4 and Wildewood Pkwy

1028; Chief 1A advising the availability of the helo
1028; Fireboard advising call by call
1028; 32 YOM rear ended a vehicle, broken right leg, deep laceration to the chin
1028; Rear ended approx 25-30 mph
1029; Patient is conscious and alert
1030; Chief 1A advising no need for the squad, Engine 92 advising to keep Squad 7 en route
1031; 92 returning the squad
1037; Rt 4 in the area is shut down completely
1045; 798 handling the transport to SMH, command terminated, units in service when ready.

:cds:

This happened about four vehicles behind me as I was going to the convenience center. Who rear-ended whom. Couldn't tell looking in the rear view mirror.

Motorcycle Accident in St. Mary’s County | Southern Maryland News Net (http://smnewsnet.com/archives/12816)

This happened about four vehicles behind me as I was going to the convenience center. Who rear-ended whom. Couldn't tell looking in the rear view mirror.

Motorcyclist rear ended the SUV

Got to pay attention ...

Motorcyclist rear ended the SUV

In front of me there was a vehicle making a left hand turn. Uncharacteristic of So. MD drivers, all behind him had stopped instead of passing on the right (against the law). That is probably what caught the motorcyclist off guard.

You got to look where you're going

Motorcycle Accident in St. Mary’s County | Southern Maryland News Net (http://smnewsnet.com/archives/12816)

Good lord!


How many 'First Responders' does it take to screw in a light bulb???

You got to look where you're going

He did. Right at the back of the SUV. Panic. Scope lock; BAM

Good lord!


How many 'First Responders' does it take to screw in a light bulb???

All of them.

4 and Wildewood Pkwy

1028; Chief 1A advising the availability of the helo
1028; Fireboard advising call by call
1028; 32 YOM rear ended a vehicle, broken right leg, deep laceration to the chin
1028; Rear ended approx 25-30 mph
1029; Patient is conscious and alert
1030; Chief 1A advising no need for the squad, Engine 92 advising to keep Squad 7 en route
1031; 92 returning the squad
1037; Rt 4 in the area is shut down completely
1045; 798 handling the transport to SMH, command terminated, units in service when ready.


Not it!!

Did he sacfricie his body to save his bike??

Looks like there is NO damage to the bike at all.. and for somebody rearending an SUV the front end is in REAL good shape..

Or did he do the CHiPS slide for life??

Good lord!


How many 'First Responders' does it take to screw in a light bulb???

No wonder you're confused.


They aren't screwing in light bulbs.

Did he sacfricie his body to save his bike??

Looks like there is NO damage to the bike at all.. and for somebody rearending an SUV the front end is in REAL good shape..

Or did he do the CHiPS slide for life??

He was on a Yamaha. It was down in the northbound lane with pieces about. The Harley may have been a riding companion.

Did he sacfricie his body to save his bike??

Looks like there is NO damage to the bike at all.. and for somebody rearending an SUV the front end is in REAL good shape..

Or did he do the CHiPS slide for life??

That's what I was thinking, but the back of the SUV has a pretty good ding in it. I don't think the tire made contact, but all the M/C lights aren't quite where they belong.

He was on a Yamaha. It was down in the northbound lane with pieces about. The Harley may have been a riding companion.

I thought the Green Bike in the picture was a Yamaharley..

No wonder you're confused.


They aren't screwing in light bulbs.

Oh, an expert. Well, good. So, what are 25-30 people doing on scene?

:popcorn:

Did he sacfricie his body to save his bike??

Looks like there is NO damage to the bike at all.. and for somebody rearending an SUV the front end is in REAL good shape..

Or did he do the CHiPS slide for life??

Looks to me, you can see damage on the right side front of the tank, that our boy broke his right leg when it and, I guess, his shoulder and so forth, hit the SUV. Looks like he almost got by it without impact. I'd guess he locked it up and the ass end slid around, L to R, so, rider took a lot of the blow.

I think he was REAL close to that no happening.

SUX!!!!

I thought the Green Bike in the picture was a Yamaharley..

Looks like it says "Virago-Harley" on the tank.

Oh, an expert. Well, good. So, what are 25-30 people doing on scene?

:popcorn:

They came on different pieces of apparatus? Initial dispatch was an engine, a squad, two BLS ambulances and a medic unit. There was an assistant chief from Leonardtown VFD on scene, an assistant chief and deputy chief from Bay District marked up to go POV, the chief of Hollywood VRS marked up to go POV, add in the engine who came with at least four, a squad who came with at least four (though they were returned, so none of those people are in the pictures), two ambulances with at least two (though it looks like Hollywood had three) and a medic unit with at least two additional people and I'd say you wind up with a fair amount of people on scene.

With that said, it looks like the EMT's from Hollywood and the medic(s) are working on the patient, the firefighters probably secured the bike and checked for other hazards (though it's hard to tell from those pictures..)

They came on different pieces of apparatus? Initial dispatch was an engine, a squad, two BLS ambulances and a medic unit. There was an assistant chief from Leonardtown VFD on scene, an assistant chief and deputy chief from Bay District marked up to go POV, the chief of Hollywood VRS marked up to go POV, add in the engine who came with at least four, a squad who came with at least four (though they were returned, so none of those people are in the pictures), two ambulances with at least two (though it looks like Hollywood had three) and a medic unit with at least two additional people and I'd say you wind up with a fair amount of people on scene.

With that said, it looks like the EMT's from Hollywood and the medic(s) are working on the patient, the firefighters probably secured the bike and checked for other hazards (though it's hard to tell from those pictures..)

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

Overkill or not, it's dispatched as an accident with injuries. The typical assignment (for that area) is the engine from 9, the squad from 7, and the ambulances from 38 & 79. If it involves a motorcycle or pedestrian (or rollover), add a medic unit. If there's reports of entrapment, add an additional squad (which would either come from 3 or 1). All of the units marked up fairly close together and from there, it's a crap shoot on who arrives first. The first arriving unit does have the authority to return what's not needed.

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

All but the medic and cop are volunteers. What does it hurt? It's not like we're paying them a ton of money.

What are you bytching about?

If I hit a car with my bike I'd be real happy there were alot of people coming to take care of me....

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

If I hit a car with my bike I'd be real happy there were alot of people coming to take care of me....

:yeahthat:

Better too many than too few responders. Hope you never have to lie there in the road and hope they respond, Larry.

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

The more calls they go on, the more funding they get. :biggrin:

Looks like it says "Virago-Harley" on the tank.

Yep, Yamaha Virago.

The more calls they go on, the more funding they get. :biggrin:

Once they get there, get the bike and truck off the road, get the guy checked and in the ambulance and get off the road. I like the good response ,but it does seem like they hang around a bit longer than necessary.

So, here we are in America today; a simple question as to perhaps, just maybe, an example of over doing it a touch and I get my ass jumped. "Why, you'd be glad if a shock trauma unit or three showed up at your crash!". "Be thankful its not YOU!"

Ok, ok. That is an appropriate response to a single bike down. Jesus H, people.

Overkill or not, it's dispatched as an accident with injuries. The typical assignment (for that area) is the engine from 9, the squad from 7, and the ambulances from 38 & 79. If it involves a motorcycle or pedestrian (or rollover), add a medic unit. If there's reports of entrapment, add an additional squad (which would either come from 3 or 1). All of the units marked up fairly close together and from there, it's a crap shoot on who arrives first. The first arriving unit does have the authority to return what's not needed.

I would think that when the call first comes in, those that would respond are not yet exactly sure of what they are going to find.
Now, if it were me, I would much rather have too many around at that moment than to find out the 2 or 3 that showed up didnt have the qualifications or experience to deal with whatever stupid thing I did to myself.

So, here we are in America today; a simple question as to perhaps, just maybe, an example of over doing it a touch and I get my ass jumped. "Why, you'd be glad if a shock trauma unit or three showed up at your crash!". "Be thankful its not YOU!"

Ok, ok. That is an appropriate response to a single bike down. Jesus H, people.

Larry, haven't you learned rule #1 on these forums? Do not question the modus operandi of this county's emergency service and it's personnel! They know what they are doing from the moment they are born, and since it is a volunteer organization, they ARE professionals and they DO take the place of Jesus. If you speak bad of them, you WILL be accused of profiling and you could possibly be banned from ever speaking freely on these forums again. :coffee:

Larry, haven't you learned rule #1 on these forums? Do not question the modus operandi of this county's emergency service and it's personnel! They know what they are doing from the moment they are born, and since it is a volunteer organization, they ARE professionals and they DO take the place of Jesus. If you speak bad of them, you WILL be accused of profiling and you could possibly be banned from ever speaking freely on these forums again. :coffee:

Holy ####, quit #####ing...
Being all Volunteer, just be thankful they were able to get that many folks on scene. Like someone else said, if I was seriously hurt I would like as many people as possible helping as well. They didn't take hours finding someone available because no one wanted to go.

And here it is, as predicted. :lol:

I would think that when the call first comes in, those that would respond are not yet exactly sure of what they are going to find.
Now, if it were me, I would much rather have too many around at that moment than to find out the 2 or 3 that showed up didnt have the qualifications or experience to deal with whatever stupid thing I did to myself.

:yeahthat:

:dingding:

About that....now, it's possible, I suppose, that the call hit everybody the same time, and response times worked out so that nobody got there first, so everybody got there at about the same time. But it's also possible, isnt it, that the first folks there could have said....."we got one person down, no fire, no massive calamity, we need one ambulance, one ALS unit, and a fire truck just in case the bike goes high order on us. "

Now, maybe it makes a difference accounting wise if you do a full response, as opposed to cancelling halfway there, and if it does, I get that these organizations scramble to keep the funding coming in, for what is of course a very good cause. But if it doesn't, and it's a just a way to break up the day, by going on scene, that's not the right way to go. And it doesnt do the cause of fundraising any good when folks see a whole lot of folks standing around, I dont think.

I heard a call go out on Calvert this morning for seizures at a church. Response was "no medic available"; shortly after was "full arrest". No medic available.
Pretty freakin scarey if you ask me.

I heard a call go out on Calvert this morning for seizures at a church. Response was "no medic available"; shortly after was "full arrest". No medic available.
Pretty freakin scarey if you ask me.

Exactly! Calvert may be getting to the point, population-wise, anyway, that we need to consider the possibility of having paid staff to supplement the volunteers.

I heard a call go out on Calvert this morning for seizures at a church. Response was "no medic available"; shortly after was "full arrest". No medic available.
Pretty freakin scarey if you ask me.

Paid or volunteer wouldn't have made a difference... Only so many you can staff, and until they can say no to the "hitchhikers" we'll never be able to staff up.

In front of me there was a vehicle making a left hand turn. Uncharacteristic of So. MD drivers, all behind him had stopped instead of passing on the right (against the law). That is probably what caught the motorcyclist off guard.

Prob'ly.....

So, here we are in America today; a simple question as to perhaps, just maybe, an example of over doing it a touch and I get my ass jumped. "Why, you'd be glad if a shock trauma unit or three showed up at your crash!". "Be thankful its not YOU!"

Ok, ok. That is an appropriate response to a single bike down. Jesus H, people.

Gawd, you're being quite the drama queen. You make an ignorant statement, then try to make it all about the state of the nation.

I see about 15 responders in that scene. Makes sense to me. I don't know where you get 30.

When the call is dispatched, they have no idea exactly what they're facing. There was a recent incident with a car on top of a bicyclist. If they had responded with just the 3 or 4 people that a bike crash would trigger, they would have been waiting another 10 minutes after arriving for the equipment and manpower to get the car off of the person. That can mean life and death.

Sometimes the response seems like overkill, but it's better to respond with too much equipment than not enough. It takes time for volunteers to get away from work, get to the station, then get through traffic to the scene. Better to start them early than to wait until it's too late.

Also realize that the FD vehicles are being used to block traffic in order to make the scene safe. They can't just leave the vehicle there while the responders walk back to the station.

All but the medic and cop are volunteers. What does it hurt? It's not like we're paying them a ton of money.

What are you bytching about?

FYI, the medics that were staffing the ALS unit on this call are volunteers. We have some paid Medic staff, to help fill shifts. The St. Mary's ALS unit is primarily volunteer medics.

Gawd, you're being quite the drama queen. You make an ignorant statement, then try to make it all about the state of the nation.

I see about 15 responders in that scene. Makes sense to me. I don't know where you get 30. With your counting mad skills, is it safe to assume you are a dispatcher? :lol: :evil: I got 20 just in the pictures.

When the call is dispatched, they have no idea exactly what they're facing. There was a recent incident with a car on top of a bicyclist. If they had responded with just the 3 or 4 people that a bike crash would trigger, they would have been waiting another 10 minutes after arriving for the equipment and manpower to get the car off of the person. That can mean life and death.

Sometimes the response seems like overkill, but it's better to respond with too much equipment than not enough. It takes time for volunteers to get away from work, get to the station, then get through traffic to the scene. Better to start them early than to wait until it's too late.

Also realize that the FD vehicles are being used to block traffic in order to make the scene safe. They can't just leave the vehicle there while the responders walk back to the station.

You know, you, and everyone else, can take offense all you like. That's how we got to where we are; you can't even question ANYONE on ANYTHING anymore without some one(s) getting bent out of shape.

:buddies:

You know, you, and everyone else, can take offense all you like. That's how we got to where we are; you can't even question ANYONE on ANYTHING anymore without some one(s) getting bent out of shape.

:buddies:

(*fake-->):flowers:

(*fake-->):flowers:

Ow! I cut myself on your petroleum filled hate buds!

Medic!!! Medic!!!! :jameo:

You know, you, and everyone else, can take offense all you like. That's how we got to where we are; you can't even question ANYONE on ANYTHING anymore without some one(s) getting bent out of shape.

:buddies:

Did you count the cops, bystanders, witnesses, and the other driver in the 20?

You're right, I can't question your whining without you getting bent out of shape. What has this world become? In the good old days, people would just bask in the wisdom of Larry without questioning his superior intellect. But now the world has declined so far that when Larry sees 20 people in a picture then bytches about 30 people being there somebody actually dared to disagree with him. Such heresy!!!

Did you count the cops, bystanders, witnesses, and the other driver in the 20?

You're right, I can't question your whining without you getting bent out of shape. What has this world become? In the good old days, people would just bask in the wisdom of Larry without questioning his superior intellect. But now the world has declined so far that when Larry sees 20 people in a picture then bytches about 30 people being there somebody actually dared to disagree with him. Such heresy!!!

I'm willing to let it slide. This time. Now, go about your business and just see to it that it doesn't happen again.

:drama:

Ow! I cut myself on your petroleum filled hate buds!

Medic!!! Medic!!!! :jameo:

Sorry, no medics available. We're all waiting to be told what equipment to respond with, and how much...

:whistle:

Sorry, no medics available. We're all waiting to be told what equipment to respond with, and how much...

:whistle:

:lol:

I shoulda expected that one, huh?

:buddies:

The more calls they go on, the more funding they get. :biggrin:

I'd like to see a link for this statement. :popcorn:

I was with the rescue squad for 18 years. Never did we get funding for how many calls we went on. Hell, we didn't even get a percentage of the fire tax, that goes to the fire departments. It was up to us to make the $$ to purchase our own equipment.

Learn something new everyday.

Is it fair to say that that is, clearly, over kill for an MVA, bike down? I mean, what, 30 some odd people, at least an hour each out and back?

so basically you are stating on any accident..............

motorcycle (could be just a bike down, right?)
car (could be just a fender bender, right?)
bus accident (might not have kids on it, right?)

How many people should be disbatched to find out how many additional personnel will be required? 1? 2? You do realize that adding additonal people will now delay care for another what, 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes depending on location? And you are perfectly willing to wait?

Hope you never find yourself laying in the road waiting for "additional personnel" to come save your ass.

If it's me or my family, I hope they send them all! I'd rather have too many than too few to help.

so basically you are stating on any accident..............

motorcycle (could be just a bike down, right?)
car (could be just a fender bender, right?)
bus accident (might not have kids on it, right?)

How many people should be disbatched to find out how many additional personnel will be required? 1? 2? You do realize that adding additonal people will now delay care for another what, 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes depending on location? And you are perfectly willing to wait?

Hope you never find yourself laying in the road waiting for "additional personnel" to come save your ass.

If it's me or my family, I hope they send them all! I'd rather have too many than too few to help.

And you don't see the glaring inconsistency in what you are saying?

And you don't see the glaring inconsistency in what you are saying?

What we have got heah is failure to cummuncate.

She's saying that if you don't send enough, then have to send more, it delays care.

What we have got heah is failure to cummuncate.

She's saying that if you don't send enough, then have to send more, it delays care.

Yeah, and while everyone is at wreck A, what of wreck B and C?

I fail to see why it is uncomfortable to say, yeah, 30 people at a down bike might not necessarily be the best practice. I mean, all I am getting is that that was the LEAST that should have happened.

:shrug:

Yeah, and while everyone is at wreck A, what of wreck B and C?

I fail to see why it is uncomfortable to say, yeah, 30 people at a down bike might not necessarily be the best practice. I mean, all I am getting is that that was the LEAST that should have happened.

:shrug:

Easy. They go to wreck A. Wreck B is called. If they have extra people at wreck A they leave and go to wreck B. If not, they have to get someone else to cover wreck B. It's not like the people who don't go to wreck A are sitting in the station waiting for the next call. This aint the big city, dee by gaw cap'n. It would probably be quicker to respond from wreck A than for them to go to the station then respond.

30 people bike would seem like overkill if it were that easy, but it's not. They had a motorcycle vs. car collision. The average person calling 911 pretty much sucks at giving useful information. They don't know until they get there how many injuries, is anyone trapped, is something going to burn, did the guy get thrown into the woods or down a hill, do they need to prepare an LZ, and many more things.

I have no idea if this is the case here, but there could also have been trainees there. You can sit in a classroom all day, but the only way to become proficient is to go along and work with the more experienced people.

I would like to see just how many people were on this call, but I doubt it was 30. As I said, I counted 15, but I did not count people who were not wearing fire or EMS gear. It looked like there were witnesses and bystanders in the pictures, which gives the impression there were more responders there than there really were.

Yeah, and while everyone is at wreck A, what of wreck B and C?

I fail to see why it is uncomfortable to say, yeah, 30 people at a down bike might not necessarily be the best practice. I mean, all I am getting is that that was the LEAST that should have happened.

:shrug:

Who says they'll be committed on wreck A? Our dispatch assignments really aren't bad, nor are they designed to pull an extraordinary amount of apparatus out. In some areas (not real far from here either), they send two engine companies, a squad, a BLS and ALS ambulance, plus an ALS chase vehicle and chief officers to an accident. And those are PAID departments..

You're still stuck in the old days when five people showed up at an accident. I see a lot of EMS people in those pictures, who are providing care for the injured. I see four or five firefighters who came on one piece of apparatus. What happens if they single pull (one BLS ambo with a driver and EMT, one firetruck with three people on it), and they get there and wind up with a trauma code patient? Ok, dispatch a medic unit. But wait, two of those four people need to do CPR and bag the patient. So, that'll probably be two of the firefighters. Half your manpower is gone there. Then, you'll have to lift the patient on the backboard. Ok, well, you have one firefighter and a driver of the ambulance left since the EMT is doing work on the patient. Gonna be hard to lift the patient since AHA guidelines say compressions have to be continued irregardless of what's going on. So, you've got a firefighter pushing down on a patient while you have two people (one of whom might not be physically fit) try to lift a backboard while putting them on the stretcher.

Don't be afraid to think outside the box. :coffee:

I would like to see just how many people were on this call, but I doubt it was 30. As I said, I counted 15, but I did not count people who were not wearing fire or EMS gear. It looked like there were witnesses and bystanders in the pictures, which gives the impression there were more responders there than there really were.

There's 20 people IN the one pic either geared up or obviously wearing their affiliation sweatshirts. That means, what, at least four more, two up and two down stream directing traffic. Some folks in vehicles checking gear, comms, what have you. With your math skills, you should work for OMB.

And it's just as likely that everyone being on St. Andrews Church Rd. is further away from the next problem than it is closer.


God bless you all for the work you do. However, let's not polish this into a training exercise so that newbie's can learn how to not get in the way on scene. Why is it a big deal to say 'yeah, this isn't best practice..."?

:burning:Who says they'll be committed on wreck A? Our dispatch assignments really aren't bad, nor are they designed to pull an extraordinary amount of apparatus out. In some areas (not real far from here either), they send two engine companies, a squad, a BLS and ALS ambulance, plus an ALS chase vehicle and chief officers to an accident. And those are PAID departments..

You're still stuck in the old days when five people showed up at an accident. I see a lot of EMS people in those pictures, who are providing care for the injured. I see four or five firefighters who came on one piece of apparatus. What happens if they single pull (one BLS ambo with a driver and EMT, one firetruck with three people on it), and they get there and wind up with a trauma code patient? Ok, dispatch a medic unit. But wait, two of those four people need to do CPR and bag the patient. So, that'll probably be two of the firefighters. Half your manpower is gone there. Then, you'll have to lift the patient on the backboard. Ok, well, you have one firefighter and a driver of the ambulance left since the EMT is doing work on the patient. Gonna be hard to lift the patient since AHA guidelines say compressions have to be continued irregardless of what's going on. So, you've got a firefighter pushing down on a patient while you have two people (one of whom might not be physically fit) try to lift a backboard while putting them on the stretcher.

Don't be afraid to think outside the box. :coffee:

Why is it a big deal to say 'yeah, this isn't best practice..."?

Because I don't see anything wrong with this practice. It is always better to have too many responders than too few. I don't see the response in this case as excessive.

Why is it such a big deal that I don't agree with you? You threw out your opinion, others disagree, yet you keep on saying we're wrong because we don't agree.

:lol:

I shoulda expected that one, huh?

:buddies:

Kinda, but you were distracted by the math, no worries!

:buddies:

Because I don't see anything wrong with this practice. It is always better to have too many responders than too few. I don't see the response in this case as excessive.

.

This isn't black and white; either too many OR too few. Better to have the right number than too few and better to have the right number than too many. There is such a thing as too many, yes? Can we just agree on that? Too few people can always do more, especially a good crew, people used to working together. Too many, people get in one anothers way.

I guess it's the difference between private and public sector. Too many is not a virtue in small business. Neither is too few but, come on, that is a FAR cry from too few. There is over 20 people in the one shot, most just watching and that is what caught my eye.

:burning:

:lmao:

Yeah, and while everyone is at wreck A, what of wreck B and C?

I fail to see why it is uncomfortable to say, yeah, 30 people at a down bike might not necessarily be the best practice. I mean, all I am getting is that that was the LEAST that should have happened.

:shrug:

And thereby comes the "no medics available", if they are on the way or not reporting available. Bound to happen though.

This isn't black and white; either too many OR too few. Better to have the right number than too few and better to have the right number than too many. There is such a thing as too many, yes? Can we just agree on that? Too few people can always do more, especially a good crew, people used to working together. Too many, people get in one anothers way.

I guess it's the difference between private and public sector. Too many is not a virtue in small business. Neither is too few but, come on, that is a FAR cry from too few. There is over 20 people in the one shot, most just watching and that is what caught my eye.

Yeah, but if one fire fighter is busy, none of them can leave. I saw where one guy was cleaning up. The rest just idle I imagine.

For all those people who are saying they would rather have too many:

I hit a deer on my dirt bike and had to be chopper lifted out. It was like a field day for the paramedics. One person involved, no cars, one person injured. We had about 20+ people on the scene (private road, too). Now, I'm good with it being a slow day and all, and they wanted to come to a crash. Seriously, I'm good with that and I 100% understand it. But, all of the extra people made for chaos. I was conscious until I arrived at the hospital and I was observing what was going on. I was kicked, stepped on, bumped into, etc. many times. All by accident, but all becuase there was simply waaaaaay too many people there.

That being said, after going through this, I am extremely grateful of the people who cared for me. There definitely was an element of reassurance that there would be SOMEONE there who knew what to do. If it happened again, I would want the same people there taking care of me. They did great!

There's 20 people IN the one pic either geared up or obviously wearing their affiliation sweatshirts. That means, what, at least four more, two up and two down stream directing traffic. Some folks in vehicles checking gear, comms, what have you. With your math skills, you should work for OMB.



In one pic I see 8 EMS and 4 FD, one guy in a t-shirt (witness or the guy he hit?), one onlooker, and two people who may possibly be volunteers standing by. Every one of the EMS are working. One FD is cleaning up while three are waiting to help if needed.

In the other pic that has a lot of people there are 8 EMS, 4 FD, one cop, t-shirt guy, two sweatshirt guys, and two onlookers. Two of the FD are putting away the fire hose, one is cleaning up, and one is in command. The EMS are all involved.

Anyone who has ever driven past a crash in SMC knows that nobody is ever directing traffic. There are two people using radios in the pic, so there would be no reason to have anyone else doing comms. There's no evidence that there are more than 12 responders on scene plus maybe two or three off duty "helpers."

So tell me, Larry, how many people should they send to a motorcycle vs. SUV crash on a road with a 50 MPH speed limit?

For all those people who are saying they would rather have too many:

I hit a deer on my dirt bike and had to be chopper lifted out. It was like a field day for the paramedics. One person involved, no cars, one person injured. We had about 20+ people on the scene (private road, too). Now, I'm good with it being a slow day and all, and they wanted to come to a crash. Seriously, I'm good with that and I 100% understand it. But, all of the extra people made for chaos. I was conscious until I arrived at the hospital and I was observing what was going on. I was kicked, stepped on, bumped into, etc. many times. All by accident, but all becuase there was simply waaaaaay too many people there.

That being said, after going through this, I am extremely grateful of the people who cared for me. There definitely was an element of reassurance that there would be SOMEONE there who knew what to do. If it happened again, I would want the same people there taking care of me. They did great! That's a command issue, not a too many people issue. The person with command on scene should have assigned the personnel to avoid exactly what you describe.

This isn't black and white; either too many OR too few. Better to have the right number than too few and better to have the right number than too many. There is such a thing as too many, yes? Can we just agree on that? Too few people can always do more, especially a good crew, people used to working together. Too many, people get in one anothers way.

I guess it's the difference between private and public sector. Too many is not a virtue in small business. Neither is too few but, come on, that is a FAR cry from too few. There is over 20 people in the one shot, most just watching and that is what caught my eye.

Larry, I was with you at first. It does seem like a lot of people, even if we use the lower number that other people counted. And I agree that there is often un-necessary outrage on this forum if you ask questions about fire/EMS/cops. And that's just for the honest questions, not even actual criticism.

On the other hand, you've been presented with a number of reasonable scenarios that explain the large response, yet you are choosing to go down in flames rather than bail out. Almost any activity is more complicated than it looks. Why do you bother hiring employees? All you're doing is just putting seeds in dirt and watering them, right? You should be able to handle that yourself. Hell, you've even got the fancy machine that does the potting for you. Sounds like you've hired too many people. :duel:

Larry, I was with you at first. It does seem like a lot of people, even if we use the lower number that other people counted. And I agree that there is often un-necessary outrage on this forum if you ask questions about fire/EMS/cops. And that's just for the honest questions, not even actual criticism.

On the other hand, you've been presented with a number of reasonable scenarios that explain the large response, yet you are choosing to go down in flames rather than bail out. Almost any activity is more complicated than it looks. Why do you bother hiring employees? All you're doing is just putting seeds in dirt and watering them, right? You should be able to handle that yourself. Hell, you've even got the fancy machine that does the potting for you. Sounds like you've hired too many people. :duel:

First off, it's soil. Not dirt. Second, it's interesting you would make your first comment, about how you can't say a word about EMS and how silly that is and then you step right in their with them and, lastly, there's been no 'reasonable' scenario; only 'reasons' why 20-30 people is appropriate to this incident. Are you seriously suggesting EMS and small business are analogous? Seriously?

Fine. It HAS to be the proper number because they wouldn't all be there if it were not the correct number.

:yay:

So tell me, Larry, how many people should they send to a motorcycle vs. SUV crash on a road with a 50 MPH speed limit?

The correct number, is, obviously, however many were there. If it's too many, not that that is possible, or they are getting in one anothers way which, again, can't happen, it's all a 'command' issue.

So, A, the correct answer is 'however many are there'.

:buddies:

And you don't see the glaring inconsistency in what you are saying?

No glaring inconsistencies.

We'll disbatch 1 or 2 to your accident and you can wait 20 minutes IF they require additional personnel

Disbatch 30 to me or my family as the inital disbatch. I'll say thank you and return them to service if they aren't required.

No glaring inconsistencies.

We'll disbatch 1 or 2 to your accident and you can wait 20 minutes IF they require additional personnel

Disbatch 30 to me or my family as the inital disbatch. I'll say thank you and return them to service if they aren't required.

:yay:
... and just to think... they give their spare time up for this.


well how many firefighters should we send to his burning house?

No glaring inconsistencies.

We'll disbatch 1 or 2 to your accident and you can wait 20 minutes IF they require additional personnel

Disbatch 30 to me or my family as the inital disbatch. I'll say thank you and return them to service if they aren't required.

I'll spell it out; if 30 are at your motorcycle accident, it's going to be tough to get many to your family.


I find it illustrative that this has struck such a raw nerve.

Fine. It HAS to be the proper number because they wouldn't all be there if it were not the correct number.

:yay:

Finally.
Does that mean this tread is over now?

First off, it's soil. Not dirt. Second, it's interesting you would make your first comment, about how you can't say a word about EMS and how silly that is and then you step right in their with them and, lastly, there's been no 'reasonable' scenario; only 'reasons' why 20-30 people is appropriate to this incident. Are you seriously suggesting EMS and small business are analogous? Seriously?

Fine. It HAS to be the proper number because they wouldn't all be there if it were not the correct number.

:yay:

I didn't "step right in" with anybody. I think that it's a good thing to question public servants, and even criticize if necessary. I did not bash you for asking the initial question - I agreed with you that it seemed like a large response. But I do think that you are lumping the "OMG!!!! EMS hater!!" knee-jerk responses in with those who provided you with (IMO, reasonable) examples of why there might be so many people/equipment showing up for a MC accident. Some people seemed to think you're just bashing EMS; others just tried to give you some first-hand info.

As for EMS vs. small business, I was just making the point that sometimes there are things going on behind the scenes that a casual observer won't be aware of. I'm quite certain your business involves more than soil & water, but I wouldn't know what they are unless you told me. (No, that was not a request :biggrin:)

I didn't "step right in" with anybody. I think that it's a good thing to question public servants, and even criticize if necessary. I did not bash you for asking the initial question - I agreed with you that it seemed like a large response. But I do think that you are lumping the "OMG!!!! EMS hater!!" knee-jerk responses in with those who provided you with (IMO, reasonable) examples of why there might be so many people/equipment showing up for a MC accident. Some people seemed to think you're just bashing EMS; others just tried to give you some first-hand info.

As for EMS vs. small business, I was just making the point that sometimes there are things going on behind the scenes that a casual observer won't be aware of. I'm quite certain your business involves more than soil & water, but I wouldn't know what they are unless you told me. (No, that was not a request :biggrin:)


Wait. So, is it possible to have too many EMS people on a scene? Is that what we're saying? :jerry:

The ONLY reason this got started was because my initial reaction at seeing over 20 some odd people IN ONE picture was 'Wow. That makes no sense to me." and all I got was everything BUT interest that maybe, just maybe, some improvements are needed. I got reasons WHY there were so many. I got reasons that the number was just right. I got reasons it may well have not been enough. I got real world reasons that too many is bed (victim getting stepped on) is a command, not numbers, problem.

I got nothing discussing a more efficient use and allocation of resources.

You mention my business and this is why I reacted the way I did; every single day we look at how many people we have, what do we need, how to balance needs, the unpredictable nature of the thing, equipment, rent, buy, part time, full time, no one knows more than a small business person how challenging this is.

A leader in our industry promoted some time back the concept of fact based conversations so as to avoid the kind of useless, pithy comments that sometimes get in the way of things working better.

If, in fact, 20-30 people is proper allocation and use of resources, so be it. To me, it struck me as absurd.

And, once again, thank you to everyone who does EMS work. Desire for efficiency and good allocation of resources is not opposition to you. It is, frankly, support for you.

:buddies:

Guess not.

I'll spell it out; if 30 are at your motorcycle accident, it's going to be tough to get many to your family.


I find it illustrative that this has struck such a raw nerve.

I don't think that at all. This area has a wonderful EMS system. Have you ever once heard of an emergency in this tri-county area where there wasn't enough man power? We aren't talking World Trade Center Disaster, they didn't even have enough man power for that. We are talking typical house fire, building fire, accident incident. If we don't have enough man power in the tri-county area, they'll call out the next county. Many times our county volunteers fill in for other paid counties. :razz:

You are a real pain in the azz, you know that? Like a dingle berry I can't scrape off. Chaps my azz.

No glaring inconsistencies.

We'll disbatch 1 or 2 to your accident and you can wait 20 minutes IF they require additional personnel

Disbatch 30 to me or my family as the inital disbatch. I'll say thank you and return them to service if they aren't required.

I'll spell it out; if 30 are at your motorcycle accident, it's going to be tough to get many to your family.


I find it illustrative that this has struck such a raw nerve.

I don't think that at all. This area has a wonderful EMS system. Have you ever once heard of an emergency in this tri-county area where there wasn't enough man power? We aren't talking World Trade Center Disaster, they didn't even have enough man power for that. We are talking typical house fire, building fire, accident incident. If we don't have enough man power in the tri-county area, they'll call out the next county. Many times our county volunteers fill in for other paid counties. :razz:

You are a real pain in the azz, you know that? Like a dingle berry I can't scrape off. Chaps my azz.

You'll excuse me if I can't tell what you think?

You'll excuse me if I can't tell what you think?

Let me sum it up for you. Keep your ass up the road and you don't need to worry about how many people show up in St. Mary's County for 1 motorcycle accident.

How's that?

Let me sum it up for you. Keep your ass up the road and you don't need to worry about how many people show up in St. Mary's County for 1 motorcycle accident.

How's that?

:lol:

Wait. So, is it possible to have too many EMS people on a scene? Is that what we're saying? :jerry:

The ONLY reason this got started was because my initial reaction at seeing over 20 some odd people IN ONE picture was 'Wow. That makes no sense to me." and all I got was everything BUT interest that maybe, just maybe, some improvements are needed. I got reasons WHY there were so many. I got reasons that the number was just right. I got reasons it may well have not been enough. I got real world reasons that too many is bed (victim getting stepped on) is a command, not numbers, problem.

I got nothing discussing a more efficient use and allocation of resources.

You mention my business and this is why I reacted the way I did; every single day we look at how many people we have, what do we need, how to balance needs, the unpredictable nature of the thing, equipment, rent, buy, part time, full time, no one knows more than a small business person how challenging this is.

A leader in our industry promoted some time back the concept of fact based conversations so as to avoid the kind of useless, pithy comments that sometimes get in the way of things working better.

If, in fact, 20-30 people is proper allocation and use of resources, so be it. To me, it struck me as absurd.

And, once again, thank you to everyone who does EMS work. Desire for efficiency and good allocation of resources is not opposition to you. It is, frankly, support for you. :buddies:

Of course it's possible to have too many.

And thank you for the bolded point; I never understand those who think that if you care about something, you must never criticize it. If I didn't give a crap about it, I wouldn't waste my breath suggesting improvements.

Let me sum it up for you. Keep your ass up the road and you don't need to worry about how many people show up in St. Mary's County for 1 motorcycle accident.

How's that?

There you go, Larry, problem solved! :killingme

There you go, Larry, problem solved! :killingme

I called Fredneck EMS to report a man down, chewed up ass, bruised and hurt feeling (I only have one), and you know what they told me?


"Deal with it, pal. We've got an emergency in Southern Maryland and have to back them up. Seems a moped fell over or something..."

:evil:

And thank you for the bolded point; I never understand those who think that if you care about something, you must never criticize it. If I didn't give a crap about it, I wouldn't waste my breath suggesting improvements.



:buddies:

I called Fredneck EMS to report a man down, chewed up ass, bruised and hurt feeling (I only have one), and you know what they told me?


"Deal with it, pal. We've got an emergency in Southern Maryland and have to back them up. Seems a moped fell over or something..."

:evil:

Whatever you do, don't ever give up. Stick by your guns, no matter how irrational it may seem.

What's next, futile campaigns for public office?

Whatever you do, don't ever give up. Stick by your guns, no matter how irrational it may seem.

What's next, futile campaigns for public office?

Frederick just called me back. Seems your sense of humor got left in one of their units at the bike wreck.

:buddies:

I called Fredneck EMS to report a man down, chewed up ass, bruised and hurt feeling (I only have one), and you know what they told me?


"Deal with it, pal. We've got an emergency in Southern Maryland and have to back them up. Seems a moped fell over or something..."

:evil:

:yahoo: this means you won't be traveling south for the Tiki bar opening. We can devote all of our EMS system to the moped. Prayers for the driver. Hope they didn't get any boo-boos.

:yahoo: this means you won't be traveling south for the Tiki bar opening. We can devote all of our EMS system to the moped. Prayers for the driver. Hope they didn't get any boo-boos.

Made you laugh. Admit it!