Question: what is the greatest form of love?

*This is a general question, I'm not asking for specific examples of actual people.

Sacrifice.

Agape.

Sacrifice.

Libby, bravo!


John 15
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Is God absolutely, entirely, good and loving?

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?

This is one of the reasons I believe what I believe. Because if you ever can come up with a way or a world in which Christ would not go to the cross (or would not have to), you have to strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love.

Does that make sense?

Libby, bravo!


John 15
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Is God absolutely, entirely, good and loving?

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?

This is one of the reasons I believe what I believe. Because if you ever can come up with a way or a world in which Christ would not go to the cross (or would not have to), you have to strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love.

Does that make sense?

Psst...agape love is sacrifical. You know, just so you can "bravo" me too! :lol: :razz:

And yes, it makes sense. :yay:

Psst...agape love is sacrifical. You know, just so you can "bravo" me too! :lol: :razz:

And yes, it makes sense. :yay:

R1, you're a hoot. :buddies:

Libby, bravo!


John 15
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Is God absolutely, entirely, good and loving?

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?

This is one of the reasons I believe what I believe. Because if you ever can come up with a way or a world in which Christ would not go to the cross (or would not have to), you have to strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely! IMO, this is part of why the LDS theology of God the Father and God the son being separate personages cannot be right. A father does not send the son, even if the son is willing to go. The ultimate love is to go Himself.
This is also what I believe we are called to, in everyday life, in great and grand ways, as well as in small ways. I believe God wants us be willing to make sacrifices for love of Him; some as martyrs, like those of the early church, but also in our daily lives, such as the sacrifices of love a parent has for a child. However, the Scriptures tell us it's easy to love those who love us. What about our willingness to sacrifice for those we don't know or love? Can we make sacrifices for others for love of God? If so, what is the purpose of those acts of sacrificial love?

Question: what is the greatest form of love?

*This is a general question, I'm not asking for specific examples of actual people.

I know this is the religion forum, but the love of your child, to me is the greatest form of love. But fits also in religion, i.e. John 3:16

Libby, bravo!


John 15
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Is God absolutely, entirely, good and loving?

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?

This is one of the reasons I believe what I believe. Because if you ever can come up with a way or a world in which Christ would not go to the cross (or would not have to), you have to strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love.

Does that make sense?

But, Zguy28, you have professed belief in Calvin's teaching that Salvation is granted only to whom God chooses and kept away from others. Thus Christ's work on the Cross is basically "limited Atonement" meant for some, not for all.

If that's the case, it would seem that belief in "limited Atonement" would indeed strip away some of God's "infinite goodness and love" for mankind after the Bible proclaims the Gospel Message that God so loved the world?

(John 3:16-18)

But, Zguy28, you have professed belief in Calvin's teaching that Salvation is granted only to whom God chooses and kept away from others. Thus Christ's work on the Cross is basically "limited Atonement" meant for some, not for all.

If that's the case, it would seem that belief in "limited Atonement" would indeed strip away some of God's "infinite goodness and love" for mankind after the Bible proclaims the Gospel Message that God so loved the world?

(John 3:16-18)What part of "all have sinned" and are condemned did you miss?

It's a wonder He has mercy on any of us.

What part of "all have sinned" and are condemned did you miss?

It's a wonder He has mercy on any of us.

Didn't miss it. Just can't find "Calvin's law" that states Forgiveness through Christ's Atoning Blood is limited and not offered to all.

:whistle:

I know this is the religion forum, but the love of your child, to me is the greatest form of love. But fits also in religion, i.e. John 3:16

I would sacrifice my life for that of my child.

But, Zguy28, you have professed belief in Calvin's teaching that Salvation is granted only to whom God chooses and kept away from others. Thus Christ's work on the Cross is basically "limited Atonement" meant for some, not for all.

If that's the case, it would seem that belief in "limited Atonement" would indeed strip away some of God's "infinite goodness and love" for mankind after the Bible proclaims the Gospel Message that God so loved the world?

(John 3:16-18)

Didn't miss it. Just can't find "Calvin's law" that states Forgiveness through Christ's Atoning Blood is limited and not offered to all.

:whistle:

Dude, seriously, couldn't you practice a little love and answer the question instead of haranguing Zguy for his theology? :smh:

Didn't miss it. Just can't find "Calvin's law" that states Forgiveness through Christ's Atoning Blood is limited and not offered to all.

:whistle:As opposed to all of Starman's laws?:howdy:

Dude, seriously, couldn't you practice a little love and answer the question instead of haranguing Zguy for his theology? :smh:

So, do you agree with Calvinism as well?

Let's take another look at Zguy's post:


Is God absolutely, entirely, good and loving?

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?

This is one of the reasons I believe what I believe. Because if you ever can come up with a way or a world in which Christ would not go to the cross (or would not have to), you have to strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love.

The point I was making is how Zguy28 can believe what he wrote on one hand about God showing "...the greatest love in all creation" but on the other hand he claims belief in Calvinism that teaches God has already predestined some souls to Hell and there was no say in the matter on their part.

IOW: According to Calvinism, God made the deliberate and premeditated decision to predestine some people not to partake of the opportunity to accept Christ as Saviour. They will be sent to Hell when they die. That concept sure appears to "strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love".

John 15
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

How could He have shown mankind the greatest love in all creation without Christ laying down his life?


Actually that verse does not really mean to go out and get one-self killed as an act of greater love - no.

To get one-self killed would be laying down their death instead of their life.

To lay down one's life is like dedicating one's life to God, as like a life long commitment as like a Priest or a Nun or a Monk or Minister or in service to God for their entire life. It also means to lay down one's life as like done in marriage and make a marriage vow of one's entire life as a lifetime commitment to the other person and then do it for their entire life till the end.

To go out and get one-self killed and to call that as a greater love is NOT really accurate as that is just giving up one's life.

The popular interpretation about getting one-self killed as being some greater love has come from a misapplication by our military as they claim every soldier that dies in combat is some how showing the greatest of loves when that is so very far from true. They are just getting themselves killed and it has little or nothing to do with love.

Jesus laid down His life, but Jesus also knew that He was to rise again in 3 days, and Jesus' love is a long term deal and not a one time sacrifice.

Just FYI.

:whistle:

Absolutely! IMO, this is part of why the LDS theology of God the Father and God the son being separate personages cannot be right...
This troubles me a lot. The Father & the Son (Jesus) aren't separate beings?

This troubles me a lot. The Father & the Son (Jesus) aren't separate beings?

Oh, c'mon, IS. You know what I mean when I am referring to LDS theology. They believe that they are entirely separate beings, we believe they are two of the three persons of the Holy Trinity.

So, do you agree with Calvinism as well?


No, but that's beside the point. The question was:

What is the greatest form of love?

I would have thought that is a question that can evoke conversation without theological divisions, but apparently not. :frown:

So, do you agree with Calvinism as well?

Let's take another look at Zguy's post:


The point I was making is how Zguy28 can believe what he wrote on one hand about God showing "...the greatest love in all creation" but on the other hand he claims belief in Calvinism that teaches God has already predestined some souls to Hell and there was no say in the matter on their part.

IOW: According to Calvinism, God made the deliberate and premeditated decision to predestine some people not to partake of the opportunity to accept Christ as Saviour. They will be sent to Hell when they die. That concept sure appears to "strip away some of God's infinite goodness and love".Does not Jesus tell us plainly that it is the greatest love?

In order to show the greatest love, God/Jesus had to die for us.
In order for Him to die, there had to be death.
In order for there to be death, there had to be sin.
In order for there to be sin, there must be a sinner.
In order for there to be a sinner, there must be a standard or law that is righteous and just.
In order for there to be a law, there must be a Lawgiver who is righteous and just.
In order for the Lawgiver to be righteous and just, He must punish sin.
In order to show the greatest love for mankind, the Lawgiver had to die for some and punish others and it had to be that way. In no possible scenario could all men be allowed to live or else sin effectively has no punishment and Godis unjust.
Therefore God, in His election, has shown the world His greatest love.


If believing in election and denying universal salvation strips away God's goodness, then He is unjust, and not the God of the bible.

Does not Jesus tell us plainly that it is the greatest love?

In order to show the greatest love, God/Jesus had to die for us.
In order for Him to die, there had to be death.
In order for there to be death, there had to be sin.
In order for there to be sin, there must be a sinner.
In order for there to be a sinner, there must be a standard or law that is righteous and just.
In order for there to be a law, there must be a Lawgiver who is righteous and just.
In order for the Lawgiver to be righteous and just, He must punish sin.


Stop. Let's take it right there.

So here's the deal (according to Calvin's law):

God makes the law.
Then He causes a person to break that law.
Then He forbids that person from having any opportunity to make restitution.
Then He punishes the person with the death penalty for breaking the law that He made him/her break.

Where do you see that type of "lawgiver being righteous and just?

:shrug:

Stop. Let's take it right there.

So here's the deal (according to Calvin's law):

God makes the law.
Then He causes a person to break that law.
Then He forbids that person from having any opportunity to make restitution.
Then He punishes the person with the death penalty for breaking the law that He made him/her break.

Where do you see that type of "lawgiver being righteous and just?

:shrug:
No, here's the deal, God does not cause sin.

No, here's the deal, God does not cause sin.

No, He does not "cause sin" but because God so loved the world He gives the opportunity for the sinner to be Forgiven of sin and offers it to all mankind through the Atoning Blood of Christ.

For those who choose to accept His Plan of Salvation! (John 3:16-18)
:yahoo:

Oh, c'mon, IS. You know what I mean when I am referring to LDS theology. They believe that they are entirely separate beings, we believe they are two of the three persons of the Holy Trinity.
Yes I do Libby but don't you think that the Christian Godhead is comprised of 3 separate beings? I know what the LDS believe about God but you made it sound like The Father, Son & HS are not separate beings. Help me understand your position on this please...

Yes I do Libby but don't you think that the Christian Godhead is comprised of 3 separate beings? I know what the LDS believe about God but you made it sound like The Father, Son & HS are not separate beings. Help me understand your position on this please...

Good God, are you looking for something to disagree with me about? You know I believe in the Trinitarian God. One God, in three divine persons. I was speaking specifically to LDS theology. End of story.

Stop. Let's take it right there.

So here's the deal (according to Calvin's law):

God makes the law.
Then He causes a person to break that law.
Then He forbids that person from having any opportunity to make restitution.
Then He punishes the person with the death penalty for breaking the law that He made him/her break.

Where do you see that type of "lawgiver being righteous and just?

:shrug:

Well, in a nutshell, according to you...

God makes the law.
God gives us a 'sin nature' which makes it impossible to obey that law.
God demands that we believe in His Son, whose existence is only documented in 2000 year old stories.
God condemns us to hell for breaking that law if we don't believe the stories.

Now, clearly, you and I believe there is a lot more to it than that, however, you can't call others beliefs absurd or blasphemous when ours takes a leap of faith, too.

Well, in a nutshell, according to you...

God makes the law.

Correcto Mundo! However that's according to the Bible: (Exodus 20:1-7; Deuteronomy 5:6-21; as well as Ezekiel 44:24; Proverbs 3:1; Proverbs 7:2; Jeremiah 16:11) just to name a few places that verify God "makes" the law. :flowers:


God gives us a 'sin nature' which makes it impossible to obey that law.


Actually, we have all inherited that sin nature from the time that Adam and Eve fell for a lie, were disobedient and were the first of our kind to break God's Law.

God demands that we believe in His Son, whose existence is only documented in 2000 year old stories.

God let's mankind know that through our fallen nature we are sinful, imperfect and not worthy of attaining Heaven through our own efforts and for such we are in a state of separation from Him. We stand condemned already. However, God, through His Love, Mercy and Grace, provided a perfect solution through the Atoning Blood of His Son that enables mankind to be completely forgiven and spiritually reconciled to have fellowship with Him through faith in His Plan of Salvation through which we receive eternal life. And that Life is in His Son, Jesus Christ.

God offers Salvation through Christ as the Only Way, The Only Truth and The Only Life that He will accept. God makes the Offer and let's each individual choose. Unfortunately, it is an offer that many people refuse because of unbelief and because they choose to love the world rather than turn from sin, repent and accept Christ - the Saviour of mankind.

God condemns us to hell for breaking that law if we don't believe the stories.

The Bible states that mankind has already been condemned through our sinful flesh, pride of life and love of the world that has been passed down through the inherent law-breaking Adamic nature. Yet, God does not want for mankind to remain in condemnation and that's why He opens the door to Salvation which is the Only Way Of Escaping His Wrath. However people need to be willing to open the door of their heart in faith, believing that Christ is The Son of God and accepting Him as personal Lord and Saviour.

Now, clearly, you and I believe there is a lot more to it than that, however, you can't call others beliefs absurd or blasphemous when ours takes a leap of faith, too.

The Bible proclaims that there have been and will continue to be many deceptions that sound good but in effect lead people away from the Truth; whereby people will end up following false christs and false teachings that led them astray from the Only Way that God has provided.

The Bible proclaims that there is Only One True Faith that leads to Salvation:

Jesus said, "I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life and no one can come unto the Father except by Me." (John 14:6)

People have the choice to believe or reject what Jesus claimed of Himself.

Good God, are you looking for something to disagree with me about? You know I believe in the Trinitarian God. One God, in three divine persons. I was speaking specifically to LDS theology. End of story.
Yes but YOU disagreed with the LDS about the Father & Son being separate beings...:wench: :roflmao:

Yes but YOU disagreed with the LDS about the Father & Son being separate beings...:wench: :roflmao:

You are just plain difficult, y'know that? I may have to stop in at RR and put you in your place.

You are just plain difficult, y'know that? I may have to stop in at RR and put you in your place.
I've been called easy but never difficult. I'll take it as a compliment; TYVM and I'll be "in my place" when you arrive...:yahoo: :love:

In order to show the greatest love for mankind, the Lawgiver had to die for some and punish others and it had to be that way. In no possible scenario could all men be allowed to live or else sin effectively has no punishment and Godis unjust.
Therefore God, in His election, has shown the world His greatest love.

I'm a bit confused about this. In order to show the greatest love for mankind, the Lawgivier had to die for some and punish others? Why couldn't He have died for everybody? Wouldn't that have shown the greatest possible love for mankind? If we are all sinners, why would He have to selectively die for some, but punish others?

If God died for the some, then isn't He just as unjust for not meting out punishment for those He died for?

What is the just punishment for sin?

I'm a bit confused about this. In order to show the greatest love for mankind, the Lawgivier had to die for some and punish others? Why couldn't He have died for everybody? Wouldn't that have shown the greatest possible love for mankind? If we are all sinners, why would He have to selectively die for some, but punish others?

If God died for the some, then isn't He just as unjust for not meting out punishment for those He died for?

What is the just punishment for sin?


Of course you above just hit the point directly.

Most people and especially mainstream Christians do not know what the ideals of "love" mean. As in they claim that burning souls in a hell is some act of love which is absurd and barbaric.

The fact is that Jesus did die for every person with no one being lost or left out, as everybody does get saved.

And the message is very clear that God loves His enemies / the sinners - and that does not mean that we turn our enemies into friends and then love our friendly enemies - no, it means that God loves His enemies and God does good to His enemies - Matthew 5:43-48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:43-48&version=KJV)

If even one sinful sheep were to be lost then that would make God and His salvation into a failure - with just one lost sheep God would fail.

I'm a bit confused about this. In order to show the greatest love for mankind, the Lawgivier had to die for some and punish others? Why couldn't He have died for everybody? Wouldn't that have shown the greatest possible love for mankind? If we are all sinners, why would He have to selectively die for some, but punish others?

If God died for the some, then isn't He just as unjust for not meting out punishment for those He died for?

What is the just punishment for sin?
Jesus DID die for the sins of the whole world: (1 John 2v2). IOW, His death on the cross CAN cover the sins of the whole world IF the whole world would accept Him.The problem is that the whole world won't accept Him...

Jesus DID die for the sins of the whole world: (1 John 2v2). IOW, His death on the cross CAN cover the sins of the whole world IF the whole world would accept Him.The problem is that the whole world won't accept Him...


The "Italian" above is partly correct, because every person does need to do the works of salvation or else they do remain lost.

Faith without works is dead - James 2:17-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:17-20&version=KJV)

To accept is a type of work, just like faith and belief and righteousness are other types of works.

The thing is that this kind of "salvation" means here-and-now in this lifetime as in being "saved" in this evil world.

It does not mean salvation after death because Jesus did make "propitiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propitiation)" for the sins of the "ENTIRE WORLD" as the "Italian" told from 1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1-11&version=KJV)

In this world here-and-now every person does need to accept the truth and believe the Gospel and do works of righteousness to be saved from the evils of this world - as like being saved from addiction, saved from ignorance, from cruelty, from lies, from evil doers, and etc, as otherwise the persons remain lost, because today is the day of our salvation - 2 Corinthians 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%206:1-4&version=KJV)

:cartwheel