Well, I can see that this Religion forum has degraded into a PmoneyandTT Christian-Post-Fest...it's like I'm being evangelized to, and Robert Tilton and Benny Hin are nowhere in SITE!!! Where DO I send my money???
These aren't even discussions suggested; they are like mini-sermons that all basically could be summed up in one post alone:

"I belive in God and Jesus, and it's good so you should too."

I think that the idea behind PostFest '01 is pure; TT seems to be trying to help people with certain common problems; lonliness, love, marriage, daily living;  But the problem is, there's no room for discussion, there's only long, one-sided, sermonizing.  I'm not coming down on TT for the intent, but it just struck me as odd that all of the sudden, there would be about 10+ posts, all in a row, in FOUR different threads that are all basically one person on their soapbox (or pulpit) without any sort of rhyme or reason....did this seem weird to anyone else?

Well, Jimmy, as the liberals say about profane, violent and sexually provocative entertainment:

If you don't like it, don't read it!

Well, I DID read it and I DON'T like it so I'm saying something about it.

I am merely questioning the nature of TT's posts.  They don't seem to be in keeping with the intended use of this forum.  I'm asking where the justification for using this forum as a pulpit comes from.  I mainly see people brining up issues for discussion and the like and, yet, TT posts about 10 different (yet similar) posts on how all problems are solved through acceptance of God. But not in a "what about this idea?" sort of way. Just a "hey, I'm not going door to door today so here's some Christianity for ya!" kinda way.

What exactly about Christianity threatens you so much?  I've asked several times but you've never answered.  How is TT hurting you by posting her missives?  What civil right of yours does it take away?

Just curious...

Jimmy,

I can understand your point and I will have to agree with you.  

I am a non-practicing Catholic and if I wanted to read the bible, I would go to Church, not these forums.

Does that mean that when you go to a bookstore you're offended by the religious books on the shelves?  After all, if you wanted to see a Bible, you'd go to church.  Right?

TT's probably cast some white magic on you that forces you to read her posts - takes over your mouse finger until you have no control over it so she can spew her beliefs to the unsuspecting population.  That's some power right there - you better not mess with her.

I have an idea - let's ban religious writings!  That'll teach people to exercise their freedom of speech...

:lmao:

I've never understood why religion is so threatening to atheists!  

No Vrai and that is because I don't go into bookstores.  If I did, I wouldn't go past the "religious freak" section!  I would head straight for the playgirl mags!!!!

No Vrai and that is because I don't go into bookstores

Nope...Nope...I'm not gonna do it.  Too easy.

I don't think it's really a matter of my being "offended" or "scared" by Christian beliefs. Or even a repulsion to bearing witness to them. I realize I'm in an online forum that has all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds and I'm gonna come across people with which I don't agree (see: Hessian).  HOwever, my problem with TT's posts is not that they are CHRISTIAN, it's that TT seems to be using this as a forum to evangelize to others. I just dont' think that's apporopriate. This is a place for discussion, not conversion. I wasn't OFFENDED by it; I dont' care if TT's a Christian or not. And as an "agnostic" not an Athiest, John, but thanks for playing, I don't pretend to know the truth. Therefore, I don't start threads that are like "Hey, got any problems in your life? Well, don't turn to God! He doesn't exist! Sure, you may get a warm fuzzy feeling, but that's because you are weak and it helps you to believe!"  Because that's along the same lines as TT's posts suggesting the Christian God as the answer to all problems.  And I just don't think this is the place for preaching one's own personal agenda.

Small world Jimmy.

I fall into the catagory of agnostics as well. The difference I think is that I don't find it nessasary to run down someone elses faith when I don't share it.

That's something I've witnessed countless times among the Athiests.
They seem to feel we shouldn't have "Freedom of Religion" but instead "Freedom from Religion".

But if you're really an agnostic I'll have to take your word! #

;)

Nah, I'm not trying to run down Christianity. I'm just saying that I don't think this is the right venue for evangelizing. I just thought it was odd that all of the sudden there are these multi-post sermons on here and they really weren't discussion oriented. They seemed to be pushing a personal objective. I'm not for Freedom From Religion at all. It's not for me, but it's great for some. I'm dating a girl who is a christian (strong in her faith but NOT a fundamentalist). And I dont' give her guff for it.  But she also doesn't sermonize to me etc. If it's really a live and let live attitude that I should be adopting, then I'd say that TT doesn't need to be preaching on these sites. And I'm not even saying that he shouldn't be ALLOWED to do so...I'm just kinda confused as to why he thought to do it in the first place.

Did you know the Bible says abortion is ok.  How does everyone feel about that???  

I know...I'm getting off the subject!!!

Jimmy,  This is the religion forum.  It's about as proper place to post a sermon as you can get!  

Someone may find it inspirational or helpful to their lives.  There are a lot of people out there searching.  She's not trying to hurt anyone.  

I'd have to agree w/ Christy.

Jimmy, for Pete's sake!  TT obviously put up her post because she wanted to share her thoughts.  Why does anyone put up any post?  Now you're just trying to back-pedal because you know you're being silly. :duh:

Now not only is TT controlling our mouse and Hessian gets to decide who goes to heaven, but Jimmy gets to decide who posts what in these forums.  Sheesh!

And, Princess, I'll bite:  where does it say that?

So, TT posted post after post....about Christianity in relation to other things....

something new....

No, she may not have intended to use it for discussion purposes....

However, not all threads in the forums here are for discussion purposes....  I don't see why this is any different...

TT wants to share her message.... no harm done!!

Change is welcomed in this <i>church</i>. :cheesy:

Jimmy,  This is the religion forum.  It's about as proper place to post a sermon as you can get!  

Someone may find it inspirational or helpful to their lives.  There are a lot of people out there searching.  She's not trying to hurt anyone.  

Vrai,

Here is MY interpretation of an abortion from the Bible!

Exodus 21:22
"When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

In this instance a woman has been  injured, in a fight between two men, that she has aborted. The law states that if "no harm follows" the outsider must pay the husband a fine. An abortion has been induced through violence and this is not considered harmful. Abortion, then, is not a capital offense or a violation of the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."


Hosea 9:14.
"Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb (an abortion) and dry breasts."
And later,
"...yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb." Hosea 9:16

You're certainly free to interpret the Bible anyway that fits your argument.  But I'll suggest to you that most Americans can read those passages at face value and come up with a different meaning, no interpreter needed considering it's plain English.

In our vernacular, abortion and miscarriage are two different things.  Abortion is induced; miscarriage is spontaneous.  After 28 (?) weeks it's considered stillborn.  But if you want to call a miscarriage an abortion to fit with your Biblical interpretations, it's okay with me.

I don't allow the enemy to plug into me and violate me through his subtle seductions.  He is a giver and he is looking for a receiver.  I must discern his influence if I am going to rebuke him.

I have free will to post - as I please.. This is a religion Post area.  You don't have to read - or even click on this particular forum.  My reasons aren't your reasons - so you will never understand. And I will not entertain your thoughts of doing so.. Seems to me - since I stop posting at the harry potter posting - You came looking for me here.. I am so flattered by your persistence.. Makes a girl blush.. The funny thing about this - I knew it would ruffle your feathers..  And I have succeeded once again.  Your to busy trying to ask why - Maybe you should move to Montomery county with the rest of the "if it doesn't agree with me" then you better not do it people.. Yea - Im on a soapbox - I enjoying doing it.. It pleases me to know - Sharing my faith with other people - might give them a different look on life.  Whether you agree with it or not.. You are an individual - You have your right to do what ever.. If I had posted in other places - then I could understand your argument.. Im posting in Religion.. You like to pick fights for the gradification of doing so. You what we call a "bully" for a lack of better words.. Im not a HATER.. I don't hate you for your beliefs - don't hate me for mine. LIke Blondie said - You control your mouse - not me..

Curiousity - is such a good thing.. Man - God does wonders..
All the glory goes to him for leading you here..

In the last days - christians will be persecuted - Am I willing to die for my beliefs and My Lord Jesus Christ.. I am not ashamed of who I am..

Like I said--MY INTERPRETATION!!!!!!  Not yours, or anyone elses!  ALL MINE!!!!

Here's a funny story:

When my daughter was little and learning her colors, she used to get them mixed up.  I'd say, "What color is this?"  And she'd say, "Red."  I'd say, "No, that's blue."  And she'd say, "I can call it red if I want to!"

The point is, you can call it that if you want to but it doesn't make it true.

What tree did you fall out of?.. I was talking to Jimmy..
Not on a religious level - but on a educational level - I don't have anything in common with what you say - or said.
It seems most have gotten a "f" in reading comprehension class.  

Your view of things - are great - glad you pointed those things out.. Now Im going to ruffle your feathers - "go sit back in the corner"

Ok,

I seem to have misinterpreted your impetus for posting so many "sermon-like" essays on this forum.  I understand that you are strong in your faith and, hey, maybe someone read that and it picked them up. I shouldn't have picked on you for trying to share your belief.  I was, and still am, a bit confused as to the suddenness of it all, but whatever, that's I guess not for me to question. I find it interesting that you knew it would ruffle my feathers. But make no mistake. I'm not chasing you. I was actually going here to post my question about the Dr. Laura letter. I saw many posts by you that looked like they had sparked discussion. But instead, I found 4 replies each by yourself just adding different parts to the "sermon" (i'm just calling them that because of the religious nature of them).  So I overreacted and guessed that it was you simply being preachy and not allowing for discussion on issues. But if it makes you happy to share your faith in that manner, which I'm sure it does, I will no longer give you a hard time for it. Not that it matters. Just wanted to say.

The reason I knew it would ruffle your feathers - is because of the postings in Harry Potter.. That Holy thou art thing I got going on.. My reasons are not your reasons - Why you say all of a sudden.. I don't think anything is all of a sudden.. Harry Potter was the quo to express the word of God..

It was just my time..

Everything is about timing..

Do you actually think the Enemy is going to come at you with horns and a pitchfork?  NO - he would rather come at you like a white angel - so you will invite him in your house - you won't feel threatened.. The best way to Kill someone is to become their friend.. Satan knows this - and he has alot of ways of doing this..

On an educational level - If someone came at you with a gun in your face - you would feel your life was threatened right..

Well if I wanted to get more from you then just killing you - I wanted your possessions - your sanity - your way of life meaning job - income - savings.. I would have to get you to trust me.. Be your friend - agree with your understanding.. Never go against you.. But once your guard is down - then thats when I strike.. Come on now - If you believe there is a God then you have to believe there is a satan..

His whole purpose is to kill - steal - and destroy.. Once he puts the wool over your eyes - he will accomplish all of that..

God's words never lie - satan is the King of Liars.. Post as you will - I like the chase.. And yes - I still have alot more to say.... Or rather God does..

Do you actually think the Enemy is going to come at you with horns and a pitchfork?  NO - he would rather come at you like a white angel - so you will invite him in your house - you won't feel threatened.. The best way to Kill someone is to become their friend.. Satan knows this - and he has alot of ways of doing this..

What are you talking about? You want to kill me? You think I want to kill you? Oh wait---this wasn't for me...Was it? This was just more sermonizing?

:lmao:

Pmoney, since this is a religious forum i'm interested in what you said,

Come on now - If you believe there is a God then you have to believe there is a satan..

My question is why? Why do you have to believe this? And how could god ahve created satsn if sattn is the antihesis of God? How can satan be as powerful as God if god created him? If God didn't create satan, then where did he come from? any thoughts?

Your like a wet dream - it doesn't last..

The funny thing is I don't need anyone to parade behind me. I have Christ my savior - you on the other hand - the bigger your posse - the bigger you claim to be..

The words of God - will not change everyone - it states that throughout the bible.. I don't have any physical evidence to prove otherwise - thats why its called FAITH... Little or lacking on alot of people's part.. And since you like turning people's words around - I see no need in flattering myself any longer.. I had did alot of research on all those questions you posted.. But really - I am not going to waste my time.. Find it yourself.. I know my word - and I know what is true for me.. Posting that information will be like walking you threw a door when its shut - it won't happen and you'll get a headache in the process...

and,

You hear that...your a wet dream!!!!!!  That must be wonderful!!!!  :lmao:  Was it good?????  :cheers:

Did anybody go to sunday school?  

You believe what you will.. There has always been a satan.. He was once a angel.. The favorite angel - the beautifuliest angel.. But PRIDE was his sin.. So God threw him out of heaven.. And all of his followers with him.. This is the fight that is still going on today.. Before humans there has always been angels.. They are spirits.. But they are also a servant to God.. Satan is not on the same level as God.. He is just another spirit that hates mankind so much.. Since Adam fell - Adam gave satan power.. Over our thoughts - the wickdness.. Satan knows he will not win.. But he doesn't want to go to hell by himself - so he uses what God loves - mankind to do his evil.. You have to believe in the spirit world before you can understand all of this.. If you don't believe there is a heaven or hell - then you won't even believe this.. Just like I did research on Harry Potter - and came up with my decision - you should do research on reading the bible come up with your own conclusion.. If you have a closed mind to things - it won't matter.. In order for me to understand things - and know they are against what I believe in I do research.. I use more then one resource to establish my final answer.. Posting on here - is only a 1/3 of what goes on with me.. I am unable to give detail after detail of what I find - or what I read.. It would be to long - and to much to post.. Stop depending on people to give you answers to your questions.. I only can give you what God has giving me.. But something he is not going to give me - He deals with each of us on an individual level.. Im already there - no need in asking such questions.. I just don't sit in church and take what the preacher says as solid information.. I go back and do research and pray about it.. Thats why Im so confident in myself - I know who I am

Actually, Sxy, I believe it was I who was the "wet dream"...

I wonder why you would try to use something like that against me when the post I put up first today was basically to appologize to you. But since you come back with your sermonizing which shifts direction more than piss in the wind, followed by your witty "wet dream" comment which both didn't really make sense, and I think was just an excuse for you to say "wet dream" I'll respond...

andwhat asks you do explain your statement "if you belive in god you must believe in Satan"--what do you do? You come back with more flowery, vomitted up religious jargon, that I belive even YOU don't truly understand, and leave it at that. You think that you have to believe in Satan to belive in God. I think that's BS. And there are MANY people who believe both. But they're wrong I guess since God and Jesus are with you and you alone and since you must have researched it, then you must be right...how do you research something like that? Read the bible? Pray? How reliable is that in NOT just "taking what the preacher says" for granted?  You don't approach these questions in an objective manner.  How can you? Your blinded by faith in ONE SPECIFIC THING and you refuse to allow for the existance of any other truths.
Well that's fine.  It seems to work for you and you are very confidant in your own beliefs so more power to you. But take the arrogant tone out of your voice here when it comes to my and andwhat's questionings of the things you post. Anyone can just vomit back bible verses to me and say that they suffice as explanations.  Take your own advice and "stand for something" when it comes to the things you say. You say I go looking for arguements. I agree that I enjoy a good debate. But the reason I honed in on YOU here is that you seem to just put out ideas and then run away leaving a smoke trail of bible verses, disjointed logical thoughts, and blanket feel-good, catch-all statements like "I know who I am" and clever little one-liners in your dust.  
Well stop being a broken record, and put on something we can dance to.

Jimmy,

I'm sorry...I didn't realize the "wet dream" comment was aimed at you.  Anyhow...I agree TT didn't make sense about the use of it, either.

So, to piggyback on your comment...TT is speaking "gods" words and NOT her own.  If she believes what he says...fine....but how about thinking for yourself once in a while.  

Stop being a follower....stand up to yourself and be a LEADER!!!!!!!!!

Allow me to defend myslef a bit. Yes i went to sunday school, yes I ahve doen a research, hell I have a degree in philosophy AND Religious Studies and my senior thesis was on the problem of evil in the bible and how it is never truly answered so please do not try to talk down to me as if i do not know what I'm talking about. Just b/c you believe in God, does not mean that you have to believe in Satan. It does if you are what you consider a "true christian" and take the bible completely literaly.ypou said that God deals wiht all of us individually, does that mean that god revelas himself in differnt ways to do different people so as to reach everyone b/c he knows that different people need to be taught in different ways? So then maybe all those wacky people who are reading the Qu'ran or the Torah or the book of mormon instead of the bible might be on the right track after all. But no, you couldn't accept that b/c your way is the only way.
Oh and Jimmy, damnit I want to be someone's wetdream. thanks for stealing my thunder.

Well Im a servant of God - not of man.. Im a leader in my household - You can make up your own rules - doesn't mean I have to abide by them.. This is a religion forum - not anything else.. I wanted to post some things about the Word of God - I didn't come knocking on your door.. You clicked on it.. It really doesn't matter what you say to me - its all in vain anyway.. I don't have any tone with you.. I talk to everyone like they are an adult.. I don't have to uplift my voice to get my point across.. Thats the level you chose to sit on.. I don't need your approval or your forgiveness to speak or type what I believe.. Co-signer as you will.. Who's following who?  Your only as strong as your leader.. And since my Christ is my leader - I know Im strong..

Doesn't matter what you say - or what you think - Why do you feel like you have to get your point across in the religion forum.. Why don't you make up your own little forum about what you believe - Im sure your co-signers will follow you.. Type what you believe - say what you will - let people comment on what you think about things.. I picked the religion forum because I thought it was a good place.. Maybe something like "fire up" forum would be more suitable for you.. Preach about the MEism - what is good for me - what I can do for me - what me thinks about me... Im sure you will get alot of debate there.. Gods word maybe a broken record to you - but not to me.. Im not trying to play music to your liking any how..

Pmoney, Jimmy apologized for this entire forum which he started and i thought that he and you had reached an agreement that it was over, end of subject, move on, bu bye now. and then you come back and start keep going on and on about what I have no idea. And no I didn't get an f in reading comprehension class. Jimmy apologized, he said you can post whatever you want and thats fine and then you kepp going on and on reiterating that you can post things. Are yo trying to prove to Jimmy that you can post hings. I think he gets the point. He admitted he was in the wrong, let it go b/c he has.

Amen "and."  I was starting to :snooze: over all the repetative sermon speeches.

Great - sunday school attendant..

In the first book - it says there was a tree of life - Good and evil.. When Eve fed that fruit to Adam - mankind eyes were open to Evil.. It already existed before we were ever made.. So since there isn't any satan - everything that happens bad - you blame God?  

I have FAITH in <b>God</b>.  Sorry, I DONT HAVE FAITH in <b><"Satan"</b>...

Yes, there is good and evil in this world.  That in no sense means that I should put my faith into this omnipotent evil creature...

Everything happens for a reason...Good and bad...they are both at the hands of God in my perspective.
Life is about individual choices and growth.  If there were no "evil" or "bad", we wouldn't worry about personal choice....and individual growth cannot take place.... then, what would be the purpose of life?!?!?!

Pmoney, you still don't escape it b/c if you say that satan is the foundation of all evil, your stuck with God created satan and there forefore if a=b and b=c, then a=c and god still created evil and so I you can still blame him. Namely God created stan, stan created evil, therfore god created evil and is the foundaiton of all evil in the world. thats part of the problem I have is that this isn't answered or addressed.

and,

I am enjoying reading your logical arguments... now I see that it comes from the philosophy background...where they actually teach you how to make a logical argument...

Man, if only, everyone were required to take a logic course or something... we could throw out all these b.s arguments...that follow no proper logic...
Then, there would be more agreement and understanding.

Well Im sure this won't answer your question either.. God said there can only be one God - and thats him.. When Luficer wanted to be like God - it was a sin "Pride" so he was thrown out of heaven.. Satan became bitter - so since he hates God so much - and God loves us so much - what better way to get back at God then through us.. Yes God created Angels - but like us they have free will.. I don't know why people think God is this awful being.. He lets us make choices.. He wants us to serve him with our hearts.. Lucifer made a choice - There can only be one God - Satan is not a god - he is a spirit.. Who hates all of us - and especially God.. Did you ever read the story about satan trying to tempt Jesus.. Telling him he could give him dominion over the earth.. How are you going to give something to someone if it doesn't even belong to you.. Satan has a way of making things look a certain way.. Luficer created what he is now.

TT,
I think that andwhat's question is deeper than that though. He's not asking for what you think Satan IS, and similarly, he's not suggesting that Satan IS God. What he's saying is that if God CREATED everything in the universe, including the Angels, regardless of free will or what have you, he still CREATED the Angel Lucifer.  So since lucifer CHOSE to become the embodiment of evil, he was STILL a creation of God. Thus, through the laws of logic, God CREATED Evil.  It doesn' t matter that Satan uses manipulation and deciet. It doesn't matter that he tempted Jesus. These are all irrelevant points. Again, the spewing forth of wrote-memorization to either a)avoid answering the question or b)cover up a lack of understanding abou the question itself.
You claimed that you can't blame God for evil. Well, even if you allow for the existance of your satan, you can still blame God.  I, however, choose to blame MAN for both. But that's neither here nor there with you I suppose...

Pmoney, i'm not trying to say that God is this awful being but if God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved and wiht him, then why would he give us free will when he knows some will choose not to follow him? Why wouldn't he just have all of us believe and be saved and then we don't have to go through all of this. I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't escape the fact that logically god created evil.

Jimmy and andwhat:

NOW you're having a discussion!  Let this non-believer volley back:

God also gave man free will so that they could come to Him with a pure heart, not just because He <i>made</i> them behave.  There's no satisfaction in just having a bunch of syncophants around.  Lucifer exercised <i>his</i> free will by turning to the "dark side".  So God didn't <i>create</i> evil so much as He allowed the choice of <i>becoming</i> evil.  That's why there's so many bad people around - just exercising their God-given free will.

In my quest, I've asked a lot of questions and been very fortunate to have wise and knowledgeable people who would explain their beliefs to me.

blonde, glad to see you're firing back at us. I undesrtand your argumetn that God simply allowed eveil, but if god created everything, then God created evil. This still doesn't answer where it originally came from. It answers why we have it now, but where's the start.
As for the free will argument, good job with the open heart, but I'm worried that many people don't come to God with an open heart but rather out of fear. I read Hessien's post on the what happened to the old time church forum and when he said what happened to the fear of God being taught i couldn't help but to think of this.As for god doesn't want a bunch of synchopaths just to follow him, I'd have to say that if the endgame is either everlasting joy or everlasting damnation the stakes are pretty damn high and if you love someone that much (as god supposedly loves all of us) how could you possibly let someone make that choice. Its kinda like your friend about to jump off of a bridge. If you love them, then you're going to do everything you can to stop them, you're not going to leave it up to their own free will.

Dee Jay,

You know that I was once a member of an ultra-fundamentalist group. I even quit a job in hopes of being sent out as a missionary. Read the Bible many times, and tons of sermons, ante-Nicene writers, books and various material. And one thing I cannot grasp about free will. And that is, the consequences God has for those who choose not to do as he asks.

Concepts such as grace notwithstanding, the bottom line comes down to : do this and you're ok - do that, and I'll let you suffer horribly forever and ever. But hey, it IS your choice.

Now if a *human* being did that, we'd call him some kind of psychopath, a nut case. I mean, do you REALLY have a choice?

I mean, how would you feel if I told you, agree with me, and everything is cool. *Disagree* with me, and I'll (long list of horrible tortures that I won't delineate). But hey, it's your choice.

Now if we think people are crazy for doing this, why is it normal for God, who is love, to do this?

My only thought is that somehow, there MUST be merit in doing good, and goodness, for its OWN sake, but I've actually found that most of the time, it's just damned hard, and there's no reward. (None of that, reward will be great in heaven - that goes back to my first point).

What do y'all think?

I was wondering when you'd join us, Frank!

That's one of the many reasons I came to the conclusion that there is no "God", as described by the religious people.  I'm not a faith-based person - I have to see to believe.  That said, I respect anyone's religious beliefs that don't include human sacrifice.

I don't find it hard to be "good" and, Frank, I suspect you don't either - not really.  I mean, do you <i>want</i> to kill?  Do drugs?  Lie?  Cheat? Steal?  Beat your cats?  (Okay, leave off that last one...) So how hard is it to avoid those activities?  For me, not very hard at all.  And it's not because some imaginary being is standing over me - it's because I don't feel good about myself when I do bad things.  I don't need God to drop the hammer on me - I'll do it to myself just fine.

I think the damnation you get when you sin is self-inflicted, as is the salvation when you act right.  But you still have a choice.

Dee Jay, if you've ever been fundamentalist, you must then know that the call for personal holiness - being "good" - goes WAY past the 'big' sins. It calls for a life of service, unselfishness and humility. There are the other scriptures - such as, anyone who knows the good he ought to do, and doesn't do it, sins. Anything that doesn't proceed from faith, is sin. Be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect. Jesus even referred to his OWN followers as 'evil' ("if you, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...").

And there's other - for one thing, the whole sex thing. (Honestly, I wish people would just say, hey, I disagree with the Bible, than try to claim the Bible says this or that is "ok".) There's the scripture that says that anyone who doesn't love his brother is a murderer. And to be honest - if you don't give your employer the very best you can do, all the time - you're a thief. You're stealing from them.

I think being good enough to stay out of jail is pretty damned easy. I think being good enough to be a great Christian role model is about the hardest thing there is. And - well, back to my previous point - God rewards one, but damns the other - it still doesn't seem like a free choice.

Frank,

I doesn't seem like a free choice; you're right.  I suspect this is why many sociologists subscribe to theories that suggest that we have no "free will" of our own anyway.  Our actions are determined by genetic and environmental factors (nature AND nurture) and, thus, are not our own choices to make...but I'm getting a bit off topic.
I wholeheartedly agree that God's logic there seems to be faulty. "Here are your choices: make the right one and you will be granted heaven. Make the wrong; hell. Oh, and by the way, here are some easily misinterpreted laws brought to you by men, whom I have created to be flawed, and I'm gonna pretty much send you no physical sign of my existance for the next 2000+years.  Oh and if you're unfortunate enough to not really be shown these rules, well, it breaks my heart, but you're going to hell as well. Oh and it really makes me sad when people don't obey me. Or angy. Depends on the circumstances.  Well, good luck!"

I just think that God seems like this flawed parent here.  Certainly not an "all-powerful-all-knowing" diety.  Now, I'm not saying there isn't SOME sort of a God-esque thing out there beyond my human comprehension. But that's just the point. Anything with that amount of power and scope would be beyond human conception anyway so why bother and figure out what "it" wants or what "pisses it off"?  Live by the rules of society--social contracts--and society will evolve.  Allow for changes in ways of thinking and doing things. That's the only thing thats ever advanced our society. Not regressing into fundamentalist views and never changing anything...
Well, ok, I'm off my soapbox now...you're right, TT...sometimes it just feels like your time...

Jimmy and Frank, great job. I have one to add though Jimmy, I, God will determine your fate for the rest of eternity on what you do in roughly 70 years (if you are lucky to live that long) What kind of shaft is that?

Shaft, can you dig it?  Sorry I could not help it.:lmao: