All Protestants agree that a person must experience Regeneration or be born-again in order to "cross over from death to life" as Jesus put it.

Does regeneration precede faith or does it happen after?

If man is dead in his trespasses and sins and at emnity with God as the bible states, can he even have saving faith to respond to the gospel?

Thoughts?

All Protestants agree that a person must experience Regeneration or be born-again in order to "cross over from death to life" as Jesus put it.

Does regeneration precede faith or does it happen after?

If man is dead in his trespasses and sins and at emnity with God as the bible states, can he even have saving faith to respond to the gospel?

Thoughts?

Mankind has choices in life; placing trust in God's Plan of Salvation through Christ is one of them.

Regeneration happens after one places faith in Christ:

1.) Can't have "regeneration" without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God in one's life. He's the one that is sent to be our Helper, Comforter, Teacher, etc.

2.) Can't receive the indwelling presence of The Holy Spirit of God until one becomes a Child of God.

3.) Can't become a Child of God until one accepts the New Testament Jesus Christ by faith.


Regeneration (renewing of the mind, becoming born-again of the spirit) begins immediately after one turns from the world in repentance and places faith in the New Testament Jesus Christ.

That's when one becomes "a new creation" in Christ.

Mankind has choices in life; placing trust in God's Plan of Salvation through Christ is one of them.

Regeneration happens after one places faith in Christ:

1.) Can't have "regeneration" without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God in one's life. He's the one that is sent to be our Helper, Comforter, Teacher, etc.

2.) Can't receive the indwelling presence of The Holy Spirit of God until one becomes a Child of God.

3.) Can't become a Child of God until one accepts the New Testament Jesus Christ by faith.


Regeneration (renewing of the mind, becoming born-again of the spirit) begins immediately after one turns from the world in repentance and places faith in the New Testament Jesus Christ.

That's when one becomes "a new creation" in Christ.Do you believe that man always has that faith necessary to repent and believe the gospel?

Do you believe that man always has that faith necessary to repent and believe the gospel?

Individuals have the ability to place faith in God but when he/she is faced with having to give up their faith in and enjoyment of worldly pleasures, money, toys, things that are opposite of righteous living, etc. then it becomes a struggle to leave those things behind for most people.

Jesus calls people to overcome the world and what it offers but the Bible proclaims that men are lovers of pleasures more than they love God.

In order to have faith one has to be willing to place faith that God has a greater reward than what can ever be experienced in what this world offers.

Most people don't want to give that up. As the Bible states, many are called but few are chosen. I believe that those who are chosen out of this world are the individuals who chose to go with what God offers over what this world offers.

In order to have faith one has to be willing to place faith that God has a greater reward than what can ever be experienced in what this world offers.
I think I know what you are trying to say, but this didn't really make sense to me.

In order to have faith one has to be willing to place it? How can you place or exercise something you don't have?

Can you see where that is begging the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html)?

I think I know what you are trying to say, but this didn't really make sense to me.

In order to have faith one has to be willing to place it? How can you place or exercise something you don't have?

Can you see where that is begging the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html)?

In order to have faith in something, you must place faith in that "something".

For example: A skydiver has faith that after free-falling several thousand feet from an airplane that his/her parachute will open when the ripcord is pulled and that the parachute will fully deploy open (no streamers) and he/she will land safely on the ground below. (hopefully on target)

The skydiver had faith that the jump from the plane would not end in disaster because of their placed faith in the reliability of the parachute.

Now, when it comes to placing faith in the reliability of the New Testament Jesus Christ for the Salvation of one's soul, people are affected in various ways. For example:

1. People hear the Gospel Message: God's Plan of Salvation through the New Testament Jesus Christ.

2. People contemplate what they are hearing about needing to repent
and turn away from false teachings and/or the worldly pleasures they are "enjoying" and, instead, turn to the New Testament Jesus Christ for Salvation.

3. People are affected by what they have heard and what they must do.
(God's Holy Spirit exposes deception and reproves the world of sinful nature that separates people from God)

4. People's inner conscious is pierced on whether to have faith that Jesus can be relied upon for Salvation. Will they place faith in Him? This affects people in different ways:

5. People may sense a brokeness in their spirit and respond then and there by believing what they heard about needing to change their wayward ways and then place faith in Christ as Saviour; or, they decide to delay having to make a decision; or, they remain unsure whether a God even exists; or, they reject the Gospel Message of Jesus altogether. Decisions, decisions...

Here are a few examples of how people respond:

(a) The individual's conscious is "seared". He/she senses the guilt of sin, but doesn't want to think about changing just yet, thus, delays making a decision;

(b) The individual remains undecided about believing in God and the Gospel Message of Christ (Agnostics) still a delay;

(c) The individual is skeptical about the existence of any deity and in particular the Gospel Message of Christ because they were taught to believe that there is no God (Atheists) yet, still may wonder now and then;

(d) The individual, through early indoctrination, believes in another religious teaching and does not accept the Gospel Message of The New Testament Jesus Christ. They place more faith in their religion by believing one must follow prescribed tenets that help earn and merit salvation by their works.
(Caught up in false religions and pseudo-Christian cults) ;

This list of reasons how people respond can go on but the Bible really sums it up when Jesus told the Parable of the Sower and the seeds:
(Cut and Paste; it's easier this way and direct words from the Holy Bible)



Matthew 13
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



Source: BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. (http://biblegateway.com)

(The parable cited is also found in Mark, Chapter 4 and Luke, Chapter 8)

Still seems to beg the question, since you are assuming that a person can even have faith in your premises. But anyway...

So you believe Reason has a lot to do with it?

And that God's only participation at this point is just sending a gospel proclaimer?

Still seems to beg the question, since you are assuming that a person can even have faith in your premises. But anyway...

So you believe Reason has a lot to do with it?

And that God's only participation at this point is just sending a gospel proclaimer?

God is always present through the Gospel proclaimer who is led by God's Holy Spirit. Reason then comes about through "conviction of guilt/sin" :

Important to note: Not all "preachers" are sent of God, however, all preachers of God are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who brings a "spiritual conviction" to the hearer through the power of the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ. Those who hear are either brought into humble spiritual surrender to God, knowing that they need Christ as Saviour, or, they feel the urging but delay their decision, or, they outright choose to not believe that Jesus is the Way, The Truth and The Life and that no one can come unto God except through Him. (John 14:6)

Anyway, back to the Gospel Proclaimers that are sent:



For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:13-15)



That is the reason for The Great Commission. :buddies:

God is always present through the Gospel proclaimer who is led by God's Holy Spirit. Reason then comes about through "conviction of guilt/sin" :

Important to note: Not all "preachers" are sent of God, however, all preachers of God are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who brings a "spiritual conviction" to the hearer through the power of the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ. Those who hear are either brought into humble spiritual surrender to God, knowing that they need Christ as Saviour, or, they feel the urging but delay their decision, or, they outright choose to not believe that Jesus is the Way, The Truth and The Life and that no one can come unto God except through Him. (John 14:6)

Anyway, back to the Gospel Proclaimers that are sent:



That is the reason for The Great Commission. :buddies:So, the Holy Spirit sends the gospel proclaimer, and convicts the hearer?

How is that different than God ordaining that that will happen and enabling the hearer to have "ears to hear"?

I think where we have a real difference is that you do not believe man is depraved or totally lost in his fallen state. Man has the power to exercise saving faith without Godly intervention (this is your view).

Is that accurate?

So, the Holy Spirit sends the gospel proclaimer, and convicts the hearer?

How is that different than God ordaining that that will happen and enabling the hearer to have "ears to hear"?

I think where we have a real difference is that you do not believe man is depraved or totally lost in his fallen state. Man has the power to exercise saving faith without Godly intervention (this is your view).

Is that accurate?

Not what I said Zguy28. My post clearly states that God's intervention is by the Holy Spirit's conviction within an individual.

Yes, man is depraved and in a fallen state, spiritually separated from God; i.e. dead in their sins as the Bible proclaims.

Upon hearing the Gospel proclaimed, the Holy Spirit reproves mankind of sin, as the Bible proclaims.

Upon being reproved of sin, man comes under conviction and chooses to repent and turn to the light of Christ or reject the Gospel Message because they loved darkness rather than light, as the Bible proclaims.

Not what I said Zguy28. My post clearly states that God's intervention is by the Holy Spirit's conviction within an individual.Sorry, not trying to misrepresent.

Yes, man is depraved and in a fallen state, spiritually separated from God; i.e. dead in their sins as the Bible proclaims.

Upon hearing the Gospel proclaimed, the Holy Spirit reproves mankind of sin, as the Bible proclaims.

Upon being reproved of sin, man comes under conviction and chooses to repent and turn to the light of Christ or reject the Gospel Message because they loved darkness rather than light, as the Bible proclaims.I'm not denying that the bible says those things.

So, at this point, if the person chooses Christ, then regeneration (New birth) happens?


Here is what I am trying to get at: How do dead men have faith? How do dead men choose to be made alive?

Do you see where I'm getting this question?:buddies:

Perhaps this article (it's not long) explains a little bit of what we are wrestling with. I will note that it does support regeneration coming before faith.

Regeneration Precedes Faith (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html)

There is also this passage that seems to support being "born of God" prior to believing in Christ.

John 5:1-5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

...Here is what I am trying to get at: How do dead men have faith?

In the Biblical terms, "dead" means spiritually dead and separated from God through the fall of Adam. We all start out that way. Of course, the individual human is still alive - breathing and able to reason and discern situations for making decisions, in particular, choosing right from wrong.

A spiritually dead individual sees nothing wrong in living a decadent lifestyle and mingling with the pleasures of this world that are contrary to the life that Christ would call us to live.

Most (if not all) born-again individuals can attest to the type of lifestyle he/she led before coming to the knowledge of needing to place faith in Christ. Their testimony will share how their life was changed by Christ and how they were able to turn away from the things that separated them from having a personal relationship and spiritual fellowship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Many times the change is noticeable by others when the born-again believer's change of heart and new frame of mind begin to conflict with the crowd that they once hung around with. Thus, regeneration has begun in the life of a believer after the step of faith was made to surrender their life to the Lordship of the New Testament Jesus Christ.

IOW:

1.) Regeneration is a spiritual awakening that turns a sinner's life around from being dead in trespasses to a new creation in Christ and becomes alive in The Spirit;

2.) Can't have spiritual regeneration until the Holy Spirit comes into the life of the new believer. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit of God that brings about the regenerative changes needed to live a life for Christ, we cannot live for Christ under our own strength;


3.) Can't have the indwelling Holy Spirit of God in your life unless you are a Child of God.

4.) Can't become a Child of God until you place faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

5.) Faith comes first:

(Galatians 3:22-27)


But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


How do dead men choose to be made alive?


By assessing their life and choosing to repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour when they become consciously aware of the conviction by the Holy Spirit reproving them of sin. That is when God can begin a new work in them.

OTOH: When an individual knowingly and willfully rejects the Gospel Message of the New Testament Jesus Christ, then that person remains dead in their trespasses and remains guilty before God. God quits calling them and turns them over to Satan's control. Thus, their rejection of God's Offer to have saved them from death will be brought into account at the Great White Throne Judgment. This is where the "second death" is imposed upon them.

Hi there Wayne aka Zguy28.

Just wanted to comment about RC Sproul's article that you cited about Regeneration "preceding faith." I have previously listened to Sproul on Christian radio and, while much of his messages are inspiring, I have also heard him make some comments that may be off-track theologically. Sure, he is a great noted speaker and heads up a large ministry but, like Calvin, Sproul is a fallible man and still interjects some teachings that may not really be considered sound Biblical doctrine. That's all it takes. As the Holy Bible states, " a little leaven..." Well you get the point. Yes, I bring into question Sproul's conceptual teachings about "regeneration preceding faith."

The Bible proclaims that a sinner must place faith in Christ first (for all have sinned) and that's when he/she receives the indwelling Holy Spirit who will begin the regenerative process and seals one's Salvation unto the day of Redemption.

Apparently, RC Sproul teaches that there is infant and adult "regeneration" prior to faith. Please see the following commentary on his teaching and let me know if the article is factual on Sproul's view about regeneration prior to faith. Please know in advance that the author does not hold the Calvinistic view and challenges Sproul's:




How could R. C. Sproul be "setting the standard for teaching biblical truth" and be so far off base on the theology of regeneration in the case of both infants and adults, is indeed paradoxical if not phantasmagorical. (That last word simply means "imagery," like what one envisages in his mind under the influence of hallucinatory drugs).

To my knowledge, Sproul never preaches the Gospel to lost sinners, probably never engages in personal evangelism to the unsaved, but he does "make disciples" nevertheless, and "win souls" by baptizing the babies. In this for of pedo-regenerationist "evangelism," as long as he has reproductive parents in his church, he is insured of having "regenerated" babies to add to the church as legitimate members. He can therefore dispense with "public invitations" and other forms of soliciting lost sinners to repent of sins and confess Christ as Saviour.

Calvinist Flyswatter: Al Mohler and R.C. Sproul (http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/04/al-mohler-and-rc-sproul.html)


thoughts?

but, like Calvin, Sproul is a fallible man and still interjects some teachings that may not really be considered sound Biblical doctrine.

So, you're saying he's Catholic? :killingme

So, you're saying he's Catholic? :killingme

:killingme That's a good one, onel.

Actually, what is being pointed out is that there are other (in fact many) religious denominations that build their theology around the explanations of another fallible person who interjects extra-Biblical and/or misinterpreted teachings that are not in context with Scripture.

People are like sheep; Most don't read their Bible and they end up believing the "reformed" explanation of another person ("theologian") and end up getting off-track from sound Biblical doctrine. People then end up placing faith and trust in a man's guidance rather than placing faith and trust in Christ alone and being led by the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. But, that's what has been foretold of what would happen. The Holy Bible proclaims that in the end times people will not want to endure sound doctrine but will choose teachers who "preach" what they want to hear. That's what is happening today.

The simplicity of the Gospel Message is really not complicated and is based on the foundational steps of a sinner's repentance, surrendering to God and placing faith exclusively in the New Testament Jesus Christ for Salvation. From that point on the Holy Spirit of God enables the believer to become a new creation through being "born-again" as Jesus said one must be.

Hi there Wayne aka Zguy28.

Just wanted to comment about RC Sproul's article that you cited about Regeneration "preceding faith." I have previously listened to Sproul on Christian radio and, while much of his messages are inspiring, I have also heard him make some comments that may be off-track theologically. Sure, he is a great noted speaker and heads up a large ministry but, like Calvin, Sproul is a fallible man and still interjects some teachings that may not really be considered sound Biblical doctrine. That's all it takes. As the Holy Bible states, " a little leaven..." Well you get the point. Yes, I bring into question Sproul's conceptual teachings about "regeneration preceding faith."

The Bible proclaims that a sinner must place faith in Christ first (for all have sinned) and that's when he/she receives the indwelling Holy Spirit who will begin the regenerative process and seals one's Salvation unto the day of Redemption.

Apparently, RC Sproul teaches that there is infant and adult "regeneration" prior to faith. Please see the following commentary on his teaching and let me know if the article is factual on Sproul's view about regeneration prior to faith. Please know in advance that the author does not hold the Calvinistic view and challenges Sproul's:




thoughts?MY first thoughts are that while I agree with R.C. on many things, paedo-baptism isn't one of them. I'm a baptist after all, and he's a presbyterian. But it should be noted that infant baptism in the presbyterian church is totally different than infant baptism in the RCC. To my knowledge, Presbyterians do not believe in baptismal regeneration like the RCC. To them it is an initiation into the covenant people of God, a replacement for circumcision actually. But that is not the topic for this thread.

:killingme That's a good one, onel.

Actually, what is being pointed out is that there are other (in fact many) religious denominations that build their theology around the explanations of another fallible person who interjects extra-Biblical and/or misinterpreted teachings that are not in context with Scripture.

People are like sheep; Most don't read their Bible and they end up believing the "reformed" explanation of another person ("theologian") and end up getting off-track from sound Biblical doctrine. People then end up placing faith and trust in a man's guidance rather than placing faith and trust in Christ alone and being led by the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. But, that's what has been foretold of what would happen. The Holy Bible proclaims that in the end times people will not want to endure sound doctrine but will choose teachers who "preach" what they want to hear. That's what is happening today.

The simplicity of the Gospel Message is really not complicated and is based on the foundational steps of a sinner's repentance, surrendering to God and placing faith exclusively in the New Testament Jesus Christ for Salvation. From that point on the Holy Spirit of God enables the believer to become a new creation through being "born-again" as Jesus said one must be.

In your mind, is being born again a process then? Or is it a one-shot deal like when you are born as a baby?

It seems to me that according to Jesus it's a one shot deal. You "cross over from death to life". What we see after a conversion is the evidence of being reborn.

Also, you rightly confirm that repentance is a necessity of salvation. Yet we both believe is Sola Fide. Do you believe repentance is of the sinner or bestowed through God's grace?

In your mind, is being born again a process then? Or is it a one-shot deal like when you are born as a baby? It seems to me that according to Jesus it's a one shot deal. You "cross over from death to life". What we see after a conversion is the evidence of being reborn.

Yes, the Holy Bible states that born again is being born of the Spirit. There is a newness in the life of the one who places faith in Christ. It's the one-shot conversion that delivers you from the clutches of Satan and eternal death to the forgiveness of God unto eternal life through faith in The New Testament Jesus. The spiritual growth process begins at conversion - from the moment that the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell your life. Therein is the beginning of a daily walk with The Lord which the new believer is to be guided by in order to strengthen one's personal walk with Christ. The Holy Bible calls for believers to walk by the power of God's Holy Spirit for the source of our spiritual strength.


Also, you rightly confirm that repentance is a necessity of salvation. Yet we both believe is Sola Fide. Do you believe repentance is of the sinner or bestowed through God's grace?

Repentance is a sinner - making the decision to follow Jesus and turning away (repenting) from the worldy life that is at enmity with God. God's Grace is then bestowed upon the sinner who has a broken spirit and a contrite/repentant heart and wishes to surrender his/her life to God's Guidance through faith in Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. That's the Promise that God offers to a dying and sinful world - the chance for each individual to repent, receive Forgiveness and have Eternal Life through placing faith in The New Testament Jesus.

IMO: If God caused a person to "repent" that would not be "true repentance". I believe God wants an individual to choose to love Him and seek Him not because they have to or were made to but because they knowingly chose to give up anything this world offers for what God offers.

When you chose the gal you wanted to be your wife, did she love you because you forced her to (or had her pre-programmed) or did she have a say in it and choose to be your wife because she loved and wanted to be with you?

Yes, the Holy Bible states that born again is being born of the Spirit. There is a newness in the life of the one who places faith in Christ. It's the one-shot conversion that delivers you from the clutches of Satan and eternal death to the forgiveness of God unto eternal life through faith in The New Testament Jesus. The spiritual growth process begins at conversion - from the moment that the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell your life. Therein is the beginning of a daily walk with The Lord which the new believer is to be guided by in order to strengthen one's personal walk with Christ. The Holy Bible calls for believers to walk by the power of God's Holy Spirit for the source of our spiritual strength.I think we are kind of talking past each other on this one, different means, same end. Have you ever heard of prevenient grace? That's what you believe.



Repentance is a sinner - making the decision to follow Jesus and turning away (repenting) from the worldy life that is at enmity with God. I believe this as well.

Repentance is the action of the sinner always, but dead-men can't repent anymore than they can raise themselves from the dead.

God's Grace is then bestowed upon the sinner who has a broken spirit and a contrite/repentant heart and wishes to surrender his/her life to God's Guidance through faith in Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. That's the Promise that God offers to a dying and sinful world - the chance for each individual to repent, receive Forgiveness and have Eternal Life through placing faith in The New Testament Jesus.

IMO: If God caused a person to "repent" that would not be "true repentance". I believe God wants an individual to choose to love Him and seek Him not because they have to or were made to but because they knowingly chose to give up anything this world offers for what God offers.

When you chose the gal you wanted to be your wife, did she love you because you forced her to (or had her pre-programmed) or did she have a say in it and choose to be your wife because she loved and wanted to be with you?
I understand. Fallible human reasoning constantly pushes this to the forefront as the way things are. But the Holy Bible clearly says that God grants repentance in His sovereignty.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

He doesn't force it, He enables it. He nudges, and prods, and pokes, and convicts, but it all is according to His purpose.

If I work in your life to eventually convince you to love a woman and you marry her and love her truly, does my matchmaking effort lessen your love, or did I merely enable it for my our collective good pleasure?

...different means, same end.


:howdy:
Doesn't that really sum it up Zguy28? We each agree that our Eternal Salvation came about through repentance and placing faith in the New Testament Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of our sins? We each believe in the Biblical Promise of God that we are His Children, born again through faith in Christ. Let that bond of Truth be our strength to continue partaking of The Great Commission.



If I work in your life to eventually convince you to love a woman and you marry her and love her truly, does my matchmaking effort lessen your love, or did I merely enable it for my our collective good pleasure?

This goes back to the Biblical premise that God first loved us (the world) and while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.


For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(Romans 5:7-9)


Calvinism submits that God really didn't love the whole world (mankind) and that Christ only died for some sinners - not all.

BTW: If there is anyone who can lay the claim to being "chosen" and "predestined to receive God's Salvation" it would be the Jewish people who, during the time of Moses, believed that God would always favor them over the Gentiles. Thankfully, God had Mercy on whom He had Mercy and that's what allowed Gentiles to partake of His Salvation when the Jewish people would have had it be another way.

Just a thought.

:howdy:
Doesn't that really sum it up Zguy28? We each agree that our Eternal Salvation came about through repentance and placing faith in the New Testament Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of our sins? We each believe in the Biblical Promise of God that we are His Children, born again through faith in Christ. Let that bond of Truth be our strength to continue partaking of The Great Commission.




This goes back to the Biblical premise that God first loved us (the world) and while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.Yes!

I just read a great quote on this from a professor:

"Gentleman, this is a study on spiritual warfare not a debate on theology. I don't care if you were drafted or volunteered. We're in the same fox hole."



Calvinism submits that God really didn't love the whole world (mankind) and that Christ only died for some sinners - not all.Have you ever done a word study on John 3:16? Especially the word kosmos? It does not necessitate a meaning of every individual person who ever lived. Otherwise how would God be just in allowing people to perish who never heard of Jesus or lived before he came?

Just a thought there.

BTW: If there is anyone who can lay the claim to being "chosen" and "predestined to receive God's Salvation" it would be the Jewish people who, during the time of Moses, believed that God would always favor them over the Gentiles. They were chosen as a nation by God unconditionally, despite claims to the contrary on here about God foreseeing Jacob's decisions.

Thankfully, God had Mercy on whom He had Mercy and that's what allowed Gentiles to partake of His Salvation when the Jewish people would have had it be another way.Indeed. I am thankful.

...Have you ever done a word study on John 3:16? Especially the word kosmos? It does not necessitate a meaning of every individual person who ever lived. Otherwise how would God be just in allowing people to perish who never heard of Jesus or lived before he came?

Just a thought there.



Is Jesus not God? If so, He certainly can make Himself known without us:



The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3)
The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. (Psalm 97:6)



Herein is God's Will:


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

All Protestants agree that a person must experience Regeneration or be born-again in order to "cross over from death to life" as Jesus put it.

Does regeneration precede faith or does it happen after?

If man is dead in his trespasses and sins and at emnity with God as the bible states, can he even have saving faith to respond to the gospel?

Thoughts?

Why do they (Christians) for the most part, require you be buried??

Do they think their miracles will only bring back the dead mush that is in the coffin, but won't bring back the dead from ashes?

Why do they (Christians) for the most part, require you be buried??

Do they think their miracles will only bring back the dead mush that is in the coffin, but won't bring back the dead from ashes?A little off topic...but I don't know of any Christians since the Middle Ages who require burial as opposed to cremation.

Is Jesus not God? If so, He certainly can make Himself known without us:
Certainly He can, and He has. That's called General Revelation. Unfortunately Romans 1 explains how man responds to GR.

So, God chooses to share His Special Revelation (Christ, Scriptures, works of the apostles) of grace through the gospel preaching of His church.


Romans 10:9-14
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Why does it seem you and others get hung up on God's free-will choice and vigorously defend human free-will?

Btw, I've said before that I DO believe in human free-will, just that man is unable to come to the light on his own decision because he is so broken.


Herein is God's Will:I agree that it is God's will, just that applying to all individuals in history is BAD exegesis of the text. :howdy:

...I agree that it is God's will, just that applying to all individuals in history is BAD exegesis of the text. :howdy:

C'mon Wayne - it has been previously pointed out that God foreknew from the beginning of Creation which people would respond to His message and which ones would not. This does not negate the fact that God gave them a chance to repent and believe in Him as He does the entire world. That is why at the Great White Throne Judgment they will have no excuse when they stand before Him to give account and God casts them into eternal death (The second death mentioned in Revelation 20:13-15)

Calvinism seems to avoid bringing Satan into the picture as the real culprit who causes people to be deceived and choose to live in darkness rather than repent of their evil deeds whereby they reject Jesus as being the Son of God and Saviour of mankind.

Instead, Calvinism says it's all God's fault that He decided which people not to be saved. THAT is bad exegesis of God's Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Christ. :nono:

:buddies:

God foreknows the choice. Some choose to respond; Some refuse to respond:



This is what the Sovereign LORD says! Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels. (Ezekiel 3:27) New Living Translation

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says.’ Whoever will listen let them listen, and whoever will refuse let them refuse; for they are a rebellious people. (Ezekiel 3:27) NIV

Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house. (Ezekiel 3:27) KJV

'The Lord God says this.' Those who will listen, let them listen. Those who refuse, let them refuse, because they are a people who turn against me. (Ezekiel 3:27) New Century Version

I found this an interesting graphic.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/Challies_VisualTheology/OrdoSalutis_Large.jpg

I found this an interesting graphic.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/Challies_VisualTheology/OrdoSalutis_Large.jpg

Hmmm...One of the top lines of that graphic reads, "Hint: Begin at the bottom"

So, I did. Started at the bottom of the page and I read:
"Recommended Resources, Faith Alone by R.C. Sproul..." teaches Calvinism


'nuff said.

:buddies:

A little off topic...but I don't know n. of any Christians since the Middle Ages who require burial as opposed to cremation.

Through history Christianity caused issues because of the belief that bodies had to be buried, leading to the HUGE caverns of bones in france, the church would not allow cremation.

At the time they couldn't keep up with the dead, and of course there was no room in the citu for individual graves, bodies were left in church courtyards to rot.

Hmmm...One of the top lines of that graphic reads, "Hint: Begin at the bottom"

So, I did. Started at the bottom of the page and I read:
"Recommended Resources, Faith Alone by R.C. Sproul..." teaches Calvinism


'nuff said.

:buddies:
You act like I was hiding it?

I thought it was appropo to the topic. :buddies:

You act like I was hiding it?

I thought it was appropo to the topic. :buddies:

:howdy:
LOL - Sorry if it came across that way Wayne. That's really not how I intended it to read.

It's just that it became obvious that the originator of that graphic is a Calvinist who recommends R.C. Sproul's literature, among others, who hold the same view of predestination of souls. That's what I was pointing out and, of course, the reason for the info on his chart.

:buddies: