I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:
I think you should be up front about it, not spring it on folks unexpectedly if you get elected.

If you want to pray, then hold a Prayer Meeting. If you want to hold a HOA meeting, then hold an HOA meeting. Don't mix the two.

If you want to pray, then hold a Prayer Meeting. If you want to hold a HOA meeting, then hold an HOA meeting. Don't mix the two.:yeahthat: It's business not a sporting event. People don't say prayers or the pledge at work before meetings.

If you want to pray, then hold a Prayer Meeting. If you want to hold a HOA meeting, then hold an HOA meeting. Don't mix the two.

I'm sitting here muddling my thoughts together, not really being able to hit on it and then, the clouds part, the sun pops out and BG (or bob logged on wrong again) hits it out of the park. Walk off, game winner. Touchdown. Bingo. Bulls eye.

:buddies:

Then you are all saying no.... don't do it....

Only Zguy is in favor of prayer before the meeting begins.... and I should let people know before I am elected if I want to put an invocation on the agenda....

An invocation opens all commissioner meetings and legislative meetings.... why not an HOA of 4400 homes?

Oh and by the way... I do pray at work and I do discuss the Bible with the lady who works with me in the office.

Schools were better before we took prayer away....

The question was.... Do you think people would think I am advocating prayer to get elected?

The question was.... Do you think people would think I am advocating prayer to get elected?

Most likely. Has the thought occurred to you that you might lose votes over this instead of gaining them?

Most likely. Has the thought occurred to you that you might lose votes over this instead of gaining them?

She isn't going to get elected anyway. Why would anyone think that she would be any better this time than in all her previous attempts? So she gains ten votes from some fundies, loses ten votes from atheists, and still ends up with 20 votes.

She isn't going to get elected anyway. Why would anyone think that she would be any better this time than in all her previous attempts? So she gains ten votes from some fundies, loses ten votes from atheists, and still ends up with 20 votes.

That's not my point.... tho I don't doubt what your saying....

I don't want to diminish prayer....Do you think people would think I am advocating prayer to get elected?

Never mind.... I guess it doesn't really matter.

The only thing that does matter is what The Lord wants anyway... nothing I say or do will change that.... luckily....
:coffee:

That's not my point.... tho I don't doubt what your saying....

I don't want to diminish prayer....Do you think people would think I am advocating prayer to get elected?

Never mind.... I guess it doesn't really matter.

The only thing that does matter is what The Lord wants anyway... nothing I say or do will change that.... luckily....
:coffee:

How would you feel if the person elected was a member of a Satanic Cult? Would you object to having a meeting with skulls, candle light and fresh blood passed around before getting down to HOA business?

How would you feel if the person elected was a member of a Satanic Cult? Would you object to having a meeting with skulls, candle light and fresh blood passed around before getting down to HOA business?

I would call for a revote.... :coffee:

How would you feel if the person elected was a member of a Satanic Cult? Would you object to having a meeting with skulls, candle light and fresh blood passed around before getting down to HOA business?

could you please let me know what HOA this is???? maybe they will sacrifice small welfare kids :coffee:

People don't say prayers or the pledge at work before meetings.


I do.


It usually goes along the lines of: "Please God, let this meeting be short. Please God, don't let X ask a bazillion useless questions that should be asked in another context. Please God, give me the strength not to slap the bejezus out of someone for being a simpleton."

I would call for a revote.... :coffee:

So you like prayer as long as it's the way you like it. If the majority voted for a person, but they don't pray the way you like, you'd call for a new election? Really? That is why you won't be elected. Your first reaction is to pour resources into a problem that you created.

Your prayer idea is divisive. Do you really think we need more conflict? There isn't enough already?

So you like prayer as long as it's the way you like it. If the majority voted for a person, but they don't pray the way you like, you'd call for a new election? Really? That is why you won't be elected. Your first reaction is to pour resources into a problem that you created.

Your prayer idea is divisive. Do you really think we need more conflict? There isn't enough already?

I know a lot of people in CRE.... and I've been dealing with them for years... if the majority of them voted in someone who was the head of satanic cult.... then I'd KNOW there was something irregular with the vote....:geek:

I'll just pray about the prayer and let the Lord lead me.... it's not in my hands anyway.... :coffee:

I'm really sorry I brought it up at all.... I do think we need more prayer everywhere.... especially after reading the Old Testament as I have been for the last few months.... but this was obviously not the place to bring the topic.:coffee:

could you please let me know what HOA this is???? maybe they will sacrifice small welfare kids :coffee:

You know, that yearly bill for the Home Owners Association?

I know a lot of people in CRE.... and I've been dealing with them for years... if the majority of them voted in someone who was the head of satanic cult.... then I'd KNOW there was something irregular with the vote....:geek:



maybe you don't KNOW them like you THINK you do. Some people view their religious beliefs as private. They don't shove their beliefs down your throat or thump bibles in your face.

Stop. Just Stop. You are making yourself sound like a complete idiot. If I lived in CRE, I wouldn't vote for you based upon your last few statements. You are worried people will think you are trying to get votes by bringing prayer to your meeting? I think it's the opposite. :coffee:

but this was obviously not the place to bring the topic.:coffee:Exactly... that is why there is separation of church and state in America. America has freedom of religion and that means acceptance of a vast variety in beliefs. You have no more right to start a HOA meeting with your prayer than the Buddhist or Wiccan does, etc. so don't try to mix the two... it is rude.

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?
:coffee:

CRE can use all the prayers it can get is what I think. People showing at meeting and participation is whats important. As far as those that don't like the idea... well like the response my mom gave when asked whats for dinner "'TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT' she said, just be at the table." Respect is a great gift. I could be at a meeting and allow those who want to pray to pray, to pledge...to pledge. No matter my feelings on those issues. Those that can't need not attend as far as I'm concerned.

:coffee:

You know, that yearly bill for the Home Owners Association?

:smack:... i know what it is.... I want to know what HOA has that Pres.... I may move there

maybe you don't KNOW them like you THINK you do. Some people view their religious beliefs as private. They don't shove their beliefs down your throat or thump bibles in your face.

Stop. Just Stop. You are making yourself sound like a complete idiot. If I lived in CRE, I wouldn't vote for you based upon your last few statements. You are worried people will think you are trying to get votes by bringing prayer to your meeting? I think it's the opposite. :coffee:

:yay:

.

:smack:... i know what it is.... I want to know what HOA has that Pres.... I may move there

My bad, I was choking on the religion being shoved down my throat and didn't read it properly due to lack of oxygen.

CRE

Have fun.

I do.


It usually goes along the lines of: "Please God, let this meeting be short. Please God, don't let X ask a bazillion useless questions that should be asked in another context. Please God, give me the strength not to slap the bejezus out of someone for being a simpleton."

See? Never works, does it??? But, THAT is true faith!

:buddies:

CRE can use all the prayers it can get is what I think. People showing at meeting and participation is whats important. As far as those that don't like the idea... well like the response my mom gave when asked whats for dinner "'TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT' she said, just be at the table." Respect is a great gift. I could be at a meeting and allow those who want to pray to pray, to pledge...to pledge. No matter my feelings on those issues. Those that can't need not attend as far as I'm concerned.

:coffee:

That's all fine and dandy until you are making decisions that affect those people who aren't there because you are trying to shove your beliefs down thier throat.....

If you account for everyones faith and beliefs prior to starting business, then go for it. But just subscribing to one person's faith because they are the president of some roody poo HOA is redonkulous.

My bad, I was choking on the religion being shoved down my throat and didn't read it properly due to lack of oxygen.

CRE

Have fun.


dont you hate that.....

dont you hate that.....

I like to choose when/where and how I practice my religion. Yes, regilious fananatics get on my nerves, no matter what their beliefs are, even if they are the same as mine.

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:

...why are you so concerned?

Do what you are going to do.

Though, if you bring this up as an election talking point, then, yes it could sway votes to you and against you.

I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.

If you don't want to diminish prayer - then don't make a business out of it!

I like to choose when/where and how I practice my religion. Yes, regilious fananatics get on my nerves, no matter what their beliefs are, even if they are the same as mine.

Like congress, ussc, nascar, presidential inaugurations, thousands of local councils etc. Just plain ignorance of our history.

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:

Have you been a member of the HOA for a long time and routinely attending meetings? If so, and you've never brought it up before, then yes it would look like you were gleaning for votes.

I like to choose when/where and how I practice my religion. Yes, regilious fananatics get on my nerves, no matter what their beliefs are, even if they are the same as mine.

You have a pretty fanatical POV. :razz:

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:

Most likely. Has the thought occurred to you that you might lose votes over this instead of gaining them?
It does kind of sound like your pandering to the more religious types.

Like congress, ussc, nascar, presidential inaugurations, thousands of local councils etc. Just plain ignorance of our history.
Not ignorant of it, doesn't mean I agree with it though.

CRE can use all the prayers it can get is what I think. People showing at meeting and participation is whats important. As far as those that don't like the idea... well like the response my mom gave when asked whats for dinner "'TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT' she said, just be at the table." Respect is a great gift. I could be at a meeting and allow those who want to pray to pray, to pledge...to pledge. No matter my feelings on those issues. Those that can't need not attend as far as I'm concerned.

:coffee:I practice Santeria. Once you're elected, I'll be bringing a live chicken to be sacrificed during the opening healing ceremony. Please have plenty of Bounty on hand. TIA :flowers:

LMAO ...so many of the posts quote me and are written like I'm running for HOA Prez.

I simply said, it wouldn't keep me from attending a meeting. She can try to get her votes any way she likes. Showing up to address the important issues of the meetings would be what would matter.

:coffee:

Thank you all for your input. I've decided that IF I am elected [which isn't at all a certainty] I will get to the meetings early so a prayer can be said with anyone who might be interested joining in....

You've been a big help... thanks

Becky:coffee:

Not ignorant of it, doesn't mean I agree with it though.

Ok so u and others want to undermine and destroy our traditions? There are other godless countries that might like to have you.:killingme

LMAO ...so many of the posts quote me and are written like I'm running for HOA Prez.

I simply said, it wouldn't keep me from attending a meeting. She can try to get her votes any way she likes. Showing up to address the important issues of the meetings would be what would matter.

:coffee:Oops, I didn't mean to quote you but since you're ok with religion opening meetings, I'll leave it. :lol:

Ok so u and others want to undermine and destroy our traditions? There are other godless countries that might like to have you.:killingmePlease provide a list of "godless" countries.

please provide a list of "godless" countries.

boom!

I have a question... might as well bring it up now and here.... You all probably know I'm in an election now to be president of an HOA board....

Here's my question.... I'd really like to open all the meetings with a prayer and a pledge of allegience.... It hasn't been done for over a decade....

I know we need prayer to be successful.... there's no question in my mind about that....

Do you think that saying I want to open all the meetings with prayer would be misconstrued as a ploy to get votes?

I don't want to diminish the importance of my Lord in all my decisions.

what do you think?


:coffee:

Make sure you mention your thoughts on the subject in any literature/talks you put out to your HOA members/board members. That way it will not be a surprise.

If you are deemed as the best candidate, those that agree with your thoughts will probably vote for you, those that don't agree but are looking for the best candidate may vote for you, and there will be a block of voters that just don't want you as prez.

Whatever, make sure you do the absolutely wrong thing as a politician - just be truthful.:smoochy:

Then you are all saying no.... don't do it....

Only Zguy is in favor of prayer before the meeting begins.... and I should let people know before I am elected if I want to put an invocation on the agenda....

An invocation opens all commissioner meetings and legislative meetings.... why not an HOA of 4400 homes?

Oh and by the way... I do pray at work and I do discuss the Bible with the lady who works with me in the office.

Schools were better before we took prayer away....

The question was.... Do you think people would think I am advocating prayer to get elected?

No, I would think It would turn them off though. Espically those that resist change. I would go for it, if your willing to lose the election over the principle!

Ok so u and others want to undermine and destroy our traditions? There are other godless countries that might like to have you.:killingme
Yes I do and there are many countries that would be proud to have me.

Yes I do and there are many countries that would be proud to have me.

At least you admit it. I will paypal you the ticket money. :buddies:

At least you admit it. I will paypal you the ticket money. :buddies:
I didn't say I was leaving, just that they'd be proud to have me. I plan on sticking around here and changing things more to my liking.

I didn't say I was leaving, just that they'd be proud to have me. I plan on sticking around here and changing things more to my liking.

If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to :poke: the moron.

If you want to pray, then hold a Prayer Meeting. If you want to hold a HOA meeting, then hold an HOA meeting. Don't mix the two.

"Lord, PLEASE don't let them tell us our HOA fees are going up again."

"Lord, PLEASE don't let them tell us our HOA fees are going up again."

:coffee:

:yahoo:

If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to :poke: the moron.

Who me?

Personally.... I choose the Lord....

I talk to Him all day long. It's a side affect of the Lyme I think.... There was a show on TV about God being one of us..... Turned out she had Lyme too.... funny

I'd say a bunch of prayers before I got the meeting. I just wondered if others want to go back to when things were simpler.... the 50's.... See it was Korea, Vietnam, and now Afganistan....

So I do a lot of praying about CRE and the people I know anyway.... I just thought others would like to join in.... that's all....

So I do a lot of praying about CRE and the people I know anyway.... I just thought others would like to join in.... that's all....

Maybe they would. Why don't you start a CRE prayer group separate and apart from the HOA meetings?

At least you admit it. I will paypal you the ticket money. :buddies:Quit being stupid and post that list of godless countries!

Maybe they would. Why don't you start a CRE prayer group separate and apart from the HOA meetings?

A prayer meeting/Bible study is always a good idea, anytime/anyplace (2 Tim 4:2, 1Thes 5:17, Eph 6:18), but it still wouldn't hurt to suggest it as part of the official meetings as well.

If the opening prayer at meetings does not fly, so be it.

Wear your Christian belief on your sleeve, but do it as Jesus would. We are assured that those that do not have those same beliefs blatantly display their opposition to it.

Quit being stupid and post that list of godless countries!

China, Russia and any other communist country you can think of....Of course there is also the decline of England, France and Germany as once rich in Christian tradition that is now extremely secularized. Ok.

China, Russia and any other communist country you can think of....Of course there is also the decline of England, France and Germany as once rich in Christian tradition that is now extremely secularized. Ok.

Don't leave out the good old USA and Canada joining those more and more secularized countries, where God-fearing people are forced to concede, by law now, to those that disdain biblical principles, but those peeps are not forced to accept Christian views......

Also don't forget, from a biblical perspective, every Islamic country, the vastness of India, the rest of northern Europe, etc.

Don't leave out the good old USA and Canada joining those more and more secularized countries, where God-fearing people are forced to concede, by law now, to those that disdain biblical principles, but those peeps are not forced to accept Christian views......

Also don't forget, from a biblical perspective, every Islamic country, the vastness of India, the rest of northern Europe, etc.

Many of these people are all about destroying the foundations of our country to secularize it. The very things that made it great are being attacked. They think they are bettering our country when they really are destroying from with in. :buddies:

Many of these people are all about destroying the foundations of our country to secularize it. The very things that made it great are being attacked. They think they are bettering our country when they really are destroying from with in. :buddies:
We're fixing it for the future generations.

We're destroying it for the future generations.

The arrogance of the left......

The arrogance of the left......
So anyone who isn't Christian is automatically "Left"?

A prayer meeting/Bible study is always a good idea, anytime/anyplace (2 Tim 4:2, 1Thes 5:17, Eph 6:18), but it still wouldn't hurt to suggest it as part of the official meetings as well.

If the opening prayer at meetings does not fly, so be it.

Wear your Christian belief on your sleeve, but do it as Jesus would. We are assured that those that do not have those same beliefs blatantly display their opposition to it.See, I completely disagree with this.

Hold a Prayer Meeting prior to or after the HOA meeting, but do NOT try to accomplish another agenda (prayer) when you are really there to serve the community and the HOA.

If I went to an HOA meeting, and someone/anyone were to open up with prayer, I'd want to punch that person. Seriously.

Going to meetings are a pain in the ass enough as it is, so it would just anger me that the entire point of the meeting is being clouded by someone else's desire to push (wither subtly or not), their beliefs on me. It'd make me want to never go to a meeting ever again.

But I'd still want to punch that person who initiated the prayer.

So anyone who isn't Christian is automatically "Left"?


Left Behind (http://leftbehind.com/)

See, I completely disagree with this.

Hold a Prayer Meeting prior to or after the HOA meeting, but do NOT try to accomplish another agenda (prayer) when you are really there to serve the community and the HOA.

If I went to an HOA meeting, and someone/anyone were to open up with prayer, I'd want to punch that person. Seriously.

Going to meetings are a pain in the ass enough as it is, so it would just anger me that the entire point of the meeting is being clouded by someone else's desire to push (wither subtly or not), their beliefs on me. It'd make me want to never go to a meeting ever again.

But I'd still want to punch that person who initiated the prayer.

Oh my. Like say at an opening session of Congress? Or the supreme court. Or a football game in the south, town council meetings all across the REAL america not the left wing California or New York.....

Oh my. Like say at an opening session of Congress? Or the supreme court. Or a football game in the south, town council meetings all across the REAL america not the left wing California or New York.....Well, I'm not a Congressman. I'm not on the Supreme Court. I don't go to football games in the south, and I don't go to town council meetings.

So, your point is moot to me.

And if you are insinuating that I am part of the Left wing, you couldn't be more wrong.

I just very strongly believe that religious beliefs are deeply personal, and should be held privately, not part of the public domain. Unless you go to a church under YOUR conditions, or partake of meetings with the understanding that there will be a religious convocation taking place. Going to an HOA meeting, with a prayer activity taking place, is a bait-and-switch act to me. I want to go to an HOA meeting, not listen to prayers.

It doesn't mean that I don't pray. It means that I pray under MY conditions, not when someone "forces" it down my throat.

Oh my. Like say at an opening session of Congress? Or the supreme court. Or a football game in the south, town council meetings all across the REAL america not the left wing California or New York.....

Can I get an example of a football game in the south? I've been to a panthers and LSu game in the last two years and have never seen such a silly thing.

Well, I'm not a Congressman. I'm not on the Supreme Court. I don't go to football games in the south, and I don't go to town council meetings.

So, your point is moot to me.

And if you are insinuating that I am part of the Left wing, you couldn't be more wrong.

.

If not you certainly have adopted their playbook for dismantling tradition and American institutions and rewriting history. :coffee:

If not you certainly have adopted their playbook for dismantling tradition and American institutions and rewriting history. :coffee:Whatever.

If not you certainly have adopted their playbook for dismantling tradition and American institutions and rewriting history. :coffee:

Be careful she likes to "punch people in the ####### face".

Oh my. Like say at an opening session of Congress? Or the supreme court. Or a football game in the south, town council meetings all across the REAL america not the left wing California or New York.....

How is a football game in a portion of the country part of the foundation of America?

First Amendment? Freedom of speech - that doggone little speed bump for all?

I agree with Bad Girl (minus some of the violent undertones. haha)
I go to church, taught at a catholic school for many years, and pray freuently-But I would not try to start a meeting with a prayer in a non-religious setting if I was't sure everyone was Catholic/Christian etc. Just because I have religious beliefs doesn't mean I can't be respectful of the fact that others have different beliefs and my prayers might make them uncorfortable or at the very least totally uninterested. Pre-meeting prayer group sounds like a good idea to me.

I agree with Bad Girl (minus some of the violent undertones. haha)
I go to church, taught at a catholic school for many years, and pray freuently-But I would not try to start a meeting with a prayer in a non-religious setting if I was't sure everyone was Catholic/Christian etc. Just because I have religious beliefs doesn't mean I can't be respectful of the fact that others have different beliefs and my prayers might make them uncorfortable or at the very least totally uninterested. Pre-meeting prayer group sounds like a good idea to me.

As foodcritic has been trying to point out, our congress and SCOTUS start their sessions with a prayer. I would bet nearly every government body does. I would support the idea that these are meetings. Put it to a vote :shrug:

In a world where we’re trying to convey an air of tolerance, we seem to become more intolerant. I really fail to see what’s so unbearable about sitting through a 15-20 second prayer. Is it really akin to sitting there listening to some drunken fool spew the f-bomb every other word?

As foodcritic has been trying to point out, our congress and SCOTUS start their sessions with a prayer. I would bet nearly every government body does. I would support the idea that these are meetings. Put it to a vote :shrug:

In a world where we’re trying to convey an air of tolerance, we seem to become more intolerant. I really fail to see what’s so unbearable about sitting through a 15-20 second prayer. Is it really akin to sitting there listening to some drunken fool spew the f-bomb every other word?
Do you think that the Muslim guy who was also elected would/should get the same right?

Do you think that the Muslim guy who was also elected would/should get the same right?

Is it a right?

Is it a right?

Right or privilege, who cares. The question sticks. Answer it, please and thank you.

Right or privilege, who cares. The question sticks. Answer it, please and thank you.

I would say if that is what they agree on, so be it. If they choose to rotate it around for members of other faiths, ok. One who disagrees with that faith either be respectful and quiet, or just do not be there for it.

If the chosen prayer for the meeting does not show up, default down the line until the next in line is there and willing to stand up and pray.

Right or privilege, who cares. The question sticks. Answer it, please and thank you.

Amendment 1 of the US constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Is practicing your faith a right? Your answer to that question answers Merlin's question.

Amendment 1 of the US constitution:

Is practicing your faith a right? Your answer to that question answers Merlin's question.
I think once you start holding prayers at public meetings where you must either be there or give up your right to participate in government, you've crossed the line and now are proselytizing.

Amendment 1 of the US constitution:



Is practicing your faith a right? Your answer to that question answers Merlin's question.

Let me re-phrase Merlin's question since you can't seem to grasp the spirit of it. Do you think that the Muslim guy who was also elected would/should get the same opportunity?

And let me ask my own. Would you sit by toleratantly while a Satanist asked for Satan's blessing before an HOA meeting you were attending? After all, the prayer to Satan would only take 15-20 seconds.

I think once you start holding prayers at public meetings where you must either be there or give up your right to participate in government, you've crossed the line and now are proselytizing.

What exactly does that mean? Pretty convoluted statement.

Are you saying if one who is scheduled to lead off with a prayer and does not show up to do so, that person loses his right to participate in government?

Also, what line have they crossed where they would now be proselytizing?

Like I said three posts ago, if one disagrees, just be respectful and quiet or not be there for that portion of the program/meeting. Just because one disagrees does not negate others the opportunity to participate.

That is that little word "tolerance" that so many want believers, especially Christian believers, to act out towards others, but those others do not have to reciprocate in the same manner towards Christians.

What exactly does that mean? Pretty convoluted statement.

Are you saying if one who is scheduled to lead off with a prayer and does not show up to do so, that person loses his right to participate in government?

Also, what line have they crossed where they would now be proselytizing?

Like I said three posts ago, if one disagrees, just be respectful and quiet or not be there for that portion of the program/meeting. Just because one disagrees does not negate others the opportunity to participate.

That is that little word "tolerance" that so many want believers, especially Christian believers, to act out towards others, but those others do not have to reciprocate in the same manner towards Christians.
I'm speaking from the audience point of view, they are the ones who are there to participate. They are being given a choice of being proselytized to or not being able to be involved in government. As for this paragraph "Like I said three posts ago, if one disagrees, just be respectful and quiet or not be there for that portion of the program/meeting. Just because one disagrees does not negate others the opportunity to participate." it can be paraphrased as "sit down and shut up until we're done"

What if Starman is in the audience? And what if the prayer at that meeting is from a Catholic who says a Hail Mary? Since Starman believes that isn't a valid prayer, by his definition the meeting has not been opened with a prayer. Now does Starman get to also have his prayer? In order to be fair, we better also let any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Satanists, etc. say their prayer also.

Then maybe, once all the praying is done, the meeting can start. Of course, we better keep that short so we have time to do all of the closing prayers.

IMO, prayer is a private act between me and God. It does not earn me any "get into heaven" points if I impose my prayer on anyone else. You pray your way, I'll pray my way, and stop trying to force your beliefs onto me.

Let me re-phrase Merlin's question since you can't seem to grasp the spirit of it. Do you think that the Muslim guy who was also elected would/should get the same opportunity?

And let me ask my own. Would you sit by toleratantly while a Satanist asked for Satan's blessing before an HOA meeting you were attending? After all, the prayer to Satan would only take 15-20 seconds.

My question does not change. Either the first amendment answers this or it doesn't.

What if Starman is in the audience? And what if the prayer at that meeting is from a Catholic who says a Hail Mary? Since Starman believes that isn't a valid prayer, by his definition the meeting has not been opened with a prayer. Now does Starman get to also have his prayer? In order to be fair, we better also let any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Satanists, etc. say their prayer also.

Then maybe, once all the praying is done, the meeting can start. Of course, we better keep that short so we have time to do all of the closing prayers.

IMO, prayer is a private act between me and God. It does not earn me any "get into heaven" points if I impose my prayer on anyone else. You pray your way, I'll pray my way, and stop trying to force your beliefs onto me.

Wouldn't Starman have to speak for Starman? If a prayer were held that I disagreed with, as long as it's respectful (IOW not laced with profanity and derision) I simply would respectly stand or sit quietly until they were done.

I think you folks are over-analyzing this. If the HOA votes to lead off their meetings with a prayer then they can decide how that's done. If they vote not to, the the obvious alternative would be for each individual to pray on their own prior to the meeting. Maybe they might decide to have each faith lead off a prayer of their own in different meetings.

The bottom line is, the first amendment PROTECTS our right to practice our faith. Being offended is not a valid reason to repeal that right.

Wouldn't Starman have to speak for Starman? If a prayer were held that I disagreed with, as long as it's respectful (IOW not laced with profanity and derision) I simply would respectly stand or sit quietly until they were done.

I think you folks are over-analyzing this. If the HOA votes to lead off their meetings with a prayer then they can decide how that's done. If they vote not to, the the obvious alternative would be for each individual to pray on their own prior to the meeting. Maybe they might decide to have each faith lead off a prayer of their own in different meetings.

The bottom line is, the first amendment PROTECTS our right to practice our faith. Being offended is not a valid reason to repeal that right.
The same amendment has been interpreted as placing a wall between church and state.

The same amendment has been interpreted as placing a wall between church and state.

Yet prayer still leads off congressional and Supreme Court sessions. :shrug:

The ONLY wall that the 1st stipulates is congress not being able to establish religion; any form of mandated government-sponsored religion. There is still that pesky little clause in there that states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". There should be no wall between a person and their liberty to freely practice their religion.

My question does not change. Either the first amendment answers this or it doesn't.

So in other words you would tolerate a Muslim's prayer or Satanist's invocation of Satan before an HOA meeting. That's all you had to say! :smile:

I'm speaking from the audience point of view, they are the ones who are there to participate. They are being given a choice of being proselytized to or not being able to be involved in government. As for this paragraph "Like I said three posts ago, if one disagrees, just be respectful and quiet or not be there for that portion of the program/meeting. Just because one disagrees does not negate others the opportunity to participate." it can be paraphrased as "sit down and shut up until we're done"

So what are you saying in your last sentence? You can paraphrase whatever you want, and also take it out of context at the same time.

You are way off base on your interpretation of my quoted sentence, 99. Since when does respectful silence and not disrupting a speaker constitute "sit down and shut up until we're done"?

I guess your take on the long-standing Roberts Rules of Order for conducting meetings in a civilized, orderly manner has been revised to reflect Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

So in other words you would tolerate a Muslim's prayer or Satanist's invocation of Satan before an HOA meeting. That's all you had to say! :smile:

Absolutely not. Non sectarian CHRISTIAN prayers. Like the founders.

So what are you saying in your last sentence? You can paraphrase whatever you want, and also take it out of context at the same time.

You are way off base on your interpretation of my quoted sentence, 99. Since when does respectful silence and not disrupting a speaker constitute "sit down and shut up until we're done"?

Maybe you can put it better, but as I read it, it says that you're going to do it and our only recourse is to either not be there or put up with it. This flies directly in the face of several Supreme court decisions that say that public forums are not the proper venue for religious displays.I guess your take on the long-standing Roberts Rules of Order for conducting meetings in a civilized, orderly manner has been revised to reflect Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.
You know as well as anyone that Roberts Rules of Order does not dictate an opening prayer, by even saying this you are showing that you'd rather attack the person than debate the idea.

So in other words you would tolerate a Muslim's prayer or Satanist's invocation of Satan before an HOA meeting. That's all you had to say! :smile:

I disagree with foodcritic. As long as it's not laced with profanity or hate or promotes discrimination that violates the 1st. I can deal with it.

You know as well as anyone that Roberts Rules of Order does not dictate an opening prayer, by even saying this you are showing that you'd rather attack the person than debate the idea.

Where did you get that idea that anybody said anything about dictating an opening prayer, especially Roberts Rules of Order? How could you possibly come up with that idea from my post, unless your line of attack is all you are looking for?

I absolutely agree it does not dictate opening prayer. But it does leave that, or any other option, open to the meeting to agree upon for further meeting openings, as per member vote on how or what order they want to conduct their meetings in. Roberts gives that option to all. If they vote for opening prayer/Pledge of Alligiance/national anthem/funky chicken dance, whatever, that's what they will open with, when a quorum is present.

The agenda for the following meeting can be/is set based on the votes of motions raised of the previous meeting. The order of the current meeting can be changed at any time, even during the meeting itself, based on a yay/nay vote of attending members.

You really need to think out your answers, M99, because you are stuck in "no comprendo" mode. All you seem bent on doing is belittling anybody that differs with you on any issue of prayer/Bible/Christianity..

I disagree with foodcritic. As long as it's not laced with profanity or hate or promotes discrimination that violates the 1st. I can deal with it.

Fair 'nuff! :huggy:

So anyway.... I agree that the best way to do the prayers is to invite anyone who would like to pray for the HOA and the Board... to a short meeting before the regular meeting. After all the Lord comes before all thing anyway... right!

That way it's open to the public, it's not in violation of the sunshine law, and it allows those who prefer not to join in to opt out....

Most of all... it still gets the job done....

:coffee:

So anyway.... I agree that the best way to do the prayers is to invite anyone who would like to pray for the HOA and the Board... to a short meeting before the regular meeting. After all the Lord comes before all thing anyway... right!

That way it's open to the public, it's not in violation of the sunshine law, and it allows those who prefer not to join in to opt out....

Most of all... it still gets the job done....

:coffee:

I don't want you to read this wrong, because I can tell you have a really kind heart and is in a really good place. But:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven…

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” - Matthew 5:1 and 5-8

Just something to consider.

I don't want you to read this wrong, because I can tell you have a really kind heart and is in a really good place. But:



Just something to consider.

I understand what you are saying.... like I said... I'm going to pray before every meeting with or without others.... prayer with others is a great thing to do whenever you can.... and I really don't want to miss that opportunity....

:coffee:

you cannot petition the lord with prayer

you cannot petition the lord with prayer

Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:6-7

:shrug:

If the HOA votes to lead off their meetings with a prayer then they can decide how that's done.

That's not what is being proposed. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all - except for spending money to send out ballots over this.

She is proposing unilaterally making prayer part of the meeting. She has also said that if it's a kind of prayer that she doesn't like, she would have another election to remove the offending person. It speaks volumes that she is looking at being elected as a way to exert power and impose her own will.

That's not what is being proposed. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all - except for spending money to send out ballots over this.

She is proposing unilaterally making prayer part of the meeting. She has also said that if it's a kind of prayer that she doesn't like, she would have another election to remove the offending person. It speaks volumes that she is looking at being elected as a way to exert power and impose her own will.

I must've missed that part. If this is accurate (hotcoffee can speak to that), then I'd disagree with it if I were part of the CRE HOA. She's also stated that she will just pray on her own prior to the meeting.

I must've missed that part. If this is accurate (hotcoffee can speak to that), then I'd disagree with it if I were part of the CRE HOA. She's also stated that she will just pray on her own prior to the meeting.

Here's the way I see it.... Prayer is good....

If anyone has a problem with me praying then I'll sit in my car, say a prayer, and then go to the meeting....

If anyone want to join me... I guess we can meet in the parking lot... or over by the trees.... or in another room in the building...

I asked... and that was pretty much a happy compromise... I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable....

I'm going to pray anyway... I always do... I've been praying before meetings for years and years.

:coffee:

Here's the way I see it.... Prayer is good....

If anyone has a problem with me praying then I'll sit in my car, say a prayer, and then go to the meeting....

If anyone want to join me... I guess we can meet in the parking lot... or over by the trees.... or in another room in the building...

I asked... and that was pretty much a happy compromise... I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable....

I'm going to pray anyway... I always do... I've been praying before meetings for years and years.

:coffee:

That is a good and considerate compromise. I didn't read every post but I did go through several pages and no one is saying you can't pray or that you shouldn't. If you want to do it and it makes you feel better I say go for it but do it away from everyone else that doesn't wish to partake.

As I suspect you realize, not everyone is christian and it would be incredibly inconsiderate to try to force a prayer at every meeting. Few things are more annoying than someone forcing their beliefs down everyone's throat.

That is a good and considerate compromise. I didn't read every post but I did go through several pages and no one is saying you can't pray or that you shouldn't. If you want to do it and it makes you feel better I say go for it but do it away from everyone else that doesn't wish to partake.

As I suspect you realize, not everyone is christian and it would be incredibly inconsiderate to try to force a prayer at every meeting. Few things are more annoying than someone forcing their beliefs down everyone's throat.

I understand.... that's why I started this thread in the first place.

It was a hard question to formulate... but it was well discussed... thanks everyone....