So you can thank the amateurs for ruining the profession…

Today I was at a swim meet covering the event for the paper/website, and here is a guy shooting (which his name will remain anonymous) and I asked him why don't you charge for your photos on your smugmug account? His reply was I don't have/pay a pro account (this is where you can set your own prices), so I told him this is hurting the guys/gals and yourself trying to put bread on the table. His account (smugmug) allows for anyone to download the images for free or get them printed at cost, basically 0.21 cents for a 4x6.

Now I know he has a LONG way to go on improving to capture peek images, but if there is NO intent of ever becoming a professional, just stay in the stands just like the other parents do. Or if you do then apply at the media outlets and show them your portfolio. I understand you want to get photos of your OWN kids, (which is not the case because he shoots everyone from other teams) but if that was the case EVERYONE with a camera would be on the field, court side, pool side, ect…

You would never show up at a hospital and ask if you can perform surgery because you own a scalpel and have read a lot of articles about the procedure on the internet, so it annoys me to no end that anyone who owns a DSLR thinks they can show up at my place of business and pretend to do my job.

What are your thought other semi / pros out there, or am I way off on this subject??

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

If your stuff is better, folks will pay for it. If its not appreciably better, they wont. Photography isn't open heart surgery, with lives in the balance.

So you can thank the amateurs for ruining the profession…

Today I was at a swim meet covering the event for the paper/website, and here is a guy shooting (which his name will remain anonymous) and I asked him why don't you charge for your photos on your smugmug account? His reply was I don't have/pay a pro account (this is where you can set your own prices), so I told him this is hurting the guys/gals and yourself trying to put bread on the table. His account (smugmug) allows for anyone to download the images for free or get them printed at cost, basically 0.21 cents for a 4x6.

Now I know he has a LONG way to go on improving to capture peek images, but if there is NO intent of ever becoming a professional, just stay in the stands just like the other parents do. Or if you do then apply at the media outlets and show them your portfolio. I understand you want to get photos of your OWN kids, (which is not the case because he shoots everyone from other teams) but if that was the case EVERYONE with a camera would be on the field, court side, pool side, ect…

You would never show up at a hospital and ask if you can perform surgery because you own a scalpel and have read a lot of articles about the procedure on the internet, so it annoys me to no end that anyone who owns a DSLR thinks they can show up at my place of business and pretend to do my job.

What are your thought other semi / pros out there, or am I way off on this subject??Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

Free to do that as long as the areas aren't restricted as in pro events.

If it is YOUR place of business - tell them to leave. But it sounds to me like your at some one else's place - such as a school, college or athletic complex.
So what gives you the right to take and sell the pictures to begin with?

Do you an exclusive agreement for photography with the organizers of the event?

:yawn:

If your stuff is better, folks will pay for it. If its not appreciably better, they wont. Photography isn't open heart surgery, with lives in the balance.

Thanks for replying...Maybe the example was a little harsh, I was just trying to show the extreme...How about I don't show up to a public school and start teaching kids on my own in the cafeteria...something along those lines if you know what I mean.

Plus I was looking for input, like I stated in original post from other semi / pro photographers that understand the profession...

Frank

If it is YOUR place of business - tell them to leave. But it sounds to me like your at some one else's place - such as a school, college or athletic complex.
So what gives you the right to take and sell the pictures to begin with?

Do you an exclusive agreement for photography with the organizers of the event?

Thanks for replying...BUT this is not what I am talking about, I'm talking about just giving your work away because you have a camera strapped around your neck and you want to have field access...

Like stated earlier I'm looking for input from other semi / pro photographers that understand...Unless you are, because know one around here except about 2% of posters don't "Hide" behind some made up name...

Frank

Frank

Free to do that as long as the areas aren't restricted as in pro events.

Thanks for replying...I didn't say it wasn't a problem for them to shoot...I'm taking you are not a semi / pro photographer??? If you are then you would understand...I was looking for input in this "Photography" forum...

Frank

Some of the worlds best and most important photos have been taken by amateurs, and they have no intention of looking for pro status. But they are just as proud of what they have done, probably more so that someone who is only looking for the return on their efforts, and have every right to take their pictures and post them if they so desire.

If you are so worried that non-professionals my be cutting into your returns, then maybe you should concentrate on making sure your product is superior enough to command the price of a professional status.

Some of the worlds best and most important photos have been taken by amateurs, and they have no intention of looking for pro status. But they are just as proud of what they have done, probably more so that someone who is only looking for the return on their efforts, and have every right to take their pictures and post them if they so desire.

If you are so worried that non-professionals my be cutting into your returns, then maybe you should concentrate on making sure your product is superior enough to command the price of a professional status.:yeahthat: :yahoo:

Some of the worlds best and most important photos have been taken by amateurs, and they have no intention of looking for pro status. But they are just as proud of what they have done, probably more so that someone who is only looking for the return on their efforts, and have every right to take their pictures and post them if they so desire.

If you are so worried that non-professionals my be cutting into your returns, then maybe you should concentrate on making sure your product is superior enough to command the price of a professional status.

:yeahthat: :buddies:

If they guy is getting paid for the photo's (pay on print) then he really isn't an amature, is he? The difference between you and him is a business card, maybe a studio, and pricing.

Wow. Puts it out on a public forum and then says he only wants replies from other professionals. Sounds to me more like he only wants replies from people that agree. And please notice that I'm talking to all you other non-professionals so he doesn't get his feelings hurt again.

Wow. Puts it out on a public forum and then says he only wants replies from other professionals. Sounds to me more like he only wants replies from people that agree. And please notice that I'm talking to all you other non-professionals so he doesn't get his feelings hurt again.
Well there are more professional photogs out there than amateurs so it was probably safe to say he wanted only their opinions.

If I am at an event where one of my precious little angels are performing, playing, participating, etc., and I am allowed/afforded the opportunity to take pictures - I may just do that. IF I choose to post them (informally and not charge for them) on the internet, I will do so as I darn well please.

Sheesh!

Well, at least two of my jobs required me to take photographs, so I was a professional, right? I got paid for taking pictures.

Well, at least two of my jobs required me to take photographs, so I was a professional, right? I got paid for taking pictures.

You lost your amateur status! Oh no!

I got paid for one wedding a long time ago, so I guess I have too. Unless there is a time limit and it has run out.

Today I was at a swim meet covering the event for the paper/website...


Seems you were paid for your assignment. I don't see the problem or issue. Just out of curiosity, since you were on the job at the time, doesn't that make the photographs the property of the paper?

The intent of my original reply was to point out that there is no exclusitivity to the right to shoot and distribute photographs of public events in the absence of a contract with the sponsoring organization. Photography is one of the more heavily impacted professions of the "digital age"; however, it is by no means alone in the disruption of traditional professions/jobs. Self check outs eliminate checkers and baggers in supermarkets; ATM and debit cards eliminate gas station attendants and station clerks. The expert in engineering drawing requirements twenty years ago needs a complete retraining to even be conversant in the field today because engineering designs are no longer reduced to two dimensional sheet of mylar, but instead are fed directly into digitally controlled machining centers.

Today every body a color camera & video recorder in their cell phone - and can post those pics on the internet and around the world in heartbeat.

Help me understand what OP's complaint is - is he trying to say that regular people shouldn't be able to take pictures and post them online?

Help me understand what OP's complaint is - is he trying to say that regular people shouldn't be able to take pictures and post them online?

Post them online and take money, however small, as they are not pros and he is, therefore they cut into his professionalism and profits.

Post them online and take money, however small, as they are not pros and he is, therefore they cut into his professionalism and profits.

OIC 10Q

Post them online and take money, however small, as they are not pros and he is, therefore they cut into his professionalism and profits.

I thought his complaint was that they were posting them online and offering them for FREE? And because of that nobody would buy his photos?

I take pics and put them online all the time for free. Oopsy, so sorry... but I'm not a pro, so his photos should be way better and worth paying for right? I mean, if they are amatuer quality, then why pay for his when people can take their own anyway?

:confused:

From what I have seen of amatuer vs. pro photos... a real pro takes pics that an amatuer can rarely compete with. The eye, the framing, the way the shutter speed etc is set to capture the motion and lighting of the moment... If he is just blindly shooting photos with no 'art' behind it, well, maybe another career is in order. There is more to pro photography than pointing a high buck F body and going bananas filling a few 16 GB SD cards... :lmao:

This has been a heavily debated topic for the last 5 or 6 years now. I would categorize myself as a "weekend warrior" who goes out and makes some extra cash with my photography hobby. I recently went out and shot a basketball game, not to make money, but to gain some experience in shooting a basketball game. You have to start somewhere right?? The professional photographer... I would categorize those as small business owners who are working to put food on the table with their photography... many upset that someone moved their cheese. Here are some great articles by respected professionals on the subject. These are great reads if you want a true professional photographers opinion on the subject.

zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias » Over Saturated Market You Say? You Can Blame Me. (http://www.zarias.com/over-saturated-market-you-say-you-can-blame-me/#more-1144)

zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias » Cheap Photographers Only Kill Themselves, Not The Industry. (http://www.zarias.com/cheap-photographers-only-kill-themselves-not-the-industry/)

What is the Difference Between Shooting for Free and Shooting for Me? | LIGHTING ESSENTIALS For Photographers (http://www.lighting-essentials.com/what-is-the-difference-between-shooting-for-free-and-shooting-for-me/)

Strobist: Four Reasons to Consider Working for Free (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/12/four-reasons-to-consider-working-for.html)

This is a great read.. Part 2 of a blog post by David Zeiser who talks about what the professional needs to do to stay above the fray.

It’s Guest Blog Wednesday featuring David Ziser (Pt. 2)! « Scott Kelby's Photoshop Insider Blog » Photoshop & Digital Photography Techniques, Tutorials, Books, Reviews & More (http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2011/archives/16836)

The giant's a semi-professional photographer. If he takes pictures of an event he attends because he wants to, he'll share them for free. If he's hired to shoot photographs for an event, such as a wedding, he obviously charges for those.

I think a swim meet is one of those where you take pictures because you want to, not because someone has hired you to take pictures.

It's all about context.

What are your thought other semi / pros out there, or am I way off on this subject??

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

SPAM

I guess it doesnt matter to me because photography is not my main source of income.

This is really assinine, seriously.

I make things out of wood that are quite nice and give them away to friends and I don't see professinal carpenters and woodworkers beating down my door.

If you can't compete with an ameature then you need to find a new job.

So just because you charge money for the photos classifies you as a professional?, and should give you rights over people that don't, I photograph events for the town, why? they ask me too, the lady from the newspaper and I have an unspoken rule, she doesn't step on my toes, I don't step on hers, same for weddings were a backup photographer is asked for (they get the big shots, I do the backstage, everyone gets along,) unless it is a massive print order I don't charge a thing, why? I have a good job doing something else, Photography is a hobby, and if my photos are better than yours, Tuff S&*t, IF it is a public event or place no one has the right to barr me from taking pictures

I guess it doesnt matter to me because photography is not my main source of income.
My thoughts exactly, I do it cause I enjoy it,

:roflmao:

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

Global effects??? :killingme Heaven forbid if a relative goes to a game and takes a picture of his nephew, does that mean you will have to eat macaroni for a week? Darn relatives always mucking stuff up for the pros! :killingme

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

I used to install satellite systems professionally, I couldn't fathom complaining that a knowledgeable person helped someone install a system without calling me.

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)
Maybe if it was in a forum titled "JOBS or PROFESSIONS", but since it is titled "HOBBIES and PERSONAL INTERESTS" I would think that most in here would be amateurs/hobbyists.

He was answered by a professional. I used to be a pro underwater photographer. I wouldn't think twice about giving an amateur tips and tricks rather than biatch about how someone was ruining my livelihood. They were no threat to me.

I used to install satellite systems professionally, I couldn't fathom complaining that a knowledgeable person helped someone install a system without calling me.

Damn, man, I am sorry. I installed my own dish three times. And installed one for a 70yo lady. And fixed my mother in laws install. I ruined it for you.Can you forgive me :buddies:

Damn, man, I am sorry. I installed my own dish three times. And installed one for a 70yo lady. And fixed my mother in laws install. I ruined it for you.Can you forgive me :buddies:

Well just don't fix your own computer, car or tackle home improvements. Think of all the money you are taking from the professionals! If you decide to be a rebel, do not take pictures of your progress!

Love this thread I got a good laugh

I am going to start charging big $$ for my photos. No one will buy them but hey if one sells I will be rich.

Well just don't fix your own computer, car or tackle home improvements. Think of all the money you are taking from the professionals! If you decide to be a rebel, do not take pictures of your progress!

Oh, hell, I've wrecked the whole damn economy. Tens of folks, out of work, because i can swap an engine and rebuild a bathroom. :cds: And the boy!!!!!! He built his own computer this Christmas!!!!!! Wait, does this mean I should never cook again either? Wouldt want to put all those busboys and cooks out of work. I suppose I should sell the car too, since there I dont want to ruin the limousine industry.

I hung my own curtains today. I guess I've caused an interior decorator to miss out on some income and may have to go on food stamps. :bawl:

Probably should have picked a career that demanded a B.S degree, certification, special training, or perhaps was not so competitive when it comes to the amount of people involved, I still look at it as an art, hobby

So you can thank the amateurs for ruining the profession…

Today I was at a swim meet covering the event for the paper/website, and here is a guy shooting (which his name will remain anonymous) and I asked him why don't you charge for your photos on your smugmug account? His reply was I don't have/pay a pro account (this is where you can set your own prices), so I told him this is hurting the guys/gals and yourself trying to put bread on the table. His account (smugmug) allows for anyone to download the images for free or get them printed at cost, basically 0.21 cents for a 4x6.

Now I know he has a LONG way to go on improving to capture peek images, but if there is NO intent of ever becoming a professional, just stay in the stands just like the other parents do. Or if you do then apply at the media outlets and show them your portfolio. I understand you want to get photos of your OWN kids, (which is not the case because he shoots everyone from other teams) but if that was the case EVERYONE with a camera would be on the field, court side, pool side, ect…

You would never show up at a hospital and ask if you can perform surgery because you own a scalpel and have read a lot of articles about the procedure on the internet, so it annoys me to no end that anyone who owns a DSLR thinks they can show up at my place of business and pretend to do my job.

What are your thought other semi / pros out there, or am I way off on this subject??

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

Hi Frank. My interest here is that one of my kids is seeking to do this for a living. I understand your OP in terms of recommending amateurs charge at least something for shots that are more or less directly competing with your work and, as long as there are no copyright issues, I would concur; why not charge a few books as easy as it is these days to take pics, load them and set up a paypal or other service to get paid.

Now, that said, how much traffic is someone like you mention getting anyway? I mean, if they are building a reputation and a following, lots of hits, sure they really ought to consider charging. But, how much of an impact do the people you are talking about really have?

You mention you were at the meet professionally. Are they cutting your pay? Using free pictures? I mean, whomever is paying you, sending you to the meet has some business model to place value on your shots over stuff they find on the web, right? And then, can they really use someones free pics for publication?

Explain how all that works because, while I sympathize with objecting to people giving lots of good shots away for free to strangers, I also suspect that their impact can't really be that much in terms of why a pro is getting sent, and paid, in the first place.

Or no? :buddies:

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

I would spend time working on a new business plan rather than trying to find people that agree with you on a forum.

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)If amatuers are taking away your profits, what does that say about your ability?

Let me see if I understand this. In my opinion, there are 2 ways a "pro" photographer can make money:

1. He/she is contracted prior to the event (wedding for example). In this example, if he/she does quality work, they get paid. If there is no quality work, then they would not get paid unless there was a stipulation in the signed contract.
2. He/she is not contracted prior to the event (swim meet) and hopes to sell photos after the event to interested parties. I liken this to a cruise where the cruise line snaps pictures during an event (boarding for example) in the hopes of selling pics. Again, if the quality is there and the customer deems it is worth the price, the customer will buy.

It all boils down to quality of the photos and the agreed upon price. If the customer feels they are getting a deal, they will pay for the service.

Having had photos taken on cruises, I can honestly state there were very few times I felt the need to spend 20 bucks on an 8 by 10 photo - regardless if some amateur shot a photo or not of the same event.

What is the true cost of snapping a digital picture, downloading it to a computer, photoshopping if needed (red eye), then printing it out for the customer? Even if you were to charge 20 bucks an hour, I figure 15 minutes to photoshop a pic...so that is 5 bucks. Professional printing paper probably costs 2 bucks a sheet...so I come up with 7. Why charge 20? Lowering the cost might enhance some sales.

Again, I am not a pro...and I do understand mark ups...perhaps my numbers are off...but I find it difficult to believe that 20 bucks is a fair price for 1 8 by 10 photo.

What is the true cost of snapping a digital picture, downloading it to a computer, photoshopping if needed (red eye), then printing it out for the customer? Even if you were to charge 20 bucks an hour, I figure 15 minutes to photoshop a pic...so that is 5 bucks. Professional printing paper probably costs 2 bucks a sheet...so I come up with 7. Why charge 20? Lowering the cost might enhance some sales.

Again, I am not a pro...and I do understand mark ups...perhaps my numbers are off...but I find it difficult to believe that 20 bucks is a fair price for 1 8 by 10 photo.

Retiredweaxman, There are some more costs that you haven't thought of for a photographer covering an event. There are a few different ways photogs do events. Some shoot an event for a paper, and then try to privately sell. This can make some extra bucks here and there. Other photographers get a contract with the event or school and become the official photog for that event. This will cost the photog either straight out of his pocket or a percent of his sales. The third way is to be hired by parents of the kids to shoot their child at the event. This is usually for a fee and they pay for prints after.
The other items that you have to factor in, equipment, travel expense to and from the event, photogs time shooting that event, cost of software, and insurance on you gear. For example if a photog travels to say high school "X" fifteen miles away. That is 30 miles round trip, and about 40 minutes of driving time to cover a 2-3 hour event. Now we are at close to 3-4 hours if you include processing the photo. Equipment can run a photographer a lot of money. From mid level to upper level DSLR with lenses your are looking at $10,000 to $30,000 that a photog can carry to an event. Then also figure in the cost of a program like Photoshop or Lightroom. Granted you have to spread all these cost out over a lot of sells, but you can see how it brings the cost of a photo up.

This debate has been going for years and is nothing new. Pros miss out on possible sells do to parents with a camera, taking photos at the same event. In most cases people aren't interested in quality of the photos, just that they get one of their child playing a sport. The best way for a pro to make it in event photography is to contract with the school to be the official photog. This usually means the pro would have sideline access and others would not be able to shoot from the same areas. I have shot events like this before, even swim meets. Parents had to stay back from the pool a certain distance, while myself and the photographer I was working for could get right up to the edge of the pool. The biggest thing though, is your photos have to stand out over what others are shooting, in quality and in capturing the right moments.

Do I wish people would not give their photos away, yes I do. Is there anything I can do about it, nope! So I move on, take the best photos I can, and try to stand out over and above the others taking photos at the event.

I am not a pro, I don't make 51% of my living taking photos, but I have worked news media, events, and private sells of photography, so classify me as you will.

Retiredweaxman, There are some more costs that you haven't thought of for a photographer covering an event. There are a few different ways photogs do events. Some shoot an event for a paper, and then try to privately sell. This can make some extra bucks here and there. Other photographers get a contract with the event or school and become the official photog for that event. This will cost the photog either straight out of his pocket or a percent of his sales. The third way is to be hired by parents of the kids to shoot their child at the event. This is usually for a fee and they pay for prints after.
The other items that you have to factor in, equipment, travel expense to and from the event, photogs time shooting that event, cost of software, and insurance on you gear. For example if a photog travels to say high school "X" fifteen miles away. That is 30 miles round trip, and about 40 minutes of driving time to cover a 2-3 hour event. Now we are at close to 3-4 hours if you include processing the photo. Equipment can run a photographer a lot of money. From mid level to upper level DSLR with lenses your are looking at $10,000 to $30,000 that a photog can carry to an event. Then also figure in the cost of a program like Photoshop or Lightroom. Granted you have to spread all these cost out over a lot of sells, but you can see how it brings the cost of a photo up.

This debate has been going for years and is nothing new. Pros miss out on possible sells do to parents with a camera, taking photos at the same event. In most cases people aren't interested in quality of the photos, just that they get one of their child playing a sport. The best way for a pro to make it in event photography is to contract with the school to be the official photog. This usually means the pro would have sideline access and others would not be able to shoot from the same areas. I have shot events like this before, even swim meets. Parents had to stay back from the pool a certain distance, while myself and the photographer I was working for could get right up to the edge of the pool. The biggest thing though, is your photos have to stand out over what others are shooting, in quality and in capturing the right moments.

Do I wish people would not give their photos away, yes I do. Is there anything I can do about it, nope! So I move on, take the best photos I can, and try to stand out over and above the others taking photos at the event.

I am not a pro, I don't make 51% of my living taking photos, but I have worked news media, events, and private sells of photography, so classify me as you will.

Well said Jason, thank you...! This thread was taking the wrong turn.

Frank

Frank, I understand your side of the discussion, but the other side is valid as well. It is up to that individual what they want to do with their images. The market is driven by many things, you could blame Nikon and Canon just as much as a photographer giving images away. Like someone posted in this thread. The same argument could be made about me or you running our own coax for TV, changing a part in our own car, or working on our own computers. Think of how many times you have read what pro photogs advise people to do to get their start in sports photography. They say submit your photos to a local media, even suggest giving them a few freebies. Just to get in the door. That is supposed to help you get media creds, but is it not taking away from someone elses paycheck?

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell. Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug (http://www.fmarquart.smugmug.com)

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

:popcorn:

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

You have a lot to learn about the business BUT let me help you:

Model Releases are only necessary to publish pictures.
Even then, very specific guidelines are necessary to trigger the need for a release: if the photo suggests someone subscribes to a particular idea, product or service.
It is highly unusual that photographers ever publish images in a manner that requires a model release.
Photographers sell (or license) photos to others who publish those images.
Selling or licensing photos does not require a release.
Such is not a form of publication, nor is it an action that suggests anything about the person in the photo. It is merely a financial transaction.
Placing photos on websites for the purposes of selling them does not require a model release. It is what courts have called a vehicle of information (that the photo is for sale). The buyer of the photo may need a release if and only if the nature of its publication would trigger the need for a release.
Money or profit has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a release is required.
Because the need for a release is only governed by how and whether the person in the photo might be regarded as subscribing to an idea, product or service, it is entirely irrelevant whether money (profit) was made. Similarly, even free uses of photos (or use by non-profits) does not mean that releases are not required. Get the whole idea of money out of your mind.

The easy way to think about this is the simple case of a photo of a high school football player scoring a touchdown, lets say. You can put it up on your website and license it to a newspaper as part of its story on the game. The fact that its editorial means that a release isn't necessary. That you can sell it for such a purpose underscores the reason why you can place it for sale without a release. Just because someone else might want to license the photo in a way that would require a release doesn't suddenly mean you can't place it on your site for sale. Selling doesn't require a release, and you aren't required to know whether a given buyer would require a release for their particular use.

Hope that helps...?

Frank - And yes this is my 'real' name, I don't need to hide behind a screen name...

You have a lot to learn about the business BUT let me help you:


I'm not in the business, BUT thanks for the help anyway. I'll still heed the advice of my friends that are in the business and are true professionals: Get releases or stick with landscapes and still life. Legal or not, I, like them, wouldn't even consider taking pictures of boys and girls wearing wrestling tights and cheerleader outfits then selling them online, especially without even bothering to inform the kids and their parents and getting their consent. Apparently you have no problem doing so, yet you keep your family albums private and restricted from public view.

But you still haven't answered the important question: You were paid to cover the event in question - you gots yo monies. Why do you care that some parents were offering free shots to other parents at the event? Friends can't email other friends crappy point-n-shoot action shots done under poor lighting conditions using an uber-slow, fixed-focus 5x digital zoom 28mm lens (while using the built-in flash from 150 feet away of course), without running you and your $10,000 canikon lens out of business? Seriously?

Legal or not, I, like them, wouldn't even consider taking pictures of boys and girls wearing wrestling tights and cheerleader outfits then selling them online, especially without even bothering to inform the kids and their parents and getting their consent.That is a slightly asinine comment. What you are not counting in is implied consent by their (the athletes and their parents) presence at the event. Why should it be ANY bystander's concern what the kids are wearing? :rolleyes:


Friends can't email other friends crappy point-n-shoot action shots done under poor lighting conditions using an uber-slow, fixed-focus 5x digital zoom 28mm lens (while using the built-in flash from 150 feet away of course), without running you and your $10,000 canikon lens out of business? Seriously?You should go to Best Buy or somewhere; P&S cameras have come a long way in the past decade. :wink:

That is a slightly asinine comment. What you are not counting in is implied consent by their (the athletes and their parents) presence at the event. Why should it be ANY bystander's concern what the kids are wearing? :rolleyes:


You should go to Best Buy or somewhere; P&S cameras have come a long way in the past decade. :wink:

Photographs in schools can be taken by anyone, if the parents do not want their child's picture taken they must fill out the form that comes with the paperwork issued by the school each year ( I actually had to look that one up)

Today's dslr's are affordable to most people, and very user friendly, anyone that doesn't mind pushing buttons and flippin switches can take some right decent photos

Three things:

1. In an effort to consolidate account names on various forums to a single user name, this is my new account (formerly IntruderAlert)

2. I let emotions get the best of me in this thread and let things get to far so I would like to apologize to Frank and the other posters in this thread for this.

3. Frank, I checked out some of your sports shots and they are truely excellent. You have nothing to worry about from amateurs.

Three things:

1. In an effort to consolidate account names on various forums to a single user name, this is my new account (formerly IntruderAlert)

2. I let emotions get the best of me in this thread and let things get to far so I would like to apologize to Frank and the other posters in this thread for this.

3. Frank, I checked out some of your sports shots and they are truely excellent. You have nothing to worry about from amateurs.

Thank you JimD, I appreciate the kind words... I wasn't worried about the type (quality) of photos he was producing (he has a long way to go, and he will come along) But parents sometimes don't care how bad or good the photo looks they just want a shot of their kid, and if its 'free' they are even happier, that's how it hurts us...That's all I was trying to put out there...Maybe one day we will meet on the sidelines and if you need help I will be there, just ask...!

Frank