A recent news story about locals being too under educated to take advantage of defense jobs at Pax river sparked my curiosity. Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college? St. Mary's College doesn't fulfill this function. Why don't we make expand it's mission to better support the local economy? The SMHEC is a nice idea, but hasn't been wildly successful at closing the gap for the community. I heard a rumor that CSM tried years ago to become a 4 year college, but was unsuccessful. I graduated from UMUC. Online is nice, but brick & mortar has many advantages.

This is a dumb post. St. Mary's College is a 4 year college.

Yea - but it's a college for kids with rich parents. Not too many working adults could afford the tuition there. It's the most expensive state school in Md. and one of the most expensive state schools in the country.

Seriously? Exactly how much do you know about SMC. Very few of the students come from what I would consider "rich" families. And the tuition isn't that much higher than other md schools.

Yea - but it's a college for kids with rich parents. Not too many working adults could afford the tuition there. It's the most expensive state school in Md. and one of the most expensive state schools in the country.

I went to St. Mary's College, and my parents were FAR from rich! We made enought to get by. I had to take out student loans and work full time while attending school full time to get through. I know a lot of other students who did the same...

Are we really sure a college education isn't overkill to be qualified for some the PAX River jobs in question? Perhaps a solid high school education for more candidates would help the situation.

Seriously? Exactly how much do you know about SMC. Very few of the students come from what I would consider "rich" families. And the tuition isn't that much higher than other md schools.

It's $26,000 a year to attend SMC and live on campus. I guess it's up to each individual to decide if that's a lot. Frostburg State is about $15,000 a year to attend school and live on campus.

Most local kids don't want to go to a local college - they want to go off far away where their parents won't know what they're up to. SMC is a great school but it is very competitive so if you don't have the grades and the SAT scores, forget about it. (SMC Alumni here - from just before they started to be an "honors" college.)

I believe an engineer should have an engineering degree. I don't fault Pax for demanding that. I don't think its necessary for a secretary, admin asst, or any number of other admin positions to have a four year degree. I know kids coming out of high school FBLA programs that could run circles around some college grads when it comes to appropriate office procedure.

Going to college for a degree is a choice. Having another college locally will not change that choice. If someone really wants that education they will find a way.

Pax is investing in the "homegrown engineer" program, where they are working with CSM and UMUC to educate and groom engineers locally. My son is part of the program. He's doing it so that he has a guaranteed job when he's done with college.

This is a dumb post. St. Mary's College is a 4 year college.

Perhaps you missed the point. Nope. You clearly missed the point. Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college that helps locals benefit from the lucrative jobs at Pax River? St. Mary's College has high tuition and a liberal arts concentration. So, now, if you don't mind, go back to the kids table, the adults are talking.

Yea - but it's a college for kids with rich parents. Not too many working adults could afford the tuition there. It's the most expensive state school in Md. and one of the most expensive state schools in the country.

Exactly! It is primarily liberal arts and does not support the technology driven defense industry that is the county's chief economic engine.

Seriously? Exactly how much do you know about SMC. Very few of the students come from what I would consider "rich" families. And the tuition isn't that much higher than other md schools.

The socioeconomic argument aside. SMC is a liberal arts school. It does not help local folk brush up their skill sets to get jobs at Pax River, which is the biggest employer in the county. The defense industry needs engineers...not Philosophy majors.

My sister has an Art degree from SMC and works in the DoD. :shrug:

Are we really sure a college education isn't overkill to be qualified for some the PAX River jobs in question? Perhaps a solid high school education for more candidates would help the situation.

I agree that in some cases education can be over emphasized, but when it comes to engineering, it probably is appropriate. Professional certifications are an alternative, but many of those require formal education. So, it all seems to go in a circle...back to a formal education. Personally, I gained a lot from undergrad and graduate school, but do concede that formal education isn't perfect. I would like to see a bigger investment than the SMHEC to help "school up" the locals, so everyone can benefit from the biggest economic driver in the county.

"Going to college for a degree is a choice. Having another college locally will not change that choice. If someone really wants that education they will find a way."

I agree with much of what you write, but I'm talking more about adult education. Specifically, helping local adults tool up or transition to the lucrative jobs in defense. I graduated from UMUC. It is a good school. They do have a presence at the SMHEC, but I think the county would really benefit from a larger footprint.

Perhaps you missed the point. Nope. You clearly missed the point. Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college that helps locals benefit from the lucrative jobs at Pax River? St. Mary's College has high tuition and a liberal arts concentration. So, now, if you don't mind, go back to the kids table, the adults are talking.

There's this thing called the internet and on this internet, you can sign up for online college degree programs.

If you can't afford to go to St. Mary's College (most people can't) and have exceeded what CSM can provide, I'm sure you'd find this option would fit most peoples' needs.

There's this thing called the internet and on this internet, you can sign up for online college degree programs.

If you can't afford to go to St. Mary's College (most people can't) and have exceeded what CSM can provide, I'm sure you'd find this option would fit most peoples' needs.

Tell more about this internet of which you speak?:sarcasm: Does it live in the magic talking box? :sarcasm: Actually, I did my graduate degree mostly online. It's a less forgiving learning environment. Bricks and mortar schools offer the opportunity for the face to face exchange of ideas, teamwork, networking, and brushing up on social skills. Online is good for self-actualized learners. Online does have a place at the table, but B&M often have a research orientation...huge advantage. Consider the case of UMUC's cybersecurity degree, which is good, versus UMBC's which is great. The value added comes from UMBC's status as research institution. Before the wolves get all hopped up here, I graduated from UMUC and it is an excellent school. It would be better if it had a research emphasis.

Tell more about this internet of which you speak?:sarcasm: Does it live in the magic talking box? :sarcasm: Actually, I did my graduate degree mostly online. It's a less forgiving learning environment. Bricks and mortar schools offer the opportunity for the face to face exchange of ideas, teamwork, networking, and brushing up on social skills. Online is good for self-actualized learners. Online does have a place at the table, but B&M often have a research orientation...huge advantage. Consider the case of UMUC's cybersecurity degree, which is good, versus UMBC's which is great. The value added comes from UMBC's status as research institution. Before the wolves get all hopped up here, I graduated from UMUC and it is an excellent school. It would be better if it had a research emphasis.

so basically, SMC isn't good enough, SMHEC isn't good enough, CSM isn't good enough, UMUC (and the whole host other schools within 1-2 hour drive) aren't good enough, online isn't good enough.

Seems like there are LOTS of options for locals who wish to further their education. What exactly are you looking for? A major 4 year university with a research emphasis in the middle of St. Mary's County? good luck.

so basically, SMC isn't good enough, SMHEC isn't good enough, CSM isn't good enough, UMUC (and the whole host other schools within 1-2 hour drive) aren't good enough, online isn't good enough.

Seems like there are LOTS of options for locals who wish to further their education. What exactly are you looking for? A major 4 year university with a research emphasis in the middle of St. Mary's County? good luck.

It needs to be a Harvard-caliber school on a CSM-caliber budget. :rolleyes:

so basically, SMC isn't good enough, SMHEC isn't good enough, CSM isn't good enough, UMUC (and the whole host other schools within 1-2 hour drive) aren't good enough, online isn't good enough.

Seems like there are LOTS of options for locals who wish to further their education. What exactly are you looking for? A major 4 year university with a research emphasis in the middle of St. Mary's County? good luck.

Your self esteem issues aside, why not? Ever been past UM Eastern Shore? Not exactly in the middle of a metropolis? Why can't CSM be elevated to a 4 year institution within the UM system? It serves more than 300,000 people in Calvert, Charles, and St. Mary's. How about SMC creating an adult learning annex? How about UMUC increasing it's footprint? All of those are viable solutions that would help the locals benefit more from the available economic opportunities in the defense industry.

Yea - but it's a college for kids with rich parents. Not too many working adults could afford the tuition there. It's the most expensive state school in Md. and one of the most expensive state schools in the country.

Your better argument (even though wrong) would be St Marys doesn't offer any heavy science or engineering degrees which is what pax river needs and spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country.

Your argument is lost though because you can go to SMHEC and pick from several colleges that do, here, locally.

Johns Hopkins, UMUC, Old Dominion, George Washington..etc..etc..

"Going to college for a degree is a choice. Having another college locally will not change that choice. If someone really wants that education they will find a way."

I agree with much of what you write, but I'm talking more about adult education. Specifically, helping local adults tool up or transition to the lucrative jobs in defense. I graduated from UMUC. It is a good school. They do have a presence at the SMHEC, but I think the county would really benefit from a larger footprint.

Colleges are businesses, if there were students here to support a larger presence there would be.

I would agree that there is a huge lack of vocational schools here, and think CSM soul do very well expanding into vocational dress, plumbing, electrician, construction and automotive would be great. If I could find a way of get my electric poor plumbing certification, I haven't found a way to do it yet.

Your better argument (even though wrong) would be St Marys doesn't offer any heavy science or engineering degrees which is what pax river needs and spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country.

Your argument is lost though because you can go to SMHEC and pick from several colleges that do, here, locally.

Johns Hopkins, UMUC, Old Dominion, George Washington..etc..etc..

Makes sense, but do the locals go to the SMHEC? If so, according to the article in the Enterprise, why are so few benefitting? Not to be argumentative, but since you brought it up, why does Pax River "...spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country..." if what you assert is true? If the SMHEC is successful and my assertion wrong, please explain the gap in opportunities?

Makes sense, but do the locals go to the SMHEC? If so, according to the article in the Enterprise, why are so few benefitting? Not to be argumentative, but since you brought it up, why does Pax River "...spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country..." if what you assert is true? If the SMHEC is successful and my assertion wrong, please explain the gap in opportunities?

No, because they think their only choice is St Marys or leave town, they'd rather go to Towson, then get a local engineering degree from JHU.

Makes sense, but do the locals go to the SMHEC? If so, according to the article in the Enterprise, why are so few benefitting? Not to be argumentative, but since you brought it up, why does Pax River "...spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country..." if what you assert is true? If the SMHEC is successful and my assertion wrong, please explain the gap in opportunities?

Well for one there is a huge difference between a BS or MS you can get locally than one you can get from a large school that is designated a research 1 university. I know a lot of people don't want to hear it but these so called "working masters degrees" are second rate. Pay your fee, get your B.

In undergrad I learned as much from student competitions against other schools from across the country as I did in the classroom and lab.

No, because they think their only choice is St Marys or leave town, they'd rather go to Towson, then get a local engineering degree from JHU.

Whyso Bob? I ask because I am very slowly working that latter route. Might be retirement age before I'm done, but I'm working it:)

Well for one there is a huge difference between a BS or MS you can get locally than one you can get from a large school that is designated a research 1 university. I know a lot of people don't want to hear it but these so called "working masters degrees" are second rate. Pay your fee, get your B.

Really? I went to Florida Institute of Technology here to get my master's degree. It was a mixture of classroom and distance learning. Believe me, I worked my ass off for it over 5 years and in no way to I think my degree is "second rate." Maybe there are other colleges who are churning out degrees for the $$$ but FIT gave me a heck of an education and was worth every penny. I'd love to hear what others think about the BS/MS programs down here.

In undergrad I learned as much from student competitions against other schools from across the country as I did in the classroom and lab.
And I'm sorry for your experience as mine has been the opposite. I had some dynamite teachers who challenged me to not only learn but GROW as I pursued my degree. And my undergrad was with UMUC.

Whyso Bob? I ask because I am very slowly working that latter route. Might be retirement age before I'm done, but I'm working it:)

I'm thinking because most people don't even know about SMHEC. I've been going to SMHEC for almost 10 years, and have referred about teen people there that weren't aware.

My first program I was in there most were local to PAX, program I'm in now only two of us were local. Had students from Dahlgren DC, everywhere but here.

Well for one there is a huge difference between a BS or MS you can get locally than one you can get from a large school that is designated a research 1 university. I know a lot of people don't want to hear it but these so called "working masters degrees" are second rate. Pay your fee, get your B.

In undergrad I learned as much from student competitions against other schools from across the country as I did in the classroom and lab.

I dare you to look at my MS and see if you can tell the difference between the'local' Johns Hopkins or the"real" Johns Hopkins..

Or my PD from the 'local' GWU our the'real' GWU.

I've been going to SMHEC for four years. One masters down and another on the way followed by my DSc.

Bob posting on here some years ago sparked my interest.

Your self esteem issues aside, why not? Ever been past UM Eastern Shore? Not exactly in the middle of a metropolis? Why can't CSM be elevated to a 4 year institution within the UM system? It serves more than 300,000 people in Calvert, Charles, and St. Mary's. How about SMC creating an adult learning annex? How about UMUC increasing it's footprint? All of those are viable solutions that would help the locals benefit more from the available economic opportunities in the defense industry.

How about the "locals" take advantage of the options that are available before saying they need more options? If the smhec programs were full with a wait list every session, I might concede that you have a valid point but clearly the demand doesn't even fill the current supply. Yet you seem to think we need more?

Well for one there is a huge difference between a BS or MS you can get locally than one you can get from a large school that is designated a research 1 university. I know a lot of people don't want to hear it but these so called "working masters degrees" are second rate. Pay your fee, get your B.

In undergrad I learned as much from student competitions against other schools from across the country as I did in the classroom and lab.

I agree. Being a research schools carries more weight. Although, I did my MBA online and it had it's good points. Many of the other students owned small businesses, were CEO's & COO's of sizeable operations, and the professors all worked at the executive level in big organizations. I appreciated their real world experience. Straight career academic types lack creditability with me. However, the fact remains there is a prestige difference between the AACSB and ACBSP. The biggest difference is the price tag, so pay to play works both ways. Trust me, my degree was academically rigorous and many of my professors also taught at major B&M universities. My school has the ACBSP, which most reputable schools have, but is designated a research university by Carnegie. In general, it is a solid degree and the academic rigor was more than appropriate.

No, because they think their only choice is St Marys or leave town, they'd rather go to Towson, then get a local engineering degree from JHU.

What about working adults? For example, recently discharged vets living in the area or people affected by the economy upgrading their skill sets. Your point is valid for kids. I have no reason to doubt it. How does a bright guy or girl trying to improve their lot in life get the degree they need to benefit from the biggest economic driver in the county (defense industry)? For profits are expensive and have tragically low graduation rates...trust me I graduated from one. They are definitely not a route I would recommend. There is nothing wrong with them academically. They just have merciless business practices that prey on the students, ie continous enrollment requirement, hidden fees, and bait & switch tuition (mine went from 850 a class to more than 2000 in a few years).

Really? I went to Florida Institute of Technology here to get my master's degree. It was a mixture of classroom and distance learning. Believe me, I worked my ass off for it over 5 years and in no way to I think my degree is "second rate." Maybe there are other colleges who are churning out degrees for the $$$ but FIT gave me a heck of an education and was worth every penny. I'd love to hear what others think about the BS/MS programs down here.


And I'm sorry for your experience as mine has been the opposite. I had some dynamite teachers who challenged me to not only learn but GROW as I pursued my degree. And my undergrad was with UMUC.

I agree. I did my undergrad with UMUC...definitely not second rate. I did my MBA with Northcentral University. It was academically rigorous and very writing intensive, but expensive. The professors taught at University of Chicago, LSU, and the Naval Post Grad School to name a few. So, I don't feel insecure about the worth of the degree, it was just way more expensive than a UM school would have been.

I dare you to look at my MS and see if you can tell the difference between the'local' Johns Hopkins or the"real" Johns Hopkins..

Or my PD from the 'local' GWU our the'real' GWU.

With schools like MIT and Harvard in the beginning stages of online education...it won't be long until it no longer matters. The online is a useful and proven learning method.

How about the "locals" take advantage of the options that are available before saying they need more options? If the smhec programs were full with a wait list every session, I might concede that you have a valid point but clearly the demand doesn't even fill the current supply. Yet you seem to think we need more?

CSM does have the demand. Expand that model by making it a 4 year college. Expand the model with the demand and unplug the SMHEC if it isn't carrying it's weight. Also, what's the big deal about making SMC teach adults and support the local economic engine by training folks? One reason I did not choose the SMHEC for my MBA was the programs were too constrained, expensive (well I got taken to the cleaners anyway), and mostly offered on weekends. Also, I work in DC so it was about 20 miles in the wrong direction. It was not very well publicized. UMUC was the best option there for me, but didn't offer all of the classes for my program.

Really? I went to Florida Institute of Technology here to get my master's degree. It was a mixture of classroom and distance learning. Believe me, I worked my ass off for it over 5 years and in no way to I think my degree is "second rate." Maybe there are other colleges who are churning out degrees for the $$$ but FIT gave me a heck of an education and was worth every penny. I'd love to hear what others think about the BS/MS programs down here.


And I'm sorry for your experience as mine has been the opposite. I had some dynamite teachers who challenged me to not only learn but GROW as I pursued my degree. And my undergrad was with UMUC.

My classroom experience was great, the student competition experience was however incredible as well as the two years worth of research that went into my thesis. Im sorry, no amount of classes, no matter how great they are can compare to that.

I dare you to look at my MS and see if you can tell the difference between the'local' Johns Hopkins or the"real" Johns Hopkins..

Or my PD from the 'local' GWU our the'real' GWU.

Did you so a thesis and dissertation?

My classroom experience was great, the student competition experience was however incredible as well as the two years worth of research that went into my thesis. Im sorry, no amount of classes, no matter how great they are can compare to that.

School is what you make of it. It is no different than grades 9-12, you only get out of it as much as you put in.

Did you so a thesis and dissertation?

I had to (thesis), and I know from talking to Bob he at the time was working on one.

The socioeconomic argument aside. SMC is a liberal arts school. It does not help local folk brush up their skill sets to get jobs at Pax River, which is the biggest employer in the county. The defense industry needs engineers...not Philosophy majors.

:bs:

St MArys has a really good science department and i work with about 15 SMCM grads who have chemisty, biology and math degrees. On top of that, one of the groups in the building next to me has about 50 folks with phsycology degrees.

besides, there are lots of jobs that dont require engineering degrees on the PAX instalation.

Your better argument (even though wrong) would be St Marys doesn't offer any heavy science or engineering degrees which is what pax river needs and spend huge amounts of money to recruit from all over the country.

Your argument is lost though because you can go to SMHEC and pick from several colleges that do, here, locally.

Johns Hopkins, UMUC, Old Dominion, George Washington..etc..etc..

If you want to argue academics, go for it. My comments about SMC are soley about cost and therefore, not really subjective or easily "lost".

Did you so a thesis and dissertation?

No, that's why it's a PD and not a PhD.. was in the PhD program but couldn't get the disseration phase done ontime.

Still working on one last research paper for my PD, and then will have to find something else to do with my free time.

A recent news story about locals being too under educated to take advantage of defense jobs at Pax river sparked my curiosity. Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college? St. Mary's College doesn't fulfill this function. Why don't we make expand it's mission to better support the local economy? The SMHEC is a nice idea, but hasn't been wildly successful at closing the gap for the community. I heard a rumor that CSM tried years ago to become a 4 year college, but was unsuccessful. I graduated from UMUC. Online is nice, but brick & mortar has many advantages.

Probably the simplest answer is there not enough money for another public college. Public colleges get money from the state. Ever since 2007/2008 when the recession started, tax revenue is down and the current public universities and colleges in the state are causing a raucus because their funding is going down so they have salary freezes and lay offs and are increasing tuition.

In addition to the state funding a public college receives you would get expensive start up costs with building the campus and setting up an administrative setup for a couple of years before there are any students are tuition.

I'd imagine from a dollars and cents perspective, if SOMD gets a four year college it will be CSM converting to a four year college.

I think that you are correct to say St. Mary's College is not oriented towards adult education and it geared towards the liberal arts. Its a good college though for what it is-- a liberal arts college geared towards traditional undergraduates.

The University of Maryland, College Park is another good college. Like St. Mary's it more focused on the traditional undergrad, but unlike St. Mary's it has strong science, applied science majors, and finance degrees (I was surprised to see St. Mary's College doesn't have an Accounting degree for example)

No, that's why it's a PD and not a PhD.. was in the PhD program but couldn't get the disseration phase done ontime.

Still working on one last research paper for my PD, and then will have to find something else to do with my free time.

I'm sure your classes are equilivant, if you are going to look for a new job after your finished you may find some "discrimination" because of the missing h.

My friend applied for a PhD required job and at the interview they were shocked that he hadn't done a post doc yet. They had just assumed that anyone applying for that job would have also done a post doc, kinda weird that they didn't list that as a requirement. He did two years of post doc and then got hired by that company.

Are we really sure a college education isn't overkill to be qualified for some the PAX River jobs in question? Perhaps a solid high school education for more candidates would help the situation.

A lot of governemnt jobs, including those filled by CSS, require a degree. Some require specific degrees, others just a degree. Some will allow the applicant to subsitute experience for the degree - but that's hard to do if you are looking to get into the field.

First question: WHO IS GOING TO PAY for this 4 year school?

You can use CSM to earn credits towards a BS/BA degree. You can take classes on line from a number of schools, including U of MD.
Several schools offer classes, either at SMHEC or at the Frank Knox building.
Most of these are targeted at technical degrees.

Bottom line, there is no need for a 4 year college or university in So. MD. The demand is just not there and it would be a huge burden on the taxpayer. But there are alternative. Lower cost alternatives.

Colleges are businesses, if there were students here to support a larger presence there would be.

I would agree that there is a huge lack of vocational schools here, and think CSM soul do very well expanding into vocational dress, plumbing, electrician, construction and automotive would be great. If I could find a way of get my electric poor plumbing certification, I haven't found a way to do it yet.

CSM has those programs and more:
Workforce Development - College of Southern Maryland (http://www.csmd.edu/WorkforceDevelopment/)
A little research never hurts...

And CSM never intended to become a 4-year institution, it serves it's purpose quite well. Many articulation agreements with 4-year institutions.

Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college?

Put it on the list. :coffee:

The Patuxent Partnership - TPP (http://www.paxpartnership.org/index.cfm?action=NWD&NW_ID=309&NC_ID=-1)

Probably the simplest answer is there not enough money for another public college. Public colleges get money from the state. Ever since 2007/2008 when the recession started, tax revenue is down and the current public universities and colleges in the state are causing a raucus because their funding is going down so they have salary freezes and lay offs and are increasing tuition.

In addition to the state funding a public college receives you would get expensive start up costs with building the campus and setting up an administrative setup for a couple of years before there are any students are tuition.

I'd imagine from a dollars and cents perspective, if SOMD gets a four year college it will be CSM converting to a four year college.

I think that you are correct to say St. Mary's College is not oriented towards adult education and it geared towards the liberal arts. Its a good college though for what it is-- a liberal arts college geared towards traditional undergraduates.

The University of Maryland, College Park is another good college. Like St. Mary's it more focused on the traditional undergrad, but unlike St. Mary's it has strong science, applied science majors, and finance degrees (I was surprised to see St. Mary's College doesn't have an Accounting degree for example)

Thank you! I just wonder, CSM is a good school and has about 23,000 students. About 9,000 of those are listed as undergrads on wiki (I know not a reliable source but this entry isn't peer reviewed). With that kind of demand, it just seems like something will have to give. That's a lot of folks to migrate to other parts of the state to close the deal on a 4 year degree. Regarding the economic climate, I know Hoyer & comapany have done a good job developing the base and it's mission. Local representation may not always be this influential or effective. I just worry about keeping St. Mary's competitive. I lived near Ft. Dix, Lakehurst, Willow Grove, & the Philly navy yards when they were in their prime. Obviously, things did not always stay the same for them. Staying competitive by having a strong, educated, and agile educational resource can make the difference.

My degrees are not in engineering and I have a great job. I got my MS completely online but I worked my rear off for it. The online is not for someone who doesn't have self discipline.

A lot of governemnt jobs, including those filled by CSS, require a degree. Some require specific degrees, others just a degree. Some will allow the applicant to subsitute experience for the degree - but that's hard to do if you are looking to get into the field.

First question: WHO IS GOING TO PAY for this 4 year school?

You can use CSM to earn credits towards a BS/BA degree. You can take classes on line from a number of schools, including U of MD.
Several schools offer classes, either at SMHEC or at the Frank Knox building.
Most of these are targeted at technical degrees.

Bottom line, there is no need for a 4 year college or university in So. MD. The demand is just not there and it would be a huge burden on the taxpayer. But there are alternative. Lower cost alternatives.

CSM has 23,000 students. 9,000 are undergrads. A demand clearly exists. CSM agreements are usually only good for the first 60 credits. As for WHO PAYS, we already pay, but we don't get the benefits. Apparently, according to other entries on the chain, the SMHEC is being under used. My opinion is a lack of marketing. I only found out about the place when I took a UMUC final there. Also, I've been in the county 20 years and have no idea where the Frank Knox building is at (I'm guessing Pax, which most don't have access to). We all pay taxes that go to SMC in a block grant each year. It's matter of demanding more for the money. Happens everyday in the government. Our taxes also support the UM system statewide.

CSM has 23,000 students. 9,000 are undergrads. A demand clearly exists. CSM agreements are usually only good for the first 60 credits. As for WHO PAYS, we already pay, but we don't get the benefits. Apparently, according to other entries on the chain, the SMHEC is being under used. My opinion is a lack of marketing. I only found out about the place when I took a UMUC final there. Also, I've been in the county 20 years and have no idea where the Frank Knox building is at (I'm guessing Pax, which most don't have access to). We all pay taxes that go to SMC in a block grant each year. It's matter of demanding more for the money. Happens everyday in the government. Our taxes also support the UM system statewide.

Frank Knox is the building out front of Gate 2, use to be an old school.

What the SMHEC has is fairly limited and targeted.

CSM has 23,000 students. 9,000 are undergrads. A demand clearly exists. CSM agreements are usually only good for the first 60 credits. As for WHO PAYS, we already pay, but we don't get the benefits. Apparently, according to other entries on the chain, the SMHEC is being under used. My opinion is a lack of marketing. I only found out about the place when I took a UMUC final there. Also, I've been in the county 20 years and have no idea where the Frank Knox building is at (I'm guessing Pax, which most don't have access to). We all pay taxes that go to SMC in a block grant each year. It's matter of demanding more for the money. Happens everyday in the government. Our taxes also support the UM system statewide.
CSM articulations allow students to complete the first 60-65 credits locally (and more cheaply) and then transfer all those credits seamlessly to the partner four-year school. However, they only exist in certain academic areas/degrees and with certain transfer institutions. I think the point of the article the OP mentioned is that SMHEC is great and all, but it mostly offers graduate level degrees and coursework - it doesn't really help that much if you don't already have your undergrad degree. There are efforts underway to try to offer more undergrad/bachelor's completion programs there. I'm not sure the CSM administration is opposed to seeking four-year status (at least for certain programs) but I am sure that all the other four-years in MD would kick and scream and do everything they can to block such a transition. The MHEC (MD Higher Education Commission) program approval process allows institutions to object to and often block proposals by other institutions for duplication of effort. They just have to argue that the new program would have a substantial negative effect on existing programs.

Frank Knox is the building out front of Gate 2, use to be an old school.

What the SMHEC has is fairly limited and targeted.

Thank you! I'll check it out. I'm shopping for a second graduate degree. It would be nice to do it in the county.

CSM has those programs and more:
Workforce Development - College of Southern Maryland (http://www.csmd.edu/WorkforceDevelopment/)
A little research never hurts...

Actually you're right..

But a "helper" is not the same thing as a certified Electrician, or Certified Plumber, or Certified HVAC Technician..

They also (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) don't offer ANY professional certifications through part time or night/week-end programs..


So again I say "This county need a GOOD Vocational College."

Actually you're right..

But a "helper" is not the same thing as a certified Electrician, or Certified Plumber, or Certified HVAC Technician..

They also (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) don't offer ANY professional certifications through part time or night/week-end programs..


So again I say "This county need a GOOD Vocational College."

People also need to get over the stigma of vocational school, contrary what liberal education tells us not everybody is cut out for college but still should have a useful skill. The world needs plumbers, welders, machinists etc.

Perhaps you missed the point. Nope. You clearly missed the point.

There was no point to miss.

Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college?

Typical dumbass newbie with no reading or writing comprehension. Maybe you should have spent some time at that 4 year college in SOMD.

There was no point to miss.



Typical dumbass newbie with no reading or writing comprehension. Maybe you should have spent some time at that 4 year college in SOMD.

You define pointless...

The socioeconomic argument aside. SMC is a liberal arts school. It does not help local folk brush up their skill sets to get jobs at Pax River, which is the biggest employer in the county. The defense industry needs engineers...not Philosophy majors.

My sister has an Art degree from SMC and works in the DoD. :shrug:

And I have a psych. degree and work at Pax. Plus, I can point you in the direction of plenty of other SMC alumni at Pax. :lmao:

fatratcat, I get your point but you may need to investigate more about SMC and Pax. You're correct in saying that SMC leans towards the liberal arts, but:

1. It isn't a school for rich kids, or I wouldn't have gone there. Actual rich kids at Ivy league schools would laugh at the idea that SMC is for them.

2. They offer some strong hard science majors. Math, chemistry, biology.

3. Pax has more than just engineering jobs available. Acquisition and finance jobs abound, and the only engineering skill they require is starting your car in the morning to drive there.

I agree that it would be nice if a four-year school focusing on engineering was in the SOMD area, but College Park and UMBC are just up the road and I'm sure a school that large is going to offer some course of study that would lead to good employment back home at Pax River.

And I have a psych. degree and work at Pax. Plus, I can point you in the direction of plenty of other SMC alumni at Pax. :lmao:

fatratcat, I get your point but you may need to investigate more about SMC and Pax. You're correct in saying that SMC leans towards the liberal arts, but:

1. It isn't a school for rich kids, or I wouldn't have gone there. Actual rich kids at Ivy league schools would laugh at the idea that SMC is for them.

2. They offer some strong hard science majors. Math, chemistry, biology.

3. Pax has more than just engineering jobs available. Acquisition and finance jobs abound, and the only engineering skill they require is starting your car in the morning to drive there.

I agree that it would be nice if a four-year school focusing on engineering was in the SOMD area, but College Park and UMBC are just up the road and I'm sure a school that large is going to offer some course of study that would lead to good employment back home at Pax River.

All good points. For the record, I am from the trailerhood and 26k a year plus diggs is the upper end of the socioeconomic scale. That's a lot of cabbage! SOMD is more than just Pax, but I see your point. The only knock I give SMC is taking tax money and not providing a broader range of services to support the economic engine that supplies the money. Respectfully, I don't agree with shipping folks more than a 100 miles round trip through DC traffic to go to UMBC or College Park. That kind of stuff is a deal killer for working adults. I believe that SOMD needs the capacity to supply it's own economic engine and that means the ability to provide transition options for the workforce through education. The only meaningful ways to accomplish that is to get UMUC to get a bigger footprint or SMC needs to expand it's mission or CSM needs 4 year status. I do respect your point of view and thank you for the thoughtful reply.

All good points. For the record, I am from the trailerhood and 26k a year plus diggs is the upper end of the socioeconomic scale. That's a lot of cabbage! SOMD is more than just Pax, but I see your point. The only knock I give SMC is taking tax money and not providing a broader range of services to support the economic engine that supplies the money. Respectfully, I don't agree with shipping folks more than a 100 miles round trip through DC traffic to go to UMBC or College Park. That kind of stuff is a deal killer for working adults. I believe that SOMD needs the capacity to supply it's own economic engine and that means the ability to provide transition options for the workforce through education. The only meaningful ways to accomplish that is to get UMUC to get a bigger footprint or SMC needs to expand it's mission or CSM needs 4 year status. I do respect your point of view and thank you for the thoughtful reply.

No problem, and I see what you mean about providing for working adults vs. full-time students living on campus. Those are completely different situations. When I spoke of College Park, etc. being "right up the road", I didn't mean commuting there, I just meant that they are in-state and a graduating high school senior shouldn't have too much objection to moving on campus. I've done the DC area commute - that would be cruel & unusual punishment from SOMD.

Actually you're right..

But a "helper" is not the same thing as a certified Electrician, or Certified Plumber, or Certified HVAC Technician..

They also (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) don't offer ANY professional certifications through part time or night/week-end programs..


So again I say "This county need a GOOD Vocational College."

My youngest son has been taking HVAC classes at night for the past two years. At the end of the 4 year program, he will be sitting for his journeyman's license. He's been working in HVAC for about 8 years and these classes have improved his skills so that he can branch out. I don't think he'd be called a "helper" per se as he does have certifications in several aspects of HVAC work.

As for a good 4 year school......my sister and I are alumni of St Mary's College. While I have a more liberal arts degree, history, I planned to become a teacher. SMC has an excellent program for teachers. My sister, on the other hand, has a dual degree in Math and Computers. She did work for one of the military contractors when she first graduated but has since moved on.

There are plenty of ways to obtain a degree if you are motivated enough. Sometimes, you just have to jump start that motivation.

No problem, and I see what you mean about providing for working adults vs. full-time students living on campus. Those are completely different situations. When I spoke of College Park, etc. being "right up the road", I didn't mean commuting there, I just meant that they are in-state and a graduating high school senior shouldn't have too much objection to moving on campus. I've done the DC area commute - that would be cruel & unusual punishment from SOMD.

Interestingly, my wife received a call from UMUC today about an open house at the SMHEC. Unfortunately, she is looking for either aHealth Care administration degree or RN to BSN program and UMUC doesn't have it. I think it is "Stevens College" or something like that has the RN to BSN, but it is prohibitively expensive and has inconvenient hours for working RN. Regardless, it was re-assuring as an alumni to see UMUC flying the flag. Honestly, a 4 year degree in Health Care Administration is the ideal goal. With the aging demographics, you would think there would be more programs. It's just a shame there is only one option and it doesn't fit. She might have to pay for the second-choice degree, which is unfortunate.

It's $26,000 a year to attend SMC and live on campus. I guess it's up to each individual to decide if that's a lot. Frostburg State is about $15,000 a year to attend school and live on campus.

Yeah, but the Green Door adds a bit of expense :cheers:

Frank Knox is the building out front of Gate 2, use to be an old school.

What the SMHEC has is fairly limited and targeted.

Also, Frank Knox is accessable, you do not enter the NAS to enter Frank Knox. Correct, both facilities target technical degree primarliy.

I don't thnk the OP realizes that this thing called the internuts is where a lot of education is being done today. A lot of universities offer online classes, not just UMUC.

I also don't think people realize that St. Mary's and Calvert are not the poplulation centers of the state. Sorry, but services tend to go where the population is.

If he wants a broad offering he needs to check out a large state school, like a Penn State or Ohio State, where there are 40,000 undergrads on campus. That's demand, and demand is what drives schools to offer courses / degrees.

While computers existed in the 60's, Computer Science didn't become a recognized major until probably the late 70's. In the trades, it wasn't a recgonized degree until even later. If you wanted to major in computer science you took classes from the Math, Electrical Engineering, and Physics departments and the Business School.

You need students to fill classes.

If you want to attend a 4 year school, well sorry, you might have to go to NOVA or outside SoMD.

Large land grant universities often don't get built in the population centers of a state. I can name a few off the top of my head that are in "the boonies", Virginia Tech, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, where you have a several hour drive after you land at the airport.

Also, Frank Knox is accessable, you do not enter the NAS to enter Frank Knox. Correct, both facilities target technical degree primarliy.

I don't thnk the OP realizes that this thing called the internuts is where a lot of education is being done today. A lot of universities offer online classes, not just UMUC.

I also don't think people realize that St. Mary's and Calvert are not the poplulation centers of the state. Sorry, but services tend to go where the population is.

If he wants a broad offering he needs to check out a large state school, like a Penn State or Ohio State, where there are 40,000 undergrads on campus. That's demand, and demand is what drives schools to offer courses / degrees.

While computers existed in the 60's, Computer Science didn't become a recognized major until probably the late 70's. In the trades, it wasn't a recgonized degree until even later. If you wanted to major in computer science you took classes from the Math, Electrical Engineering, and Physics departments and the Business School.

You need students to fill classes.

If you want to attend a 4 year school, well sorry, you might have to go to NOVA or outside SoMD.

You make some good points! Actually, the OP has an online MBA from Northcentral University. Not a bad school, but I am shopping for my second graduate degree and looking for a B&M experience. I demonstrated in my MBA that I am very capable of independent learning. I should also point out that for profit online schools are expensive and have some downside (ie graduation rates, recruiting scandals, and pushy financial aid folks).

I do take exception with the claim there is no demand for a 4 year college. CSM has 9,000 undergraduates and 29,000 students. The combined population of the 3 counties is more than 350,000 people. PG is only 500K and has Capitol College, UMUC, College Park, etc. I don't think it's out of line to ask for a 4 year college that supports the workforce.

Finally, despite the debate over costs. A four year degree is still the biggest determining factor in achieving economic success in America. On average, a person with a 4 year degree earns anywhere from half to a million dollars more in a lifetime than a person with a high school diploma (depending on which statistics and source you believe). Why on Earth wouldn't you want your community and children to have access to the single biggest determining factor in economic success?

Again, you don't have to build a new school. Expand SMC mission, make UMUC step up with a bigger footprint, or allow CSM to grant 4 year degrees. One more thought, publicize the Frank Knox deal and SMHEC, so they're not such a big secret!

Large land grant universities often don't get built in the population centers of a state. I can name a few off the top of my head that are in "the boonies", Virginia Tech, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, where you have a several hour drive after you land at the airport.

Let me add University of Maryland Eastern Shore, Frostburg, Salisbury...

Yeah, but the Green Door adds a bit of expense :cheers:

Tipping your bartenders well, and showing up 2 nights a week minimum, will keep your tabs very reasonable. (Monday pizza & pitcher is mandatory) It also helps when said bartenders are classmates.

Not that I would know anything about that. :whistle:

Let me add University of Maryland Eastern Shore, Frostburg, Salisbury...

Wouldnt exactly call those big schools, but they are respectable BS and BA schools.

Of note a friend of mine dropped out of Frostburg buisness because it wasn't accredited by some accrediation agency and transfered to VT, they didnt accept quite a few of his credits.

Also, Frank Knox is accessable, you do not enter the NAS to enter Frank Knox. Correct, both facilities target technical degree primarliy.

I don't thnk the OP realizes that this thing called the internuts is where a lot of education is being done today. A lot of universities offer online classes, not just UMUC.

I also don't think people realize that St. Mary's and Calvert are not the poplulation centers of the state. Sorry, but services tend to go where the population is.

If he wants a broad offering he needs to check out a large state school, like a Penn State or Ohio State, where there are 40,000 undergrads on campus. That's demand, and demand is what drives schools to offer courses / degrees.

While computers existed in the 60's, Computer Science didn't become a recognized major until probably the late 70's. In the trades, it wasn't a recgonized degree until even later. If you wanted to major in computer science you took classes from the Math, Electrical Engineering, and Physics departments and the Business School.

You need students to fill classes.

If you want to attend a 4 year school, well sorry, you might have to go to NOVA or outside SoMD.

EXACTLY!!

I REALLY wanted to go to Law School.. But find a part time/nights lawschool ANYWhere.

DC has them, but who wants to commute to DC?

I would guess that I'm probably the only person in DEEP Southern MD that would be interested in going to Night Law School, should I expect one of the big name colleges to teach Law School down here just for me?

EXACTLY!!

I REALLY wanted to go to Law School.. But find a part time/nights lawschool ANYWhere.

DC has them, but who wants to commute to DC?

I would guess that I'm probably the only person in DEEP Southern MD that would be interested in going to Night Law School, should I expect one of the big name colleges to teach Law School down here just for me?
When you graduate do you have to work in night court?

When you graduate do you have to work in night court?

People used to call me Bull...

EXACTLY!!

I REALLY wanted to go to Law School.. But find a part time/nights lawschool ANYWhere.

DC has them, but who wants to commute to DC?

I would guess that I'm probably the only person in DEEP Southern MD that would be interested in going to Night Law School, should I expect one of the big name colleges to teach Law School down here just for me?

Actually, I would like to go to law school too! I'm not joking. Well that's at least two prospective students. UMBC is the only affordable part-time program I can find. Also, there is no reason that SMC couldn't open a graduate school. How do you fund it? Dump the useless programs employers can't use. I won't name them specifically, because I fear the wrath of the "Student Designed" and Theater majors. BTW- those are actual majors that cost 26k a year at SMC. I don't think a mission re-alignment is out of order, especially since they receive state block grants of money to operate.

When you graduate do you have to work in night court?

Consider that UM Eastern Shore is in an area that makes SOMD look like an urban metropolis. UMES only has 3,900 students and grants degrees up to the doctoral level. CSM has 9,000 undergraduates, so the demand is clear. I submit that SOMD is being short changed. Again, college degrees remain the single biggest factor in individual economic achievement. Why would anyone argue to handicap their community so dramatically? UMES offers the following for it's 3,900 students:

School of Agricultural and Natural Sciences
School of Arts and Professions
School of Business and Technology
School of Pharmacy and Health Professions
School of Graduate Studies

Consider that UM Eastern Shore is in an area that makes SOMD look like an urban metropolis. UMES only has 3,900 students and grants degrees up to the doctoral level. CSM has 9,000 undergraduates, so the demand is clear. I submit that SOMD is being short changed. Again, college degrees remain the single biggest factor in individual economic achievement. Why would anyone argue to handicap their community so dramatically? UMES offers the following for it's 3,900 students:

School of Agricultural and Natural Sciences
School of Arts and Professions
School of Business and Technology
School of Pharmacy and Health Professions
School of Graduate Studies

Ample solution, move to the Eastern shore. SMC was here long before the base. Should Pax River change it's core values and purpose to match SMC?

Ample solution, move to the Eastern shore. SMC was here long before the base. Should Pax River change it's core values and purpose to match SMC?

Depends..

Which one employs more people and adds more to the local and state tax base?

Ample solution, move to the Eastern shore. SMC was here long before the base. Should Pax River change it's core values and purpose to match SMC?

Really? Your best argument is "I was here first?" I've been here for 20 years ain't going nowhere neighbor!

Depends..

Which one employs more people and adds more to the local and state tax base?

I'm guessing....Pax? Yep. That's my final answer Regis!

Ample solution, move to the Eastern shore. SMC was here long before the base. Should Pax River change it's core values and purpose to match SMC?

Are you suggesting that SMC has no obligation to help the local workforce in one of the toughest economies in decades? How big was there latest grant of tax money for operating costs? $18,000,000 give or take and no sense of obligation to the folks who gave up the tax money. Tragic.

Are you suggesting that SMC has no obligation to help the local workforce in one of the toughest economies in decades? How big was there latest grant of tax money for operating costs? $18,000,000 give or take and no sense of obligation to the folks who gave up the tax money. Tragic.

I am suggesting that to expect an entity to entirely change its nature after well over a 100 years of existence to fit needs that can already be filled by other means is silly. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are many people employed in the local area that have degrees from SMC.

Many years ago in a class at St. Mary's I suggested that the college had ample resources to develop some programs that focused on equipping students with the skills that NAVAIR was interested in. My classmates were violently opposed. I suspect elitism may have been a factor.

Many years ago in a class at St. Mary's I suggested that the college had ample resources to develop some programs that focused on equipping students with the skills that NAVAIR was interested in. My classmates were violently opposed. I suspect elitism may have been a factor.

Given this attitude, small wonder you see so many VT and Penn State tchotchkes in the cubicals.

I am suggesting that to expect an entity to entirely change its nature after well over a 100 years of existence to fit needs that can already be filled by other means is silly. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are many people employed in the local area that have degrees from SMC.

I appreciate your comments, but respectfully disagree. The fact is SMC is a public resource, because it receives $18,000,000 from taxpayers every year. That money comes with strings or should come with strings. Specifically, if the college expects to continue to receive tax money it must support the taxpayer. Parading "100 years of existence" as any kind of an excuse to resist organizational change is a deplorable mindset. Organizational agility is critical in the information age. Teaching anything less is a recipe for a calamity. So, if that's what is taught at SMC, it's bad juju for the school and pupils.

I also have a problem with "other means." It intimates a "go away we are special" message. You're not special. If SMC is training it's pupils to be anything less than meaningful conributors to society, they are being done a disservice. SMC is a potential educational oasis sitting in the middle of a 4 year degree desert. The taxpayer pays for it, so the taxpayer must benefit from it. It's a cycle. People work, pay taxes that support the school, the school trains the people to work. It really is that simple. Otherwise, I would suggest SMC take the college "for profit" route and surrender it's spot in the UM system to CSM and allow it to grant full degrees. BTW- that idea has merit. CSM serves 9,000 undergraduates SMC only 2,000. So, perhaps that "other means" will serve 4 and a half times the students currently being served. So, whenever SMC wants to stop being special, I see a fix. Until then, consider supoorting the taxpayers that support you!

Given this attitude, small wonder you see so many VT and Penn State tchotchkes in the cubicals.

I've been in the county for 20 years and never understood why people resist the idea of expanding educational capacity. One friend suggested the area is spoiled. What I mean by that is the flow of money from the G has been steady and generous relative to other areas of the country. I think she was right. Being originally from NJ, I grew up in the shadow of abandoned factories (ie Wall Rope, Campbell Soup, etc). The lesson I took away is to always stay hungry. That's another way to say competitive. If your not on your game, another sharper community might snatch your government issued pork chop. Getting too comfortable with the status quo is very dengerous.

A lack if agility can be fatal to a community. I don't blame folk for getting comfortable, but the fact is that BIG CUTS IN DEFENSE spending are coming. I would strongly suggest that St. Mary's get off it's butt and do everything it can to keep and grow an agile, educated, and competitive workforce. That means increasing educational capacity. Failing to do so will result in change. Don't believe me? Take a walk through Camden, NJ. Once home to major corporations like Campbell Soup and Sears. Another truth is that St. Mary's has all of it's eggs in the Pax basket. There is no "plan B." One bad congressional vote...and ooofah! People will get the quiet "country" life back in a hurry.

Random note....i would love to see CSM be able to give 4 year degree...instead of being in their transfer program. Im in their transfer program to go to UMUC once i have completed my AAS degree

Random note....i would love to see CSM be able to give 4 year degree...instead of being in their transfer program. Im in their transfer program to go to UMUC once i have completed my AAS degree

Good luck! I used that program to get my undergrad from UMUC. Both are good schools! For me, CSM was a much more convenient option. I had to go to Bolling, Adelphi, and Andrews to get a few of the classes not offered locally by UMUC.

CSM is a freakin joke

CSM is a freakin joke

Well for people who have no means to fund their education other then taking out loans,FA and racking up debt its the cheapest....

Well for people who have no means to fund their education other then taking out loans,FA and racking up debt its the cheapest....

There is nothing wrong with CSM. I'm sure it has it's good and bad points, but all schools do. It is the most economical option. I graduated from there. I made it all they way through grad school and am thankful for my education there. Bottomline, it is what you make of it. Obviously, they enabled me to succeed. Also, you are smart to watch your debt load. Many well informed sources say student debt could be the next economic bubble. I recently heard that Americans now have more student debt than credit card debt.

I find student loan debt to be "good debt" providing that it was used with care. Student loans are like a chainsaw, it can be very useful you just need to think about using it. Taking out $100k in debt to get a degree in underwater basket weaving is like using a chainsaw to scratch your balls with though.

I had $20k in debt when I got my MS 12 years ago, paid it off in 4 years and only strung it out that long because I had consolidated it at 2.5% interest.

Now buying usless junk on credit that adds no value to my net worth or earning potential is bad debt.

I think CSM is expensive for a community college.

I find student loan debt to be "good debt" providing that it was used with care. Student loans are like a chainsaw, it can be very useful you just need to think about using it. Taking out $100k in debt to get a degree in underwater basket weaving is like using a chainsaw to scratch your balls with though.

I had $20k in debt when I got my MS 12 years ago, paid it off in 4 years and only strung it out that long because I had consolidated it at 2.5% interest.

Now buying usless junk on credit that adds no value to my net worth or earning potential is bad debt.

I think CSM is expensive for a community college.



Im using nothing but the pell grant. Im paranoid about taking out student loans and not having a job after i graduate to pay it off

CSM is a freakin joke

Looks like your sitting here with us, genious!

Many years ago in a class at St. Mary's I suggested that the college had ample resources to develop some programs that focused on equipping students with the skills that NAVAIR was interested in. My classmates were violently opposed. I suspect elitism may have been a factor.

I hate to say it, but there is some of that attitude there.

I appreciate your comments, but respectfully disagree. The fact is SMC is a public resource, because it receives $18,000,000 from taxpayers every year. That money comes with strings or should come with strings. Specifically, if the college expects to continue to receive tax money it must support the taxpayer. Parading "100 years of existence" as any kind of an excuse to resist organizational change is a deplorable mindset. Organizational agility is critical in the information age. Teaching anything less is a recipe for a calamity. So, if that's what is taught at SMC, it's bad juju for the school and pupils.

I also have a problem with "other means." It intimates a "go away we are special" message. You're not special. If SMC is training it's pupils to be anything less than meaningful conributors to society, they are being done a disservice. SMC is a potential educational oasis sitting in the middle of a 4 year degree desert. The taxpayer pays for it, so the taxpayer must benefit from it. It's a cycle. People work, pay taxes that support the school, the school trains the people to work. It really is that simple. Otherwise, I would suggest SMC take the college "for profit" route and surrender it's spot in the UM system to CSM and allow it to grant full degrees. BTW- that idea has merit. CSM serves 9,000 undergraduates SMC only 2,000. So, perhaps that "other means" will serve 4 and a half times the students currently being served. So, whenever SMC wants to stop being special, I see a fix. Until then, consider supoorting the taxpayers that support you!

That 18M came from the state of MD, not St. Mary's county. And not that I would ever call 18M a small amount of money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to what is spent on education in MD statewide. It did come with strings attached, just not the ones you would like.

I see your point but WRT St. Mary's College I think your focus might be a bit too narrow. It exists to provide a broad education to students from all over the country, and from other countries for that matter. They have responded to change, by vastly strengthening their science programs, to compliment the liberal arts that they've always had. You are looking for them to have a local focus as a training ground for Pax (and I am not opposed to building up a working relationship between SMC and Pax) but that isn't what the school is here for. The vast majority of its students come from central or northern MD, or New England, outside Pax's sphere of influence.

Lastly, at what point did you gain the impression that SMC grads are not "meaningful contributors to society?" Is it because most of them don't go on to have a career at Pax? I know a lot of SMC alums who are doing fantastic research, volunteer work, started successful businesses, and activism for many causes. I don't know any who sit around and do nothing with their lives. How is that not contributing to society? The benefits are not always easily measured (as opposed to, say, the number of jobs Pax brings to SOMD) but they are valuable nonetheless.

Sounds to me that focusing on CSM would better serve your educational wish list for this area.

CSM is already a feeder to school to a large major university. CSM students can now be a part of the Maryland Transfer Advantage Program (MTAP) that guarantees University of Maryland admission to qualifying students who complete the program requirements. Students may begin studies at the College of Southern Maryland (CSM) and transition to University of Maryland programs in College Park or at Shady Grove. This innovative program not only eases the transfer process, but also makes it possible for students to begin taking classes at University of Maryland College Park at a tuition discount while still attending CSM.

If anyone thinks the University of Maryland is going to spend millions of dollars to build an brick and mortar campus in Southern Maryland because you're unwilling to drive to College Park, think again.

An education is time and money....

A recent news story about locals being too under educated to take advantage of defense jobs at Pax river sparked my curiosity. Why doesn't SOMD have a 4 year college? St. Mary's College doesn't fulfill this function. Why don't we make expand it's mission to better support the local economy? The SMHEC is a nice idea, but hasn't been wildly successful at closing the gap for the community. I heard a rumor that CSM tried years ago to become a 4 year college, but was unsuccessful. I graduated from UMUC. Online is nice, but brick & mortar has many advantages.

Well clearly the answer is to dumb down the requirements.

I hate to say it, but there is some of that attitude there.



That 18M came from the state of MD, not St. Mary's county. And not that I would ever call 18M a small amount of money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to what is spent on education in MD statewide. It did come with strings attached, just not the ones you would like.

I see your point but WRT St. Mary's College I think your focus might be a bit too narrow. It exists to provide a broad education to students from all over the country, and from other countries for that matter. They have responded to change, by vastly strengthening their science programs, to compliment the liberal arts that they've always had. You are looking for them to have a local focus as a training ground for Pax (and I am not opposed to building up a working relationship between SMC and Pax) but that isn't what the school is here for. The vast majority of its students come from central or northern MD, or New England, outside Pax's sphere of influence.

Lastly, at what point did you gain the impression that SMC grads are not "meaningful contributors to society?" Is it because most of them don't go on to have a career at Pax? I know a lot of SMC alums who are doing fantastic research, volunteer work, started successful businesses, and activism for many causes. I don't know any who sit around and do nothing with their lives. How is that not contributing to society? The benefits are not always easily measured (as opposed to, say, the number of jobs Pax brings to SOMD) but they are valuable nonetheless.

Sounds to me that focusing on CSM would better serve your educational wish list for this area.

Very well said, but please allow me to retort. $18,000,000.00 is a lot of money. Relativism? A man drowning under 12 inches of water is better off than a man drowning under 10 feet? That's the kind of "disconnect" that troubles me the most. The economy is tough. The tax base (ie small business, Pax, etc) need help. Staying competitive matters. If $18,000,000.00 is only a drop in the bucket than SMC won't mind giving it up? Hmmm....thought so! Maybe, it's more than "a drop in the bucket."

Yes, you can bet a bunch of that money came from St. Mary's, Charles, and Calvert counties.

As for my impression of SMC students? I have none. Literally, I have lived in the county for 20 years and not a peep out of them. Frankly, they are not the object of my argument. As for international or kids from out state, it makes my point. The people of Maryland are paying for a system that educates other people's kids. On a personal level, I don't care if the kid from Bangkok majors in theater...just not on my dime. And damn sure not when that kid is going to take the education we gave him back to his country and beat us over the head with it. If the kid wants to become an engineer, I don't mind educating him/her, as long as they become US citizens when they're done. Paying for talent and then exporting it makes zero sense.

I noticed that Mary Washington put a branch in Dahlgren to support folk and a similar gesture is all that I'm looking for from SMC, UMUC, or CSM. Bottomline, SMC time for riding the public dime should be ended. If you want to be special and support kids from out of state and not our own...OK...just don't ask for tax money to do it. So, I'll be waiting for my "drop in the bucket" to be returned ASAP. I'm guessing that I shouldn't hold my breath? Take care! Honestly, I respect your point of view, but just think it is majorly out of touch. Shalom!

CSM is already a feeder to school to a large major university. CSM students can now be a part of the Maryland Transfer Advantage Program (MTAP) that guarantees University of Maryland admission to qualifying students who complete the program requirements. Students may begin studies at the College of Southern Maryland (CSM) and transition to University of Maryland programs in College Park or at Shady Grove. This innovative program not only eases the transfer process, but also makes it possible for students to begin taking classes at University of Maryland College Park at a tuition discount while still attending CSM.

If anyone thinks the University of Maryland is going to spend millions of dollars to build an brick and mortar campus in Southern Maryland because you're unwilling to drive to College Park, think again.

An education is time and money....

I hate to be a kill joy, but I graduated from that program. Round trips to Adelphi, Andrews, and Bolling to complete my degree were necessary. It's true about 60% of the classes that I needed were offered locally, but finding and timing out that crucial 40% was a real B. It slowed degree completion greatly!

As for what College Park thinks, I don't care. Actually, I think the school is over rated. Eventually, the market will correct the imbalance. Unfortunately, that probably means "for profit" schools, which I also graduated from but don't necessarily recommend. They tend to be too predatory for me. There is nothing wrong with their academic rigor though (in the regionally accredited bunch).

Your solutions are great for kids, but really tough for the workforce (ie working adults). 100 + mile commutes several times a week are unrealistic for folk transitioning in the workforce. It's too expensive and time consuming. It saddens me to say, but maybe it's time for the "for profits" to swoop in and clean out the less than agile public institutions. Again, not what I want, but it's probably how it'll go down. College Park can save it's money, Strayer, Phoenix, Northcentral, and dozen others might have to fill this void. Take care!

Very well said, but please allow me to retort. $18,000,000.00 is a lot of money. Relativism? A man drowning under 12 inches of water is better off than a man drowning under 10 feet? That's the kind of "disconnect" that troubles me the most. The economy is tough. The tax base (ie small business, Pax, etc) need help. Staying competitive matters. If $18,000,000.00 is only a drop in the bucket than SMC won't mind giving it up? Hmmm....thought so! Maybe, it's more than "a drop in the bucket."

Yes, you can bet a bunch of that money came from St. Mary's, Charles, and Calvert counties.

As for my impression of SMC students? I have none. Literally, I have lived in the county for 20 years and not a peep out of them. Frankly, they are not the object of my argument. As for international or kids from out state, it makes my point. The people of Maryland are paying for a system that educates other people's kids. On a personal level, I don't care if the kid from Bangkok majors in theater...just not on my dime. And damn sure not when that kid is going to take the education we gave him back to his country and beat us over the head with it. If the kid wants to become an engineer, I don't mind educating him/her, as long as they become US citizens when they're done. Paying for talent and then exporting it makes zero sense.

I noticed that Mary Washington put a branch in Dahlgren to support folk and a similar gesture is all that I'm looking for from SMC, UMUC, or CSM. Bottomline, SMC time for riding the public dime should be ended. If you want to be special and support kids from out of state and not our own...OK...just don't ask for tax money to do it. So, I'll be waiting for my "drop in the bucket" to be returned ASAP. I'm guessing that I shouldn't hold my breath? Take care! Honestly, I respect your point of view, but just think it is majorly out of touch. Shalom!

I agree with many of your suggestions; it is difficult for working adults to further their education and the county/state would be well served to spend money fixing that problem. I think my only disconnect with you is that you think SMC is obligated to churn out engineers/acquisition professionals as opposed to setting their own course. Would it be good for them to reach out to Pax and the local community? Yes. Are they obligated to do so? IMO, no.

Just a difference of opinion.

I agree with many of your suggestions; it is difficult for working adults to further their education and the county/state would be well served to spend money fixing that problem. I think my only disconnect with you is that you think SMC is obligated to churn out engineers/acquisition professionals as opposed to setting their own course. Would it be good for them to reach out to Pax and the local community? Yes. Are they obligated to do so? IMO, no.

Just a difference of opinion.

Well said! I appreciate the exchange of ideas and hope I wasn't too hard on SMC. My argument is larger than Pax though. I think somewhere in the discourse it seemed like that was my sole concern. Actually, I do not work on Pax and have never been in the Navy, however I am a veteran. I do think that St. Mary's has all of it's eggs in the Pax basket, so my argument is for creating greater workforce agility through higher education. Like I said, cuts are coming and one bad congressional vote could give some folk back the quiet country life they seem to pine for so much on this board. Unfortunately, it would be a disaster for the local economy. I will stick to my proverbial guns on one point, if SMC, UMUC, or CSM don't step up, chances are the for profits will. I graduated from a for profit. Again, there is nothing wrong with their academic rigor, however their business practices prey on the uninformed and veterans. Senator Harkin recently uncovered a number of their abuses, including mirepresentation, FA fraud, low graduation rates, etc. I'd rather see a public solution.

I am suggesting that to expect an entity to entirely change its nature after well over a 100 years of existence to fit needs that can already be filled by other means is silly. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that there are many people employed in the local area that have degrees from SMC.

Their economics program is very good.

Not sure about the Engineer status on base, although I have neighbors in the programs, but most other competencies don't require high-level educated folks for higher level positions. I have heard some comment on the level of intelligence on the newbies of late... :whistle:

In some competencies one could easily snatch up a GS-14 or 15 position over a little time or within a few years if they are part of this good ole' boy club. Own a house with the right neighbor, be a relative of some kind to the right family, utilize that big brown nose with a snitch; and only have a high school diploma, if that... when I moved here a decade ago, many senior leadership (civilians) had the same similar last names. That cleared up a bit from attrition over the years. Favortism, nepotism and cronyism is fluidly rapid in many divisions on this base... tons of degrees are nothing to some in leadership since they don't have any (or much) themselves... And yes, all other agencies have this, but never this extreme, imho... I have witnessed many jump into the ranks a few years ago and now are GS14's with no supervision responsibilities... and doing the same duties and many were promoted over career employees that have been doing those same duties for many years... go figure!

But you won't read about any of this in the public newspaper... but it exists more than many may know or realize. EEO and union are worthless and just a smoke in mirror to create management power point briefs for DC.

that's my opinion... take it or leave it. if you totally disagree, then I'd say take a look in the mirror.

Someone needs to call Channel 9 News on the unfair hiring practices!

I'm sure your classes are equilivant, if you are going to look for a new job after your finished you may find some "discrimination" because of the missing h.

My friend applied for a PhD required job and at the interview they were shocked that he hadn't done a post doc yet. They had just assumed that anyone applying for that job would have also done a post doc, kinda weird that they didn't list that as a requirement. He did two years of post doc and then got hired by that company.

This led me to do some research on my own..

A "job" should never require a PhD as a PhD is intended for professors (teachers) and those doing research in their degreed field.

A job with a Docotoral Degree requirement should actually require a Professional Degree/Doctorate not a PhD. To use an example: A Medical Doctor that sees patients has a Professional Degree, a Medical Doctor that does research in a lab would have a PhD. An Engineer that teaches at JHU would have a PhD, whereas an engineer actually working in the field would (should) have a Professional Degree.

If you want to teach, get a PhD. If you want to work in the field get a PD.

Favoritism, nepotism and cronyism is what makes Pax and St Mary's County work so well together. Unfortunately there is no escaping it while living in the local area. If you want to do something about it, move somewhere else like I am working on doing. Central MD or NOVA does not sound bad at all compared to down here.

Favoritism, nepotism and cronyism is what makes Pax and St Mary's County work so well together. Unfortunately there is no escaping it while living in the local area. If you want to do something about it, move somewhere else like I am working on doing. Central MD or NOVA does not sound bad at all compared to down here.

You seem to have a point, but I'm not the running type. I'll stay right where I've been for the last 20 years. I'm hopeful change can be made...glacially...but never the less change. All things considered, the G doesn't do a bad job...or at least I've seen worse. I just want them to get their act together on this issue. It's the excuse making that's irritating me. The proposition seems to be:

1. A sewer for Lexington Park OR
2. A sewer and a $21,000,000.00 public works project in Charlotte Hall with lasting benefits for the county

Any vote for option #1 is irrational.

You seem to have a point, but I'm not the running type. I'll stay right where I've been for the last 20 years. I'm hopeful change can be made...glacially...but never the less change. All things considered, the G doesn't do a bad job...or at least I've seen worse. I just want them to get their act together on this issue. It's the excuse making that's irritating me. The proposition seems to be:

1. A sewer for Lexington Park OR
2. A sewer and a $21,000,000.00 public works project in Charlotte Hall with lasting benefits for the county

Any vote for option #1 is irrational.

I grew up here, I went to school in this county and have degrees from CSM and UMUC. I came back to this area only because my parents were and are still here. I am not a SMIB, mom and dad were both transplants thanks to having DC jobs after their time in the USMC. It is because of this upbringing and time away in the USAF, I can see how poorly managed PAX River NAS really is. I do not want to move from the area as I like the peace and quiet, however my g/f cannot find a job down here unless she leaves the Government and goes back to being a contractor, and that is not happening. (GS-13's are terribly hard to come by here in SoMD for a woman from Ohio and her not local enough b/f does not know whom to suck up to, to help her out.) With no job prospects for her, it is easier for me to move my contractor self up to Anne Arundel or Howard County than to stay here. I will just take it in the shorts for a few years renting out my house but life could be worse!

I have read all of the posts on this topic and I have to agree with both sides of the argument. Personally I think, CSM would better serve the public if they teamed up with SMHEC Schools and actually gave students the chance to attend the schools represented at the SMHEC at the other CSM Campuses, JMHO; and it could save tax payer dollars in the future.

I grew up here, I went to school in this county and have degrees from CSM and UMUC. I came back to this area only because my parents were and are still here. I am not a SMIB, mom and dad were both transplants thanks to having DC jobs after their time in the USMC. It is because of this upbringing and time away in the USAF, I can see how poorly managed PAX River NAS really is. I do not want to move from the area as I like the peace and quiet, however my g/f cannot find a job down here unless she leaves the Government and goes back to being a contractor, and that is not happening. (GS-13's are terribly hard to come by here in SoMD for a woman from Ohio and her not local enough b/f does not know whom to suck up to, to help her out.) With no job prospects for her, it is easier for me to move my contractor self up to Anne Arundel or Howard County than to stay here. I will just take it in the shorts for a few years renting out my house but life could be worse!



Can you provide more detail about girl friend??

Background, experience, degrees, what king of GS13?? Is she chubby??

...

Can you provide more detail about girl friend??

Background, experience, degrees, what king of GS13?? Is she chubby??

...

Disabled Veteran, currently an ISSM at the Washington Navy Yard. 2 Masters Degrees, CISSP, her series is 2210. I am not touching the last question!

Disabled Veteran, currently an ISSM at the Washington Navy Yard. 2 Masters Degrees, CISSP, her series is 2210. I am not touching the last question!

GS might be tough, as most of that work is done by contractors at PAX, but she should have NO problem finding a job...

And the equivalent to a GS 13...

GS might be tough, as most of that work is done by contractors at PAX, but she should have NO problem finding a job...

And the equivalent to a GS 13...

Like I said she likes her Gov't benes over what the Contracting world offers. She would be happy to stay here with a lateral, but thanks to Cybercom being stood up, up by No Such Agency and we both are in the same field there is a high likelihood of ending up some where near there.

Plenty of IA jobs out there, issue is job security.

Like I said she likes her Gov't benes over what the Contracting world offers. She would be happy to stay here with a lateral, but thanks to Cybercom being stood up, up by No Such Agency and we both are in the same field there is a high likelihood of ending up some where near there.

Well, understand the perception of the great government bennies, but what do you and her consider the favorable benefit for the gov't over the contractors?

Asking out of curiosity, being a Vet myself....

Not that you asked but Im not gov and have thought recently about a job change. Hard part for me is working on a contract that could be yanked or just expires. I also enjoy my 401k, pension, SRS (special retirement supplement), and maybe health care although Im sure that is similar.

Not that you asked but Im not gov and have thought recently about a job change. Hard part for me is working on a contract that could be yanked or just expires. I also enjoy my 401k, pension, SRS (special retirement supplement), and maybe health care although Im sure that is similar.

Well I THINK the big one on the GOV side is Medical now.. It used to be our retirment, but that's not as good as it used to be.

And granted I don't know specifics but if a person is covered under Tri-Care or ChampVA there is no benefit to getting the medical insurance the gov't offers (last I checked the gov't does not offer a Tri-Care supplement which makes NO sense to me at all)..

I think the BIGGEST benefit to the Gov't side these days is the stability..

Plenty of IA jobs out there, issue is job security.

Exactly! I feel the exact same way. I am confident that if something happens to my position, I can find another one thanks to Certifications and degrees. It might not be overnight but it will not be long before I land another position.

Well, understand the perception of the great government bennies, but what do you and her consider the favorable benefit for the gov't over the contractors?

Asking out of curiosity, being a Vet myself....

She has job security, stability, and the ability to retire in 20 years as long as she maintains her course. As a contractor in the current government economical climate, there is an underlying fear of major cutbacks in staff due to the coming possible draw down of budgets.

Well I THINK the big one on the GOV side is Medical now.. It used to be our retirment, but that's not as good as it used to be.

And granted I don't know specifics but if a person is covered under Tri-Care or ChampVA there is no benefit to getting the medical insurance the gov't offers (last I checked the gov't does not offer a Tri-Care supplement which makes NO sense to me at all)..

I think the BIGGEST benefit to the Gov't side these days is the stability..

:yeahthat:

This led me to do some research on my own..

A "job" should never require a PhD as a PhD is intended for professors (teachers) and those doing research in their degreed field.

A job with a Docotoral Degree requirement should actually require a Professional Degree/Doctorate not a PhD. To use an example: A Medical Doctor that sees patients has a Professional Degree, a Medical Doctor that does research in a lab would have a PhD. An Engineer that teaches at JHU would have a PhD, whereas an engineer actually working in the field would (should) have a Professional Degree.

If you want to teach, get a PhD. If you want to work in the field get a PD.

Justify it however you want, there is nothing with a PhD that enhances teaching. The PhD degree demonstrates this the person is capable of doing independent, significant research oriented work.

Some universities (mostly over seas) offer EdD degrees that are also easier to get.

Justify it however you want, there is nothing with a PhD that enhances teaching. The PhD degree demonstrates this the person is capable of doing independent, significant research oriented work.

Some universities (mostly over seas) offer EdD degrees that are also easier to get.

EdD, DBA, Phd... do any of them demonstrate an ability to focus on the central theme of a forum thread? LOL! Lemmee help, the thread is about a lack of educational opportunities in SOMD and workforce agility. FOCUS people...come on...you can do it!

EdD, DBA, Phd... do any of them demonstrate an ability to focus on the central theme of a forum thread? LOL! Lemmee help, the thread is about a lack of educational opportunities in SOMD and workforce agility. FOCUS people...come on...you can do it!

Sure it does, the lack of a real PhD program in engineering in southern Maryland.

Sure it does, the lack of a real PhD program in engineering in southern Maryland.

I stand corrected ;-) Enjoy your evening, it's beautiful outside.

Justify it however you want, there is nothing with a PhD that enhances teaching. The PhD degree demonstrates this the person is capable of doing independent, significant research oriented work.

Some universities (mostly over seas) offer EdD degrees that are also easier to get.

I would assume since you know how incredibly easy it is to get a PD v a PhD, that you must have a PhD?

Our did your take the 'easy way out' and get the PD?

I know it amazes me that how incredibly easy it is that everyone doesn't have one...

I would assume since you know how incredibly easy it is to get a PD v a PhD, that you must have a PhD?

Our did your take the 'easy way out' and get the PD?

I know it amazes me that how incredibly easy it is that everyone doesn't have one...

Dont get your panties in knot, I never said it was easy but when you take out the research oriented part of a MS or PhD program alot is lost.

I know the class part is the easy part of a graduate degree, every class I had for my MS also had PhD students in it also. The difference was I needed 33 credits and they needed 60 something I think and also had to take a qualifying exam after 1 year in the field and if they didnt pass they were kicked out of the program. I had a couple friends that were able to complete the 33 credits but dropped out due to the "significantly individual publishable quality" requirement of the thesis and the requirement for the PhD dissertation is significantly more demanding. One of my friends I was in undregrad with spent 5 years on his research/dissertation portion alone but published dozens of papers on neural networks with his dissertation research.

If I have a choice to hire one of two individuals and all else being equal I will pick the one that has done a thesis oriented program every time.

Dont get your panties in knot, I never said it was easy but when you take out the research oriented part of a MS or PhD program alot is lost.

I know the class part is the easy part of a graduate degree, every class I had for my MS also had PhD students in it also. The difference was I needed 33 credits and they needed 60 something I think and also had to take a qualifying exam after 1 year in the field and if they didnt pass they were kicked out of the program. I had a couple friends that were able to complete the 33 credits but dropped out due to the "significantly individual publishable quality" requirement of the thesis and the requirement for the PhD dissertation is significantly more demanding. One of my friends I was in undregrad with spent 5 years on his research/dissertation portion alone but published dozens of papers on neural networks with his dissertation research.

If I have a choice to hire one of two individuals and all else being equal I will pick the one that has done a thesis oriented program every time.

I had a PhD heavy mix of mentors in graduate school, but always seemed to appreciate the ones that actually left school and worked in the real world for awhile. Before you say it, no I don't have a PhD and don't feel bad about it...at all. I have a MBA and 23 years of experience in my field. There is no way that I'm going to clap erasers, student teach, and give publishing credit to someone else for my work. Frankly, I think there is a reason the ROI doesn't happen for most PhD's. When I'm jurying information in my profession, I still want to see the authors real world qualifications. I want to know that they know where, how, and when the rubber meets the road. Merely publishing means little to me. However, a record of industry proven success and some publishing...now I'm listening. After all, if you're not scribbling about the real world, what good is the research anyway? As for hiring people, I've turned down well published PhD's with no industry experience...I can't say much more than that for obvious reasons. Bottomline, publishing and teaching both take a backseat to real world industry success.

Clapping erasers, good god where did you see any graduate student doing that? Thats what the janitors or work studies did.

As for the research experience vs real world a private company gave the school I attended a grant to help develop a technology because they did not have the resources to do it without spending a ton of money and hiring someone they would later probably get rid of. Most engineering graduate students go to school for free and get a stipend (Im guessing still arround $1500 a month) because of investments from the real world, these real world investors also monitor the progress and if they are not happy the graduate students are usually removed from the assistanceship. Having been in the "real world" since 2000 I have seen more than my share of "successes" because the person "was a good employee" vs actually being successful at their job.

Also most of the places that I know of that I and my fellow students/professors published papers had to be accepted by a committee that included mostly industry insiders.

Clapping erasers, good god where did you see any graduate student doing that? Thats what the janitors or work studies did.

As for the research experience vs real world a private company gave the school I attended a grant to help develop a technology because they did not have the resources to do it without spending a ton of money and hiring someone they would later probably get rid of. Most engineering graduate students go to school for free and get a stipend (Im guessing still arround $1500 a month) because of investments from the real world, these real world investors also monitor the progress and if they are not happy the graduate students are usually removed from the assistanceship. Having been in the "real world" since 2000 I have seen more than my share of "successes" because the person "was a good employee" vs actually being successful at their job.

Also most of the places that I know of that I and my fellow students/professors published papers had to be accepted by a committee that included mostly industry insiders.

Agreed. I do like the pertnership programs over a cold hire. It makes sense. Business school is probably different than engineering. Good schools are mercilessly competitive. All type "A" plus personalities. On a personal note, I paid a lot more attention to the DBA's that were self-made in the business world. The PhD economics, accounting, statistic types were just OK. For me, it's about who has walked the walk. Does that make sense?

Agreed. I do like the pertnership programs over a cold hire. It makes sense. Business school is probably different than engineering. Good schools are mercilessly competitive. All type "A" plus personalities. On a personal note, I paid a lot more attention to the DBA's that were self-made in the business world. The PhD economics, accounting, statistic types were just OK. For me, it's about who has walked the walk. Does that make sense?

I've met a few PhD's whose carreers were solely collegiate..

Did 10 - 12 years in academia to get their PhD before entering the workforce. Have no idea who would be crazy enough to hire them.

One was my neighbor in Solomons, he was 40 something and had never had a real job.. his entire adult life was spent in school. His gravy train jumped the tracks (I believe his mom had died) and dad actually had to find him a job.

Most times these are the people that are actually TEACHING our future engineers, scientists and program managers.. People that have never really worked in the field, but they have an exemplary academic record.

Agreed. I do like the pertnership programs over a cold hire. It makes sense. Business school is probably different than engineering. Good schools are mercilessly competitive. All type "A" plus personalities. On a personal note, I paid a lot more attention to the DBA's that were self-made in the business world. The PhD economics, accounting, statistic types were just OK. For me, it's about who has walked the walk. Does that make sense?

That makes perfect sense, honestly I have no idea how such a field would do a research oriented degree. I never understood how fields such as English and Literature could either, guess thats why I'm a hard sciences guy.

I've met a few PhD's whose carreers were solely collegiate..

Did 10 - 12 years in academia to get their PhD before entering the workforce. Have no idea who would be crazy enough to hire them.

One was my neighbor in Solomons, he was 40 something and had never had a real job.. his entire adult life was spent in school. His gravy train jumped the tracks (I believe his mom had died) and dad actually had to find him a job.

Most times these are the people that are actually TEACHING our future engineers, scientists and program managers.. People that have never really worked in the field, but they have an exemplary academic record.

It's actually a great life, as a masters student I had a stipend of $1500 a month of that there was very little taxes taken out, no social security and no medicare taken out. PhD stipend was about $1800 a month and some students could get fellowships that would also pay them a pretty penny (I know of one that was $35k/year), not sure if any thing was taken out of the fellowship money or not. Post-doc work paid about $40k/year not sure if it also counted as financial aid or not but they were expected to work 60-80 hrs a week.

I believe every one of my professors had their P.E. and most had worked in industry at some point in time.