosion of the cliffs is a natural event of mother nature... How do you fight mother nature?

Is your conclusion this based on MD State Department of Assessment and Taxation information or your own assessment?

Why would someone buy a property on a cliff? Especially after watching all the mudslides in California with houses going down with. Does the state and federal government bail those homeowners out or do they pay mudslide insurance? So maybe the next thing would be Cliff insurance?

Who paid for the restoration of Seahorse Beach after hurricane Isabel? FEMA? Federal Flood Ins? Where is POACRE looking for funding for repairs to Golden West Way? Where did we look for funding for GWW in 1999 and 2000? Federal funding? By the way, had our roads been under a public roads use easement at the time or CRE a municipality, the major costs of repairs would have been covered by federal funds. It is a high price we pay to be a private community.

For information, any contributions of state or federal funding supporting a comprehensive plan/project for erosion control would be to prevent erosion, not protect private property, that is the owner's responsibility. Erosion control can result in significant benefit to the public because of the reduction in the amount of direct nutrient input into the bay; therfore, federal funding can be used to support such projects.
Tony

Rather than rely on memory, I reviewed the slides that were presented to the CRE BoD and membership, and there was never a request from the shoreline committee to the CRE BoD or CRE membership ...................... Erosion control can result in significant benefit to the public because of the reduction in the amount of direct nutrient input into the bay; therfore, federal funding can be used to support such projects.
Tony

Thank you for clearing all that up! I'm glad someone is!
As for the assessments. No, I actually went to a website which posted the differences in pricing of homes located along the cliffs and other shorelines located in the Northern and Southern Maryland areas...

Southern Maryland:
Calvert County - $957,903 on Average.
Charles County - $954,447 on Average.
St. Mary's County $748,335 on Average.

As compared to those in the North...
Anne Arrundel - $1,418,031 on Average.
Cecil County - $1,170,798 on Average.
Prince George's County $989,718 on Average.

as a side note, you may be closer to DC in the North but I haven't heard of any cliff erosion problems up that way either. Guess I could be wrong there as well...

More information can be found here:
Water Front Homes. Waterfront homes in Maryland and Virginia. (http://www.homefinders.com/waterfront_buyers.php)

June

There is no such law that would prevent mitigation of erosion. It is simply a matter of proper permitting. How else does everyone else on the cliffs manage to place surge rock and bulldoze the cliffs to a manageable slope? Do you think they just all do it illegally (admittedly some do).

The following law specifically PERMITS the incidental taking of the tiger beetle under conditions. ["incidental taking" as in the process of repairing a section of road.]

Maryland Code
NATURAL RESOURCES
TITLE 10. Wildlife.
Subtitle 2A. Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


§ 10-2A-05.1 NAT. RES. Permit authorizing incidental taking of
Puritan Tiger Bettle.


Start with the very first house North of first beach. Then homes on Taos trail and then at the end of Algonquin. Many have modified the cliffs through permits (some after the fact) and have reinforced with rock. A quick veiw using google earth will show where this is done.


So, lets not be blaming anything more on the environmentalists or the state. This is squarely in the lap of the POACRE BOD.

So how was your day in court? What happened?

So how was your day in court? What happened?

Case continued. The judge recused himself due to prior relationship with defendant.

New Judge to be assigned.

So what did Wallace & Montgomery [the STD engineers for the Golden West Way re-design and build] say about the "impending catastrophic event"?

So how was your day in court? What happened?

I can only speak to the shoreline projects that I was involved with, and you referred to two of them. Neither installed project modified the cliffs. The original requests for these projects were to armor the shoreline which would have modified the cliffs. Both request to armor the base of the cliff were denied based on potential alteration of beetle habitat. The only option DNR and Critical Area would approve were offshore controls which we later applied for and installed. Unfortunately, they haven’t provided the level of protection needed. Following is the latest recommendation from DNR to deny a request for erosion control considering the "taking authority". Not everything is as easy as it may seem.

The Maryland Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act (the Act) requires that all State departments and agencies insure that the actions they authorize do not jeopardize the continued existence of endangered and threatened species [Article 10-2A06(c)]. There is a similar provision in the federal Endangered Species Act. If review of this project as proposed proceeds further, the Department's Natural Heritage Program will need to formally coordinate with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to determine whether or not the project jeopardizes the continued existence of the species. It is also important to point out that although permits may be issued for incidental take under the Maryland Act [10-2A-05.1], several criteria must be met: 1) the incidental taking will not appreciably reduce the likelihood of the survival or recovery of the Puritan Tiger Beetle in the wild, 2) the applicant will, to the extent practicable, minimize and mitigate the impacts of the incidental taking, 3) adequate funding for the conservation plan is available and the plan will be implemented; and 4) the applicant has obtained the required federal authorization for the incidental taking of the Puritan Tiger Beetle. It appears however that the project as proposed would in fact result in take of the Puritan tiger beetle due to the impacts to the cliff habitat, and this impact is likely to be significantly detrimental given the length of shoreline to be altered. Therefore, the project would appreciably reduce the likelihood of survival or recovery for this species and it would not meet criteria #l noted above. Based upon the provisions of the Critical Area Regulations and the Maryland Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act, the Department recommends that MDE and the Corps deny this application for the project as proposed.

I can only speak to the shoreline projects that I was involved with, and you referred to two of them. Neither installed project modified the cliffs. The original requests for these projects were to armor the shoreline which would have modified the cliffs. Both request to armor the base of the cliff were denied based on potential alteration of beetle habitat. The only option DNR and Critical Area would approve were offshore controls which we later applied for and installed. Unfortunately, they haven’t provided the level of protection needed. Following is the latest recommendation from DNR to deny a request for erosion control considering the "taking authority". Not everything is as easy as it may seem.

The Maryland Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act (the Act) requires that all State departments and agencies insure that the actions they authorize do not jeopardize the continued existence of endangered and threatened species [Article 10-2A06(c)]. There is a similar provision in the federal Endangered Species Act. If review of this project as proposed proceeds further, the Department's Natural Heritage Program will need to formally coordinate with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to determine whether or not the project jeopardizes the continued existence of the species. It is also important to point out that although permits may be issued for incidental take under the Maryland Act [10-2A-05.1], several criteria must be met: 1) the incidental taking will not appreciably reduce the likelihood of the survival or recovery of the Puritan Tiger Beetle in the wild, 2) the applicant will, to the extent practicable, minimize and mitigate the impacts of the incidental taking, 3) adequate funding for the conservation plan is available and the plan will be implemented; and 4) the applicant has obtained the required federal authorization for the incidental taking of the Puritan Tiger Beetle. It appears however that the project as proposed would in fact result in take of the Puritan tiger beetle due to the impacts to the cliff habitat, and this impact is likely to be significantly detrimental given the length of shoreline to be altered. Therefore, the project would appreciably reduce the likelihood of survival or recovery for this species and it would not meet criteria #l noted above. Based upon the provisions of the Critical Area Regulations and the Maryland Nongame and Endangered Species Conservation Act, the Department recommends that MDE and the Corps deny this application for the project as proposed.


Looks like Fresh Creek will become navigable water - again.

So how was your day in court? What happened?

There were and continue to be significant efforts put forth to mitigate GWWW. Beetles aren't the only obstacle. Funding has always been the issue and thats something the members as well as the POACRE BoD have to come to terms with. It should not come as any surprise it has been briefed many times over the years. I hope the following provides some insight as to the continuing saga of GWWW.

A Survey and Habitat Evaluation for the Puritan Tiger Beetle was conducted by US F&W, in 1996, at CRE to assess possible impacts of a proposed Stone Revetment – GWW. Excerpts from Results follow:

There is no apparent larval habitat of the Puritan Tiger Beetle for the 200 meter section of shoreline immediately north of Seashore Beach. (Probably why revetments were approved for the first two lots north of seahorse beach)

The section of shoreline north of this section starts the area of the proposed @150 meter long revetment (Section C). This revetment section has moderately good larval habitat at the top of the cliff face where suitable substrate exists. About 25-100 adults have been found within this length in recent years. For about 200m or more to the north of the proposed revetment the habitat is very good for both larvae and adults with several hundred meters of excellent larval habitat occurring in the upper cliff potions. In recent years 150 to about 400 adults have been found in this 300 meter section (north of the proposed revetment.)

The proposed revetment would almost certainly have a negative impact on
some this (Cliffs of Calvert) population of C. puritana. I estimate that perhaps 15-20 % of the adult and larval habitat (and population?) would be affected, and; perhaps eliminated. The proposed revetment project including the modifications near the top of the, cliffs would probably stabilize the shoreline and largely destroy larval habitat.

The revetment may also shorten the narrow beach, eliminate adult foraging area, and reduce the movement of the adults to cliffs behind the stone (if suitable habitat was there). The impact on larvae would be greatly minimized in this section only if it the upper cliff face could be kept unvegetated bare, but this would probably not significantly reduce the erosion which is creating the problem. It is likely, however, the most of the population of C. puritana at this site would not be affected by this project. The shoreline to the North which has most of the best adult and larval habit apparently would not be affected by the placement of the revetment, but an expert of shoreline dynamics may be needed to determine this .

1996 – 1998 POACRE explored but was unsuccessful in finding grant funding for the project. There were no grants available via MDE, DNR or other state agencies. DNR, Shore Erosion Control Office no longer had interest free or low interest loans. They suggested approaching local government about establishing a Shoreline Erosion Control Tax District. POACRE did prepare a petition was prepared and ready to send to the County. (I don’t know if the petition was forwarded or not, and don’t know if an application for permit was submitted)

1998 -2000 Shoreline committee picked up the task and contacted Sen Sarbanes Office and Corp of Engineers (COE) Baltimore District about funding a project using federal funds set aside in the Water Resource Development Act for shoreline erosion projects. Based on several site visits and meetings, COE recommended submitting an emergency request to COE for erosion control project to protect Golden West Way which was considered to be in imminent danger. Since POACRE is a private community, a public sponsor was required as part of the qualification criteria. POACRE sent a letter the BOCCC requesting sponsorship and included draft letter to ACOE requesting emergency assistance for Golden West Way that would be funded mostly by ACOE. POACRE also briefed the BoCCC several times on the issue. Attached is the copy of the BoCCC final decision on the issue.

So how was your day in court? What happened?

MD legislation wasn’t enacted until 2005 (House Bill 0972) to allow for the taking of the tiger beetle, listed as threatened by the federal government and threatened and endangers by MD. The MD law requires an almost impossible to get federal taking permit which requires a habitat conservation plan (HCP) before it will consider approving a MD taking permit. To my knowledge, there have been no approvals to date under the new MD regulation resulting from (HB0972). What do I mean by “almost impossible to get,” read the following excerpt from the federal register
“Applying for an "Incidental Take Permit"
From Federal Register: March 23, 1999 (Volume 64, Number 55)
Rules and Regulations, Page 14051-14077
Permits for "incidental takes" -- i.e., "takes" of listed species that are incidental to, and not the purpose of, a proposed activity -- may be issued by the Secretary after the landowner submits a "habitat conservation plan" (HCP) on the impacts from the "taking," along with proposed mitigation measures, why alternatives were rejected, and so on. If the Secretary finds that the "taking" will in fact be incidental, satisfactorily mitigated, and will not appreciably reduce the species' chances for survival and recovery, he must issue the permit. However, HCPs, without which a permit cannot be issued, have been controversial. Their cost may be prohibitive for small landowners not covered by regional or project HCPs funded by big developers or state and local governments, and they allegedly impose delays on development.(18) FWS reports that as of December, 1992, it has approved only 14 HCPs in the program's decade-long history.
The most recent numbers I’ve seen show approximately 500 HCPs approved nationwide for all species.

I'll ask again... what did Wallace & Montgomery say about the road?

Wallace & Montgomery is the name of the engineering firm that was under contract for that section of the road for the Special Taxing District.

What did they say about the need to close the road?

Did they offer any alternatives?

I'll ask again... what did Wallace & Montgomery say about the road?

Wallace & Montgomery is the name of the engineering firm that was under contract for that section of the road for the Special Taxing District.

What did they say about the need to close the road?

Did they offer any alternatives?

Wallace and Montgomery haven't been involved since the beginning of the 2nd STD. I don't believe they were ever involved in any projects that included GWW.

I'll ask again... what did Wallace & Montgomery say about the road?

Wallace & Montgomery is the name of the engineering firm that was under contract for that section of the road for the Special Taxing District.

What did they say about the need to close the road?

Did they offer any alternatives?

Not sure who did the design for GWW or if there were any recommendation. I'll ask.

I can only speak to the shoreline projects that I was involved with, .......

That is a lot of stuff to remember. Problem is when a person is not directly involved with these things, information tends to get lost or forgotten. I only remember the two presentations given and the appearance others received as a result of them. Then someone said the State passed legislation to allow us to move forward but the county refused...

This concerned me because I thought this was a recent action and could not see how that was possible now that we can apply for FEMA and SHUR allocations. Having read the attachment, I see that this happened some time ago because the county considers us "PRIVATE" although I believe we had the STD at the time which is what opened the roads to the public in the first place....

I would think after all this time with the STD, and SHUR Agreements having public easements, and because we did apply and receive FEMA, that they would consider our roads are no longer private. Only our homes and Amenities (Common Properities) remain private....

I thank you for taking the time to post the information.
Maybe more members within our community will see it and take the time to think about what the County continues to do to our community. We can have a loud voice at the polls we just need start using it!

June

Not sure who did the design for GWW or if there were any recommendation. I'll ask.

If Wallace & Montgomery engineered that area of the roadway, they have not yet been notified of the problem. Another Engineer is looking at it.

June

If Wallace & Montgomery engineered that area of the roadway, they have not yet been notified of the problem. Another Engineer is looking at it.

June

The other engineer.... is that the engineer that the Board hired to get money for the cliff rescue?

Is that the tiger beetle that TonyV keeps running on and on about?

Has the engineer that designed Goldens West Way [and yes I believe it was indeed Wallace & Montgomery but the question remains the same] been notified for their input?

See.... it's all political.... now there's even been a rumor that this has all been done so that some people along the cliff area near Seahorse beach can have a private road into a cul-de-sac..... because they don't like the speeding cars... according to the rumor I heard .... it ruins their scerinity....:coffee:

The other engineer.... is that the engineer that the Board hired to get money for the cliff rescue?

Is that the tiger beetle that TonyV keeps running on and on about?

Has the engineer that designed Goldens West Way [and yes I believe it was indeed Wallace & Montgomery but the question remains the same] been notified for their input?

See.... it's all political.... now there's even been a rumor that this has all been done so that some people along the cliff area near Seahorse beach can have a private road into a cul-de-sac..... because they don't like the speeding cars... according to the rumor I heard .... it ruins their scerinity....:coffee:

That is a good rumor....I hope it is true. I need to find a way to collapse my road so I can have some serenity... yeah, maybe I will have to walk to my house, but the serenity...

Maybe the cliff dwellers have orchestrated the tiger beetle "problem" [wink] so they can have more serenity with the help of Wallace & Montgomery.

I am all over this conspiracy...

I am sure records exist that can prove this true....They are probably stored in an undisclosed location that only the BOD know of. Well, the BOD that are on the inside. That change every few years.

I bet Wallace & Montgomery have stored them.

Disclaimer: The above is sarcasm, I am someone that knows nothing

The other engineer.... is that the engineer that the Board hired to get money for the cliff rescue?

Is that the tiger beetle that TonyV keeps running on and on about?

Has the engineer that designed Goldens West Way [and yes I believe it was indeed Wallace & Montgomery but the question remains the same] been notified for their input?

See.... it's all political.... now there's even been a rumor that this has all been done so that some people along the cliff area near Seahorse beach can have a private road into a cul-de-sac..... because they don't like the speeding cars... according to the rumor I heard .... it ruins their scerinity....:coffee:

With Golden West Way in this mystery condition and closed to thru traffic I imagine the houses on that stretch of road have become virtually unsellable. That can't be doing much for their serenity :coffee:

That is a good rumor....I hope it is true. I need to find a way to collapse my road so I can have some serenity... yeah, maybe I will have to walk to my house, but the serenity...

Maybe the cliff dwellers have orchestrated the tiger beetle "problem" [wink] so they can have more serenity with the help of Wallace & Montgomery.

I am all over this conspiracy...

I am sure records exist that can prove this true....They are probably stored in an undisclosed location that only the BOD know of. Well, the BOD that are on the inside. That change every few years.

I bet Wallace & Montgomery have stored them.

Disclaimer: The above is sarcasm, I am someone that knows nothing

It's not a rumor. It is a serious suggestion worth considering. It would be the least expensive and most practical solution (IMO). It does have some problems with practical application because a route must be established for approximately 5 properties that would be stranded without further planning.

I'll ask again... what did Wallace & Montgomery say about the road? They were the engineers for the STD....

hotcoffee, This issue has become extremely complex. It will have to be sorted out with options presented to the community. At the end of the day it does not matter what any group or organization has said or done in the past. We have a serious issue at hand now.

There is not enough money to deal with anything on a large scale. A strategic plan has to be developed that the community agrees with.

It is past the time for arguing of what should have been done and when. If the community cannot come together and pay attention we are going to be in very dire circumstances very quickly.

There are other impending disasters waiting around the corner. Roads will be out of money due to snow if the weather stays bad, the Dam needs repair, The lake needs constant monitoring and treatment, members want their roads paved and maintained, the Admin building is falling into disrepair as well as all amenities and finally lots of litigation including those that do not pay the fees. No one is happy about the state of the community and no one wants to bring any suggestions to move us forward.

There are no easy options left.

Get rid of security?
Get rid of roads?

These are the only options we here about. A majority of the community want to keep these services. So what next?

There is nothing complex about what I am asking. I am asking to have the original engineer under the Special Taxing District Contacted.....

All I am asking is who contacted the engineering firm that designed that portion of road during the work under the special taxing district.... and what did they say about it?


AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!

If we do contact them.....SO WHAT

That does not change the fact that the road is unstable and on the verge of collapse. It does not supply any money to fix it. It will not save the homes near the cliff.

All it does is answer a question of... didn't you guys say that the road was good to go? Did they give us a warranty no one is aware of?

No matter what was said or done the road is now closed. It will remain closed along with a dozen other issues. We cannot seem to get past the simplest problems.

We are out of money!

There really is nothing else to discuss

Why would we have spent all that money to redesign a road that would be falling into the bay or the lake in such a short amount of time?

Did the board responsible for the contract have any word [from the orginal engineer of the STD re-surface project] that re-surfacing that section of road was useless?

The county inspected that road while the project was ongoing.... did they notice any problems?

Everyone signed off on spending over $1,000,000.00 even though it was probably going to fall into the bay in a couple of years.... and no one uttered a word to the association members?

It is not CRE's responsibility to save the houses on the bay.

The homeowners on the cliffs purchased homes on unstable ground. That's their problem not ours. We didn't sell them the home or the lot.

Now that I've read your comments and seen all that TonyV had to say here....I am now positive that this is a politically motivated road closure. It's intended to bring the beetle issue to a boil!

So now.... since this issue seems political to me... I will do as I promissed and make it public..... I thnk the CRE membership needs to be made aware of this little plot!

hotcoffee, I think that is a great idea. It has been kept a secret too long. (except for the signs that say road closed)

maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this.

hotcoffee, I think that is a great idea. It has been kept a secret too long. (except for the signs that say road closed)

maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this.

You're being flip .... right?

Most people expect that their Special Tax District funds are being used to build roads that will last for 20 years...

Most people don't know that the section of road the Board ordered closed cost them about $1,000,000 just a few years ago.

Most people don't know that the Board hired a new engineer who's specific job is to bring in money to repair the cliffs .... and it was on his word that the road was closed....

Most people don't know that this particular Board has a beef with the county over the cliffs and by closing the road the school bus rides on, the cliff problem is escalated to the county.

Yep.... you're being flip.... but the fact is .... there is more going on here than rough surf....:coffee:

Funny.... you hid your best retort over in the private forum...

You make good points. Maybe we should look at the political motivations of previous BOD as to why they would have spent $1,000,000 on a road that will fall in the water in only three years.

Making it public...is so funny. I am pretty sure everyone that cares, knows. I hope this gets more people involved. But again it does not really matter because we are out of money..

Do you think people don't care how the Special Taxing District money is spent?

It's not that they don't care.... it's that they are kept in the dark....

You're being flip .... right?

Most people expect that their Special Tax District funds are being used to build roads that will last for 20 years...

Most people don't know that the section of road the Board ordered closed cost them about $1,000,000 just a few years ago.

Most people don't know that the Board hired a new engineer who's specific job is to bring in money to repair the cliffs .... and it was on his word that the road was closed....

Most people don't know that this particular Board has a beef with the county over the cliffs and by closing the road the school bus rides on, the cliff problem is escalated to the county.

Yep.... you're being flip.... but the fact is .... there is more going on here than rough surf....:coffee:

Funny.... you hid your best retort over in the private forum...



Do you think people don't care how the Special Taxing District money is spent?

It's not that they don't care.... it's that they are kept in the dark....

And please overlook the fact that TonyV lives in a house on the cliffs and has a vested interest in the hideous concrete 'beehives' placed near the shoreline.

And please overlook the fact that TonyV lives in a house on the cliffs and has a vested interest in the hideous concrete 'beehives' placed near the shoreline.

Right... no one cares... right...

And the clams in the lake venture along with the sale and purchase of a party boat....

Right....

Looks like Fresh Creek will become navigable water - again.

The probablitity is high. One good storm could do it and if that doesn't, sea level rise eventually will, especially if a strategy isn't developed for the entire state. One only has to look at the shoreline vulnerability and innudation models (online at the DNR and VIMS websites) to see how vulnerable MD is to sea level rise. It isn't just the shoreline areas that are at risk. MD has already lost 10,000 acres to the sea.

I'm not sure that most folks are aware that Seahorse Beach is an artificial causeway.

And please overlook the fact that TonyV lives in a house on the cliffs and has a vested interest in the hideous concrete 'beehives' placed near the shoreline.

I guess I missed your point. Could you be a little bit more specific?

The probablitity is high. One good storm could do it and if that doesn't, sea level rise eventually will, especially if a strategy isn't developed for the entire state. One only has to look at the shoreline vulnerability and innudation models (online at the DNR and VIMS websites) to see how vulnerable MD is to sea level rise. It isn't just the shoreline areas that are at risk. MD has already lost 10,000 acres to the sea.

I'm not sure that most folks are aware that Seahorse Beach is an artificial causeway.

The fact that the area at Seahorse beach is a false causeway was addressed in Roads Committee Meetings and Board Meetings during the design phase Tony. There was a lot of money spent on the design and the re-build to make it less catastrophic when we get high surf but to make it less expensive to repair.... this additional design and restructure was required by the county.... as I recall...

Further, the whole Golden West Way paving project was delayed due to the design requirements made by the county on this section. So yes... a blind man could see the area in front of Seahorse Beach is a false causeway.

That's why I would be surprised if I found that the county would not have had quite a bit of input in the design of the section that runs over that last section of cliff [where the road had already suffered a collapse on the west side and was badly alegatored]. I would also be very surprised if the engineer didn't have very stringent requirements to follow. This was, after all, a purchase made with highly contested tax dollars.

That is why I keep asking about the reports from the engineer who designed the restructure under the Special Taxing District.

We're not talking about that section tho, are we? We're talking about the section that needs to be condemned to call attention to the demise of a few homes on the cliff aren't we?

Yes or no.... was the engineer who condemned the road hired to find a solution for the cliff issue?

CRE have it's own little section on here? I thought they did, so we didn't have to look at this, but maybe not. :shrug: Course, I don't have to look, so I won't, just wondering what happened to the CRE blog/section?

I guess I missed your point. Could you be a little bit more specific?

You are one of the moneyed few that were stupid enough to buy a house on the cliffs that will eventually fall into the bay and expect the entirety of CRE to save your house.

You are so far up Eney's a$$ you know what he eats for dinner.

You are allowed to walk the restricted area along the cliffs north of Driftwood Beach with your dog off lead without being harassed by 'security' but nobody else gets that special privilege.

How's that for specifics?

The fact that the area at Seahorse beach is a false causeway was addressed in Roads Committee Meetings and Board Meetings during the design phase Tony. There was a lot of money spent on the design and the re-build to make it less catastrophic when we get high surf but to make it less expensive to repair.... this additional design and restructure was required by the county.... as I recall...

Further, the whole Golden West Way paving project was delayed due to the design requirements made by the county on this section. So yes... a blind man could see the area in front of Seahorse Beach is a false causeway.

That's why I would be surprised if I found that the county would not have had quite a bit of input in the design of the section that runs over that last section of cliff [where the road had already suffered a collapse on the west side and was badly alegatored]. I would also be very surprised if the engineer didn't have very stringent requirements to follow. This was, after all, a purchase made with highly contested tax dollars.

That is why I keep asking about the reports from the engineer who designed the restructure under the Special Taxing District.

We're not talking about that section tho, are we? We're talking about the section that needs to be condemned to call attention to the demise of a few homes on the cliff aren't we?

Yes or no.... was the engineer who condemned the road hired to find a solution for the cliff issue?

bump

With Golden West Way in this mystery condition and closed to thru traffic I imagine the houses on that stretch of road have become virtually unsellable. That can't be doing much for their serenity :coffee:

As one of the families that owns a home at the new "cul-de-sac" at the end of Golden West Way, I can definitely agree that these houses have become unsellable. Which is fantastic since we purchased our home a year ago on the opposite side as the Bay and being newer to the area were not aware of all the issues that had occurred in the area and we were certainly not informed when meeting with the Homeowner's Association. While it is our "fault" that we bought this house, we would have never purchased this home if it was at the end of the street and you had to travel all through the windy, potholed roads of CRE to get to the house. This wasn't supposed to be our forever home, but with the destruction of the street it will have to be. I don't blame POACRE for the damage to the Cliff (that would be ridiculous) or for closing the road, but let's be honest, they should have never repaired the road the first time around before the catastrophic failure and maybe they should have filed papers with the county indicating the severity of the issues. I feel like the problems were hidden from us. The other houses may fall into the Bay and I'll get the Bay front I could never afford, but I'll be stuck in the house until we die because the market for a house in that area will plummet. I'm rambling, but I think some people bought houses in the area without knowing all the history, but the history wasn't reported so the potential buyers couldn't do their homework.

You are one of the moneyed few that were stupid enough to buy a house on the cliffs that will eventually fall into the bay and expect the entirety of CRE to save your house.

You are so far up Eney's a$$ you know what he eats for dinner.

You are allowed to walk the restricted area along the cliffs north of Driftwood Beach with your dog off lead without being harassed by 'security' but nobody else gets that special privilege.

How's that for specifics?


While I agree that those that purchased homes on the cliff area of the Bay are responsible for their purchases (as I am across the street), is there no accountability for the fact that these properties were zoned for such residences? Is there no responsibility to the County or whomever makes those decisions? I'm not saying that people shouldn't use their best judgement, but part of the decision is of course if the lot is zoned for a residence, you think that the risk is at least decreased and that the County actually put some thought into the zoning of the property Is that wrong?

While I agree that those that purchased homes on the cliff area of the Bay are responsible for their purchases (as I am across the street), is there no accountability for the fact that these properties were zoned for such residences? Is there no responsibility to the County or whomever makes those decisions? I'm not saying that people shouldn't use their best judgement, but part of the decision is of course if the lot is zoned for a residence, you think that the risk is at least decreased and that the County actually put some thought into the zoning of the property Is that wrong?

Any shred of hope in making the County (State) responsible for any of this was erased when the POACRE BOD negotiated the SHUR agreement.

As one of the families that owns a home at the new "cul-de-sac" at the end of Golden West Way,......................I don't blame POACRE for the damage to the Cliff (that would be ridiculous) or for closing the road, but let's be honest, they should have never repaired the road the first time around before the catastrophic failure and maybe they should have filed papers with the county indicating the severity of the issues..................

I agree with you that the road should have never been repaired/re-designed to begin with. The money spent to do so turned out to be a temporary repair... and money wasted that could have been put to better use...
How long witll the next repair/re-design last and how much will that cost? We might get a verbal guarantee as it appears we got the last time but I doubt we could get it in writing from anyone...

June

Any shred of hope in making the County (State) responsible for any of this was erased when the POACRE BOD negotiated the SHUR agreement.

Sorry, I just don't get where you are coming from. I believe the STD has public easement clauses which is how this road was paved and re-designed to begin with.... from what I've read, It appears to have been done under the STD.

I realize you don't like the SHUR agreement, fact is, neither did I... As President at the time, I fought against it... Fact of the matter is, the membership voted for it, and the board had to follow the voice of the majority.... Like it or not, thats politics....

June

As one of the families that owns a home at the new "cul-de-sac" at the end of Golden West Way, I can definitely agree that these houses have become unsellable. Which is fantastic since we purchased our home a year ago on the opposite side as the Bay and being newer to the area were not aware of all the issues that had occurred in the area and we were certainly not informed when meeting with the Homeowner's Association. While it is our "fault" that we bought this house, we would have never purchased this home if it was at the end of the street and you had to travel all through the windy, potholed roads of CRE to get to the house. This wasn't supposed to be our forever home, but with the destruction of the street it will have to be. I don't blame POACRE for the damage to the Cliff (that would be ridiculous) or for closing the road, but let's be honest, they should have never repaired the road the first time around before the catastrophic failure and maybe they should have filed papers with the county indicating the severity of the issues. I feel like the problems were hidden from us. The other houses may fall into the Bay and I'll get the Bay front I could never afford, but I'll be stuck in the house until we die because the market for a house in that area will plummet. I'm rambling, but I think some people bought houses in the area without knowing all the history, but the history wasn't reported so the potential buyers couldn't do their homework.

My sympathies go out to you for your unfortunate situation. There is no full disclosure when buying in CRE. This community was never intended to be what it has become, but rather a summer vacation spot. That's the reason why some people have houses in ditches with piss poor drainage. No, they shouldn't have been able to build, but they were. Now we are presented with a bad situation that has been compounded with many, many years of thievery and mismanagement. The only recourse for residents of CRE is to move and that is not an option for many people.

If GWW was truly re-designed and paved through the STD...
Why can't the STD pay 1/2 the cost if there is a decision to repair?

June

WUSA 9 did a segment on the cliffs at 6pm. I'm sure you can find the video on their website...

I'll ask it again because no one seems to want to give a straight answer....

It's a yes or no question...

Yes or no.... was the engineer who condemned the road hired to find a solution for the cliff issue?

Sorry, I just don't get where you are coming from. I believe the STD has public easement clauses which is how this road was paved and re-designed to begin with.... from what I've read, It appears to have been done under the STD.

I realize you don't like the SHUR agreement, fact is, neither did I... As President at the time, I fought against it... Fact of the matter is, the membership voted for it, and the board had to follow the voice of the majority.... Like it or not, thats politics....

June


And what part of the following didn't you understand when you signed it:

DEED OF PUBLIC ACCESS AND EASEMENT

PAGE 2

PARAGRAPH # 1. Grantor (POACRE) is and shall remain responsible for the maintenance of all those roads set forth in Exhibit A as required by the declarations, whehter or not SHUR funds are received.


PARAGRAPH #3. Grantee (County) has no obligation to provide funds to Grantor, other than as contemplated by the terms of this Agreement and pursuant to the procedures and formula set forth in Exhibit B, attached hereto and made a part hereof.

PARAGRAPH #5. Nothing in this document shall be construed to mean that the Grantee is any way obligated to accept ownership of and/or responsibility for the maintenance of the roads or roadbeds described in attachment A.

PARAGRAPH #7. The Grantor hereby indemnifies and holds the county harmless from all liability associated with the maintenance of the association roads included in the Grantee's road inventory report and the expenditures of the SHUR.

AND THE COUP DE GRACE:

Bottom of page 2, top of page 3. "The Grantor warrants specially said easement and it will execute such further assurances thereof as the Grantee may request."

Comprehension is an important part of reading.

And what part of the following didn't you understand when you signed it:

DEED OF PUBLIC ACCESS AND EASEMENT

PAGE 2

PARAGRAPH # 1. Grantor (POACRE) is and shall remain responsible for the maintenance of all those roads set forth in Exhibit A as required by the declarations, whehter or not SHUR funds are received.


PARAGRAPH #3. Grantee (County) has no obligation to provide funds to Grantor, other than as contemplated by the terms of this Agreement and pursuant to the procedures and formula set forth in Exhibit B, attached hereto and made a part hereof.

PARAGRAPH #5. Nothing in this document shall be construed to mean that the Grantee is any way obligated to accept ownership of and/or responsibility for the maintenance of the roads or roadbeds described in attachment A.

PARAGRAPH #7. The Grantor hereby indemnifies and holds the county harmless from all liability associated with the maintenance of the association roads included in the Grantee's road inventory report and the expenditures of the SHUR.

AND THE COUP DE GRACE:

Bottom of page 2, top of page 3. "The Grantor warrants specially said easement and it will execute such further assurances thereof as the Grantee may request."

Comprehension is an important part of reading.


And your point is....??

As a board member doing their duty to the association,
I fought it, and lost via ballot that went to the members....
The majority won so .....

yes, I signed it

Is that what you want? For me to admit such...
I have no problem doing so...
Still don't see your point... Try again...??

June

I just saw this on fox 5 news. They made it seem VERY dramatic:killingme

I just saw this on fox 5 news. They made it seem VERY dramatic:killingme


Yep... I saw it too. I did feel sad about the dogs that wondered off the cliffs tho.

I still have questions about all the Special Taxing District funding spent on design of that road.

Yep... I saw it too. I did feel sad about the dogs that wondered off the cliffs tho.

I still have questions about all the Special Taxing District funding spent on design of that road.

As a resident of CRE for 3 years now, I have read with great interest, tempered with a lot of skepticism, the back and forth banter pertaining to our community, but this one seems to top them all. I also watched the piece Fox 5 did last night on the cliffs and they seemed to want to make it all about the beetle...

It said that county, state, and federal authorities have been pressed for years for a solution, but no help has yet come. What did you expect them to do?

You people built or bought your houses on a cliff, did you not imagine that would be a problem at some point? I lived for in southern CA for a number of years and they keep making the same stupid decision there, and guess what, their houses are falling into the sea. You knew the risk when you bought. You also should have known that we live in an era where flies, and turtles, and beetles, trump human's when it comes to habitat and preservation. You gambled and lost. I'm sorry you lost your 10 ft hot-tub, be thankful you weren't in it when it went over.

The piece also mentioned a 9 yr old girl being killed a few years ago, how long ago did that really happen?

As a resident of CRE for 3 years now, I have read with great interest, tempered with a lot of skepticism, the back and forth banter pertaining to our community, but this one seems to top them all. I also watched the piece Fox 5 did last night on the cliffs and they seemed to want to make it all about the beetle...

It said that county, state, and federal authorities have been pressed for years for a solution, but no help has yet come. What did you expect them to do?

You people built or bought your houses on a cliff, did you not imagine that would be a problem at some point? I lived for in southern CA for a number of years and they keep making the same stupid decision there, and guess what, their houses are falling into the sea. You knew the risk when you bought. You also should have known that we live in an era where flies, and turtles, and beetles, trump human's when it comes to habitat and preservation. You gambled and lost. I'm sorry you lost your 10 ft hot-tub, be thankful you weren't in it when it went over.

The piece also mentioned a 9 yr old girl being killed a few years ago, how long ago did that really happen?

Very well said. In CA homeowners are told to evacuate...CRE people think somebody should wait on them hand and foot to save their house. If there are only 300 beetles in this critical area and only one of the places IN THE WORLD...people building their houses on top of THEIR habitat...sorry but you need to move. Oh and the guy that lost his hot tub...he throws a lot of his garbage over the cliff as well. Not to mention the dozens of trees that people have cut down and pushed over the edge of the cliff...I wonder if they went through the proper channels for that...

As for the bolded, here is a the news article... 1996

SECTION OF CALVERT CLIFFS COLLAPSES AND KILLS GIRL - 12-YEAR-OLD BURIED DURING WALK WITH FAMILY
Washington Post - Tuesday, July 2, 1996
Author: Todd Shields, Washington Post Staff Writer

A section of the renowned Calvert Cliffs broke loose and buried a 12-year-old girl in dirt, killing her as she was walking along the Chesapeake Bay shore in Southern Maryland with her mother and brother, police said yesterday.

Wendy M. Miller, of Lusby, died Sunday at the base of a 150-foot-tall cliff near Driftwood Beach in Lusby, according to the Calvert County Sheriff's Department.

"It's just a totally freak accident. They were just walking. They weren't doing any digging at all," said Lt. Thomas Buckler Jr. "It was just bad timing."

The Calvert Cliffs , known for rich fossil lodes, run for about 30 miles along Calvert County's shore. The cliffs are eroding and regularly shed rocks and dirt, and fossil-hunters are admonished not to climb them.

Police said they could not recall another person killed by debris from the cliffs .

Wendy; her mother, Debra Miller; and Wendy's younger brother, Shawn, left Driftwood Beach for a shoreline stroll sometime before 3 p.m., police said.

Miller and her son had ranged a few yards ahead when they heard the dirt slide from the cliff face behind them. They turned but could not see Wendy, Buckler said.

Mother and son ran to the dirt slide and searched, but could not find the girl, Buckler said. The son ran back to the beach about 200 yards away to ask for help, and some of the volunteer rescuers noticed the girl's hair and dug her out.

Attempts to revive the girl failed. Rescue teams had to bring a boat to shore to remove her because the beach was too rugged for vehicles.

The dirt slide apparently was the second within a week at the same spot. The first slide left a pile of debris. "She was on the side of that when another part of the embankment slid down," Buckler said.

Thanks for the info...a 12 year old girl 13 years ago is a far cry from a 9 yr old girl a few years ago...guess that was more dramatic for the report.

And your point is....??

As a board member doing their duty to the association,
I fought it, and lost via ballot that went to the members....
The majority won so .....

yes, I signed it

Is that what you want? For me to admit such...
I have no problem doing so...
Still don't see your point... Try again...??

June

The point is that NEVER ONCE DURING YOUR ADMINISTRATION OR ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATION NEGOTIATING THIS INSTRUMENT did you EVER PUBLISH THE DOCUMENT FOR THOSE VOTING SO THEY COULD SEE WHAT THEY WERE VOTING FOR!!!!

All anybody ever got was the Board's propaganda about how rich our road system would be if we got the SHUR funding.

Yes, I hold you and all other board members involved entirely accountable.

You people built or bought your houses on a cliff, did you not imagine that would be a problem at some point? I lived for in southern CA for a number of years and they keep making the same stupid decision there, and guess what, their houses are falling into the sea. You knew the risk when you bought. You also should have known that we live in an era where flies, and turtles, and beetles, trump human's when it comes to habitat and preservation. You gambled and lost. I'm sorry you lost your 10 ft hot-tub, be thankful you weren't in it when it went over.



Again I have to put at least some responsbility for the zoning of the neighborhood. While I agree that there is an obvious risk in building on ANY cliff in the world, there has to be some level of assurance that the assessment done by the county means *something* and that the lot is actually buildable. People are assessed when they live in a flood plain but there was no indication that the lots purchased in this area were in any way "critical" lots. The responsibility is at least two fold, because I do hold the folks who bought the houses accountable for a portion, but it's not right to indicate that these people were playing with fire when building/purchasing their homes because all the information provided to them indicated that it was safe.

CRE have it's own little section on here? I thought they did, so we didn't have to look at this, but maybe not. :shrug: Course, I don't have to look, so I won't, just wondering what happened to the CRE blog/section?

Actually, I appreciate the fact that all of this is 'out in the open' so to speak. They do have their own private forum (I see them talking about it in this thread) but CRE (specifically the HOA/board or whatever they call it) has so many things going on that having this information accessable to those that want to read it is great. This forum is one of the biggest reasons that we chose not to buy in CRE when we were house hunting. We actually looked at a couple of houses over there and found one that we really liked at a great price - but after reading all of the HOA crap here on the forums and then talking and confirming the stuff with a couple of families that live there, we decided that we didn't want to put up with the drama.

A lot of people who are relocating to the area read these forums - I know the first thing I did when I found out we were moving here a couple of years ago was to google some info on SoMD - and the forums popped right up. I learned a lot of things about the area from the forums before we even left Florida - and almost everything was spot on. So I think it is a good resource for those who are moving to the area to utilize - maybe not so good for those in CRE who are trying to sell their house, because the 'dirty laundry' does hurt them... but it is what it is. I'm sure CRE is a nice little community, but I can't imagine going through all of the crap that the residents there are having to deal with right now - paying for the natural erosion of other people's property, fighting a frivolous lawsuit over some whales, etc. - and I know I would hate paying dues for stuff like this. So thank goodness that the CRE info is public, or we might be really unhappy homeowners right now (unhappy with the HOA/community drama) and I'm sure that applies to a lot of other people who stumble upon the forums before moving here.

lisa8439, I am glad you were so enlightened to read the forums before choosing an area to live.

I also read the forums before I purchased in CRE. Like many online environments there will be all kinds of statements made. Some will be from people who actually know something of what they are talking about. Some will be "other statements". Unfortunately, people like to read about the "other statements" more than boring reality.

POACRE has issues like every other HOA in the country, there are numerous blogs and forum threads dedicated to the harassment of people who step up in their communities and volunteer their time. They become targets of others that are angry and need to vent on someone.

This is not a POACRE induced phenomena, just human nature.

People complain openly about POACRE. Issues are discussed, sometimes intensely. That may be viewed by some as a bad thing. The reality is, there are a large number of residence that really care about the community. We share ownership!

The community is scrambling in every way possible to take care of our fellow members on the cliffs. The community scrambles everyday to ensure safety from traffic issues, crime, drugs and most important, pothole free roads. This is not accomplished by only the government or the employees of POACRE, but every resident.

We air our "dirty laundry" on the forums because there are so many of us, 4000+ homes over 10,000 people. It is impossible to get the word out in a way that meets everyones needs.

Some people may read the forums and see the bad things. I read the forums and saw a community that communicates and gets things done.

I do not believe everyone has your view. I hope anyone that moves here does so fully informed and ready to be a part of a very large and serious community.

I am glad you are a happy homeowner, but to inform the public that is reading this thread. So am I.

Disclaimer: I live in POACRE

As a resident of CRE for 3 years now, I have read with great interest, tempered with a lot of skepticism, the back and forth banter pertaining to our community, but this one seems to top them all. I also watched the piece Fox 5 did last night on the cliffs and they seemed to want to make it all about the beetle...

It said that county, state, and federal authorities have been pressed for years for a solution, but no help has yet come. What did you expect them to do?

You people built or bought your houses on a cliff, did you not imagine that would be a problem at some point? I lived for in southern CA for a number of years and they keep making the same stupid decision there, and guess what, their houses are falling into the sea. You knew the risk when you bought. You also should have known that we live in an era where flies, and turtles, and beetles, trump human's when it comes to habitat and preservation. You gambled and lost. I'm sorry you lost your 10 ft hot-tub, be thankful you weren't in it when it went over.

The piece also mentioned a 9 yr old girl being killed a few years ago, how long ago did that really happen?

That's exactly how I feel. My house is over by the campgrounds. During Huricane Floyd a huge oak [owned by CRE on CRE property that skirts my property] fell into the ravine that goes down one side of my property. It took a chunk of my land with it. That chunk was big enough to park a compact car in. First of all I was thrilled that the tree didn't fall the other way and take out my house. Then I was amazed at the huge hole in my yard. It's now a great place to put all the leaves and limbs that fall.

I would never have thought about having my neighbors pay for the loss of land. Trees fall.... cliffs fall into the bay... it's nature....

I noticed that not one of those people mentioned where the gray water or septic goes from their houses.

I am, however, a little annoyed that we spent so much money on extra engineering of that section of Golden West Way with Special Taxing District funds [which we are required to pay] and no one has gone out to the original engineer of the STD work for an opinion.... that sucks:coffee:

Endangered Bug Set to Bring Down a Community - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16293)

Saw this today, I can't believe people could lose their homes because of a bug, unreal.

Endangered Bug Set to Bring Down a Community - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16293)

Saw this today, I can't believe people could lose their homes because of a bug, unreal.

It is unfortunate but if the two are mutually exclusive I want the bugs to be saved.

Endangered Bug Set to Bring Down a Community - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News (http://thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/16293)

Saw this today, I can't believe people could lose their homes because of a bug, unreal.

I can't believe people were stupid enough to build a house on top of sand and expect it to stay forever. The cost to properly shore up the cliffs...where it would actually make a difference...would be almost 200 million dollars. I don't see anyone in the ranch club coming up with that.

It is unfortunate but if the two are mutually exclusive I want the bugs to be saved.

The problem on the cliff has absolutely nothing to do with the bug. The bug is a political scapegoat. Permits from DNR are available to do anything the homeowner's need to do to save their property.

It is just very curious that the HOA would jump in and play this card the way they have by feeding the media a bunch of crap. And just as the legislature is coming into session. hmmmm

Although I believe HOTCOFFEE is on the wrong blame track, her suspiscions are correct.

The problem on the cliff has absolutely nothing to do with the bug. The bug is a political scapegoat. Permits from DNR are available to do anything the homeowner's need to do to save their property.

It is just very curious that the HOA would jump in and play this card the way they have by feeding the media a bunch of crap. And just as the legislature is coming into session. hmmmm

Although I believe HOTCOFFEE is on the wrong blame track, her suspiscions are correct.
I figured as much and think the tone of the article is ridiculous.

But seriously, what is going on with the road, is it in danger of collapse? I know this question has been asked over and over again but I still feel very vague on the subject. Just what the hell is going on? Why are we so broke?

According to what was said at the meeting we can no longer even afford to maintain our community. How can we even think about shoring up cliffs or throwing millions at GoldenWest when we can even put gravel on the roads or fix the massive potholes that pock most of the side roads?

What game is the HOA playing and to what end?

I figured as much and think the tone of the article is ridiculous.

But seriously, what is going on with the road, is it in danger of collapse? I know this question has been asked over and over again but I still feel very vague on the subject. Just what the hell is going on? Why are we so broke?

According to what was said at the meeting we can no longer even afford to maintain our community. How can we even think about shoring up cliffs or throwing millions at GoldenWest when we can even put gravel on the roads or fix the massive potholes that pock most of the side roads?

What game is the HOA playing and to what end?

The only question that I can answer with confidence is about the road and the cliffs. Yes, GWW will collapse in an area about 700 feet long between the Road closed signs. It is unsafe, and has been for many years.

The rest of your questions have a variety of answers but I believe several things:

(1) Why are we so broke? First it is because of financial mismanagement. Second, is because the obvious solution is about POACRE giving up control of the roads to a municipality. The Board's just simply won't go there.

(2) Shoring up the cliffs is not an option except POSSIBLY at the point of road failure on GWW, and then I don't think even that is feasible.

(3) The POACRE administration has been operating politically, catering to certain special interest groups among us since the beginning. The airport is singularly the most powerful of these groups, and they are smart enough to let in the other special interests but still control them.

The last item is something that is a matter of fact, not opinion. POACRE does not have legal authority over the covenants. There is no document that passed any such authority to the HOA from the Court or Recievers as was alleged in the 1988 covenant vote. I have a complete set of the 1988 closing documents and can show exactly what was assigned to POACRE and what was not. Covenant authority was not assigned.

They have no authority to levy fines, and they are in possession of a legal opinion issued in 1993 from Silverman and Schilds law firm clearly telling them that fines on property owners are not enforceable and illegal. I have a copy of that opinion. There is a companion set of POACRE Board internal correspondence where they discussed simply ignoring the legal opinion and taking their chances in court. An amazing thing to read.

...
....

They have no authority to levy fines, and they are in possession of a legal opinion issued in 1993 from Silverman and Schilds law firm clearly telling them that fines on property owners are not enforceable and illegal. I have a copy of that opinion. There is a companion set of POACRE Board internal correspondence where they discussed simply ignoring the legal opinion and taking their chances in court. An amazing thing to read.
I would like to read them.

I would like to read them.

They are all public info. I would invite anyone interested in seeing any of the documents I have to PM me for a date, time, and place in evening or weekends.

Its too bad the POACRE Board refuses to look at them in open meeting and understand what they mean. It would stop a lot of pain and suffering and simplify their jobs if they did. They'd rather lawyer up and take their chance that I'll give up under the duress or the costs of prosecution.

I figured as much and think the tone of the article is ridiculous.

But seriously, what is going on with the road, is it in danger of collapse? I know this question has been asked over and over again but I still feel very vague on the subject. Just what the hell is going on? Why are we so broke?

According to what was said at the meeting we can no longer even afford to maintain our community. How can we even think about shoring up cliffs or throwing millions at GoldenWest when we can even put gravel on the roads or fix the massive potholes that pock most of the side roads?

What game is the HOA playing and to what end?

Shiki, The community is not broke in the sense you are speaking. The budget is designed to address specific issues. The main parts are Maintenance and Operations (M&O) and roads. The roads budget only covers the basics, which includes patch work, snow removal etc... The M&O part takes care of amenities and administration costs.

Roads gets supplemental money from STD and SHUR. This is the money that is primarily used to pave the roads.

M&O gets no supplemental money.

The community wants POACRE to do more than is capable based on the fees received each year. The BOD makes decisions based on the most immediate issue to fund certain projects. (this is were the clique comments are derived)

It has been impossible to develop a strategic plan for the community that the community will support, so we stay at the status quo. This is a loosing battle because costs keep rising and fees stay the same. Everyone has a plan to make the community better but no one seems to know how to share it in a way in which it can be implemented.

So, we have the money to keep the status quo. (which everyone is happy about....?). We cannot do anything other than that without going into complicated financial maneuvers which will upset a majority of the community.

GWW being closed has added stress to the financial situation. (I am sure you are aware of all the litigation). The budget is completely utilized to maintain were we are we cannot deal with GWW or any other issue without tough choices.

I understand exnodaks point (STD) and agree with him on allot of his arguments. That being said, we have to come to terms with reality. We need young members to get involved with passion and ideas that break to old way of thinking. The old way got use to were we are today. We need to accept we are here and move on.

Is the HOA playing games? I volunteer and work with them, I am not on the BOD. I have no agenda, except to improve property values. I read the statements on the forums and went to the Board meetings. At first I agreed with the forums, but over time I have realized that the issues are much more complex than anyone eludes. If there was an easy fix it would have already been done. If people really believe the BOD is playing games and they care about the community they should run for the board. Stop talking a big game and get into it.

Shiki, The community is not broke in the sense you are speaking. The budget is designed to address specific issues. The main parts are Maintenance and Operations (M&O) and roads. The roads budget only covers the basics, which includes patch work, snow removal etc... The M&O part takes care of amenities and administration costs.

Roads gets supplemental money from STD and SHUR. This is the money that is primarily used to pave the roads.

M&O gets no supplemental money.

The community wants POACRE to do more than is capable based on the fees received each year. The BOD makes decisions based on the most immediate issue to fund certain projects. (this is were the clique comments are derived)

It has been impossible to develop a strategic plan for the community that the community will support, so we stay at the status quo. This is a loosing battle because costs keep rising and fees stay the same. Everyone has a plan to make the community better but no one seems to know how to share it in a way in which it can be implemented.

So, we have the money to keep the status quo. (which everyone is happy about....?). We cannot do anything other than that without going into complicated financial maneuvers which will upset a majority of the community.

GWW being closed has added stress to the financial situation. (I am sure you are aware of all the litigation). The budget is completely utilized to maintain were we are we cannot deal with GWW or any other issue without tough choices.

I understand exnodaks point (STD) and agree with him on allot of his arguments. That being said, we have to come to terms with reality. We need young members to get involved with passion and ideas that break to old way of thinking. The old way got use to were we are today. We need to accept we are here and move on.

Is the HOA playing games? I volunteer and work with them, I am not on the BOD. I have no agenda, except to improve property values. I read the statements on the forums and went to the Board meetings. At first I agreed with the forums, but over time I have realized that the issues are much more complex than anyone eludes. If there was an easy fix it would have already been done. If people really believe the BOD is playing games and they care about the community they should run for the board. Stop talking a big game and get into it.

I'm just going by what was said at the meeting. Several board members said "We are broke." and one of the ladies said we do not even have money to maintain the roads. I don't know what the heck is going on but I am concerned.

This was actually a relatively clear posting. I would just like to step in and make a few comments and clarifications.

The community is not broke in the sense you are speaking. The budget is designed to address specific issues. The main parts are Maintenance and Operations (M&O) and roads. The roads budget only covers the basics, which includes patch work, snow removal etc... The M&O part takes care of amenities and administration costs. .

There are actually four budgets.


M&O - covers the maintenance, upgrade, and security of the common properties and amenities [yes there is even a little portion of the M&O Budget that covers some of the administrative costs of the Roads Department Office which is offset by a stipend from the Roads Budget]
Roads- covers the basic maintenance of the roads- including most of the materials, equipment, and payroll costs. [Originally the roads budget would have covered all aspects of the maintenance, repair, and upgrade of the Road System. There were, however, only a couple hundred people here year round back then. The growth of the community was not part of the original plan and the cost of that growth has far exceeded the "built in" annual increase.]
STD - A five year plan allowing CRE to guarantee an additional set amount of income by having it collected along with the real property taxes billed out and paid to the county. This budget is to cover specific upgrade to specific primary road system arteries. It is also to be used for the repair and upgrade of some specific secondary roads. [The five year plan has been renewed due to the fact that it costs a little over a million dollars a mile and it takes time to re-engineer some of these road beds and storm water management issues.]
SHUR- covers the maintenance and upkeep of specified roads as inspected and approved by the State Highway Department[State Highway User Revenue is a little bit of the money paid at the pump when fueling. Historically, CRE has been a private road system. Neither CRE nor the county received any of the SHUR funding that other private communities in other counties received. It is also one of the first expenditures the State may decide to cut so the funding source is less dependable than the others]



M&O gets no supplemental money. .

Actually, this is not so much the case. The current budget only covers the expected income billed out for the specific fiscal year. There are additional portions of income which are not included in the budget. These sources include:


Fees and costs billed out in previous years [uncollected funds]
Fines and penalties
Sale of common property as provided for in the governing documents


The Board also has the authority to borrow $100,000.00 without a vote of the membership.

Here's something very dangerous!
In the event of a catastrophic event [mark those words] the Board has the use of the Reserve Funds set aside for events like fire, huricanne, and other catastrophic events.

This income is not dependable so it is not included in the budget. This becomes a little funding source of it's own known as the "Special Projects Fund". The "Projects" on the list for the "Special Projects Fund" are controlled by the Board and the Finance Committee.

The community wants POACRE to do more than is capable based on the fees received each year. The BOD makes decisions based on the most immediate issue to fund certain projects. (this is were the clique comments are derived).

"Wow... that statement is just full of purple KoolAid"

The Board has the authority to re-align the budget. Move funds from one line to another to cover cost overruns. A couple of examples of cost overrun would be:

Esculating fuel or electricity costs
$100,000.00 legal fees on behalf of a group of residents


The Board could just as well have voted to upgrade the playground equipment at one of the amenities or on the other hand the Board could have voted to re-align the workforce by terminating some of the security positions and replacing them with maintenance positions [move payroll funds from security to maintenance].


It has been impossible to develop a strategic plan for the community that the community will support, so we stay at the status quo. This is a loosing battle because costs keep rising and fees stay the same. Everyone has a plan to make the community better but no one seems to know how to share it in a way in which it can be implemented. .

I would love to say "poppykock" but the STD is an excellent example of this type of "planning". Further, when a committee starts to make a little progress they become full of themselves and want to control the world [like buying adtime on TV to promote their latest and greatest survey when they haven't begun to work on the data derived from the first survey they took] and they get into a "P*ss*ng" match with the board [take their ball and go home].

In my humble opinion the development of the 5 year plan is an excellent idea and would be best handled by the Board utilizing all the historical financial data [trending] along with community input from previous surveys. Once developed by the Board, it should be the task of each subsequent Board [with the assistance of the General Manager] to look at the five year plan each year, making adjustments to the projects and budgets of the out years.


So, we have the money to keep the status quo. (which everyone is happy about....?). We cannot do anything other than that without going into complicated financial maneuvers which will upset a majority of the community. .

Simply stated, we need to have a plan and work with that plan. The plan should have some flexibility to allow it to bend with the will of the community, but it should be followed for the best interest of the community as a whole.


GWW being closed has added stress to the financial situation. (I am sure you are aware of all the litigation). The budget is completely utilized to maintain were we are we cannot deal with GWW or any other issue without tough choices. .

Purple KoolAid - straight up!
I would be watching very carefully that this "GWW being closed has added stress to the financial situation." doesn't lead to the depletion of Reserve Funding!

I understand exnodaks point (STD) and agree with him on allot of his arguments. That being said, we have to come to terms with reality. We need young members to get involved with passion and ideas that break to old way of thinking. The old way got use to were we are today. We need to accept we are here and move on. .

Well stated... very well stated.... I would only add that we need to move on with purpose, planning, and resolve... not blindly led by any and every special interest group that comes along....

[Volunteerism speach deleted]

OK... It's the middle of January. We should have a mid-year review and a preliminary 2010-2011 budget in the pipeline now. Do we?

Thank you for reading this... I know it's long winded... sorry.... I tend to get long winded when I "volunteer" for CRE.:coffee: