View Full Version : How would everyone react to...
11-06-2001, 10:09 AM
Not that I'm opening one, or know anyone who is, or even planning. I'm just wondering what the business base would be. I know there's not too many saltwater aquarists down here, but there are a lot of freshwater aquarists. If there was a quality saltwater fish store down here, with knowledgeable employees that could give you personal help (and possibly hold free classes on saltwater aquaria), would it be an encouragement to get into the hobby?
01-14-2002, 08:43 AM
Uh, are you kidding? Seriously? Because if you have read anything about the hobby, you would find that most saltwater aquarists are dedicated to preserving nature's resources. This is why captive coral propagation and tank-breeding fish are on the upswing.
But you're entitled to your opinion, of course.
01-14-2002, 10:01 AM
First of all, I don't believe that an aquarium is a totally undesireable situation for a fish. You eliminate any possible predators, provide a constant supply of food, and medical treatment when necessary. True, they don't have the "whole ocean", but it's not a torture chamber, either.
I am aware of cyanide poisoning and its effects on coral reefs. That's why I only buy livestock from establishments that are members of AMDA, who do not patronize collectors who use cyanide. It's one of their rules. None of my fish are even indigenous to the Phillipines - I made sure of that when I selected my species list because I DO know about cyanide poisoning.
I am also aware of the selective breeding with fish farms that occurs, resulting in oddly shaped or colored fish, like the balloon molly. I do not keep these fish. I also refuse to buy fish at any establishment that carries artificially colored fish. (Yes, I am also aware of paint injection and acid baths used to apply color to fish.)
All of my filtration equipment is remote, none of it is in the display tank (it's all in a sump). The only sound in the tank is rushing water.
I really think you've prejudged me, here. I've been an aquarist for 20 years and most of my fish came into my possession from people who were slowly killing them with inadequate accomodation, lack of medical attention, or improper tankmates. And in my years of keeping fish, I have done a wee bit of research. I'm not a total moron. I know how fish get from the ocean or fish farm and end up in people's homes. I know of the subtleties of fish behavior and how they form bonds, interact with each other, react to stress in their environments. I do not think any of my fish are any less in importance than my dog.
How am I doing my part to save the coral reefs? I am growing several different species of coral in my own tank from fragements that came from another hobbyist's tank. The new colonies I am growing will be transplanted to yet ANOTHER hobbyists tank, taking the place of any wild-collected corals that may be bought instead.
01-14-2002, 10:09 AM
By the way, I see you found the link to the PETA website! You know, if you're going to use their words verbatim, you should really cite it.
Here's exactly the same passage from PETA, at this link:
Factsheets > Companion Animals
Fish in Tanks: No Thanks!
Fragile tropical fish, born to dwell in the majestic seas and forage among brilliantly colored coral reefs, suffer miserably when forced to spend their lives enclosed in glass aquariums. Robbed of their natural habitat, denied the space to roam, they must swim and reswim the same empty cubic inches.
Breeders and Dealers: Pain Profiteers
The popularity of keeping tropical fish has created a virtually unregulated industry based on catching and breeding as many fish as possible, with little regard for the fish themselves.
In the Philippines, the source of most saltwater fish sold in the U.S., many fish divers collect their prey by squirting cyanide or other poisons into the coral reefs where fish live.(1) Meant to stun them so that they will drift out of the reef for easy collection, the cyanide kills as many as half of the fish on the spot. Many others die from cyanide residue after being purchased. The poison also kills the live coral where the fish live, which can take thousands of years to grow back.(2)
Most of the freshwater fish sold in the U.S. are easier to breed than their saltwater cousins and are bred on "fish farms." These breeding centers, seeking new market niches, create fish breeds that would never occur in nature. Treating fish as ornaments instead of as live animals, some fish breeders "paint" fish by injecting fluorescent dye into their bodies to make them more attractive to buyers.(3)
Fish are wonderful creatures with individual personalities and attributes that most people know little about. They communicate with each other, form bonds, and grieve when their companions die.(4) Fish communicate with one another through a range of low-frequency sounds—from buzzes and clicks to yelps and sobs. The sounds, audible to humans only with special instruments, communicate emotional states such as courtship, alarm, or submission.(5) Sadly, the pumps and filters necessary in many home aquariums can interfere with this communication. "At the least, we're disrupting their communication; at the worst, we're driving them bonkers," says ichthyologist Phillip Lobel.(6)
Most fish enjoy companionship and develop special relationships with each other. One South African publication documented the relationship between Blackie, a goldfish with a deformity that made it nearly impossible for him to swim, and Big Red, the larger fish who shared his tank. Big Red daily put Blackie on his back to swim him around, and when they were fed, Big Red swam Blackie to the surface, where they ate together.(7)
Fish enjoy tactile stimulation in their relationships and often gently rub against each other. Divers tell of gaining the friendship of fish by lightly scratching their foreheads—they've found that the fish then recognize and regularly approach them.(8)
01-14-2002, 10:16 AM
I smell a PETA drone!
01-14-2002, 10:26 AM
PETA, the same idiots that had their supporters put blaze orange vests on the deer in one of the mid-west states. All they did was make the deer easier targets for the hunters. Way to go PETA.
01-14-2002, 10:41 AM
Yeah, I consider myself compassionate towards animals, but I would NEVER want to be associated with PETA. What a bunch of wack jobs.
Good calls, Ken King and FishMan!
01-14-2002, 10:56 AM
LOL.... Wow it's sad when some one tries to prove a point without using their own mind!!!! Great job seasquirt! Wobicat next time try coming up with your own points.
01-14-2002, 11:23 AM
Cat got your tongue? :lmao:
01-14-2002, 12:24 PM
Maybe she had to re-assimilate into the PETA collective so she'll know what to say next.
01-14-2002, 01:07 PM
Have you ever heard of copyright laws??? :duh:
01-14-2002, 01:30 PM
I have no problem with you having your OWN opinion, or with you agreeing with a publication from PETA (even if I think PETA's a little nutty). However, when you pasted their article into your post without any citation or reference and made it appear that you were claiming the content of the article as your own words, it really, REALLY takes away the validity of what you put out here. Another way you could have approached it would have been to merely supply the link and say, "Read this, I think it's a good summary of the problems I perceive with the aquaria industry".
And please also realize that not many people see PETA as a source of gospel truth. I hope they're not the only source of "facts" upon which you rely to formulate your opinions. If you would like to read about aquarists who ARE trying to make a difference, please check out these websites:
What they do may not be consistent with your beliefs, but it does show another side of the coin: people who are concerned with the bigger picture, rather than how many cool animals they can cram in their tank. I hope you read these, because they address some of the same problems the PETA article does, but the PETA article conveniently left them out of the picture so they could make their point the way they wanted to.
01-14-2002, 05:57 PM
"If you want opinions on what you post then you should expect different views. A forum is a place to discuss things. I read your views on what you believe is true, seasuirt, and you read things that I believe are true. I am glad that you, in the beginning, answered maturely and intelligently. Just remember that if you post things you are going to get different beliefs and views."
It's fine to give different views, but I don't think that seasquirt was asking for your opinion on the morality of keeping fish.
I am always amazed at the self righteous attitudes the PETA crowd has towards the unwashed masses.
01-15-2002, 08:50 AM
Quote: from Wobicat on 1:02 pm on Jan. 14, 2002[br]If you want opinions on what you post then you should expect different views. A forum is a place to discuss things. I read your views on what you believe is true, seasuirt, and you read things that I believe are true. I am glad that you, in the beginning, answered maturely and intelligently. #Just remember that if you post things you are going to get different beliefs and views.
I am fine with listening to other people's views, and I think we should ALL answer maturely and intelligently. But there is nothing intelligent about copying and pasting SIX PARAGRAPHS of someone else's words and presenting them as your own. And there is nothing mature about whining when you get caught doing this. YES, it matters where you get the information if you're going to quote it like that - haven't you ever done a term paper? Not saying we're gonna kick you out of school, but plagiarism is plagiarism.
The reason not many people responded to the question at first was probably because it didn't apply to them. But the reason everyone jumped in wasn't because PETA was mentioned, it was because you made a mistake by copying six paragraphs from their site and presenting it as your own thoughts.
01-15-2002, 10:49 AM
OK, Wobicat, apology accepted.
Here's another website I think you should look at:
It's the home page for the AMDA, The American Marinelife Dealers Association - I mentioned them previously. Check out the "Standards of Practice" link, it outlines their code of ethics, including collection and stocking (as in, not offering particular specimens that are notoriously difficult to maintain in captivity, or that are integral to the ecosystem, such as cleaner wrasses). You may still not agree with the aquaria hobby, and it's not my intention to change your mind. The fish farms, breeding of weird strains of fish, cyanide collection, and the other bad things that the PETA article mentioned DO happen. That's why associations such as this have been developed. I just hope you realize that not all collectors or dealers support the nastiness within the hobby and industry.
01-15-2002, 10:36 PM
I'm considering and have made inquires into starting a new saltwater store in southern MD. #Let's face it, the closest good-quality saltwater aquarium store is 100 miles away from the Lexington Park area. #We either have to make the monthly trip "up the road" or take our chances with the mail order crowd. #I strongly believe that if good practices are followed, such as the guildlines laid out by AMDA, and the word gets out, a store such as this can make it in this area.
01-16-2002, 08:49 AM
HOORAY!!! Well, I for one am very excited to hear about this!!! Say hello to your first customer!!! Be sure to keep me updated!
01-16-2002, 07:08 PM
Will do, the paperwork is a real hassel, hopefully if things go well, I'll be opening this spring.
02-15-2002, 12:42 AM
Where is the best place to purchase freshwater fish in the area? #I have been attempting to set up a tank with angelfish, bought from various shops, only to have them die within the week. # I was told that there was an angel blight a few years back, and that you have to be careful where you purchase them. #I am not an expert when it comes to tropical fish, but have had successful aquariums in the past ( and yes, I have had angels before). #Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!
02-15-2002, 02:22 PM
Definitely Crawley's Precious Angels in Owings/Dunkirk. If you're leaving from St. Mary's County, it's a bit of a hike, but most hobbyists don't mind a bit of a drive to get healthy fish at a well-run store. The lady who owns the store quarantines all her fish before she sells them, AND she makes sure you have the right size tank for the fish you want to keep (and the appropriate tankmates). All of the people who work there (in my experience) know their stuff - seems like the owner really takes the time to educate them.
02-19-2002, 01:54 PM
so what's the word on the fish store? just wondering how you are progressing!
02-19-2002, 10:45 PM
I talked to cmacmike over e-mail last week, and he said he's aiming for the store to be open around the beginning of March. He said he's only going to have dry goods (salt mix, crushed coral, food, etc...) at first, but he's building racks and stands for his tanks... so I guess it won't be TOO long after opening that he'll have actual critters. Maybe he'll give me store credit in exchange for my baby clownfish, if I actually raise the fry to a post-larval stage! (The eggs should be hatching this weekend if all goes well.)
02-20-2002, 02:22 PM
Do you think he is going to be just fish or do you think he is planning reptiles also? Also where is his store going to be? That way I can tell people to be on the lookout!
02-21-2002, 08:28 AM
OK, I just talked to him over e-mail, and the new date for the store opening is April 6. It's going to be located in St. Leonard, on the boardwalk in the Chesapeake Market Place - I don't know exactly where that is, but that's what he said. I don't think he's going to have reptiles. I'm pretty sure this store will be exclusively saltwater fish.
03-04-2002, 05:51 AM
Hi folks! Just an update on our new saltwater aquarium store. Let¡¦s face it, the closest good-quality saltwater aquarium store is 100 miles away from the Lexington Park area. For those of us that enjoy keeping reef tanks, we either have to make the monthly trek ¡§up the road¡¨ or take our chances with the mail order crowd.
Well, no more! We are opening a small store this spring in St. Leonard with a whole new attitude. We love our hobby and the animals we care for. Those of us working there are hobbyists and understand what you want to see in a top-notch store.
„Ï Our store will be clean and cared for. No dirty tanks with ¡§salt creep¡¨ climbing everywhere.
„Ï We will sell only those animals that are suitable for aquariums and have a good chance of survival.
„Ï We understand that there is more than one way to have a successful reef tank and will not try to push ¡§our¡¨ method on you.
„Ï Our prices will be the lowest in the area; our low overhead allows us to do this.
„Ï We support the AMDA and will strive to follow their guidelines, including the sale of Aquaculture grown corals and fish.
„Ï An after-hours hotline will be available for emergencies that may occur. If you have a problem, call us, we are here to help.
„Ï Setup and maintenance accounts are available for both residential and commercial customers at reasonable prices.
Can¡¦t wait for us to open? Well, it's just around the corner. On March the 20th we will have our "sneek peek" opening selling dry goods while we wait for our tanks to cycle. Hours will be 5-8pm Wed/Thur. 5-9pm Fri. and 10am-5pm Sat/Sun. Phone 410-495-7600
We are in St. Leonard in the Chesapeake Market Place compound. Its off of Route 4, turn onto Calvert Beach Road and stop at the first stop sign. Look to the right and you'll see the Chesapeake Market Place, we are in the first building to the left of the Warehouse, on the Boardwalk.
Look forward to seeing you and thanks for all your support and encouragement.
03-04-2002, 08:27 PM
Hey CMACMIKE- GOOD LUCK with the shop. I used to have have fresh water tanks, but loved to look at the salt water. #Didn't figure that I had enough (none) knowledge to maintain a salt water aquarium. #Will look forward to visiting when you open. #Maybe we will even see you as a sponsor on SOMD Online!!!!
(Edited by jellybean at 8:28 pm on Mar. 4, 2002)
03-05-2002, 04:59 PM
Hey Thanks! I've gotten more positive responses like yours than I ever thought possible. Looking forward to meeting you, stop on by and take a look around. Our show tank is a 60 gallon pacific reef tank that was started 10 days ago.
The key to being able to maintain a salt water tank is to read, and have a little patience. It really is a lot easier now than it was just 5-7 years ago.
Once again thanks for the encouragement.
10-29-2003, 03:46 PM
Uhhh yeah....I know I am a little late getting into this and all but uhhhh.....yeah the # that was given "has been disconected". So whats the deal, did your shop go under or what?
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