Charles County to Get Speed Cameras | NBC4 Washington (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Charles-County-to-Get-Speed-Cameras-161298795.html)


Good! Especially around schools

Charles County to Get Speed Cameras | NBC4 Washington (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Charles-County-to-Get-Speed-Cameras-161298795.html)


Good! Especially around schools

Yeah, I got the email earlier. This one's sure to ruffle some feathers.

Yeah, I got the email earlier. This one's sure to ruffle some feathers.

that it ruffles any feathers. It is the newest revenue stream for the county government. That's all it is, another TAX and this is on top of the county raising our income TAX and property TAX! We must continue to feed the beast!

So, its ok to speed in school zones????

So your upset you have to not speed around schools? This is not a TAX as you say because you have an option to paying it. By that I mean you can either speed through a school zone where there are kids, or you can slow your ass down to for a small stretch of road. Not only that, but you still get a 12 miles an hour buffer.

that it ruffles any feathers. It is the newest revenue stream for the county government. That's all it is, another TAX and this is on top of the county raising our income TAX and property TAX! We must continue to feed the beast!How do you figure it is a tax?? A tax is something you HAVE to pay. This is a penalty (until the SCOTUS gets it).

If you don't break the law by speeding, you don't pay. Not a tax.

Charles County to Get Speed Cameras | NBC4 Washington (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Charles-County-to-Get-Speed-Cameras-161298795.html)


Good! Especially around schools

Ah, no, not good. This isnt about safety, dont be fooled. If it were about safety, the fines would be significant, there would be reporting and points. But there are not. Why? Simple, it those things were in there, they might actually act as a deterrent, and the company running this for the county wouldn't make any money, and the county wouldn't make money.

Lets see if they do what a lot of other counties have done, and expand the schools zones, and make new posted school zones to take advantage of higher traffic roads to make more money.

Lastly, lets ask ourselves, what problem are we solving. How many instances of children being hurt by speeders do we have, really? Up around Baltimore, the camera company hod to dig up a 20 year old tragedy to find one.

I challenge you to look beyond the press release, and see the truth behind this. Companies make millions selling this service, and governments manke millions deploying it. And there is no benefit to the ctitizens. Government should be solving problems, and law enforcement of profit is a very bad idea.

Ah, no, not good. This isnt about safety, dont be fooled. If it were about safety, the fines would be significant, there would be reporting and points. But there are not. Why? Simple, it those things were in there, they might actually act as a deterrent, and the company running this for the county wouldn't make any money, and the county wouldn't make money.

Lets see if they do what a lot of other counties have done, and expand the schools zones, and make new posted school zones to take advantage of higher traffic roads to make more money.

Lastly, lets ask ourselves, what problem are we solving. How many instances of children being hurt by speeders do we have, really? Up around Baltimore, the camera company hod to dig up a 20 year old tragedy to find one.

I challenge you to look beyond the press release, and see the truth behind this. Companies make millions selling this service, and governments manke millions deploying it. And there is no benefit to the ctitizens. Government should be solving problems, and law enforcement of profit is a very bad idea.

The problem we are solving is punishing those that break the law...And if that adds to government coffers, thats ok with me.

Everything else being the same, would this headline get the same attention if it read...

"Charles County to enforce school speed zones with live officers"

So, the purpose of this enforcement is to make money? Not to deter the offense in the first place? Listen to the officials, it's supposed to be about deterrence. But then why isn't the fine higher? Why are there no points? Simple. The companies doing this do it for profit, and if people stop offending, the company makes no money. So when the companies ghost wrote the law allowing automated enforcement, they make sure they keep the fines low and no points so people dont vote camera enforcement out.

Can we get past the thought that anyone who opposes this is intent on blowing through school zones at 90mph? I dont want to speed through school zones, and I dont support those who do, okay.

How about if the county makes up a new school zone that was never there before, or drops the speed limit in an exiting zone? Still okay with that? It has happened here in MD multiple times. Hell, in Baltimore, they actually installed cameras in front of a school that has been closed for years. The point is that making money on enforcement leads inevitably to pushing the limits to make more money. Not enough money rolling in? Expand the zone. Still not enough? Make new zones. Citizens costing you money by challenging the tickets in court? Tell them there is no defense, it's guilty, the cameras are infallible.

Dont just blow me off as a speed demon whos sad that he cant go al Deathrace 2000 past a school for the blind. Think about what it means that we are practicing enforcement, not for any reason involving safety, but soley for money. Are we okay with that?

Dont just blow me off as a speed demon whos sad that he cant go al Deathrace 2000 past a school for the blind. Think about what it means that we are practicing enforcement, not for any reason involving safety, but soley for money. Are we okay with that?I am okay with it because I truly believe the majority of the population treats speed limit signs as suggestions rather that the maximum allowed on that stretch of road. I fully believe that we are much better off with implementing ways to deter speeding rather than just letting everybody do what they want. You keep forgetting that the MAJORITY of folks who blow down the road or through a neighborhood are not as trained, insightful and safety conscious as you are always telling us that you are... there are regulations and limitations in society for a reason. We don't get to assume that we are special and those regulations and limitations don't apply to us so screw everybody else.

So, the purpose of this enforcement is to make money? Not to deter the offense in the first place? Listen to the officials, it's supposed to be about deterrence. But then why isn't the fine higher? Why are there no points? Simple. The companies doing this do it for profit, and if people stop offending, the company makes no money. So when the companies ghost wrote the law allowing automated enforcement, they make sure they keep the fines low and no points so people dont vote camera enforcement out.

Can we get past the thought that anyone who opposes this is intent on blowing through school zones at 90mph? I dont want to speed through school zones, and I dont support those who do, okay.

How about if the county makes up a new school zone that was never there before, or drops the speed limit in an exiting zone? Still okay with that? It has happened here in MD multiple times. Hell, in Baltimore, they actually installed cameras in front of a school that has been closed for years. The point is that making money on enforcement leads inevitably to pushing the limits to make more money. Not enough money rolling in? Expand the zone. Still not enough? Make new zones. Citizens costing you money by challenging the tickets in court? Tell them there is no defense, it's guilty, the cameras are infallible.

Dont just blow me off as a speed demon whos sad that he cant go al Deathrace 2000 past a school for the blind. Think about what it means that we are practicing enforcement, not for any reason involving safety, but soley for money. Are we okay with that?

There are some that will never understand this. They are ok with the government telling them how to live and taxing, I mean penalizing their every breath. I on the other hand, do not like government intrusion in my life - less government means happier TPD!

So your upset you have to not speed around schools? This is not a TAX as you say because you have an option to paying it. By that I mean you can either speed through a school zone where there are kids, or you can slow your ass down to for a small stretch of road. Not only that, but you still get a 12 miles an hour buffer.

:confused: what buffer? MD law has a fine for 1 mph over the speed limit

Well statistically it is behavior modifying. You should look that up. If it was about money why only charge $40? Why not play it like DC and start the fines at $150 and double them as the speeds get higher? The reason there are no points is Maryland does not use a face camera, if they did, they would be able to identify the driver and use points if needed. The tickets created are on the car, and you can't suspend the car's right to drive, and without a positive way to identify the driver, like being pulled over by a police officer, points can't be used. Also, wouldn't you rather have the officers patrol the problematic areas in The Dorf than sitting outside a school pulling people over?

:confused: what buffer? MD law has a fine for 1 mph over the speed limit

You should read the article first. Maryland has a 12 mph buffer for photo enforcement. Meaning if the speed limit is 30 you won't trigger the camera until 42 mph.

I know where the red light cameras are now on my way to work. I will learn where the speed cams are too. I will not get caught. They have succeeded in slowing me down and stopped me from chancing the yellow/red. Easy peasy.

I know where the red light cameras are now on my way to work. I will learn where the speed cams are too. I will not get caught. They have succeeded in slowing me down and stopped me from chancing the yellow/red. Easy peasy.:yay:

I am okay with it because I truly believe the majority of the population treats speed limit signs as suggestions rather that the maximum allowed on that stretch of road. I fully believe that we are much better off with implementing ways to deter speeding rather than just letting everybody do what they want. You keep forgetting that the MAJORITY of folks who blow down the road or through a neighborhood are not as trained, insightful and safety conscious as you are always telling us that you are... there are regulations and limitations in society for a reason. We don't get to assume that we are special and those regulations and limitations don't apply to us so screw everybody else.

So you will be ok when the government starts censoring our internet and limiting our internet speeds? You will be ok with the government telling you how many miles you can drive your car per year and taxing, I mean penalizing you for every mile you drive over that limit? You are ok with the government telling you how much soda you can drink and which foods you can eat? The point is - where does it stop with big brother? They want to penalize us for everything in order to spread the wealth to those who have not. If it were not for citizens such as glhs fighting for what America was founded for - FREEDOM - we would be living in 50's era Russia or current day Cuba where EVERYTHING we say and do is censored and limited.

So you will be ok when the government starts censoring our internet and limiting our internet speeds? You will be ok with the government telling you how many miles you can drive your car per year and taxing, I mean penalizing you for every mile you drive over that limit? You are ok with the government telling you how much soda you can drink and which foods you can eat? The point is - where does it stop with big brother? They want to penalize us for everything in order to spread the wealth to those who have not. If it were not for citizens such as glhs fighting for what America was founded for - FREEDOM - we would be living in 50's era Russia or current day Cuba where EVERYTHING we say and do is censored and limited.
All successful civilizations including what we'd consider to be backwood colonies or tribes around the world have accepted and practiced rules and regulations. It stops being successful when some start to think about only themselves rather than the what benefits their society as a whole that it all starts to crumble. Take JPC for example... his complete and utter belief that it because he doesn't feel like working it is okay for him to sit back on his ass and mooch off of a system that was designed to help others regain their footing and become productive in some form or fashion again.

We have empowered our government to feel the need to over regulate us because we are becoming a society of folks who believe we only have to give a crap about ourselves and to hell with how it affects others. If we wouldn't continue to be stupid, we wouldn't give them the rope they then use to hang us.

So you will be ok when the government starts censoring our internet and limiting our internet speeds? You will be ok with the government telling you how many miles you can drive your car per year and taxing, I mean penalizing you for every mile you drive over that limit? You are ok with the government telling you how much soda you can drink and which foods you can eat? The point is - where does it stop with big brother? They want to penalize us for everything in order to spread the wealth to those who have not. If it were not for citizens such as glhs fighting for what America was founded for - FREEDOM - we would be living in 50's era Russia or current day Cuba where EVERYTHING we say and do is censored and limited.
:killingme:killingme

All I can do...

:killingme:killingme

:killingme:killingme

All I can do...

:killingme:killingme
That should have been my response too. :doh: :lmao:

So you will be ok when the government starts censoring our internet and limiting our internet speeds? You will be ok with the government telling you how many miles you can drive your car per year and taxing, I mean penalizing you for every mile you drive over that limit? You are ok with the government telling you how much soda you can drink and which foods you can eat? The point is - where does it stop with big brother? They want to penalize us for everything in order to spread the wealth to those who have not. If it were not for citizens such as glhs fighting for what America was founded for - FREEDOM - we would be living in 50's era Russia or current day Cuba where EVERYTHING we say and do is censored and limited.

So you think enforcing a law that has been in place for many many years shouldn't be done because it may cause you to follow that law for a small stretch of road? If I could talk Calvert into it I would let them put one in my front yard.

I am okay with it because I truly believe the majority of the population treats speed limit signs as suggestions rather that the maximum allowed on that stretch of road. I fully believe that we are much better off with implementing ways to deter speeding rather than just letting everybody do what they want. You keep forgetting that the MAJORITY of folks who blow down the road or through a neighborhood are not as trained, insightful and safety conscious as you are always telling us that you are... there are regulations and limitations in society for a reason. We don't get to assume that we are special and those regulations and limitations don't apply to us so screw everybody else.

Well statistically it is behavior modifying. You should look that up. If it was about money why only charge $40? Why not play it like DC and start the fines at $150 and double them as the speeds get higher? The reason there are no points is Maryland does not use a face camera, if they did, they would be able to identify the driver and use points if needed. The tickets created are on the car, and you can't suspend the car's right to drive, and without a positive way to identify the driver, like being pulled over by a police officer, points can't be used. Also, wouldn't you rather have the officers patrol the problematic areas in The Dorf than sitting outside a school pulling people over?

You should read the article first. Maryland has a 12 mph buffer for photo enforcement. Meaning if the speed limit is 30 you won't trigger the camera until 42 mph.

Kwill, I am okay with enforcing the law, nobody is above the law, agreed. My disagreement is with automated enforcement solely for money. Wrapped in hypocritical concern for the children, who are not endangered to any significant degree by people who do speed in school zones. Like the red light cameras, we are purporting to solve non-existent problems (statistically speaking) by using piddling fines.

Corrolin, what stats? What is the source of those stats? Sadly, when the folks doing the studies have a financial stake in the outcome, it's hard to trust them. The fines are low because the companies know that higher fines lead to quicker citizen revolt. And that's significant, because I think out of the 14 times automated enforcement has faced the voters, it's lost 13 times. DC gets away with huge fines because they know a great majority of the people getting those tickets A) have the disposable income to not sweat it, and B) are not DC citizens, and so cant vote it out. Officers enforcing the law are a much better bet. They can use discretion, they can come into contact with the lawbreakers, and they can issue real penalties. Ones with bite. NOt ones meant to make money.

And the 12mph is another one of those "make the pain less and folks wont get upset".

Well when a speed camera is set up catching 3000 violations a day goes to under 500 a day, you seem to see a curve in behavior.

Well when a speed camera is set up catching 3000 violations a day goes to under 500 a day, you seem to see a curve in behavior.
Exactly!!

Wrapped in hypocritical concern for the children, who are not endangered to any significant degree by people who do speed in school zones.

That is the most ####ing ridiculous thing I've heard in a very long time.

If you don't want to live with our laws and penalties, get the hell out of our country. It's stupid crap like this that just pisses me off and makes me want to climb a bell tower. Or wish I was a cop so I could bust a few heads.

DON'T SPEED IN THE DAMNED SCHOOL ZONE AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO PAY A PENALTY. DON'T BREAK THE FREAKING LAW AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

No. Really. That's how freaking simple it is. Same with red light cameras.

:banghead:

Well when a speed camera is set up catching 3000 violations a day goes to under 500 a day, you seem to see a curve in behavior.

That is the most ####ing ridiculous thing I've heard in a very long time.

If you don't want to live with our laws and penalties, get the hell out of our country. It's stupid crap like this that just pisses me off and makes me want to climb a bell tower. Or wish I was a cop so I could bust a few heads.

DON'T SPEED IN THE DAMNED SCHOOL ZONE AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO PAY A PENALTY. DON'T BREAK THE FREAKING LAW AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

No. Really. That's how freaking simple it is. Same with red light cameras.

:banghead:


Coro, and that statistic comes from? And, again, we come back to if this actually makes anyone safer, which, if you recall, was the point in the forst place. To make kids safer, right? If we had no incidents in schools zones caused by speeding, and we still had none after the cameras, what gains have we made? If we have had no incidents, and continue to have none, then the only gain has been money to the county. I submit that this is the real reason, money. You folks, who normally wont trust a politician to tie his shoes without some ulterior motive, suddenly are overcome with belief in their innate goodness.

Vrai, where have I said the law shouldn't be enforced. Get off your misplaced outrage for a minute and think. Have I said I don't want laws, or want them enforced? In fact, I have said I want more enforcement, enforcement by officers, and harsher penaties. Real ones, not ones meant to make money.

When the automated enforcement law was up for debate, there were provisions proposed that would have ensured this law was done solely for safety, make it revenue neutral, make state employees pay for citations they incurred, make the contracts on a straight fee for service basis, XX amount a year, regardless of amount of citations received.

Every single provision meant to remove the profit motive was shot down, except the contract one. That one has been ignored by both the municipalities and the courts. If it wasn't about money, why are these things so?

Vrai, where have I said the law shouldn't be enforced. Get off your misplaced outrage for a minute and think. Have I said I don't want laws, or want them enforced? In fact, I have said I want more enforcement, enforcement by officers, and harsher penaties. Real ones, not ones meant to make money.

Explain to me why it is wrong for the state to make money off this.

So you'd be for it if the fine were more? And since it isn't, you go meh and think it sucks?

Coro, and that statistic comes from? And, again, we come back to if this actually makes anyone safer, which, if you recall, was the point in the forst place. To make kids safer, right? If we had no incidents in schools zones caused by speeding, and we still had none after the cameras, what gains have we made? If we have had no incidents, and continue to have none, then the only gain has been money to the county. I submit that this is the real reason, money. You folks, who normally wont trust a politician to tie his shoes without some ulterior motive, suddenly are overcome with belief in their innate goodness.

Vrai, where have I said the law shouldn't be enforced. Get off your misplaced outrage for a minute and think. Have I said I don't want laws, or want them enforced? In fact, I have said I want more enforcement, enforcement by officers, and harsher penaties. Real ones, not ones meant to make money.

When the automated enforcement law was up for debate, there were provisions proposed that would have ensured this law was done solely for safety, make it revenue neutral, make state employees pay for citations they incurred, make the contracts on a straight fee for service basis, XX amount a year, regardless of amount of citations received.

Every single provision meant to remove the profit motive was shot down, except the contract one. That one has been ignored by both the municipalities and the courts. If it wasn't about money, why are these things so?

You should save your breath. I've seen you over the last year or two post factual article and court case after article and court case about the corruption of these cameras. People don't want to hear it, they only want to ##### about things that directly affect them today.

My question:

Should we do away with all laws that have a financial penalty?

I understand the objection that it becomes about money rather than safety, but there are lot of minor crimes that come with a fine. Speeding, parking illegally, other assorted traffic violations, littering, building code violations, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I can't think of off the top of my head. Should the laws be repealed, or should those offenses carry a jail sentence?

And one more question:

If the objection is against mechanical means of enforcement, are you willing for your taxes to go up so that the state/county can put a cop at every traffic light and several manning every school zone?

Explain to me why it is wrong for the state to make money off this.

So you'd be for it if the fine were more? And since it isn't, you go meh and think it sucks?

It's not wrong for the state to make money off this, by itself. It's wrong to do it solely for money. Which is the point. When counties and town and cities, before the cameras, had speed limits that matched the roadway, and were only on the roads right next to the schools, you would expect those things for a school zone focused on safety. But when they suddenly, right before emplacing cameras, expand the zones outwards, and/or suddenly drop the limit by 10mph, you have to wonder why. Was there a change in the threat level to the children? What changed?

My question:

Should we do away with all laws that have a financial penalty?

I understand the objection that it becomes about money rather than safety, but there are lot of minor crimes that come with a fine. Speeding, parking illegally, other assorted traffic violations, littering, building code violations, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I can't think of off the top of my head. Should the laws be repealed, or should those offenses carry a jail sentence?

And one more question:

If the objection is against mechanical means of enforcement, are you willing for your taxes to go up so that the state/county can put a cop at every traffic light and several manning every school zone?


Those things do carry fines, and points, as a means of deterrence, and the fines are set that way. Go faster, larger fine. Have more elevators out for compliance, larger fine. I do like your choice, only jail or no law at all, troll much:oldman::killingme I have said, make the fines the same as if an officer caught you. The lack of facing your accuser lets out the points thing, but if DC can fine you over $100 dollars with a camera, why cant Maryland? I already explained that, it set to make money, but not enrage the population.

I would, but heres the key, we dont need an officer at every school zone, if there were a real problem, they would be there. They are not posted there, not due to lack of funds, but because we don't have a problem that needs solved. Look for cases of children hit in school zones, go ahead, you wont find many/any. Like the St Marys College pedestrian issue, its a thing made up to justify another thing. One to spend money, the other to make it.

If the objection is against mechanical means of enforcement, are you willing for your taxes to go up so that the state/county can put a cop at every traffic light and several manning every school zone?

Well now... that would be a tax on everyone instead of a penalty on those who chose to break the law. :ohwell:

Well now... that would be a tax on everyone instead of a penalty on those who chose to break the law. :ohwell:

Do you want safety for the kids or not? That's supposedly the point, right? Are we trying to make money or safety?

That is the most ####ing ridiculous thing I've heard in a very long time.

If you don't want to live with our laws and penalties, get the hell out of our country. It's stupid crap like this that just pisses me off and makes me want to climb a bell tower. Or wish I was a cop so I could bust a few heads.

DON'T SPEED IN THE DAMNED SCHOOL ZONE AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO PAY A PENALTY. DON'T BREAK THE FREAKING LAW AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

No. Really. That's how freaking simple it is. Same with red light cameras.

:banghead:

What NBC Washington missed is that they're going to be activating the cameras this summer, when school is not in session, and begin enforcing it when school is not in session.

So, basically, the speed limit is 40mph on Smallwood Drive. When the school zone is active, the speed limit is 25mph. If you go 40mph, you're going to get ticketed, automatically, even though school is not in session. Nevermind the fact that they never replaced the flashing school zone speed limit sign that was knocked down (I personally called to report this to the county three months ago).

What NBC Washington missed is that they're going to be activating the cameras this summer, when school is not in session, and begin enforcing it when school is not in session.

So, basically, the speed limit is 40mph on Smallwood Drive. When the school zone is active, the speed limit is 25mph. If you go 40mph, you're going to get ticketed, automatically, even though school is not in session.
Please prove this.

DON'T SPEED IN THE DAMNED SCHOOL ZONE AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO PAY A PENALTY. DON'T BREAK THE FREAKING LAW AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

No. Really. That's how freaking simple it is. Same with red light cameras.

:banghead:Falling on deaf ears. They just don't get it. :lol:

Please prove this.

From the CCSO press release:
Notification signs will be placed at all speed enforcement locations so that motorists will be aware that they are approaching a speed enforcement zone.

The Sheriff’s Office plans to begin the program with three portable camera units. The program is expected to be in full operation by July 30, 2012.

From the CCSO press release:That does not say you will be ticketed for going over 25 mph when school is not in session. Try again. :coffee:

Please prove this.

Cant speak yet to what they will do, but the trend shows whats likely to happen...

Glenarden speed cameras placed in areas without schools | WJLA.com (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/04/glenarden-speed-cameras-placed-in-areas-without-schools-75372.html)

PG county placed cams not on the street with the school, but one within the 1/2 mile limit.

Maryland Speed Cameras: No Spring Break for School Zone Speed Cameras (http://www.stopbigbrothermd.org/2011/04/no-spring-break-for-school-zone-speed.html)

Law allows that while cams cannot issue citations outside school hours, or on weekends, they are not restricted to days when school is in session, so most, if not all, programs operate year round. Again, it's about money, not safety.


Speed cameras deployed near Bowie school - WTOP.com (http://www.wtop.com/41/2737663/Speed-cameras-deployed-near-Bowie-school)

"The cameras are active Monday through Friday -- from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. -- and will catch drivers going at least 12 miles per hour over the speed limit.

Police say the cameras also will operate when school is not in session."

Falling on deaf ears. They just don't get it. :lol:

What dont we get? That if you dont speed, you wont get a ticket? Sure, got that, and for the 55,098 time, no problem with folks getting tickets for speeding through school zones. It's the for-profit, not for safety aspect. This type of enforcement begs for shenanigans. Like expanding zones, putting in new zones, lowering limits only for the cameras benefit. Care to address those things?

That does not say you will be ticketed for going over 40 mph. try again. :coffee:

It says that enforcement will be in full effect on July 30th. School is not in session for July 30th. They are beginning enforcement next week, when school is not in session. There will be a one month warning period beginning next week. So, they will begin dishing out fines around August 9th, when school is not in session. Dishing out fines before school starts isn't protecting anyone.

The camera on Smallwood Drive is the only one that I, as a resident, have concern about. All the rest, you'd basically have to be driving at 60 mph to get a ticket and, well, if you see flashing yellow lights and a school building and still elect to go 60 or 70 mph, well, that's your own fault.

As for the Smallwood Drive camera, I'm going to have to place calls on that one. Having lived right across the street from Wade ES before, I personally think the speed limit going through that school zone should be 25 mph 24/7/365 anyways.

long overdue, I like user penalties/taxes. Hopefully they raise the fees so they can raise enough money to lower taxes.

long overdue, I like user penalties/taxes. Hopefully they raise the fees so they can raise enough money to lower taxes.


But they cant. Max fines for automated enforcement are set by Maryland law. $75 for RLCs, $40 for speed cams. And we have talked about why.

Cant speak yet to what they will do, but the trend shows whats likely to happen...

Glenarden speed cameras placed in areas without schools | WJLA.com (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/04/glenarden-speed-cameras-placed-in-areas-without-schools-75372.html) So who said the cams are restricted to school areas?? :confused:

PG county placed cams not on the street with the school, but one within the 1/2 mile limit. See comment above.

Maryland Speed Cameras: No Spring Break for School Zone Speed Cameras (http://www.stopbigbrothermd.org/2011/04/no-spring-break-for-school-zone-speed.html)

Law allows that while cams cannot issue citations outside school hours, or on weekends, they are not restricted to days when school is in session, so most, if not all, programs operate year round. Again, it's about money, not safety. So what? I bet the law says they can't issue you a ticket for going over 25 if school is not in session.


Speed cameras deployed near Bowie school - WTOP.com (http://www.wtop.com/41/2737663/Speed-cameras-deployed-near-Bowie-school)

"The cameras are active Monday through Friday -- from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. -- and will catch drivers going at least 12 miles per hour over the speed limit.

Police say the cameras also will operate when school is not in session."Ok what's your point? I repeat: "I bet the law says they can't issue you a ticket for going over 25 if school is not in session."

What dont we get? That if you dont speed, you wont get a ticket? Sure, got that, and for the 55,098 time, no problem with folks getting tickets for speeding through school zones. It's the for-profit, not for safety aspect. This type of enforcement begs for shenanigans. Like expanding zones, putting in new zones, lowering limits only for the cameras benefit. Care to address those things?You may already have but would you post where a speed limit was reduced so a camera could be placed there?

It says that enforcement will be in full effect on July 30th. School is not in session for July 30th. They are beginning enforcement next week, when school is not in session. There will be a one month warning period beginning next week. So, they will begin dishing out fines around August 9th, when school is not in session. Dishing out fines before school starts isn't protecting anyone. So what? I bet the law says they can't issue you a ticket for going over 25 if school is not in session.

The camera on Smallwood Drive is the only one that I, as a resident, have concern about. All the rest, you'd basically have to be driving at 60 mph to get a ticket and, well, if you see flashing yellow lights and a school building and still elect to go 60 or 70 mph, well, that's your own fault. Yay, we agree!! :clap:

As for the Smallwood Drive camera, I'm going to have to place calls on that one. Having lived right across the street from Wade ES before, I personally think the speed limit going through that school zone should be 25 mph 24/7/365 anyways.So they are there to make money. I'll say it for the 55,876 time: "Don't speed or run red lights and they don't make money." :dingding:

If it were really only for revenue and not safety, do you think there might be better places to put the camera that would give it more exposure to speeding?

Im all for the cameras, I would like to see one in front of my house to tag the ass wipes that think 70 is acceptable on my road.

Coro, and that statistic comes from? And, again, we come back to if this actually makes anyone safer, which, if you recall, was the point in the forst place. To make kids safer, right? If we had no incidents in schools zones caused by speeding, and we still had none after the cameras, what gains have we made? If we have had no incidents, and continue to have none, then the only gain has been money to the county. I submit that this is the real reason, money. You folks, who normally wont trust a politician to tie his shoes without some ulterior motive, suddenly are overcome with belief in their innate goodness.

Vrai, where have I said the law shouldn't be enforced. Get off your misplaced outrage for a minute and think. Have I said I don't want laws, or want them enforced? In fact, I have said I want more enforcement, enforcement by officers, and harsher penaties. Real ones, not ones meant to make money.

When the automated enforcement law was up for debate, there were provisions proposed that would have ensured this law was done solely for safety, make it revenue neutral, make state employees pay for citations they incurred, make the contracts on a straight fee for service basis, XX amount a year, regardless of amount of citations received.

Every single provision meant to remove the profit motive was shot down, except the contract one. That one has been ignored by both the municipalities and the courts. If it wasn't about money, why are these things so?

It comes from professional experience, and results I have seen with my own eyes.

If it were really only for revenue and not safety, do you think there might be better places to put the camera that would give it more exposure to speeding?

Im all for the cameras, I would like to see one in front of my house to tag the ass wipes that think 70 is acceptable on my road.

They're putting them in school zones along common routes (Smallwood Drive, MD-5, MD-228, MD-6, MD-210).

However, as I stated before, all of those school zones minus Smallwood Dr run the same speed limit during school hours as they do any other time. In all but one of these enforced zones, you'd have to be hauling ass to get a ticket. In fact, it's more likely you'd get a ticket in those areas from a state trooper in most of those areas. You get a 12 mph buffer with the camera. You wouldn't be so lucky with a state trooper or one of Charles County's finest.

They're putting them in school zones along common routes (Smallwood Drive, MD-5, MD-228, MD-6, MD-210).

However, as I stated before, all of those school zones minus Smallwood Dr run the same speed limit during school hours as they do any other time. In all but one of these enforced zones, you'd have to be hauling ass to get a ticket. In fact, it's more likely you'd get a ticket in those areas from a state trooper in most of those areas. You get a 12 mph buffer with the camera. You wouldn't be so lucky with a state trooper or one of Charles County's finest.

If people dont want to pay the fine, then the simple solution is to slow down in those areas.
Hey,
What if everyone slowed down and there were no tickets issued, would the county end up removing them because they cost more to maintain than they make?
People could turn this around and burn the county

If people dont want to pay the fine, then the simple solution is to slow down in those areas.
Hey,
What if everyone slowed down and there were no tickets issued, would the county end up removing them because they cost more to maintain than they make? People could turn this around and burn the county

That would never happen. People can't help but to haul ass on 210, 228 and 5. :killingme

That would never happen. People can't help but to haul ass on 210, 228 and 5. :killingme

Same with 2/4 heading south. I went to Veras last week, I was doing about 10 over in the right lane, people were passing me and flipping me off :killingme

Okay Baja, you first.....

So who said the cams are restricted to school areas??

Speed Cameras Coming to Some City School Zones - Annapolis, MD Patch (http://annapolis.patch.com/articles/speed-cameras-coming-to-some-city-school-zones)

Alderwoman Sheila Finlayson (D-4th Ward), chairwoman of the council’s public safety committee that gave the legislation a favorable recommendation, said after the meeting that she was glad it passed.

“I’m very pleased. You know the state gave us enabling legislation to allow these cameras in school zones. They’ve restricted how much we can charge and that’s why the fee is only $40 so that it won’t be abusive. So it is all about public safety,” Finlayson said.

As noted in the legislation, “Senate Bill 277 passed by the Maryland General Assembly allows municipalities to use photo speed monitoring systems in school zones and to issue citations or warnings to owners of vehicles that speed in excess of at least 12 miles per hour above the posted speed limit.”

Whats funny is that that article manages to find a local incident that involves a car and a pedestrian. But then says it was pedestrian error:killingme


BILL INFO-2009 Regular Session-SB 277 (http://mlis.state.md.us/2009rs/billfile/SB0277.htm) (note this bill was passed and signed into law unaltered)

Synopsis:

Authorizing in all counties and municipalities in the State and in specified highway work zones the use of speed monitoring systems to enforce specified highway speed laws under specified standards and procedures; limiting the operation of a speed monitoring system in a school zone; requiring that revenues from civil fines collected through use of a work zone speed control system under the Act be distributed to a specified special fund to be used only for specified purposes; etc.

Montgomery County has an exception, in that they, as the pilot program, can put them on any surface street with a speed limit 35mph or lower. And we know what the Sheriffs troopers thought about that program. After being hit with tickets for violations when not responding, they blew through to trigger them and flipped them off, then hid behind the union.

So what? I bet the law says they can't issue you a ticket for going over 25 if school is not in session.

The law says that the cameras can only be active from Mon-Friday from 6am to 8pm (covers ball games, etc). But heres the catch. It never says anything about school being in session, so on holidays and breaks, they keep rolling.

MGA Statutes Text Page 1 (http://mlis.state.md.us/asp/web_statutes.asp?gtr&21-809)

A speed monitoring system in a school zone may operate only Monday through Friday between 6:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m.

So, they can, and do operate today, for instance, between 6 and 8, and all summer long.

That should settle your hash:) Unless you can find anything disputing that. I have state bills, state law, news reports from reputable local news sources.

BCP, see above, state law says nope, only in school zones. But heres the catch. 210 up by the beltway? Not one school on the highway, but the municipality has placed them there because there are a couple of schools back off the road less than 1/2 a mile. You want enforcement, call the local barrak, I know the State police here almost live on Chancellors Run.

Corrolin, so, nothing in writing? And even so, if the amount of speeders (only ones 12mph and higher, 10-11 over, thats cool:)) has dropped, what about the incident data? Before and after? How many incidents were there before and after? Of course, anyone can claim professional knowledge, last guy that did, was a +20 year accident investigator, and we had a good conversation about RLCs.

Well when a speed camera is set up catching 3000 violations a day goes to under 500 a day, you seem to see a curve in behavior.

And then they'll expand the school zone or lower the spreed limit. Money is the crack cocaine of government.

Okay Baja, you first.....

Speed Cameras Coming to Some City School Zones - Annapolis, MD Patch (http://annapolis.patch.com/articles/speed-cameras-coming-to-some-city-school-zones)

Whats funny is that that article manages to find a local incident that involves a car and a pedestrian. But then says it was pedestrian error:killingme

BILL INFO-2009 Regular Session-SB 277 (http://mlis.state.md.us/2009rs/billfile/SB0277.htm) (note this bill was passed and signed into law unaltered)

Montgomery County has an exception, in that they, as the pilot program, can put them on any surface street with a speed limit 35mph or lower. And we know what the Sheriffs troopers thought about that program. After being hit with tickets for violations when not responding, they blew through to trigger them and flipped them off, then hid behind the union.

The law says that the cameras can only be active from Mon-Friday from 6am to 8pm (covers ball games, etc). But heres the catch. It never says anything about school being in session, so on holidays and breaks, they keep rolling.

MGA Statutes Text Page 1 (http://mlis.state.md.us/asp/web_statutes.asp?gtr&21-809)

So, they can, and do operate today, for instance, between 6 and 8, and all summer long.

That should settle your hash:) Unless you can find anything disputing that. I have state bills, state law, news reports from reputable local news sources.

BCP, see above, state law says nope, only in school zones. But heres the catch. 210 up by the beltway? Not one school on the highway, but the municipality has placed them there because there are a couple of schools back off the road less than 1/2 a mile. You want enforcement, call the local barrak, I know the State police here almost live on Chancellors Run.

Corrolin, so, nothing in writing? And even so, if the amount of speeders (only ones 12mph and higher, 10-11 over, thats cool:)) has dropped, what about the incident data? Before and after? How many incidents were there before and after? Of course, anyone can claim professional knowledge, last guy that did, was a +20 year accident investigator, and we had a good conversation about RLCs.
Ok so if they place them in a non-school zone they are in violation of the statute. Go fight your ticket.

"Yes your honer I was speeding but they weren't supposed to have a camera there." :killingme

Or you just stick to 10 over the limit and you're golden. What a novel idea! :jet:

You still haven't proven that they can legally issue a ticket for over 25mph when school is not in session. It says 6-8. They can ticket you for over the posted limit based on school not in session. If they did, that is an easy win.

I always thought there were school related activities during the summer? I must be wrong seeing high school sports teams at the fields during the summer.

I have not seen a camera in a school zone in Maryland that was not parked directly in front of the school. I just want to know what is it so difficult to follow the law? There are people out there that have never gotten a speeding ticket, they must be doing something wrong. We should just get rid of all laws and have no consequences for our actions. That should make you extra happy huh? My professional knowledge goes deeper into it than you think. The government doesn't receive as much as you think.

I always thought there were school related activities during the summer?

Which is why I said school zones should be active 24/7/365 or not at all. There are almost always school related activities going on.

I always thought there were school related activities during the summer? I must be wrong seeing high school sports teams at the fields during the summer.

I have not seen a camera in a school zone in Maryland that was not parked directly in front of the school. I just want to know what is it so difficult to follow the law? There are people out there that have never gotten a speeding ticket, they must be doing something wrong. We should just get rid of all laws and have no consequences for our actions. That should make you extra happy huh? My professional knowledge goes deeper into it than you think. The government doesn't receive as much as you think.

And again, the equating of not liking these things that do no enhance safety, only make money, with the wishing to abolish all laws. Can we stop the personal characterizations and discuss the facts?

I am glad for your professional knowledge, but without more than general statements, it's hard to know how much weight to give it. My point about how many incidents were before, and how many after stands. This has nothing to do with safety, and is all about money. About that.....keep in mind, these numbers are the take after the program is paid for, and the company takes it cut.

Morningside MD, population 2,015, take from school zone cameras? $642,000, with it's annual budget being 1.6 million or so. Seems a good chunk of it to me.

New Carrolton, population 12,000, expected revenues over 750K.

If you want to discuss any particular government, I will be glad to do so, but theres the funny part. If these things stop making money, they go away. So much for safety. If it were that damn important, and made that big a difference in safety, they would fund it out of pocket. Hell, if these things are made revenue neutral, they go away. That's the thing that kept these systems out of MD for so long, the state and counties couldn't agree on the split. Lets stop with generalities and get down to cases. Be specific, please. Hard to argue vaporous statements.

It's a $77 million dollar industry just in this state.

Oh, and here's your fake school zone, complete with police chief defending it. a $750,000 dollar setup, that one.

Glenarden speed cameras placed in areas without schools | WJLA.com (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/04/glenarden-speed-cameras-placed-in-areas-without-schools-75372.html)

And that's the tip of the iceberg. Baltimore has used closed down schools for cameras. Again, it's about money

Okay Baja, you first.....



Speed Cameras Coming to Some City School Zones - Annapolis, MD Patch (http://annapolis.patch.com/articles/speed-cameras-coming-to-some-city-school-zones)



Whats funny is that that article manages to find a local incident that involves a car and a pedestrian. But then says it was pedestrian error:killingme


BILL INFO-2009 Regular Session-SB 277 (http://mlis.state.md.us/2009rs/billfile/SB0277.htm) (note this bill was passed and signed into law unaltered)



Montgomery County has an exception, in that they, as the pilot program, can put them on any surface street with a speed limit 35mph or lower. And we know what the Sheriffs troopers thought about that program. After being hit with tickets for violations when not responding, they blew through to trigger them and flipped them off, then hid behind the union.



The law says that the cameras can only be active from Mon-Friday from 6am to 8pm (covers ball games, etc). But heres the catch. It never says anything about school being in session, so on holidays and breaks, they keep rolling.

MGA Statutes Text Page 1 (http://mlis.state.md.us/asp/web_statutes.asp?gtr&21-809)



So, they can, and do operate today, for instance, between 6 and 8, and all summer long.

That should settle your hash:) Unless you can find anything disputing that. I have state bills, state law, news reports from reputable local news sources.

BCP, see above, state law says nope, only in school zones. But heres the catch. 210 up by the beltway? Not one school on the highway, but the municipality has placed them there because there are a couple of schools back off the road less than 1/2 a mile. You want enforcement, call the local barrak, I know the State police here almost live on Chancellors Run.

Corrolin, so, nothing in writing? And even so, if the amount of speeders (only ones 12mph and higher, 10-11 over, thats cool:)) has dropped, what about the incident data? Before and after? How many incidents were there before and after? Of course, anyone can claim professional knowledge, last guy that did, was a +20 year accident investigator, and we had a good conversation about RLCs.
you put a bunch of energy into arguing against these cameras, but you still dont say why you personally are so afraid of them.
If you dont speed, you dont get the ticket. its pretty simple.

So, what I hear from you is that you are upset because enforcement will cause you to either slow down, or pay a fine. Is this correct?
and since (from what I hear) you dont get a ticket unless you were going 12 or more over, you dont just want to speed, you really want to fly down the road.
See, I on the other hand would not care if they had a speed camera every mile of highway.

I guess with the money argument you can't fix stupid. There's a 30 day warning period and there are signs attached the the speed limit signs that say photo enforced. If that doesn't warn you, the first ticket should, if that doesn't, then well, you just can't fix stupid.

You're right I don't have the statistics off hand, and I probably won't look for them either. Not that much time a day to worry about it.

Ok so if they place them in a non-school zone they are in violation of the statute. Go fight your ticket.

"Yes your honer I was speeding but they weren't supposed to have a camera there." :killingme

Or you just stick to 10 over the limit and you're golden. What a novel idea! :jet:

You still haven't proven that they can legally issue a ticket for over 25mph when school is not in session. It says 6-8. They can ticket you for over the posted limit based on school not in session. If they did, that is an easy win.


I dont have any tickets to fight. Baltimore did send me one last December, but it was for a truck I have never owned, a misread on the plate. It says six to eight, Mon-Friday, no restriction on school being in session. Here, try this....

http://www.hyattsville.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/1180

The use of speed cameras in the City will:
Be in school zones established by City legislative actions Monday – Friday, 6 am to 8 pm (regardless of when school is in session).


you put a bunch of energy into arguing against these cameras, but you still dont say why you personally are so afraid of them.
If you dont speed, you dont get the ticket. its pretty simple.

So, what I hear from you is that you are upset because enforcement will cause you to either slow down, or pay a fine. Is this correct?
and since (from what I hear) you dont get a ticket unless you were going 12 or more over, you dont just want to speed, you really want to fly down the road.
See, I on the other hand would not care if they had a speed camera every mile of highway.


Must not have been reading that closely. I am not personally afraid, even if I did routinely exceed the speed limit by more than 8mph or so, which I dont, my radar detector would give me plenty of warning, even if they run laser, since it had GPS capability. My issue is with the hypocrisy of the elected officials and others who use the illusion of safety to sell these to the public soley to make money.


I guess with the money argument you can't fix stupid. There's a 30 day warning period and there are signs attached the the speed limit signs that say photo enforced. If that doesn't warn you, the first ticket should, if that doesn't, then well, you just can't fix stupid.

You're right I don't have the statistics off hand, and I probably won't look for them either. Not that much time a day to worry about it.

So, you are okay with your elected officials lying to you in the name of a private company making money? Inventing school zones that didn't exist, lowering speed limits in ones that did?

Okay then, but I don't so easily accept corruption. Too easy for everyone involved to hide behind the illusion that this has any effect on safety, when all they really care about is money. You want speed cams, go ahead, put them everywhere, no skin off my nose. But be honest about it. Don't cloak it in BS "for the children, won't anyone think of the children!!!!". But in places like AZ, they did just that, put them right out on the highway. Lasted I think 3 years before they were removed. The industry knows that a straight install without the beard of childrens/highway workers safety just wont fly.

AZ still has those cameras active....

AZ still has those cameras active....

Not the state ones on the highway that I cited, only some municipal and county systems left. Article dated May 06 2010. Cameras actually lasted about 2 years.

Arizona to shut off highway speed cameras - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/06/nation/la-na-speed-cameras-20100507)

Arizona's controversial — and widely despised — highway speed cameras are coming down.

The state's Department of Public Safety sent a letter to the cameras' operating company this week, stating that its 2-year contract would not be renewed. The agreement ends July 15, and the cameras will be turned off the next day.

Must not have been reading that closely. I am not personally afraid, even if I did routinely exceed the speed limit by more than 8mph or so, which I dont, my radar detector would give me plenty of warning, even if they run laser, since it had GPS capability. My issue is with the hypocrisy of the elected officials and others who use the illusion of safety to sell these to the public soley to make money.

So you are saying that there are no safety benefits from these cameras?

I dont care why they do it. As far as Im concerned they can come out and say they are doing it just to be a-holes. and thats fine with me.

I think the fact that they are making money and that money might bring less of a need for yet another tax, is great.
Im all for a stupid tax.

So you are saying that there are no safety benefits from these cameras?

I dont care why they do it. As far as Im concerned they can come out and say they are doing it just to be a-holes. and thats fine with me.

I think the fact that they are making money and that money might bring less of a need for yet another tax, is great. Im all for a stupid tax.

For there to be a safety benefit as claimed, you would have to be reducing the chances of a collision, between a pedestrian and a speeding driver, or a speeding driver and traffic related to the school. So, that assumes there has been a problem with speeding drivers crashing into pedestrians and/or traffic. If there are no incidents like that, how can you measure any benefit? And a benefit you cannot measure isn't a benefit.

Might as well install colored ballons in front of the school zone and proclaim your great improvement of safety. Went from zero incidents to zero incidents, what an amazing improvment. :sarcasm:

And if they would say that, I would be cool with it too. Put them up everywhere, just be honest about it. but they wont, for the simple reason that they know if they do, the program would falme out really fast. Same reason the only place they are allowed on the highway is work zones. Because all histrionics aside, the incidents of passing cars killing highway workers is really, really small. Far more are killed by equipment in the work zone with them. But it lets them wring their hands as if they are making anyone safer, when in fact its about making money.

So your saying that we should take cameras out of banks and gas stations that's never been robbed because what are the chances?

I know I said lets not get personal, but really, your debate skills leave a bit to be desired.

Back on topic. Whaaa? Of course not, there is no correlation to the school zone speed cams, one is privately paid for with no profit motive. Now, about the stats you cannot/will not provide, the specifics cases you wont detail, the questions back you ignore. How can you make a case out of nothing but "I just know"?

Sorry, but unless you have more to go on, I'm thinling you are done here:)

So your saying that we should take cameras out of banks and gas stations that's never been robbed because what are the chances?

should take down bridges too.
not enough cases of people not making it over the water without them in order to justify the expense of keeping them.

Bridges solve the problem of not being able to cross areas of water quickly and easily. We dont install them to prevent people from driving into the water. What problem do the speed cameras solve?

Bridges solve the problem of not being able to cross areas of water quickly and easily. We dont install them to prevent people from driving into the water. What problem do the speed cameras solve?

how do you know people would not drive into the water?

how do you know people would not drive into the water?

What I'm hearing is that you have run out of logical arguments and facts to use:duel:, and have decided that being silly is the key:razz:................And I am pretty sure the number of cases of people who drive into the water for lack of bridges is statistically insignificant. Whats funny is that I wasnt even asking for a statisically significant number of cases where speeding in school zones has cuased injuries/deaths/crashes, but any cases.

What I'm hearing is that you have run out of logical arguments and facts to use:duel:, and have decided that being silly is the key:razz:................And I am pretty sure the number of cases of people who drive into the water for lack of bridges is statistically insignificant. Whats funny is that I wasnt even asking for a statisically significant number of cases where speeding in school zones has cuased injuries/deaths/crashes, but any cases.

What you are hearing is that people are just going totally stupid on you becuase your arguments are weak.
it does not matter why they put the camera up. If you dont want to pay, dont speed
If you do want to pay then speed, and accept my appreciation for doing your part to keep my taxes lower than they could be without your contributions.

So your saying that we should take cameras out of banks and gas stations that's never been robbed because what are the chances?This sounds like the same argument to me.

What you are hearing is that people are just going totally stupid on you becuase your arguments are weak.
it does not matter why they put the camera up. If you dont want to pay, dont speed
If you do want to pay then speed, and accept my appreciation for doing your part to keep my taxes lower than they could be without your contributions.

His arguments are the only ones that aren't weak. He backs everything up with articles and references reenforcing his points. Your argument is if you don't like it don't speed.

People get so outraged about The government intervening on issues that don't really affect them, But when the government puts up more cameras to monitor us, they can't wait for it.

What you are hearing is that people are just going totally stupid on you becuase your arguments are weak.
it does not matter why they put the camera up. If you dont want to pay, dont speed If you do want to pay then speed, and accept my appreciation for doing your part to keep my taxes lower than they could be without your contributions.

If my argument (that the systems are not installed for safety, but for profit) is weak, demonstrate how that is so. And it does matter. If they lie in the process of doing a thing (tell us it's about safety), and make fake things (new school zones, lower speed limits)to support that thing, how can the thing itself be a good thing? Are you okay with the end (lower taxes) justifying the means (lying and making up bogus school zones)?

You just keep saying the same thing over, as if it negates my argument. But I agree with the point that if you dont want that ticket, dont speed in school zones. Enforcement solely for profit is wrong. It encourages corruption. And allowing corporations to control any aspect of law enforcement when they have a profit motive is wrong. And letting politicians change patterns/speed limits solely to enhance revenue is wrong. How do all these wrongs make a right?

1. The cameras have no safety benefit. Fact

2. The politicians who support these are at best willfully ignorant, at worst corrupt. Fact.

3. The companies who sell/maintain/operate these systems operate them soley for profit (as they should) Fact

Bring what you have in the way of facts that show these points to be wrong.

If my argument (that the systems are not installed for safety, but for profit) is weak, demonstrate how that is so. And it does matter. If they lie in the process of doing a thing (tell us it's about safety), and make fake things (new school zones, lower speed limits)to support that thing, how can the thing itself be a good thing? Are you okay with the end (lower taxes) justifying the means (lying and making up bogus school zones)?

You just keep saying the same thing over, as if it negates my argument. But I agree with the point that if you dont want that ticket, dont speed in school zones. Enforcement solely for profit is wrong. It encourages corruption. And allowing corporations to control any aspect of law enforcement when they have a profit motive is wrong. And letting politicians change patterns/speed limits solely to enhance revenue is wrong. How do all these wrongs make a right?

1. The cameras have no safety benefit. Fact

2. The politicians who support these are at best willfully ignorant, at worst corrupt. Fact.

3. The companies who sell/maintain/operate these systems operate them soley for profit (as they should) Fact Who can blame a company for trying? haha

Bring what you have in the way of facts that show these points to be wrong.


Just so I wouldn't be wrong by saying this, I went through and reread everything I posted, and not once have I said or debated about anything safety wise. I have argued the fact that the cameras are for behavior modification. I may not have the stats off hand as I've said, I just maintain, design, and build the cameras, peons like me don't get behind the scenes political stuff. I'm only in it for my 2 hour ride to work every day and my paycheck. What should I care about the written stats?

Behavior Modification, I don't know one person that would speed through every camera every day. Even though its only $40 for the ticket, 10 times will equal $400. Maybe there have not been a lot of accidents in school zones, as you have shown with your stats, but I would say that if you curve behavior to slow down, if there happens to be an accident, its a lot better to be at 35mph than 50mph plus.

One camera set up getting 1500 violations, averaging speeds were 60mph with the highest I saw 75mph. This is in a 25mph residential zone. Now the average speed is around 40mph will around 300 violations a day. Again I don't have this on paper. What's funny, the picture in the original article, is the camera I am talking about. I have had a lot of compliments from the residents about how they can actually cross the street to get to the bus stop without worrying about getting run down.

If it is all about money, than why not do something more extreme, and have the buffer at 5mph? True, money is involved, but you think people will react to a warning? Why not use police and put one at every school to run radar? Then you can get the points, and the higher fines. Why pay maintenance fees for something that's only going to pull money for a few months then drop off?

My comment about the cameras in banks and gas stations, if they weren't there how high would robberies go? There's nothing to curve the behavior, and people still do it, but with cameras, it is a lot less than what it could be.

Oh, and last but probably not least, I don't work Maryland so I can only go by what I know. Most the cameras set up are asked for by citizens getting tired of people flying through their street.

I know I said lets not get personal, but really, your debate skills leave a bit to be desired.

Sorry, I haven't brushed up on my internet debate skills, I'm usually doing something a little more productive than searching the internet for stats, that to most people, mean nothing.

Ah, so you work in the industry. Now thats a POV we havent had, and lends credence to your numbers, even without a reference. So, I will concede the behavior modification. But here's a thing about that. The press releases, they don't talk about that, they talk about safety, preventing tragedy. Ones that haven't happened in living memory, perhaps, but still. They sell it on safety.

I defy you to find me one instance of a citizenry (not a fake grassroots one) clamoring for cameras, at least before the camera industry starts the PR campaigns. Which campaigns and favorable media coverage are actually written into contracts as things the company will provide. Along with "grassroots" organizations bought and paid for by the industry. Here in MD, the big players, ATS and a couple of others, spent $600,000 dollars in one year soley to lobby lawmakers. Would they need such convincing were their constituents clamoring for them?

I don't blame the companies for trying to make a buck, that's what companies do. I do blame them for instances of outright dishonesty in pursuit of those dollars. Lobbying, legal. Fake grassroots, legal, but slimy. But there have been cases elsewhere where officers of the law have been paid back for favorable testimony to lawmakers with lavish trips with attractive industry lobbyists. And that's wrong.

Here in MD, the biggest illegalities surround the fact that state law forbids a few things. One is making school zones soley for the cameras, and the other is contracts that pay on a per citation basis. Both of these laws are routinely ignored, and the courts have shown no interest in making anyone comply.

Lastly, why 12mph and why only $40? Simple, same reason it's only school zones. The industry has learned from previous encounters that once you enrage the citizenry enough, they will find a way to get rid of you. So fines are low, and the limit is high, so folks can say "Well, its only the people really speeding". Like any good parasite, it knows not to hurt the host too much, or the host will scrape it off.

And I dont spend a lot of time looking this stuff up. I have been interested in this subject for years, and so have gathered a large body of knowledge on it, most of it I can recall quite easily. I enjoy a lot of other stuff, family, home improvement, brewing beer, enjoying my car and motorcycle. Sad that my commute is only seven minutes some days:) Worked from 7-11am, then 630-1030 today as a matter of fact:)

And I dont spend a lot of time looking this stuff up. I have been interested in this subject for years, and so have gathered a large body of knowledge on it, most of it I can recall quite easily. I enjoy a lot of other stuff, family, home improvement, brewing beer, enjoying my car and motorcycle. Sad that my commute is only seven minutes some days:) Worked from 7-11am, then 630-1030 today as a matter of fact:)

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.

Who do you think is paying to have these cameras installed & for the cameras? Also for the software and maintenance? That's right - the tax payers.
When I read that article and seen that no points or nothing will be shown to insurance companies I was just shaking my head. Like GLHS has said, just a cheap way to gain revenue. Agree with TPD & glhs 100%.

I would much rather have my tax money going to an officer to enforce these laws than some camera operated by the government that's spending on nothing but junk.Don't speed when you're stalking minor girls and you won't get a ticket. :coffee:

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.


Well, if it were not making money, for profit companies wouldnt be into it. Here in MD, one of the smaller players....

Brekford Corp Reports Full-Year Revenue Increase Up 44%; Full-Year, Fully Diluted EPS Up 300% (OTCBB:BFDI) (http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=248812)

Full-Year Financial Results

Revenues for the year ended December 31, 2011 were $16,716,560 compared to $11,608,828 for the year ended December 31, 2010, an increase of $5,107,733 or 44.0%, primarily due to the addition of our automated traffic enforcement products which had minimal revenue in 2010. The company launched the automated traffic enforcement business initiative in December of 2010 and saw a full year effect of growth in this service in 2011.

Others like ACS and Redflex have actually lost ground in recent years, thanks to large scale contract cancellations like AZ. In AZ, Redflex lost over $13 million. ACS, seeing the writing on the wall, has focused on overseas markets, because here in this country, they have been reduced to a sort of carpetbagging, at least on a state level, pitching the gov for permissive laws, then deploying until people get fed up and vote them out. Most action these days seems to be small contracts on a local level, city, and county. But Washington state has seen it's revolt start, as has Texas. SO, citizens have asked, but how many? And what other methods have been tried to slow traffic? The NHTSA recommends engineering solutions first. But that makes no money.

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.

I know this is a little off topic but, is it okay to speed through school zones at 128 MPH if you're test driving a Lexus?:confused:

Only if its an LFA and I believe it was closer to 140 and not in a school zone. I could be mistaken though.

Good one, that's all you ever say.
Asked you for proof in the last thread and you never showed up...
Goes to show how pathetic you are.Good one is right since you cannot & have not deny it.

Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it. You'd be AMAZED at what I know about you son. :coffee: