article:



Question: "What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God?"

Answer: The word gift is an important one in the Bible, and it is good that we understand its definition and implications.

In the New Testament, there are several Greek words translated “gift.” Some of these words are used in contexts other than God’s gift of salvation, such as the reciprocal gift-giving of celebrants (Revelation 11:10), the things received from fathers (Matthew 7:11), offerings to a ministry (Philippians 4:17), and the gifts of the magi (Matthew 2:11).

However, when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift. Here are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God. It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10). It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15. It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15. This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17. In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s pronouncement of our guilt, we have this use of dorean: “Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” The gift of salvation is free, and the motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver.

2) Charisma, meaning “a gift of grace.” This word is used to define salvation in Romans 5:15-16. Also, in Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT [charisma] of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” This same word is used in conjunction with the gifts of the Spirit received after salvation (Romans 12:6; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Peter 4:10).

Obviously, if something is a “gift of grace,” it cannot be earned. To work for something is to deserve it, and that would produce an obligation—a gift of debt, as it were. That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).

When presenting salvation, the New Testament writers carefully chose words that emphasize grace and freedom. As a result, the Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith
(John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).

Bible Questions Answered (http://www.gotquestions.org)

Salvation: A Gift To You by The Grace of God

article:

Obviously, if something is a “gift of grace,” it cannot be earned. To work for something is to deserve it, and that would produce an obligation—a gift of debt, as it were. That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).


This is a vivid example that according to the Bible then every person everywhere does get saved as in a universal salvation.

If that salvation required belief or faith or acceptance or anything then that requirement would be a type of "work" or of earning the salvation which then it would not be a "free gift" as it is.

Every person throughout humanity does indeed get saved in the end and not even one sinful sheep is to be left out.

It is just that simple - that Jesus paid the penalty in full for everyone.

:getdown:

This is a vivid example that according to the Bible then every person everywhere does get saved as in a universal salvation.

If that salvation required belief or faith or acceptance or anything then that requirement would be a type of "work" or of earning the salvation which then it would not be a "free gift" as it is.

Every person throughout humanity does indeed get saved in the end and not even one sinful sheep is to be left out.

It is just that simple - that Jesus paid the penalty in full for everyone.

:getdown:

The Gift is delivered to your door step. Need to open up the door and accept it - otherwise the Gift remains unclaimed by you.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Revelation 3:20)


He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: (John 1:11-12)

This is a vivid example that according to the Bible then every person everywhere does get saved as in a universal salvation.

If that salvation required belief or faith or acceptance or anything then that requirement would be a type of "work" or of earning the salvation which then it would not be a "free gift" as it is.

Every person throughout humanity does indeed get saved in the end and not even one sinful sheep is to be left out.

It is just that simple - that Jesus paid the penalty in full for everyone.

:getdown:

If you are trying to say that a mental acknowledgement is work, or "a work", then it is blatantly obvious you have never done a seconds work in your life.:killingme

Just sayin'......

The Gift is delivered to your door step. Need to open up the door and accept it - otherwise the Gift remains unclaimed by you.


You do this often of trying to play on both sides and it is just nonsense from you.

First you rightly declare the salvation to be a completely free gift - which it is, but then you try to attach strings to it as if it is not a free gift.

The Bible does not contradict itself as it is just you contradicting your self.

And your pretense of a gift being left at the door step is utter baseless nonsense as your parable is not in accord with the Bible.

If it has to be picked up or opened or claimed then it is not a free gift because those are strings attached, so your strings are inappropriate and wrong. See posting #1 for the correct message.

You do this often of trying to play on both sides and it is just nonsense from you.

First you rightly declare the salvation to be a completely free gift - which it is, but then you try to attach strings to it as if it is not a free gift.

The Bible does not contradict itself as it is just you contradicting your self.

And your pretense of a gift being left at the door step is utter baseless nonsense as your parable is not in accord with the Bible.

If it has to be picked up or opened or claimed then it is not a free gift because those are strings attached, so your strings are inappropriate and wrong. See posting #1 for the correct message.

You do realize that a Gift that's offered Free can still be refused / rejected or left unclaimed by the recipient. Right?

You do realize that a Gift that's offered Free can still be refused / rejected or left unclaimed by the recipient. Right?


The real God does not beg and plead with anyone, as when God says "Come out of her my people (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:3-5&version=KJV)" then everyone will come out.

The real God does not make request as He makes commands.

No one can truly say "no" to God when it is God's will otherwise.

It is a hugely pretentious and pompous idea that many people have that we can deny and refuse God and get away with it - but we can not.

See posting #1 - "... when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift."

:whistle:

The real God does not beg and plead with anyone, as when God says "Come out of her my people (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:3-5&version=KJV)" then everyone will come out.

The real God does not make request as He makes commands.

No one can truly say "no" to God when it is God's will otherwise.

It is a hugely pretentious and pompous idea that many people have that we can deny and refuse God and get away with it - but we can not.

See posting #1 - "... when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift."

:whistle:

Any Free Gift still isn't yours until you reach for it and accept it.

Then, it is only fitting to Thank the ONE who gave you that gift and tell others that they can get that Free Gift too!


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Any Free Gift still isn't yours until you reach for it and accept it.

Then, it is only fitting to Thank the ONE who gave you that gift and tell others that they can get that Free Gift too!


You just keep saying the same thing in slightly different terms as if some how you can play both ends which you can not.

What you are really saying is that the "free gift" is given to your self so long as you do the specific steps (the activity / the work) and that the "free gift" is not given to me because I do not do as your self does.

So it is a "free gift" to those that do right and not a "free gift" to those who do not do so right - as in accepting it.

All you are doing is claiming one thing (free gift) then denying the exact same thing (putting on conditions).

The "free gift" of salvation is not some package we get in the mail where we have to pick it up and one does not have to reach for it and it is utterly invisible so there is nothing to accept, and we do not have to give any "thanks" as giving thanks is in fact a type of spiritual work.

The "free gift" of salvation goes along with the unconditional-love (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_love_does_the_Bible_mention), in that it means no conditions and no strings attached.

:dingding:

The "free gift" of salvation is not some package we get in the mail where we have to pick it upThat's good because I received a pair of Christmas socks from a certain family member once. I promptly exchanged them. I would hate to think that those socks are still out there stalking me despite my rejecting them because they were U-G-L-Y. Faith should not follow the path of unattractive clothing.

That's good because I received a pair of Christmas socks from a certain family member once. I promptly exchanged them. I would hate to think that those socks are still out there stalking me despite my rejecting them because they were U-G-L-Y. Faith should not follow the path of unattractive clothing.

I saw VoteJP on one of his political-campaign walks.

He was wearing those socks!

You do realize that a Gift that's offered Free can still be refused / rejected or left unclaimed by the recipient. Right?


The "free gift" of salvation is like our Government giving people amnesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amnesty), so then if the people do come in to accept that amnesty then they do get a better deal, but those that do not come in to accept their own amnesty still have it anyway because it is given by the governing authority as a "free gift" whether they accept it or not.

So too when any person turns to faith and belief and to works of righteousness then their "free gift" of salvation becomes far better than for those that reject it, but rejecting this "free gift" being as like rejecting amnesty will mean nothing as the person can not truly reject what the higher authority has given.

By giving amnesty (which means or includes forgiveness) then the police or Courts can not arrest or prosecute the person regardless of whether the person rejects it or not, because the higher authority declares it and neither the law enforcement nor the people have any such authority or power otherwise.

So when God gives that "free gift" of salvation which means a blanket forgiveness of sins, then there is no law enforcement otherwise, because God has given the "free gift" of forgiveness (amnesty) which means salvation for every person with no one left out - as in unconditional love (http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=728).

We are better off to accept it and to grow in it - yes indeed, but that is not required.

Those that reject the truth and fail to follow the way, then they miss out on the better blessings given as a part of that "free gift" given to all.

So yes you are correct that human people can refuse or reject or deny or whatever, but the authority of God can not be undermined by the decisions or claims of the people.

God has given forgiveness and amnesty and salvation, and as such no one can prevent it or refuse it or interfere with the authority of God.

God also knows in advance who will accept the gift and who will reject it. The ones who accept it are among the chosen, adopted into the ultimate Royal Family.

The gift of salvation is indeed acceptable for anyone, but only a few will accept it.

Note that the caveat to the universality of the gift is this: Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me." Salvation isn't for everybody, just as being J.P. Cusick isn't for everybody.

Note also that accepting the Gift entails accepting that Christ died for one's sins. The miraculous transformation that follows is that the Holy Spirit fills the person's heart; right and wrong are known very well as expressed by the Holy Spirit, and the guidance of the Spirit leads the person to almost instinctively choose to do right. Thus works are the result of salvation, but salvation is never the result of works.

Just my tuppence.

God also knows in advance who will accept the gift and who will reject it. The ones who accept it are among the chosen, adopted into the ultimate Royal Family.

The gift of salvation is indeed acceptable for anyone, but only a few will accept it.

Note that the caveat to the universality of the gift is this: Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me." Salvation isn't for everybody, just as being J.P. Cusick isn't for everybody.

Note also that accepting the Gift entails accepting that Christ died for one's sins. The miraculous transformation that follows is that the Holy Spirit fills the person's heart; right and wrong are known very well as expressed by the Holy Spirit, and the guidance of the Spirit leads the person to almost instinctively choose to do right. Thus works are the result of salvation, but salvation is never the result of works.

Just my tuppence.

That'll work. Not because you said it (glad you did) RR, but because the Bible preaches just that.

Way too many just like VoteJP think that just because they are, they will be.

God also knows in advance who will accept the gift and who will reject it. The ones who accept it are among the chosen, adopted into the ultimate Royal Family.

The gift of salvation is indeed acceptable for anyone, but only a few will accept it.

Note that the caveat to the universality of the gift is this: Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me." Salvation isn't for everybody, just as being J.P. Cusick isn't for everybody.

Note also that accepting the Gift entails accepting that Christ died for one's sins. The miraculous transformation that follows is that the Holy Spirit fills the person's heart; right and wrong are known very well as expressed by the Holy Spirit, and the guidance of the Spirit leads the person to almost instinctively choose to do right. Thus works are the result of salvation, but salvation is never the result of works.

Just my tuppence.

That is really a significant part of the same thing that I said.

If we accept the free gift as in = "... any person turns to faith and belief and to works of righteousness then their "free gift" of salvation becomes far better than for those that reject it, but rejecting this "free gift" being as like rejecting amnesty will mean nothing as the person can not truly reject what the higher authority has given. (http://forums.somd.com/religion/245615-salvation-gift-you-grace-god-2.html#post4809684)" Posting #12 above.

Salvation is for everyone, but "accepting" is not for everyone.

:whistle:

That is really a significant part of the same thing that I said.

If we accept the free gift as in = "... any person turns to faith and belief and to works of righteousness then their "free gift" of salvation becomes far better than for those that reject it, but rejecting this "free gift" being as like rejecting amnesty will mean nothing as the person can not truly reject what the higher authority has given. (http://forums.somd.com/religion/245615-salvation-gift-you-grace-god-2.html#post4809684)" Posting #12 above.

Salvation is for everyone, but "accepting" is not for everyone.

:whistle:

No one, including yourself:whistle: can receive a free gift until they accept it. If you don't accept it, you never received it.No matter how you try to spin your definition of "accept".:whistle:

You would have made a quintessential politician by your ability to confuse yourself so thoroughly, that no matter what you said about an issue, you would see yourself with an out to any scenario caused by your confusion.:whistle:

No one, including yourself:whistle: can receive a free gift until they accept it. If you don't accept it, you never received it. No matter how you try to spin your definition of "accept".:whistle:


You just repeating the same thing over and over will never make it as accurate or true.

What you are really expressing is the old vain-glory as in a pretentious-pompous-arrogance that people think they can effectively defy God, as if your defiance has some authority when it does not.

When people do defy God then they do harm to them self, Galatians 6:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%206:6-8&version=KJV), but our actions or our decisions do not change or affect what God has decreed.

You claim that every person must accept it or not accept it and that is fine by me, but you and no one has any authority over the will of God who has decreed the salvation.

And for the record this is NOT my own definition of "acceptance" but the definition of the "free gift" as that is told in the opening #1 posting of this thread.

Salvation is about a "free gift", while accepting or not accepting is about growing in faith.

:coffee:

This is a vivid example that according to the Bible then every person everywhere does get saved as in a universal salvation.

If that salvation required belief or faith or acceptance or anything then that requirement would be a type of "work" or of earning the salvation which then it would not be a "free gift" as it is.

Every person throughout humanity does indeed get saved in the end and not even one sinful sheep is to be left out.

It is just that simple - that Jesus paid the penalty in full for everyone.

:getdown:

Jimbo,
Your logic is skewed; you have a presupposition that everyone gets the same gift. That’s not Biblical or normative for scripture. Universalism amounts to nothing more than cosmic child abuse, as there would be no reason for the cross, and God could have used a better way. As it stands the cross Glorifies God showing off that he is both just, and mericful by not giving us what we deserve. Your lack of seeing yourself as Gods see’s you, and denying the depravity of man causes your lack of a need for a savior. When you see yourself as the chief of sinners then you will run to the cross. In the mean time your idol (The God you dreamed up) suffices to placate your conscious to some degree leaving you in a state of being miserable and unsatisfied because of not being in a right relationship with the one true God.

Jimbo,
Your logic is skewed; you have a presupposition that everyone gets the same gift. That’s not Biblical or normative for scripture. Universalism amounts to nothing more than cosmic child abuse, as there would be no reason for the cross, and God could have used a better way. As it stands the cross Glorifies God showing off that he is both just, and mericful by not giving us what we deserve. Your lack of seeing yourself as Gods see’s you, and denying the depravity of man causes your lack of a need for a savior. When you see yourself as the chief of sinners then you will run to the cross. In the mean time your idol (The God you dreamed up) suffices to placate your conscious to some degree leaving you in a state of being miserable and unsatisfied because of not being in a right relationship with the one true God.


Fundamentally I do agree with you in that.

Each and every person does have different levels of the truth, and each person does need to accept their own status and each person needs to repent and to start doing right, or else their lives will be lost and harder to live with when they reject or deny the truth, or as some say to accept or reject Jesus and the salvation.

The thing is that to accept the "free gift" of salvation then the first thing that one must do is to recognize that our acceptance or even our repentance or our turning is NOT how we get that salvation which is given free.

God gives the salvation as a "free gift" (see post #1) and it is not a thing that we must pick up or to take or accept or to earn or any such action.

If one does accept the truth then yes we do get a far better deal, but those that reject or refuse the truth are still to be saved anyway because the salvation is a free gift.

I see it as like the resurrection day - in that no one gets to reject or refuse to be resurrected, because we do not have that authority to effectively say "no" to God when it is God's will.

And it is God's will that every person does indeed come to repentance and so everyone will - 2 Peter 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:8-10&version=KJV)

Jimbo,
Your logic is skewed; you have a presupposition that everyone gets the same gift. That’s not Biblical or normative for scripture. Universalism amounts to nothing more than cosmic child abuse, as there would be no reason for the cross, and God could have used a better way. As it stands the cross Glorifies God showing off that he is both just, and mericful by not giving us what we deserve. Your lack of seeing yourself as Gods see’s you, and denying the depravity of man causes your lack of a need for a savior. When you see yourself as the chief of sinners then you will run to the cross. In the mean time your idol (The God you dreamed up) suffices to placate your conscious to some degree leaving you in a state of being miserable and unsatisfied because of not being in a right relationship with the one true God.

Unfortunately, JP has no logic other than that whatever he wants things to be, then they are that. Just because he is.

I do not know what party affiliation he was campaigning under (from reading posts, I have to assume he was running for some office), but to me, it was for the party of "If it is free, it is for me, regardless of who said it."

So sad that so many, like JP, just diss God, His Word, and His Sons work, because free to them has no price attached to anyone.

Well, not everyone is chosen to understand this stuff fully, either. Putting water in the trough doesn't make all the horses thirsty.

JP stated "The real God does not make request as He makes commands."

This doesn't allow for "Free Will". God doesn't command our acceptance!

God Woos us constantly, until we make the decision to accept his gift.

We can't accept what isn't offered, but we can deny what is offered!

Well, not everyone is chosen to understand this stuff fully, either. Putting water in the trough doesn't make all the horses thirsty.


I agree with that, and not being chosen is another point that salvation has nothing to do with our own choices.

On Judgement Day then everyone will believe at that time, and then every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, per Romans 14:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:10-13&version=KJV) and again in Philippians 2:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202:9-13&version=KJV) and particularly here in Isaiah 45:22-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:22-24&version=KJV), and it says EVERYONE so then is the time when everyone gets saved.

:coffee:

JP stated "The real God does not make request as He makes commands."

This doesn't allow for "Free Will". God doesn't command our acceptance!

God Woos us constantly, until we make the decision to accept his gift.

We can't accept what isn't offered, but we can deny what is offered!


That is because you have the truth confused and mixed up.

People really have a very limited and restricted "free will" and in most people it is not "free will" at all.

We people simply think and believe far too highly of our selves when it is neither justified or true.

We are NOT like God = Genesis 3:4-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:4-7&version=KJV)

So if we go according to what the Bible tells us then we not only do not have much of a "free will" but that people are played as like puppets on a string.

The thing is that most people are mistaking "free will" with "optional choices" as like we can choose between strawberry ice cream or else vanilla ice cream and thereby it means we have a "free will" because of having options and choices and that is not accurate.

Most people simply live by their animal instincts and uncontrolled emotional output, while a true "free will" is on a far higher level of enlightenment.

every knee shall bow and every tongue shall carress, :coffee:

JP = really really gay

JP = really really


There are not many people that will take a Bible text and turn it into some thing dirty as like this person above has done.

Surely he must think he is picking at me but it was a mocking of God.

I certainly do not feel any sympathy for the dirty degenerate, and I hope he does get what he is asking for.

:offtopic:

I certainly do not feel any sympathy for the dirty degenerate, and I hope he does get what he is asking for.What do think that will be? By your philosophy, you'll both end up in heaven no matter what, so no punishment there.

There are not many people that will take a Bible text and turn it into some thing dirty as like this person above has done.

Certainly. I think a more realistic assessment of you would be:

JP = really really inconsistent (except in universalism, you seem to stick to that one)

What do think that will be? By your philosophy, you'll both end up in heaven no matter what, so no punishment there.


I have no idea as to whatever will happen in that other person's life.

And neither I nor the Bible are ever talking about a punishment after they die.

But there are certain principle that do apply to every person anywhere.

As like a person who lies becomes a liar, and one who steals becomes a thief, and one who mocks God will not like the repercussions.

The Bible says = "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." KJV. Galatians 6:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%206:6-8&version=KJV)

:shrug:

I have no idea as to whatever will happen in that other person's life.

And neither I nor the Bible are ever talking about a punishment after they die.

But there are certain principle that do apply to every person anywhere.

As like a person who lies becomes a liar, and one who steals becomes a thief, and one who mocks God will not like the repercussions.

The Bible says = "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." KJV. Galatians 6:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%206:6-8&version=KJV)

:shrug:

No, No, No...

You lie, because you are a liar.
You steel, because you are a theif.
Telling lies dosent make you a liar, you are a liar, and thats why you tell lies!
Only Gods Common restraing grace keeps us/restrains us, from what we are capable of.

Those things are in our very nature and we are corrupt in our Adamic nature.
No Liar, no theif, or no fornicator will inherit the Kingdom of heaven.

Poor JP. He knows as much about Florida as he does the Bible. Which is nothing.

Just ask him.

God also knows in advance who will accept the gift and who will reject it. The ones who accept it are among the chosen, adopted into the ultimate Royal Family.

Well, not everyone is chosen to understand this stuff fully, either. Putting water in the trough doesn't make all the horses thirsty.

So it isn't our choice? I've been reading up on the Christian concept of "free-will" in the Bible and I'm curious; where do you see this concept in the Bible?

...I should probably start a new thread, I can do that if you prefer :smile:

So it isn't our choice? I've been reading up on the Christian concept of "free-will" in the Bible and I'm curious; where do you see this concept in the Bible?

...I should probably start a new thread, I can do that if you prefer :smile:

Fire it up!

Fire it up!

I still think you are SM 's demon seed lurking in a swamp in Florida.

Are there not enough Florida forums that you can spew your rhetoric?

No, No, No...

You lie, because you are a liar.
You steel, because you are a theif.
Telling lies dosent make you a liar, you are a liar, and thats why you tell lies!
Only Gods Common restraing grace keeps us/restrains us, from what we are capable of.

Those things are in our very nature and we are corrupt in our Adamic nature.
No Liar, no theif, or no fornicator will inherit the Kingdom of heaven.


I know of the doctrine of every baby being born as a sinner and every person born with the original sin but I find that to be a twisted and false doctrine.

Every baby is born innocent and each baby gets taught to sin from day one and onward, as the children are taught by their parents and by society to become liars and thieves and assorted sinners.

Under that doctrine of original sin then no person could inherit the Kingdom of God, and Jesus teaching forgiveness would be senseless if each persons is inherently a sinner.

:eyebrow:

I know of the doctrine of every baby being born as a sinner and every person born with the original sin but I find that to be a twisted and false doctrine.

Every baby is born innocent and each baby gets taught to sin from day one and onward, as the children are taught by their parents and by society to become liars and thieves and assorted sinners.

Well, VoteJP, I guess you haven't observed any infants when they become toddlers and begin to walk and talk - and cry when they don't get their way - and raise their hand in defiance of a parent - or go ahead and do something they were told not to do. Defiance and disregard of authority was the original sin! We are all born with it.


Under that doctrine of original sin then no person could inherit the Kingdom of God,

Correcto Mundo! That's what God's Message has been all along!


and Jesus teaching forgiveness would be senseless if each persons is inherently a sinner.

:eyebrow:

On the contrary, we are all under condemnation already.

Jesus came not to save the righteous (of which there are none) BUT to forgive and save repentant sinners from the impending Wrath of God. And as many as have received Him and believe that Jesus is The Son of God will become Children of God. And as His Children - they will inherit the Kingdom of God as promised.

That's God's Plan of Salvation - through Christ alone! (John 14:6)

We went through this whole thing what, a month or two ago?

So many like JP think they are saved and heaven-bound just because they are.

So many think that they are doomed thousands of years before they even take their first breath.

The Bible says what it says - the Word preaches what It preaches. We who preach the Bible have said what it says about salvation - that salvation is the responsibility, and belongs to, the will and confession of one who wants to be saved.

Move on. God has spoken through the entire Word. Those that chose only to base their doctrine on bits and pieces of the Word, and not in the context of the entire Bible, do so at their own peril.

Good luck to them. I believe I will not see them in heaven.

No one, nobody, deserves to hear the Gospel preached twice until everybody alive has heard It once.:whistle:

We went through this whole thing what, a month or two ago?These topics are annoyingly repetitive, aren't they?


The Bible says what it says - the Word preaches what It preaches.That wrapped up nicely. I guess we can close up the forum and we can all find somewhere else to hang out. I'm headed to the nearest pub... :cheers:

That wrapped up nicely. I guess we can close up the forum and we can all find somewhere else to hang out. I'm headed to the nearest pub... :cheers:
No kidding. Da Popa has-a spoken!

I know of the doctrine of every baby being born as a sinner and every person born with the original sin but I find that to be a twisted and false doctrine.

Every baby is born innocent and each baby gets taught to sin from day one and onward, as the children are taught by their parents and by society to become liars and thieves and assorted sinners.

Under that doctrine of original sin then no person could inherit the Kingdom of God, and Jesus teaching forgiveness would be senseless if each persons is inherently a sinner.

:eyebrow:In one post you preach about predestination and now you swing all the way over to Pelagianism. Man, you are all over the place!

In one post you preach about predestination and now you swing all the way over to Pelagianism. Man, you are all over the place!


Being "all over the place" is a compliment to me, because orthodoxies keep people locked away in a closed box.

I had never heard of "Pelagian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius)" before, but apparently he is just another example that a better understanding has always been around while people continually reject the truth for the more soothing nonsense of the orthodoxies.

The really big confusion in Christianity is that the Gospel of salvation is about being saved from the evils of this world in this lifetime, but Christianity has changed that into its mystical salvation after-death in its magical Heaven which is a worthless agenda.

Seeking to be saved after-death is a silly and ridiculous goal based totally on the fear of death and on senseless superstitions.

Jesus declares that - God is of the living and NOT of the dead, Mark 12:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:26-34&version=KJV)

:coffee:

So it isn't our choice? I've been reading up on the Christian concept of "free-will" in the Bible and I'm curious; where do you see this concept in the Bible?

...I should probably start a new thread, I can do that if you prefer :smile:

I am pleased that you started that discussion on that other thread (http://forums.somd.com/religion/245830-free-will-religion.html) because the Christian concept is far different than is the reality, which I will tell here since I started this subject (http://forums.somd.com/religion/245615-salvation-gift-you-grace-god-3.html#post4810540).

Every person could have a free-will but very few ever actually chooses to use their free will.

The surest way of expressing our "free will" is through renunciation (http://fastingforgod.org/?p=19) - with particular emphasis on fasting (http://www.ccci.org/training-and-growth/devotional-life/personal-guide-to-fasting/index.htm). An example is becoming a vegetarian for the right reason of non violence to the animals would be an act of "free will" because that is an act of defiance against our unGodly human nature. To personally stop one's own addiction is always based on the free-will, as like stopping the addiction to cigarettes because that addiction has control over the person.

Most people have the vain ideas that everyone has a free-will simply because they can pick and choose between options and that is a very shallow doctrine with very little truth to it.

As like an executioner gives the person the choice of being shot or hung or lethal injection - so the choice means little as they are getting executed, so if the person had a "free will" then they would chose not to be executed. So too when Christians make the untrue claim that each person must do as the Christians demand or else their God is going to burn the people in a monstrous place that they call "hell" then that threat is designed to deny the person(s) any free-will.

When people work at jobs that they do not like or love, and they eat foods without just care, and live their life without purpose or meaning, then these people have completely discarded any such free-will, and as such the majority of humanity live and die as being blind stupid sheep doing just as they are told to do.

In this evil world the only way a true act of free-will can be identified must be in bucking the system(s) because compliance and assimilation are very seldom if ever a true act of free-will.

Link = Renunciation | Fasting for God (http://fastingforgod.org/?p=19) , and - be in the world but not of the world - John 17:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:14-17&version=KJV)

:coffee: