They're on my poo-poo list now so I thought I'd share my experience. Take it for whatever it's worth.

I liked the staff at Breton Vet and ignored my coworkers when they said that they charge waaaaay too much. And then my dog had a loose tooth that resulted in the extraction of, like, 12 teeth and a hefty $1400.00 bill. They seem to have gone over everything with me pretty well so I felt that was probably the going rate, albeit slightly more expensive, for that sort of thing these days. All charges for services so nothing I could really definitively pin point as being inappropriately priced.

Until my mother, in Tennessee, had her older dog's teeth cleaned, 6 extractions - $170 - and they even clipped and painted the dog's nails.

Then today. Last night I noticed that my dog had an ear infection. Since I've never dealt with one before, I called the vet this morning and scheduled an appointment. They're very friendly there at Breton Vet but this time Dr. Fenwick started out with a speech about how I should be giving my dog a supplement for his knees that will one day be arthritic and how they can sell me one that is proven to work, unlike the others that claim they work but ultimately go unabsorbed. I declined but stated that I am not opposed to a glucosamine supplement. I would gladly accept her recommendation then research it on my own. Maybe come back and purchase it if I felt it were necessary and the price was reasonable.


So they do a smear of my dog's ear goo and tell me he has a little doggie ear yeast infection. Easily treated with this prescription medicine - they'll flush my dog's ear and show me how to use the medicine. I allowed that to happen. I then faced the sticker shock as I was leaving.

Exam - $46.20
Ear Smear Analysis - $29.69
Ear Cleaning - $39.35
Malacetic Otic Ear Cleaner, 4 oz - $16.69
Conzol 1%, 60cc - $36.49
Total = $168.42

$168?!

And I'm supposed to go back in two weeks to make sure his ear has cleared up. Which I asked why I'd need to go back for that, wouldn't it be obvious? But they said no, they have to check for resistant bacteria.


So I did some shopping around for the medicines. I did an internet search and then called around to some of the local places like Petco and Well Pet. That Malacetic acid (which is just an acetic acid - as in vinegar - and boric acid solution) that I bought goes for about $6 for the 4 oz or more typically about $16 for the 16 oz bottle. And the Conzol costs about $21. I would still need a prescription but only for the Conzol. Breton charges a $7 fee to write a prescription that you take elsewhere but the point is that I just paid double the actual cost of the medicines and could have still gotten them from local, reputable, insured places of business. DOUBLE!!

I called them back and asked them if I could return the medicines since I hadn't even opened them. They said no. Of course.

I certainly do not appreciate this. And I'm back in the market for a new veterinarian. Why is a trustworthy veterinarian so hard to find?

They're on my poo-poo list now so I thought I'd share my experience. Take it for whatever it's worth.

I liked the staff at Breton Vet and ignored my coworkers when they said that they charge waaaaay too much. And then my dog had a loose tooth that resulted in the extraction of, like, 12 teeth and a hefty $1400.00 bill. They seem to have gone over everything with me pretty well so I felt that was probably the going rate, albeit slightly more expensive, for that sort of thing these days. All charges for services so nothing I could really definitively pin point as being inappropriately priced.

Until my mother, in Tennessee, had her older dog's teeth cleaned, 6 extractions - $170 - and they even clipped and painted the dog's nails.

Then today. Last night I noticed that my dog had an ear infection. Since I've never dealt with one before, I called the vet this morning and scheduled an appointment. They're very friendly there at Breton Vet but this time Dr. Fenwick started out with a speech about how I should be giving my dog a supplement for his knees that will one day be arthritic and how they can sell me one that is proven to work, unlike the others that claim they work but ultimately go unabsorbed. I declined but stated that I am not opposed to a glucosamine supplement. I would gladly accept her recommendation then research it on my own. Maybe come back and purchase it if I felt it were necessary and the price was reasonable.


So they do a smear of my dog's ear goo and tell me he has a little doggie ear yeast infection. Easily treated with this prescription medicine - they'll flush my dog's ear and show me how to use the medicine. I allowed that to happen. I then faced the sticker shock as I was leaving.

Exam - $46.20
Ear Smear Analysis - $29.69
Ear Cleaning - $39.35
Malacetic Otic Ear Cleaner, 4 oz - $16.69
Conzol 1%, 60cc - $36.49
Total = $168.42

$168?!

And I'm supposed to go back in two weeks to make sure his ear has cleared up. Which I asked why I'd need to go back for that, wouldn't it be obvious? But they said no, they have to check for resistant bacteria.


So I did some shopping around for the medicines. I did an internet search and then called around to some of the local places like Petco and Well Pet. That Malacetic acid (which is just an acetic acid - as in vinegar - and boric acid solution) that I bought goes for about $6 for the 4 oz or more typically about $16 for the 16 oz bottle. And the Conzol costs about $21. I would still need a prescription but only for the Conzol. Breton charges a $7 fee to write a prescription that you take elsewhere but the point is that I just paid double the actual cost of the medicines and could have still gotten them from local, reputable, insured places of business. DOUBLE!!

I called them back and asked them if I could return the medicines since I hadn't even opened them. They said no. Of course.

I certainly do not appreciate this. And I'm back in the market for a new veterinarian. Why is a trustworthy veterinarian so hard to find?
They do the Mark-Up for the Money. For simple things, like an Ear Infection..ake the Pet to the Well Pet Clinic. The only thing different at Well Pet, is the fact that they don't have X-Ray capibilities. If it is a simple Pet Visit, it is so MUCH cheaper than at a regular Vet! The Vets are Licensed, just like at the Animal Hospitals, and the medications are the same, and they are fresh! Sorry that you had to go through this, but I went through almost the same scenairio 2 years ago, so I switched. I am very happy with Calvert Well Pet Clinic.

The Well Pet Clinic is good and is cheaper. The only thing with them is they have limited hours. I use either Well Pet or Three Notch Vet in Holllywood depending on the situation. Good luck and your dog is lucky to have you looking out for his/her needs.

They're on my poo-poo list now so I thought I'd share my experience. Take it for whatever it's worth.

I liked the staff at Breton Vet and ignored my coworkers when they said that they charge waaaaay too much. And then my dog had a loose tooth that resulted in the extraction of, like, 12 teeth and a hefty $1400.00 bill. They seem to have gone over everything with me pretty well so I felt that was probably the going rate, albeit slightly more expensive, for that sort of thing these days. All charges for services so nothing I could really definitively pin point as being inappropriately priced.

Until my mother, in Tennessee, had her older dog's teeth cleaned, 6 extractions - $170 - and they even clipped and painted the dog's nails.

Then today. Last night I noticed that my dog had an ear infection. Since I've never dealt with one before, I called the vet this morning and scheduled an appointment. They're very friendly there at Breton Vet but this time Dr. Fenwick started out with a speech about how I should be giving my dog a supplement for his knees that will one day be arthritic and how they can sell me one that is proven to work, unlike the others that claim they work but ultimately go unabsorbed. I declined but stated that I am not opposed to a glucosamine supplement. I would gladly accept her recommendation then research it on my own. Maybe come back and purchase it if I felt it were necessary and the price was reasonable.


So they do a smear of my dog's ear goo and tell me he has a little doggie ear yeast infection. Easily treated with this prescription medicine - they'll flush my dog's ear and show me how to use the medicine. I allowed that to happen. I then faced the sticker shock as I was leaving.

Exam - $46.20
Ear Smear Analysis - $29.69
Ear Cleaning - $39.35
Malacetic Otic Ear Cleaner, 4 oz - $16.69
Conzol 1%, 60cc - $36.49
Total = $168.42

$168?!

And I'm supposed to go back in two weeks to make sure his ear has cleared up. Which I asked why I'd need to go back for that, wouldn't it be obvious? But they said no, they have to check for resistant bacteria.


So I did some shopping around for the medicines. I did an internet search and then called around to some of the local places like Petco and Well Pet. That Malacetic acid (which is just an acetic acid - as in vinegar - and boric acid solution) that I bought goes for about $6 for the 4 oz or more typically about $16 for the 16 oz bottle. And the Conzol costs about $21. I would still need a prescription but only for the Conzol. Breton charges a $7 fee to write a prescription that you take elsewhere but the point is that I just paid double the actual cost of the medicines and could have still gotten them from local, reputable, insured places of business. DOUBLE!!

I called them back and asked them if I could return the medicines since I hadn't even opened them. They said no. Of course.

I certainly do not appreciate this. And I'm back in the market for a new veterinarian. Why is a trustworthy veterinarian so hard to find?

I am sorry to hear that you got the same treatment that I have gotten there in the past. I liked everything about the practice until the bills rolled in. I have since moved on like the others.

I've heard good things about the vet in Callaway too.

I also suffered from "sticker shock" at Breton Vet. The people there are friendly but, JEESH!! I felt like all they saw when I walked in was $$$$$. I started going to Three Notch Vet and am so happy with their care and their prices.

The Well Pet Clinic is good and is cheaper. The only thing with them is they have limited hours. I use either Well Pet or Three Notch Vet in Holllywood depending on the situation. Good luck and your dog is lucky to have you looking out for his/her needs.

I use all kinds vet in callaway they are husband and wife run business with one other person working for them. they might be a little high but i won't change vets as one of them bruno seems to like and doesn't give a hard time to.

I've heard good things about the vet in Callaway too.

thanks ginwoman that is who i use and i love them...they always figure out what is wrong with my baby and get her straightened out and can always fit her in when there is a problem i need taken care of too.

I used to use Dr Fenwick when she was in her old building by the funeral home..and at the time had probably 45 cats when I was showing heavily and spent ALOT of money there..I even had everyone tested for leukemia after a show scare and it cost several thousand...until....My old boxer which was under her care lost control of her hind legs...we were there all the time..no help she drug her hind end and would be raw..I decided to get her a doggie wheel chair for like $600 I needed a vet to sign at that time that she needed it...I called..no return call...I called no return call..I called and said I need my records I am transferring to another vet...Lynn called me back to ask why? So now you call when I want to leave what about when I called when I needed something for my dog...she said I can sign it for you but need to do another exam...excuse me...she cant walk has not walked since you saw her last nor the first few times you saw her...I dont need to pay another exam...ugg


Oh btw 1/3 white vinegar and 2/3 water in ears will change the ph so fungus and yeast will not grow....

I used to use Dr Fenwick when she was in her old building by the funeral home..and at the time had probably 45 cats when I was showing heavily and spent ALOT of money there..I even had everyone tested for leukemia after a show scare and it cost several thousand...until....My old boxer which was under her care lost control of her hind legs...we were there all the time..no help she drug her hind end and would be raw..I decided to get her a doggie wheel chair for like $600 I needed a vet to sign at that time that she needed it...I called..no return call...I called no return call..I called and said I need my records I am transferring to another vet...Lynn called me back to ask why? So now you call when I want to leave what about when I called when I needed something for my dog...she said I can sign it for you but need to do another exam...excuse me...she cant walk has not walked since you saw her last nor the first few times you saw her...I dont need to pay another exam...ugg


Oh btw 1/3 white vinegar and 2/3 water in ears will change the ph so fungus and yeast will not grow....

:confused:...you needed a vet to sign for a wheelchair??? I have purchased two chairs in my day.. and never had to have a vet sign anything!!

as far as the 1400 bill.... wow. But how old is the dog, did they do bloodwork (which should always be done prior to placing a dog under anesthesia.) you are charged for time the pet is under... tools used, and to be cleaned, the time for the tech as they have the patient’s life in their hands as they monitor the dog.

still...:shocking: on the bill... sounds like an er bill :killingme

as for the 168 bill.... thats is fair.. and yes you do need to go back and recheck. I dealt with an ear infection in two dogs for almost a month. (Dr. had them on a crappy ear med... thats why)

Sometimes we use the mobile vet that comes through Petco for vaccinations. Other times we'll use Well Pet. I really like both places. I'll have to become more familiar with the services offered at Well Pet. I was under the impression that they only did things like vaccinations and spay/neutering. My plan was to use Breton only for out of the ordinary things, like this ear infection.

Hindisight being 20/20 and all, I could have definitely taken care of this without the help of a vet but I have absolutely no experience with ear infections and didn't want to take the chance of hurting my dog.

My husband takes the cats to All Kinds. He really likes them but I've been hesitant to go there. One of our cats had an allergy problem over the winter and every single visit was $150+ without actually accomplishing anything. Allergies are obviously very difficult to treat, though. We have some friends that love All Kinds as well.

We haven't tried Three Notch or the place in Charlotte Hall. I'll add them to my list and give them a try.

I used to use Dr Fenwick when she was in her old building by the funeral home..and at the time had probably 45 cats when I was showing heavily and spent ALOT of money there..I even had everyone tested for leukemia after a show scare and it cost several thousand...until....My old boxer which was under her care lost control of her hind legs...we were there all the time..no help she drug her hind end and would be raw..I decided to get her a doggie wheel chair for like $600 I needed a vet to sign at that time that she needed it...I called..no return call...I called no return call..I called and said I need my records I am transferring to another vet...Lynn called me back to ask why? So now you call when I want to leave what about when I called when I needed something for my dog...she said I can sign it for you but need to do another exam...excuse me...she cant walk has not walked since you saw her last nor the first few times you saw her...I dont need to pay another exam...ugg


Oh btw 1/3 white vinegar and 2/3 water in ears will change the ph so fungus and yeast will not grow....

How are you applying this remedy and for how long? I ask as I have been dealing with Vets and high bills thanks to my Lab having an ear infection 2-3 times a year.

How are you applying this remedy and for how long? I ask as I have been dealing with Vets and high bills thanks to my Lab having an ear infection 2-3 times a year.

You should probably clean your lab's ears at least once a week. And definitely after they get wet or swim.

My lab get's ear infection a lot. I forget to clean her ears as much as I probably should, but when I remember I use a cleaner from 1800petmeds. I always save my left over drops so that I can deal with it on my own when she gets another one. Sometimes I order the drops from 1800petmeds and the vet signs off on it. Sometimes I have to go in to the vet and get it. Luckily my vet doesn't charge a lot to check her ears and tell me she has an ear infection and give me the drops.

Sometimes you can help yeasty ears by switching foods and adding a probiotic.

Sometimes you can help yeasty ears by switching foods and adding a probiotic.

:yay:.... (correct food)

Park Vet Clinic or Three Notch Vet

as far as the 1400 bill.... wow. But how old is the dog, did they do bloodwork (which should always be done prior to placing a dog under anesthesia.) you are charged for time the pet is under... tools used, and to be cleaned, the time for the tech as they have the patient’s life in their hands as they monitor the dog.

still...:shocking: on the bill... sounds like an er bill :killingme

as for the 168 bill.... thats is fair.. and yes you do need to go back and recheck. I dealt with an ear infection in two dogs for almost a month. (Dr. had them on a crappy ear med... thats why)

He's 9. The did the whole Senior panel bloodwork so the first visit was a litlte over $200. We had taken him in because he had a loose tooth. They said they were probably going to pull 5 teeth. They pulled 12 so it took a long time and was more expensive because the condition of his gums, they said. That was an $1100+ bill. WAY off from the estimate.

And you know, I don't mind paying for good quality work. I want my dog to be treated the bestest, so I didn't complain too much about the dental bill. Service cost is hard to figure out. What got me was her trying to sell me stuff again and then "prescribing" stuff that was marked up double - and I didn't really need a prescription for in the first place. I feel like that was some shady stuff. If I had seen or suspected that prior then I would never have let her touch my dog. My fears that I just paid an unreasonable amount of money for the dental have pretty much been confirmed by this most recent visit. If that's the kind of thing she does to her clients then I don't feel comfortable leaving my dog in her care.

Oh, and they were supposed to call me back to discuss this with me this morning. No one called.

Sometimes you calm down a little after time passes but I think I'm even more upset.

Our boxer used to get routine ear infections, even after being syrum tested. Our vet recommended a keto conozole ear flush treatment(amazon.com) for cleaning and it managed to keep her yeast under control just fine after the initial treatment.

He's 9. The did the whole Senior panel bloodwork so the first visit was a litlte over $200. We had taken him in because he had a loose tooth. They said they were probably going to pull 5 teeth. They pulled 12 so it took a long time and was more expensive because the condition of his gums, they said. That was an $1100+ bill. WAY off from the estimate.

And you know, I don't mind paying for good quality work. I want my dog to be treated the bestest, so I didn't complain too much about the dental bill. Service cost is hard to figure out. What got me was her trying to sell me stuff again and then "prescribing" stuff that was marked up double - and I didn't really need a prescription for in the first place. I feel like that was some shady stuff. If I had seen or suspected that prior then I would never have let her touch my dog. My fears that I just paid an unreasonable amount of money for the dental have pretty much been confirmed by this most recent visit. If that's the kind of thing she does to her clients then I don't feel comfortable leaving my dog in her care.

Oh, and they were supposed to call me back to discuss this with me this morning. No one called.

Sometimes you calm down a little after time passes but I think I'm even more upset.

I could see them giving her pain meds and antibiotic..... but the main point is ..IF THEY had taken time to have someone call and say.. "hey"... this is whats they see.. and it will be a little more.. I would be ok with that.

but as far as the price over all...it is a little high for a regular practice...

Im gonna send you a pm

Our boxer used to get routine ear infections, even after being syrum tested. Our vet recommended a keto conozole ear flush treatment(amazon.com) for cleaning and it managed to keep her yeast under control just fine after the initial treatment.

they make that in a shampoo as well!!! its great for smelly hounds.. takes the cheetos smell away!! :killingme

They're on my poo-poo list now so I thought I'd share my experience...

Sorry to hear about your (and others) experience. Yes, Breton Bay does charge more then the rest, etc. However, Dr. Fenwick is simply top notch in my books. Why? Our Bechon was in a lot of "discomfort" in her hinquarters. She would "scream" (once in a while) when jumping on the couch, etc. We took her to numerous vet's (LaPlata, Waldorf, etc.) over the years while her hinquarters got worse. I won't go into the medical stuff but her hips were disingrating and it was going bone against bone. All the other doctor's were trying this and that type of medication. You haven't lived until you constantly pay for visits, medication, etc. at your expense and nothing changes. But, you do what you have to do. We finally decided to give Dr. Fenwick a shot. Dr. Fenwick was the first Vet to actually diagnose and provide medication that actually relieved the pain - period. Our little baby lived many more painless years because of Dr. Fenwick. So, complain about the high prices that Breton Bay charges - I would willingly continued paying it so our little Bichon could live a few more painless years.

Sometimes you can help yeasty ears by switching foods and adding a probiotic.
I am writing about the Human Animal, and Yeast. This might not apply to Dogs, or Cats. We are all warm Blooded, so it might apply. In Humans, the over-abundance of Yeast can mean several different things, but the top reason for us, is diet. In Humans, it can also mean Diabetes. With Animals, I would say that it's Food Allergies. It could be the Corn, or the other junk that is added to the less expensive Foods. Some Dogs are allergic to the Chicken. My Dog was an itchy Dog. We went Grain-Free, and she no longer itches. Try switching foods, and give it a couple of months, and see what happens. Friend's of ours have Labs that constantly had Ear Infections, and they switched to Taste of the Wild. Neither one of those dogs have had an ear infection since, and it's been years!!

I am writing about the Human Animal, and Yeast. This might not apply to Dogs, or Cats. We are all warm Blooded, so it might apply. In Humans, the over-abundance of Yeast can mean several different things, but the top reason for us, is diet. In Humans, it can also mean Diabetes. With Animals, I would say that it's Food Allergies. It could be the Corn, or the other junk that is added to the less expensive Foods. Some Dogs are allergic to the Chicken. My Dog was an itchy Dog. We went Grain-Free, and she no longer itches. Try switching foods, and give it a couple of months, and see what happens. Friend's of ours have Labs that constantly had Ear Infections, and they switched to Taste of the Wild. Neither one of those dogs have had an ear infection since, and it's been years!!

taste of the wild was recalled..you can get something that is similar called earthborn now...i get the lamb version. i was told once its recalled to never go back to it again by my vet. She told me now that i switched to stay with what she is on now and don't go back once they start getting the food back on the shelf as it messes up the dogs stomach with playing musical foods.

taste of the wild was recalled..you can get something that is similar called earthborn now...i get the lamb version. i was told once its recalled to never go back to it again by my vet. She told me now that i switched to stay with what she is on now and don't go back once they start getting the food back on the shelf as it messes up the dogs stomach with playing musical foods.
I am aware of the recall, but I like to think the Company that makes it, will TRY to do better in the future. I got some samples of the Earthborne, and my Pup likes it, but I found that she likes Innova Salmon & Herring more. She doesn't have any Belly Issues, so I switch often to give her something different, but I stick with the Grain-Free foods.

I've heard good things about the vet in Callaway too.

They're salesmen, too. Dr. Shad is okay, but the other two come up with all sorts of crazy crap to jack you out of money. I'd change but it doesn't sound like the rest are any better.

One question, though: if heartworm medication is supposed to be given once a month, every month, why is it only available with a prescription? I suspect it's just more bullchit so vet's can make money.

They're salesmen, too. Dr. Shad is okay, but the other two come up with all sorts of crazy crap to jack you out of money. I'd change but it doesn't sound like the rest are any better.

One question, though: if heartworm medication is supposed to be given once a month, every month, why is it only available with a prescription? I suspect it's just more bullchit so vet's can make money.
Typically, prior to prescribing a heartworm preventive, the veterinarian will perform a simple heartworm test to make sure your dog doesn't already have adult heartworms. It is not necessary to test very young puppies prior to starting preventives since it takes approximately six months for adult heartworms to develop to adulthood in a dog. If the pet is free of heartworms, prevention is prescribed. Giving preventives to dogs infected with heartworms can lead to rare but possibly severe reactions that could be harmful or even fatal to the dog.

American Heartworm Society | FAQs (http://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-owner-resources/faqs.html#q9)

American Heartworm Society | FAQs (http://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-owner-resources/faqs.html#q9)

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.

Girl.... we will have a talk on Friday!!!!!

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.
Do they do that? I've always just gone in and said I needed some more heartworm meds, they check his chart to make sure he's been tested within the past two years and hand them over.

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.

I get a years worth of heartworm preventative at a time at the annual visit.

If I can't afford getting a Year's supply of Preventative during my Pup's appointment, I just go in when I need it, and they hand it over too, just like Nickel. Are you sure they make Apollo come in every 3 months? WOW!! I've never heard of that! Oh, by the way..I love Apollo's Life Vest!!

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.

I sent you a PM.

I sent you a PM.

:smack:

Im gonna give her the low down this eve!! :love:

Everyone should do some research on Natural Healing for their pets. There are so many things you can do yourself instead of taking them to the vet and spending so much money. You would be surprised at some of the things you can cure with supplemets and herbs. I use them all the time.:yay:

:confused:...you needed a vet to sign for a wheelchair??? I have purchased two chairs in my day.. and never had to have a vet sign anything!!

Did when I needed one at least the company I delt with did..needed a paper filled out.

How are you applying this remedy and for how long? I ask as I have been dealing with Vets and high bills thanks to my Lab having an ear infection 2-3 times a year.

I use it regularly on mine couple times a week and especially after baths...Wont help infections per say just yeast (changes the PH in the ear to keep yeast from growing)

Right, but if he is heartworm free and taking a preventative, why would I need a prescription for it? He goes to the vet for annual checkups anyway. I should just be able to get some heartworm pills when I run out instead of having to pay for a doctor visit every three months.


LOL you dont need a script if you know where to go...and other then buying you can make your own lol I can do 50 yes 50 100 lb dogs or a 100 lb dog 50 times(months).........................for $29

Everyone should do some research on Natural Healing for their pets. There are so many things you can do yourself instead of taking them to the vet and spending so much money. You would be surprised at some of the things you can cure with supplemets and herbs. I use them all the time.:yay:
Can you share any of what you use, and do with the Herbs for Pets? I'd be interested in knowing what can be done for Fleas, Itchy-Dog, Stinky Dog, or whatever...