Today at noon Mass the visiting priest's homily reflected on the first reading from today (below). Of course, these passages from James got Luther in a tizzy--we know why of course. To those of you who are fond of backing your practices and beliefs up with scripture, I really don't understand how you can explain away this one. Even those that did have come around-see link.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html)


James 2:14-24, 26

What good is it, my brothers and sisters,
if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear
and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them,
"Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,"
but you do not give them the necessities of the body,
what good is it?
So also faith of itself,
if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say,
"You have faith and I have works."
Demonstrate your faith to me without works,
and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one.
You do well.
Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus,
that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works
when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works,
and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the Scripture was fulfilled that says,
Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him as righteousness,
and he was called the friend of God.
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
For just as a body without a spirit is dead,
so also faith without works is dead.

Let's start with the example James used: Abraham.

Chronologically speaking, which came first for Abraham, faith credited as righteousness (justification) or works?

Did Yahweh choose Abram or did Abram choose Yahweh?

The epistle of James is a fantastic book dealing with the practical aspects of Christian conduct and how faith works in our everyday lives.

Good to read, over and over....

Today at noon Mass the visiting priest's homily reflected on the first reading from today (below). Of course, these passages from James got Luther in a tizzy--we know why of course. To those of you who are fond of backing your practices and beliefs up with scripture, I really don't understand how you can explain away this one. Even those that did have come around-see link.
But, in spite of your ignorance, you still think you can castigate the Bible? The height of human ignorance. Remember; Your choice to be ignorant of what the Bible says is on you. Maybe if you let the Holy Spirit lead you instead of judging Scripture by your denominational teachings...

I'm guessing you're trying to say that works are needed for salvation, right? James isn't. He's simply saying that which backs up other Scripture. Human works do NOT get us saved or keep us saved. They are simply a sign that we are saved.

Love is considered a work of salvation. Jesus said: people will know we are His disciples by the way we LOVE one another. So go ahead Chubby Checker; keep twisting those Scriptures...:howdy:

Today at noon Mass the visiting priest's homily reflected on the first reading from today (below). Of course, these passages from James got Luther in a tizzy--we know why of course. To those of you who are fond of backing your practices and beliefs up with scripture, I really don't understand how you can explain away this one. Even those that did have come around-see link.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html)


James 2:14-24, 26

What good is it, my brothers and sisters,
if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear
and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them,
"Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,"
but you do not give them the necessities of the body,
what good is it?
So also faith of itself,
if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say,
"You have faith and I have works."
Demonstrate your faith to me without works,
and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one.
You do well.
Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus,
that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works
when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works,
and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the Scripture was fulfilled that says,
Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him as righteousness,
and he was called the friend of God.
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
For just as a body without a spirit is dead,
so also faith without works is dead.

The works spoken of in the Bible is referring to the actions, reactions and changes of heart and attitude that reflect a spiritual renewing of the mind when a person becomes a born-again Child of God.

Those actions (works) are the result of the regeneration of your spirit whereby you no longer follow the old nature that you once had and are able to exemplify the Fruits of the Spirit more and more each day that you draw closer to God by allowing His Holy Spirit to guide and control your life:

Here is the comparison between the "works" of the flesh and the "works" of the Spirit:




Galatians, Chaper 5, verses:

19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



It is only when one has the Fruit of The Spirit that their resulting actions exemplify the "good works" of being a Child of God who is obedient to God's control in his/her life.

But, in spite of your ignorance, you still think you can castigate the Bible? The height of human ignorance. Remember; Your choice to be ignorant of what the Bible says is on you. Maybe if you let the Holy Spirit lead you instead of judging Scripture by your denominational teachings...

I'm guessing you're trying to say that works are needed for salvation, right? James isn't. He's simply saying that which backs up other Scripture. Human works do NOT get us saved or keep us saved. They are simply a sign that we are saved.

Love is considered a work of salvation. Jesus said: people will know we are His disciples by the way we LOVE one another. So go ahead Chubby Checker; keep twisting those Scriptures...:howdy:

So IS and for that matter SM, is calling someone ignorant and trashing their belief system an outward sign of your Christian love?

So IS and for that matter SM, is calling someone ignorant and trashing their belief system an outward sign of your Christian love?

The definition of "ignorant" basically means someone who is partially or completely uninformed about a specific subject. We are all ignorant of something or another when it comes to all the knowledge of things in the world. For example, i know a bit about working on some things on my car but I am "ignorant" of the knowledge that it takes to dismantle and rebuild the engine to factory specs.

Being called "ignorant" as in a derogatory insult is different and that is not what IS intended. Even in the Holy Bible, Peter and Paul speak of doing things in "ignorance".


Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: (1 Peter 1:13-14)

and;

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 1:12-14)

The definition of "ignorant" basically means someone who is partially or completely uninformed about a specific subject. We are all ignorant of something or another when it comes to all the knowledge of things in the world. For example, i know a bit about working on some things on my car but I am "ignorant" of the knowledge that it takes to dismantle and rebuild the engine to factory specs.

Being called "ignorant" as in a derogatory insult is different and that is not what IS intended. Even in the Holy Bible, Peter and Paul speak of doing things in "ignorance".



You are truly gifted. You have the gift of properly interpreting scripture and the ability to know what was in others hearts. Starman FTW!

So IS and for that matter SM, is calling someone ignorant and trashing their belief system an outward sign of your Christian love?If you don't mind answering my question... :buddies:

Let's start with the example James used: Abraham.

Chronologically speaking, which came first for Abraham, faith credited as righteousness (justification) or works?

Did Yahweh choose Abram or did Abram choose Yahweh?

This goes back to the previous explanation that, yes, the OT Prophets, Patriarchs and New Testament Apostles were pre-ordained and chosen by God to fulfill their roles for His Purpose in bringing the Light of the Gospel to a sinful and dying world through the Atoning Blood of Christ as The Lamb of God.

Thus, my sig:

If you don't mind answering my question... :buddies:

Which?

Which?Preferably the first one, but both if you like.


Chronologically speaking, which came first for Abraham, faith credited as righteousness (justification) or works?

Did Yahweh choose Abram or did Abram choose Yahweh?

You are truly gifted. You have the gift of properly interpreting scripture and the ability to know what was in others hearts. Starman FTW!

ItalianScallion is my friend and brother in Christ. I am sorry that it is you who misinterprets his choice of words when you take them as a personal affront. yet, how many times have you and other RCCers had some "choice words" for both of us?

ItalianScallion is my friend and brother in Christ. I am sorry that it is you who misinterprets his choice of words when you take them as a personal affront. yet, how many times have you and other RCCers had some "choice words" for both of us?

Guys, charity is a Christian virtue. I think we could all use a dose of grace today, especially myself.

Let us never forget Paul's words to his son in the faith Timothy:

This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them. But I received mercy for this reason, so that in me, the worst of them, Christ Jesus might demonstrate His extraordinary patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Guys, charity is a Christian virtue. I think we could all use a dose of grace today, especially myself.

Let us never forget Paul's words to his son in the faith Timothy:

This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them. But I received mercy for this reason, so that in me, the worst of them, Christ Jesus might demonstrate His extraordinary patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Amen! :buddies:

Amen! :buddies:You just said Amen to predestination! I knew I'd convince you!
:evil:










Just kidding.

You just said Amen to predestination! I knew I'd convince you!
:evil:


Just kidding.

:doh: :faint: :killingme

:buddies:

Today at noon Mass the visiting priest's homily reflected on the first reading from today (below). Of course, these passages from James got Luther in a tizzy--we know why of course. To those of you who are fond of backing your practices and beliefs up with scripture, I really don't understand how you can explain away this one. Even those that did have come around-see link.

Wouldn't it be equally true that works without faith is dead? I'm not sure of any Christian in here that has contended that you can't just claim you believe without actually living a life through that belief. And each at their own level.

But this begs the question (which has been addressed a lot)... If someone accepts Christ then dies the next minute, without having done any works under their newly found faith, are they still not saved?

Certainly we are compelled to do what right as Christians, but:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8

This thread is going to de-rail as well and rather quickly only because in Catholic theology justification is not synonymous with salvation whereas it is in Protestant theology. You guys are talking past each other from the get go on this one.

If I remember correctly, I promised Zguy a discussion on justification/salvation umpteen months ago. Look for that... in another umpteen months. :lol:

This thread is going to de-rail as well and rather quickly only because in Catholic theology justification is not synonymous with salvation whereas it is in Protestant theology. You guys are talking past each other from the get go on this one.

If I remember correctly, I promised Zguy a discussion on justification/salvation umpteen months ago. Look for that... in another umpteen months. :lol:
It's cool. I recall saying I'd do a few things for you as well. :buddies:

But back to the topic at hand:

The way I see James, is that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15 (credited as righteousness) and then his faith/justification was "worked out" or revealed in Genesis 22 with Isaac on the altar.

Abram was called, Abram was justified by faith, Abraham was sanctified in obedience.

It's cool. I recall saying I'd do a few things for you as well. :buddies:

But back to the topic at hand:

The way I see James, is that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15 (credited as righteousness) and then his faith/justification was "worked out" or revealed in Genesis 22 with Isaac on the altar.

Abram was called, Abram was justified by faith, Abraham was sanctified in obedience.

I would put it thus: Abram was called, Abraham was justified by grace, Abraham was sanctified by BOTH faith AND works (his obedience). Here again, we have the both/and as opposed to the either/or. As we see in James, they go hand-in-hand -- faith without works is dead.

From my understanding the difference between theologies is synergism and monergism. As I've stated before, Catholics believe in regeneration via cooperation with God's grace (synergism involving our free will); whereas Protestants believe in regeneration without one's cooperation via God's grace (monergism or without our free will), which is the crap covered in snow analogy (although I will always maintain that crap covered in snow is still crap when you step in it and it gets all over your shoe).

There are subtle but important nuances, which is why it makes discussions like this complicated.

I would put it thus: Abram was called, Abraham was justified by grace, Abraham was sanctified by BOTH faith AND works (his obedience). Here again, we have the both/and as opposed to the either/or. As we see in James, they go hand-in-hand -- faith without works is dead.
Except that James says "justified by faith and works" not "sanctified." I don't know if that's a slip or if you are saying something else.

which is the crap covered in snow analogy (although I will always maintain that crap covered in snow is still crap when you step in it and it gets all over your shoe).I find a better analogy to be we are as serfs or peasants in dirty clothes with no power of our own to clean up or be freed from bondage and God is a benevolent sovereign who frees us by the sacrifice of His son and gives us the Son's clean and pure wardrobe. And He allows us to live with Him as adopted children and heirs.

So IS and for that matter SM, is calling someone ignorant and trashing their belief system an outward sign of your Christian love?
Don't even try it dude. Remember calling someone a "DOUCHE" recently? You'll have to live with that for a while so suck it up and discuss like an adult here or stop posting threads that might cause your feelings to get hurt. You start threads that :poke: at people and then whine when someone spanks you with the truth.

Using descriptive names is not something I do to be mean; I do it to be truthful with you. So did you learn anything about James from my response or did you ever really intend to learn the truth about that passage? The only thing I'd add is that your ignorance is not going to get better until you honestly desire to learn the truth...
ItalianScallion is my friend and brother in Christ. I am sorry that it is you who misinterprets his choice of words when you take them as a personal affront. yet, how many times have you and other RCCers had some "choice words" for both of us?
:cheers:

Except that James says "justified by faith and works" not "sanctified." I don't know if that's a slip or if you are saying something else.

And here we get into those subtle nuances of justification and sanctification. The following link may help explain better than I can regarding justification. Justification by Grace (http://www.saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html)

I find a better analogy to be we are as serfs or peasants in dirty clothes with no power of our own to clean up or be freed from bondage and God is a benevolent sovereign who frees us by the sacrifice of His son and gives us the Son's clean and pure wardrobe. And He allows us to live with Him as adopted children and heirs.

Well yeah, except you're still a dirty serf under the clean clothes. Using your analogy, Catholics start out serfs, then become merchants, and then royalty (as in theosis - unity with God).

Don't even try it dude. Remember calling someone a "DOUCHE" recently? You'll have to live with that for a while so suck it up and discuss like an adult here or stop posting threads that might cause your feelings to get hurt. You start threads that :poke: at people and then whine when someone spanks you with the truth.

Using descriptive names is not something I do to be mean; I do it to be truthful with you. So did you learn anything about James from my response or did you ever really intend to learn the truth about that passage? The only thing I'd add is that your ignorance is not going to get better until you honestly desire to learn the truth...

:cheers:

I don't pretend to be something I'm not--you and your holier than thou act is why I called you on it. I have learned nothing from you theologically. Your tactics of brow beating people into submission don't work on me. You are the biggest whiner on this forum. If anything your methods of apologetics send people running the opposite way. Little man without a church. I interpret James the way it was interpreted for 1500 years by the whole church until someone like you couldn't play well with others nailed a piece of paper to a door. Your past is telling as I've said before--MBP--fail--deacon/pastor--fail--now its not yet ready for prime time amateur radio and RR. It's not working out for you is it? The light will be on for you this lent. Take advantage of it. Nothing good comes from my integrations with you. Brings the worst out in me. Therefore, I'm done with you. Peace.

I don't pretend to be something I'm not--you and your holier than thou act is why I called you on it. I have learned nothing from you theologically. Your tactics of brow beating people into submission don't work on me. You are the biggest whiner on this forum. If anything your methods of apologetics send people running the opposite way. Little man without a church. I interpret James the way it was interpreted for 1500 years by the whole church until someone like you couldn't play well with others nailed a piece of paper to a door. Your past is telling as I've said before--MBP--fail--deacon/pastor--fail--now its not yet ready for prime time amateur radio and RR. It's not working out for you is it? The light will be on for you this lent. Take advantage of it. Nothing good comes from my integrations with you. Brings the worst out in me. Therefore, I'm done with you. Peace.
:bawl:

And here we get into those subtle nuances of justification and sanctification. The following link may help explain better than I can regarding justification. Justification by Grace (http://www.saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html)



Well yeah, except you're still a dirty serf under the clean clothes. Using your analogy, Catholics start out serfs, then become merchants, and then royalty (as in theosis - unity with God).I know about theosis. Too bad most Catholics do not, or at least they don't show evidence of it (not that Protestants are any better). Just go to a church league softball game and you will see what I mean.

In Protestantism, Sanctification sits in place of theosis. God's grace, continuously washing us clean and making us holy through Christ's atonement.

Have you ever noticed that in the Pentateuch, the bible says there are three states a person or object can be in?

Holy
Clean
Unclean

Have you ever noticed that nothing could be holy unless made holy by atonement? You could be clean by avoiding certain things that would defile you, but not holy. Holy required atonement by somebody else.

This is where imputation and the atonement has its theological roots.

Psy and Z:

I actually have enjoyed reading through this thread. While I did use it earlier to point out Protestants disagreeing-out of fairness it is only right that I admit knowledge gained from it. While I do disagree with the doctrine of DP, I understand it better through your explanations. It does point out the issues of human interpretation of scripture. It also is refreshing not to hear you all starting off your posts by saying things like "now look here son, your ignorance is showing" or "there is only one truth." I will also say that a certain forumite has been uncharacteristically silent on this topic.

Psy and Z:

I actually have enjoyed reading through this thread. While I did use it earlier to point out Protestants disagreeing-out of fairness it is only right that I admit knowledge gained from it. While I do disagree with the doctrine of DP, I understand it better through your explanations. It does point out the issues of human interpretation of scripture. It also is refreshing not to hear you all starting off your posts by saying things like "now look here son, your ignorance is showing" or "there is only one truth." I will also say that a certain forumite has been uncharacteristically silent on this topic.Thanks! :buddies:

So, what do you think about my interpretation of Abraham being justified in Genesis 15 and Genesis 22 being the evidence of his faith/justification that James is talking about?

Does it make sense at all (even if you may disagree)?

Thanks! :buddies:

So, what do you think about my interpretation of Abraham being justified in Genesis 15 and Genesis 22 being the evidence of his faith/justification that James is talking about?

Does it make sense at all (even if you may disagree)?

Promise a response when I get home.

Psy and Z:

While I did use it earlier to point out Protestants disagreeing-out of fairness it is only right that I admit knowledge gained from it...It also is refreshing not to hear you all starting off your posts by saying things like "now look here son, your ignorance is showing" or "there is only one truth."
Or posts containing the word "DOUCHE"?

Would you like some cheese with your whine? :otter:

You are starved for attention aren't you? So, my noticeably quiet on this subject friend, what is your position?

I know about theosis. Too bad most Catholics do not, or at least they don't show evidence of it (not that Protestants are any better). Just go to a church league softball game and you will see what I mean.

:rolleyes:

Have you ever come across someone you thought or felt was holy? Were they Catholic or Protestant? I have, both Catholic, Protestant and even a Buddhist.

God's grace, continuously washing us clean and making us holy through Christ's atonement.

Have you ever noticed that in the Pentateuch, the bible says there are three states a person or object can be in?

Holy
Clean
Unclean

Have you ever noticed that nothing could be holy unless made holy by atonement? You could be clean by avoiding certain things that would defile you, but not holy. Holy required atonement by somebody else.

This is where imputation and the atonement has its theological roots.

Or infusion as the case may be. It's the difference between an exterior conversion (imputed -- crap is still crap even though covered in snow) or an interior conversion (infusion -- crap ceases to be crap).

As I said, subtle nuances.

:rolleyes:

Have you ever come across someone you thought or felt was holy? Were they Catholic or Protestant? I have, both Catholic, Protestant and even a Buddhist.



Or infusion as the case may be. It's the difference between an exterior conversion (imputed -- crap is still crap even though covered in snow) or an interior conversion (infusion -- crap ceases to be crap).

As I said, subtle nuances.I've never seen crap ceasing to be crap. But that's just me.

You are starved for attention aren't you? So, my noticeably quiet on this subject friend, what is your position?
I already gave my answer in post #4, the middle paragraph...

... It also is refreshing not to hear you all starting off your posts by saying things like "now look here son, your ignorance is showing" or "there is only one truth." .

But it's True! When all is said and done,There Is Only One Truth. :coffee:

I already gave my answer in post #4, the middle paragraph...

I was referring to free will vs predestination.

Psy and Z:

I actually have enjoyed reading through this thread. While I did use it earlier to point out Protestants disagreeing-out of fairness it is only right that I admit knowledge gained from it. While I do disagree with the doctrine of DP, I understand it better through your explanations. It does point out the issues of human interpretation of scripture. It also is refreshing not to hear you all starting off your posts by saying things like "now look here son, your ignorance is showing" or "there is only one truth." I will also say that a certain forumite has been uncharacteristically silent on this topic.

:buddies:

I will also say that a certain forumite has been uncharacteristically silent on this topic.

But it's True! When all is said and done,There Is Only One Truth. :coffee:

One truth is that I believe God would want us to have these discussions respectfully. Will God call us into account for how we treat each other?

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor. - 1 Peter 2:12-17

One truth is that I believe God would want us to have these discussions respectfully. Will God call us into account for how we treat each other?



Agreed, but, God will also call us into account if we tip-toe around Truth and fail to challenge teachings that are in error. Unfortunately, when that happens it is viewed as "not respecting" another person's faith.

OTOH: I would say that "name-calling" and using demeaning words and insults toward those who disagree with you would be a sign of disrespect.
Yes, God will call those into account.

I was referring to free will vs predestination.
That would be :offtopic: Besides, it was being discussed in another thread and I didn't feel that I could add anything that hadn't already been said. It is your thread though so, if you still want my take on them, I will...

But it's True! When all is said and done,There Is Only One Truth. :coffee:This is true indeed.

We may disagree on some of the particulars of the means, but we agree on the end.

This is true indeed.

We may disagree on some of the particulars of the means, but we agree on the end.

Make no mistake, WE do as well.