What do you think Jesus meant when he said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Our cross are the burdens we bear. We each have trials in our lives. Push through them and keep following Jesus. Each Christian has a calling in God's plan. We need to take up that calling, job, and do it. Keep doing it.

Every Christian has this "cross."Matthew 28:18-20

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
That is in addition to our individual "burdens."

What do you think Jesus meant when he said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." :whistle: Jesus said it to anyone and everyone so it means whatever you yourself thinks it means.

What do you think it means? :yeahthat:

Our cross are the burdens we bear. We each have trials in our lives. Push through them and keep following Jesus. Each Christian has a calling in God's plan. We need to take up that calling, job, and do it. Keep doing it.

Every Christian has this "cross."That is in addition to our individual "burdens."

So, God's call and the result of following Christ is a burden? I wonder why Jesus chose to use the term "cross". Jesus also said to follow him because his burden is light.

That saying comes from Matthew 17 : vs 24. Then verses 25 through 28 seem to explain His statement.

vs 25 says: "For whosoever shall save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"

vs 26 explains further: "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give for his soul?"

vs 27 an 28 add more rationale to His meanings.

I think He's saying - give up your own worldliness, it will get you nowhere, follow mine and you will receive everlasting life.
JMHO

So, God's call and the result of following Christ is a burden?
It is a burden - yes - because you will always been seen in an unfavorable light when trying to spread the Good News of Christ to the secular public. You will be persecuted in a variety of ways...by those who have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. What is right...is not always popular.....what is popular is not always right.


I wonder why Jesus chose to use the term "cross".
It is the one thing which most will identify as being a symbol for the act of personal sacrifice (imo). I think that Jesus understood that people are more reactive to things which are physical in nature - that they can identify with. Simply saying that you need to sacrifice for sake of your salvation - may have been too abstract of a statement for people to understand the importance of the sacrifice itself. Back in the day folks sacrificed animals (lambs, doves, goats) for the atonement of their sins. The cross was a different form of sacrifice....it meant personal sacrifice... no animals...for atonement of sins. It was the individual Christian who is intended to bear the "pain" (inflicted by their peers) for choosing to follow Christ.

Another thing of consideration is the fact that the cross was used to punish criminals...because Christ was not a criminal but was crucified anyways...the act of carrying the cross is also a reminder of the trials of Christ. Chist was willing to allow himself to be tempted, tried, disputed, persecuted, and murdered ALL for the sake of saving all of God's children.....of which still wanted signs of miracles to prove Christ was who he said he was....up to the moment of his last breath. So, why not just stone Christ? Why crucify him….give him the worst known form of punishment at the time? I dunno…perhaps the people were so offended that their anger took the best of them…and made them not think clearly. Then again, considering the area and looking at present day happenings…I don’t think that those folks have ever been right in the head.

Jesus also said to follow him because his burden is light.

2A will know the passage that talks about having faith the size of a mustard seed - and being able to move mountains. There is a lot that goes in to that. I think Christ was saying that through your faith, your ability to follow him will be not be a hard job....but not easy. A burden...whether light or heavy...is still a burden. No burden comes without inconvenience and/or pain.

It is a burden - yes - because you will always been seen in an unfavorable light when trying to spread the Good News of Christ to the secular public. You will be persecuted in a variety of ways...by those who have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. What is right...is not always popular.....what is popular is not always right.


2A will know the passage that talks about having faith the size of a mustard seed - and being able to move mountains. There is a lot that goes in to that. I think Christ was saying that through your faith, your ability to follow him will be not be a hard job....but not easy. A burden...whether light or heavy...is still a burden. No burden comes without inconvenience and/or pain.

True enough.

One of His parables mention, or shall I say compare the Kingdom of Heaven and the growth of a grain of mustard seed:

Matthew 13: vs 31-32:

"Another parable He put forth unto them saying: The Kindgom of Heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Which is indeed the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

So, God's call and the result of following Christ is a burden? I wonder why Jesus chose to use the term "cross". Jesus also said to follow him because his burden is light. :bigwhoop: It really is better if you do not let other people do the thinking for you.

God gave us brains and we are expected to use the brain. What other people think is their business. When you meet your Maker and say well the Bible said this and other people told me it meant that so you did not think for yourself.

The Bible is given to everyone and not for others to tell us what it says. If one knows how to read and write then one has the ability to understand the whole Bible with one's own mentality. Other people like preachers and Priest can help and even guide but ultimately one must make our own decisions and make our own beliefs for ourselves or else you have none.
:gossip:

God gave us brains and we are expected to use the brain. What other people think is their business. When you meet your Maker and say well the Bible said this and other people told me it meant that so you did not think for yourself.

God gave us community as well. We commune with others who share the same beliefs that we hold to be true. What do you do when you are not sure what to believe? You are only going to get so much understanding from text….and not everyone is as good as you are at reading between the lines. To obtain a greater knowledge of things, we ask questions. In response – you attack those who ask questions and imply that they are ignorant. THEY ARE retard!! Why do you think they are asking questions?? To get a deeper, more meaningful understanding of God’s word. I know, you don’t go to bible study do you? I’d question it if you did….after reading your post….I’d have to think that you didn’t use your own brain.


If one knows how to read and write then one has the ability to understand the whole Bible with one's own mentality.

I half agree…. One will only understand text from the perspective that they see things….if they only see things from that one perspective…they become blind to the possible truth of things. What if their perspective is wrong…a misunderstanding? I guess then we have people actually murdering their children in the name of sacrifice for God. Perhaps we’d even have people who will accept all wording of the Bible as being literal. Again…its all based on a perspective. What if that perspective is wrong? Only way to right the wrong is to ask questions….get the needed understanding. We are all ignorant and NOT all-knowing of the lessons of life…

But then again – we don’t all have the honor of owning the name of JPC do we?

Once we gain a deeper understanding of the meanings of the Bible, then we can (as you said) “make our own decisions and make our own beliefs for ourselves”

:bigwhoop: It really is better if you do not let other people do the thinking for you.

God gave us brains and we are expected to use the brain. What other people think is their business. When you meet your Maker and say well the Bible said this and other people told me it meant that so you did not think for yourself.

The Bible is given to everyone and not for others to tell us what it says. If one knows how to read and write then one has the ability to understand the whole Bible with one's own mentality. Other people like preachers and Priest can help and even guide but ultimately one must make our own decisions and make our own beliefs for ourselves or else you have none.
:gossip:

JPC, it seems as though brendar buhl is looking for interpretations, or even opinions, on Bible subject matter, that he or she is having a bit of trouble understanding.

True, opinions are like azz###les, and everybody has one, however, sometimes, maybe what that person simply needs is a germ of an idea, just a whisp, and that may further spur their understanding of a passage in the Bible.

If you truly understand every passage in the Bible, well sir, my hat is off to you. Even the greatest theologians have said they cannot explain every single statement God or Jesus has said in there.

They say, sometimes, there is just no answer to what a particular passage means.

Example: J. Vernon McGee, a noted pastor, radio broadcaster and college professor, who wrote a series of books on the Bible, titled "Through The Bible", came out and flat said "there are passages in the Bible that I simply
cannot explain, and when I get to those, I will tell you just that." (instead of trying to make something up, that I cannot find reference for.)

I read that quote from his Vol IV book, "The Four Gospels, including Acts and Romans."

God gave us community as well. We commune with others who share the same beliefs that we hold to be true. What do you do when you are not sure what to believe? You are only going to get so much understanding from text….and not everyone is as good as you are at reading between the lines. To obtain a greater knowledge of things, we ask questions. :popcorn: I probably was a bit harsh in my post so I can only hope that the point was made without any confusion. For me I have studied many scriptures for many years and I find that asking religious questions to ther people is just giving away one's God given power and God given authority that all human beings already have. The true teachings of religion and from Crist is take up thy own cross (as was asked in the first post here) and that means we take up our own cross and do not be asking others to carry it for us by asking others the questions that one must find out for one self. Asking others for physical directions or for physical help and using the books and teachings of others is fine but the quest to answer our own questions is what our destiny and our birthright is all about. One must find their own answers. In response – you attack those who ask questions and imply that they are ignorant. THEY ARE retard!! :popcorn: Others here call names and do their secret karma name calling but I respect both the ignorant and the retarded as if they are my own bretheren.

I told and still tell others to use their own mind and their own conscience to find our own answers. Then the ignorance can end and enlightenment can begin. I trust their brains even if they do not.Why do you think they are asking questions?? To get a deeper, more meaningful understanding of God’s word. :coffee: I do not see that as correct. People ask questions because they do not like their own answers. If some other person tells them that wrong is right then the person can blame the other for that answer. It would be different if one can not read or write and then ask what does God say, but it is a lot less honorable to ask what does 2A say because they will not ask God on their own and 2A gives a more pleasing answer then what what the Bible says.I know, you don’t go to bible study do you? I’d question it if you did….after reading your post….I’d have to think that you didn’t use your own brain. :bigwhoop: I have gone to Bible studies before and they are thoroughly irritating. And when I speak up to tell the class what the scriptures say they tend to get irritated too. So I do not like Bible study because they do not factually use the Bible to study but rather they have a person teacher that tells the class what they say the Bible says. Most people just do not want the truth. It could be out of fear, or hypocricy, but it sure is irritating. I half agree…. One will only understand text from the perspective that they see things….if they only see things from that one perspective…they become blind to the possible truth of things. What if their perspective is wrong…a misunderstanding? :bigwhoop: It is okay to be wrong, it happens to us all, wrong will often come before getting it right, that is normal healthy growing. If some one knocks my down out of a mistake then it is far easier to forgive then one that does such things out of malice. I guess then we have people actually murdering their children in the name of sacrifice for God. :popcorn: We can not run nor hide from such things. People today will have an abortion saying / believing it is the right thing to do. Saying it is right is a sacrifice to God. I say it is equivolent to a sin offering as done in the old Testement. They are wrong but it happens. We must see things for what it is. Perhaps we’d even have people who will accept all wording of the Bible as being literal. :coffee: There are some groups like the Jesus seminar that are trying to teach the public a more correct truth about the Bible so if one seeks the truth it is possible to find it. It was many years that I thought the Bible was literal and it was a shock to my self to find out the error but now I thank God for curing my own ignorance. I think this is particularly what needs to be taught to have a new revival and bury the old dead way. Again…its all based on a perspective. What if that perspective is wrong? :coffee: It is okay to be wrong. Being wrong is the first step to becoming right.Only way to right the wrong is to ask questions….get the needed understanding. We are all ignorant and NOT all-knowing of the lessons of life… :bigwhoop: We have to seek the truth by one self and the truth can be found - in full.
Once we gain a deeper understanding of the meanings of the Bible, then we can (as you said) “make our own decisions and make our own beliefs for ourselves” :coffee: Amen, that is it right there.

…we take up our own cross and do not be asking others to carry it for us by asking others the questions that one must find out for one self. Asking others for physical directions or for physical help and using the books and teachings of others is fine but the quest to answer our own questions is what our destiny and our birthright is all about. One must find their own answers.

What direction is heaven? I’m trying to get there and I’m lost? I have been reading this map all day but there are so many lines that run this way and that, I’m confused. I just keep going in circles with my life. I need someone to help point me in the right direction or better that – help me understand how to read this map. Can you help me JPC? Oh..sorry it is your policy not to help those lost… Its all right.. I’ll just keep on going in circles while you parade around with your “I’m going to heaven and you’re not cause you havn’t a clue” banner. I’ll respect you more now.

No…don’t mind me… really. The understanding of how to read this may will sink in via osmosis one day. Perhaps I may even run into someone like Moses who will give me a tablet of words which will help me in my quest for salvation. I hear he was a good guy… I dunno if I should trust him though…because he is a man and not God. He could have written the words on the tablet just to deceive me….although I don’t understand for what agenda he would base his motive on. Guess I’ll figure that out when I am burning in hell…..looking up at your banner. Thanks for lending a hand…brother?

It’s a good thing I was not looking for a sandwich, or directions to a shelter so I would have a place to lay my head. I understand - you would have told me that I would have to find those things on my own. Christians should not help one another after all. No, I just need to wait for God to enlighten me somehow so that I would have the knowledge needed to help myself. Then again, I did think that my fellow Christian brothers and sisters were the very blessings that God had sent to help me find the right direction to heaven and stay on course. Naw….that couldn’t be the case. Right JPC………JPC…..***where’d he go???***

***Looking up***

Oh…there you are….with your banner….go figure. Thanks …..umm…..bro?

:confused: :confused: :ohwell: :ohwell:

So, God's call and the result of following Christ is a burden? I wonder why Jesus chose to use the term "cross". Jesus also said to follow him because his burden is light.
He called it a cross because Christians then and now are persecuted, made fun of, and even killed. Try to live as a Christian in a Muslim country.

His burden is light. I love God. But trials and tribulation that the world heaps on Christians is not easy, therefore a burden or load, but easily bearable through God's strength.

... The true teachings of religion and from Crist is take up thy own cross (as was asked in the first post here) and that means we take up our own cross and do not be asking others to carry it for us by asking others the questions that one must find out for one self. Wrong again.Why do you think there are ministers, pastors, and teachers? 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.By the way, who is Crist? Did you mean Christ? More properly, The Christ, as it is a title and not a name.
Asking others for physical directions or for physical help and using the books and teachings of others is fine but the quest to answer our own questions is what our destiny and our birthright is all about. One must find their own answers. :popcorn: Others here call names and do their secret karma name calling but I respect both the ignorant and the retarded as if they are my own bretheren.It is not bad for the blind to ask for help from those that see. It is not bad for the lame to ask for help from those that can walk. It is not bad for someone who is seeking God to ask those that know Him; some are appointed as teachers. You rely on your own "wisdom" and time after time it is so unwise. You should respect the ignorant and the mentally disabled (retarded is a disrespectful term for someone that says they respect those that have that disability). The ignorant don't know but can learn. The mentally disabled have problems discerning man's wisdom, but God grant them grace that those without that disability rarely find. You are neither ignorant nor mentally handicapped; you just make very poor decisions and do not learn well.
I told and still tell others to use their own mind and their own conscience to find our own answers. Then the ignorance can end and enlightenment can begin. I trust their brains even if they do not. :coffee: I do not see that as correct. People ask questions because they do not like their own answers. If some other person tells them that wrong is right then the person can blame the other for that answer. It would be different if one can not read or write and then ask what does God say, but it is a lot less honorable to ask what does 2A say because they will not ask God on their own and 2A gives a more pleasing answer then what what the Bible says. :bigwhoop:Now that is just a lie. I do not sugar coat anything. I quote the Bible. You, on the other hand, say that everyone goes to heaven. That is absolutely wrong and you have been told so by me and the two pastors at church and they finally told you it was a lie from hell from the pulpit because you would not believe them when they came to you and told you in private. I have gone to Bible studies before and they are thoroughly irritating. And when I speak up to tell the class what the scriptures say they tend to get irritated too. That is because you haven't got the foggiest idea of what the Bible really says and when you speak, what you say could lead someone away from Biblical truth into your fantasy land.So I do not like Bible study because they do not factually use the Bible to study but rather they have a person teacher that tells the class what they say the Bible says. Most people just do not want the truth. It could be out of fear, or hypocricy, but it sure is irritating. You do not like anything or anybody that tells you that you are wrong. You don't know the truth; you only have your fantasies.:bigwhoop: It is okay to be wrong, it happens to us all, wrong will often come before getting it right, that is normal healthy growing. If some one knocks my down out of a mistake then it is far easier to forgive then one that does such things out of malice. :popcorn: We can not run nor hide from such things. People today will have an abortion saying / believing it is the right thing to do. Saying it is right is a sacrifice to God. I say it is equivolent to a sin offering as done in the old Testement. They are wrong but it happens. We must see things for what it is. You never, well rarely, see things the way they are. An abortion is not and is in no way similar to a sin offering to God. Not only that, no sacrifices are needed at all. All sacrifices are worthless; we can do nothing to deserve God's grace; God gave the only sacrifice ever needed for all time when Jesus died on the cross. Christians try live to please God to show our love for God because it is the right thing to do. You hardly ever see anything for what it is.:coffee: There are some groups like the Jesus seminar that are trying to teach the public a more correct truth about the Bible so if one seeks the truth it is possible to find it. It was many years that I thought the Bible was literal and it was a shock to my self to find out the error but now I thank God for curing my own ignorance. I think this is particularly what needs to be taught to have a new revival and bury the old dead way. :coffee: It is okay to be wrong. Being wrong is the first step to becoming right. :bigwhoop: We have to seek the truth by one self and the truth can be found - in full. :coffee: Amen, that is it right there.The Jesus seminar is where you got the idea that satan and everyone is going to be saved. That is a lie from the pits of hell. You want to follow their teachings, because they teach what you want to hear. They "tickle" your ears. 2 Timothy 4:1-4

1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.The Jesus seminar teaches myths and they fit right in with your fantasies. Also notice that those same passages instruct to "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." Instruction is most often received when someone asks a question.JPC, Sr., consider yourself reproved and rebuked again.

I knew it was just a matter of time before 2A tore that apart....lmbo

JPC, I cannot call you a total idiot, no, just an idiot! You have gone and professed a lot of BS, and in the making, you have really pizzed 2nd A off with your rantings.

Me, I tried to mediate just a little, where I said some people have a hard time interpreting or wrapping themselves around what the meaning of some of Christ's sayings are trying to tell us, as Christians.

Sometimes, they merely need the gist of the thought, and they are more than ably equipped to grasp an intention or an idea.

You went totally overboard with your explanations and rationalizations.

Mostly, I'm sorry to see that you seem to live on another planet entirely.

I do wonder who is interpreting that Bible of your's, that you appear to be getting your information from. Because it's not the one I'm reading from.

We are supposed to be helping each other learn, appreciate and comprehend what our Bible is telling us. I do not see much help coming from your corner.

Wow. I was really surprised when I got on the computer to find all of this interest in the thread that I had posted. Come to find out, very little of the conversation had to do with the topic.

I will first respond to JPC: For someone who derides others for asking questions you sure do seem to have a lot of answers. In other words if we are to learn everything on our own then there is no need for you to tell us so. Let me figure out for myself that I have to learn everything on my own. Here’s a rhetorical question for you, I don’t want you to answer it lest you violate your own credo. If we are to “bear our own cross without relying on others to help", why did Jesus allow Simon to carry his cross? Aren’t we supposed to be imitators of Christ?

And now to everyone else, I enjoyed reading all of your ideas. I was not asking out of ignorance but rather to broaden my point of view on the matter.
Some of you expressed the classical explanation of the verse which is actually what I’ve been pulling away from lately, the idea that the Christian life is burdensome. It usually goes along with the idea that we need to wait until we pass from this world to the next to experience the “Kingdom of Heaven”. I’m wondering if in some ways we can’t pass from this world, after all John the Baptist preached, “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”
I’ve been thinking lately about my human perspective and what it means to die to self. If I look at the context in the Gospel of Matthew Jesus says this about your “cross” right after he admonishes Peter for "having in mind the things of man instead of the things of God". I think that the “system” of this world (the things of man) is going to kill us. Its substance is the lumber of that cross upon which will hang the frame of our worldly self. I think that bearing our cross is the same dieing to self that Jesus mentioned earlier but now more vividly. But it is no burden, only the trading of the worthless things of this world for those of great value in the Heavenly Kingdom.

Quoting brendar buhl:

"I’ve been thinking lately about my human perspective and what it means to die to self. If I look at the context in the Gospel of Matthew Jesus says this about your “cross” right after he admonishes Peter for "having in mind the things of man instead of the things of God". I think that the “system” of this world (the things of man) is going to kill us. Its substance is the lumber of that cross upon which will hang the frame of our worldly self. I think that bearing our cross is the same dieing to self that Jesus mentioned earlier but now more vividly. But it is no burden, only the trading of the worthless things of this world for those of great value in the Heavenly Kingdom."<!-- / message -->


That is what I was getting at when I posted Jesus' sayings in Mattew 17 vs 25 and 26.

To paraphrase Verse 26: What good does a man profit if, in the act, he loses his own soul? Or, what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

To me, He's talking about men delving too deep in worldliness, for their own sakes, and in the act, they lose their souls to another.(satan?)

Thanks for lending a hand…brother?

It’s a good thing I was not looking for a sandwich, or directions to a shelter so I would have a place to lay my head. I understand - you would have told me that I would have to find those things on my own. Christians should not help one another after all. :coffee: Well of course we need to help each other whether one is a Christian or not.

I am saying one must face God alone and thus have a personal relationship with God, and personal means alone and not with some other in the middle.

The Bible says here, Cursed is the man that trusteth in man," at Jerimiah 17:5-8, just click here for the text. (www.BibleGateWay.com/passage/?search=Jerimiah%2017:5-8;&version=9;)

And it is "cursed" if one does otherwise. :howdy:

I will first respond to JPC: For someone who derides others for asking questions you sure do seem to have a lot of answers. :coffee: That is the point in seeking out the truth (as Christ said to do) then you too will have the answers - but not some one else's answers posing as your own. That would be a lie. One must make the truth their own. In other words if we are to learn everything on our own then there is no need for you to tell us so. Let me figure out for myself that I have to learn everything on my own. :buddies: We do always learn from others, that is fine, but the final answer must be thy own. When a student is in school then one might ask the teacher how to do a math problem -or history or etc., but no one gets away with asking a true teacher just to give them the answers. If it happens then the teacher is not worthy of the student. Here’s a rhetorical question for you, I don’t want you to answer it lest you violate your own credo. :elaine: I love to answer questions as it does feed the ego, others surely feel the energy too, but it is like an addiction because it can be taken too far. Like teaching is not to be indoctrinating or brain washing. If we are to “bear our own cross without relying on others to help", why did Jesus allow Simon to carry his cross? Aren’t we supposed to be imitators of Christ? :elaine: The cross is more of a spiritual symbol more then a physical commandment. If I had to carry some heavy wooden cross then I would die in the process and I would most certainly sit down and refuse to do it. The point that most people do not know about Jesus carrying the physical cross is that he did it in defiance of the law. Jesus could have said "no" and He could have refused to carry it. I firmly believe He carried it as an act of defiance showing that He not only was not afraid of dying and not afraid or intimidated by their cross so that is why He willingly carried it. In jail no one does some thing willingly that they straight up do not want to do. Jesus could have had some one carry the damned thing all the way up the hill if Jesus has chosen to, but He carried the cross as His own testimony, the other guy that helped Christ carry it must have been amazed at the Christ.

When one commits an act of non violent civil disobediance then taking the punishment in full is the biggest part of the action.
:wench:

:coffee: That is the point in seeking out the truth (as Christ said to do) then you too will have the answers - but not some one else's answers posing as your own... I assure you that I will not try to take credit for any of your answers.

Wow. I was really surprised when I got on the computer to find all of this interest in the thread that I had posted. Come to find out, very little of the conversation had to do with the topic.

....

And now to everyone else, I enjoyed reading all of your ideas. I was not asking out of ignorance but rather to broaden my point of view on the matter.
Some of you expressed the classical explanation of the verse which is actually what I’ve been pulling away from lately, the idea that the Christian life is burdensome. It usually goes along with the idea that we need to wait until we pass from this world to the next to experience the “Kingdom of Heaven”. I’m wondering if in some ways we can’t pass from this world, after all John the Baptist preached, “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”
I’ve been thinking lately about my human perspective and what it means to die to self. If I look at the context in the Gospel of Matthew Jesus says this about your “cross” right after he admonishes Peter for "having in mind the things of man instead of the things of God". I think that the “system” of this world (the things of man) is going to kill us. Its substance is the lumber of that cross upon which will hang the frame of our worldly self. I think that bearing our cross is the same dieing to self that Jesus mentioned earlier but now more vividly. But it is no burden, only the trading of the worthless things of this world for those of great value in the Heavenly Kingdom.Thanks for sharing. I hope I didn't give the idea that I mind bearing the burden of being a Christian. The Holy Spirit bears the weight and lifts me. I believe that your equating the "cross" to dieing to self is accurate, but I do not see a conflict with what you term the classical view. I see your point as part of the classical view.

John the Baptist was referring to Jesus when he preached, “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” Jesus said: John 8:23 And He was saying to them, " You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
As far as passing from this world, I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind. Matthew 5:14-15

14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.Christians cannot be the light of the world and withdraw from it.

I think when Jesus said: Matthew 11:30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.", He was referring to salvation through Him. He said of the scribes and Pharisees: Matthew 23:1-4

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

4"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
It is a contrast of the many burdensome laws and sacrifices that the scribes and pharisees laid on the Jews as opposed to the acceptance of salvation through the one and only sacrifice needed done by Him on the cross.

Paul spoke of following Jesus as a burden but that God had relieved them of that burden:2 Corinthians 1:8-11

8For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life;

9indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead;

10who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,

11you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many.

So I maintain that the life of a Christian has burdens, even death, our sins are also burdens, but our burdens, spiritual or physical, are to be shared with and by other Christians Galatians 6:1-3

1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But as Paul did, Christians are to count our afflictions (burdens but not sins) as joy.2 Corinthians 7:1-7

1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Make room for us in your hearts; we wronged no one, we corrupted no one, we took advantage of no one.

3I do not speak to condemn you, for I have said before that you are in our hearts to die together and to live together.

4Great is my confidence in you; great is my boasting on your behalf I am filled with comfort; I am overflowing with joy in all our affliction.

5For even when we came into Macedonia our flesh had no rest, but we were afflicted on every side: conflicts without, fears within.

6But God, who comforts the depressed, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

7and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted in you, as he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced even more.

2A - I think you set the record straight and once AGAIN shown to everyone that JPC is just a troll ....

I nominate JPC as the Drama King....lol as it seems that all he can ever do is stir the mud...

I assure you that I will not try to take credit for any of your answers. :hot: That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. (http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=66976) and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info. :drool:

:hot: That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. (http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=66976) and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info. :drool:


Where the hell does this idiot get this stuff, if it wasn't so sad it would be funny


i know this isn't new, but you are a total retard, not to mention a deadbeat MAROOOON!

:hot: That is cool.

When I came onto this Forum I asked the big question as does anyone know about the Jesus Seminar? and or does any one know Bible Scholar Criticism? Click here for link. (http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=66976) and after I found out that no one here had the modern education then I backed off. So I too have questions and I will discuss it with others to find the answers, but when the others are not educated (or wrongly educated) then I stand alone and learn alone.

I love it when some one teaches me some meaningful new info. :drool:
Yeah. Get your ears tickled. When it comes to Truth, you do this :lalala:

2A,
I think that when John the Baptist said “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” he was saying more than, "Here's the messiah". When I say "pass from this world" I am not talking about withdrawling from or avoiding the world or not having anything to do with the world. I'm talking about living as Jesus did. Jesus turned the "system of the world" upside down. He made the weak strong and the poor valuable. Jesus lived as though people mattered and materialism did not. Here's the thing that I'm getting at:
I say that I believe in Jesus but I don't live like he told me to live. I don't value the weak and unpopular, I don't listen to other people, I care more about being "right" than about loving my brother. I'm selfish, no, I'm self absorbed. When Jesus talks about "salvation" (as you put it) He offers to save me from myself. That's why he requires that we "die to self". I don't think he just means that when you die you go to heaven. Jesus is trying to redeem us from this "world" right here-right now. That is how we experience the "Kingdom of Heaven".

I'm not saying that other people are looking at things "wrong", I'm just saying that this is how I'm looking at things right now.

2A,
I think that when John the Baptist said “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” he was saying more than, "Here's the messiah". When I say "pass from this world" I am not talking about withdrawling from or avoiding the world or not having anything to do with the world. I'm talking about living as Jesus did. Jesus turned the "system of the world" upside down. He made the weak strong and the poor valuable. Jesus lived as though people mattered and materialism did not. Here's the thing that I'm getting at:
I say that I believe in Jesus but I don't live like he told me to live. I don't value the weak and unpopular, I don't listen to other people, I care more about being "right" than about loving my brother. I'm selfish, no, I'm self absorbed. When Jesus talks about "salvation" (as you put it) He offers to save me from myself. That's why he requires that we "die to self". I don't think he just means that when you die you go to heaven. Jesus is trying to redeem us from this "world" right here-right now. That is how we experience the "Kingdom of Heaven".

I'm not saying that other people are looking at things "wrong", I'm just saying that this is how I'm looking at things right now.OK.

Here is what I think. Christians are certainly to strive to be like Jesus; live like He did on earth, respect others like He did on earth, reprove others like He did on earth, go and preach like He did on earth and told us to, teach others like He did on earth, chastise the religious that were not Godly as He did on earth. How successful we are at doing so depends on our ability to yield self-control to Holy Spirit control. If a person is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, doing so is impossible. As a Christian yields control to the Holy Spirit, that person is conformed to be more like Jesus. We cannot do good in our power or by our will. The flesh is incapable of anything good. It is the Holy Spirit that does good through us. I don't think we have to reject worldly blessings. If we are blessed greatly, then we should use those blessings for the glory of God recognizing that all blessing come from God.

While I, like you, would like to have heaven on earth, I disagree with your idea about what John the Baptist was proclaiming. The earth, the one we live on now is the domain of satan. As it says in Job: Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
Satan is our accuser in heaven. Heaven is not on earth; they are separate. As I posted before:John 8:23 And He was saying to them, " You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
and
Revelation 12:7-9

7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war,

8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. This clearly states that heaven and earth are totally separate as are hell, earth, and heaven. Jesus taught that they are separate. Luke 16:19-31

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"Since Jesus said this, I am convinced that at the time of death the soul no longer remains on earth but goes either to Hades (hell) or heaven. Verse 31 is a comment on the future by Jesus. People then and now do not believe the Old Testament, Moses and the Prophets, so people did and do not believe in Jesus even though He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

I recommend that you do what I do. I test what I think against the scriptures. If what I think doesn't conform, then what I think must be incorrect.

God bless your search for His Truth.

2A, I am either a horrible communicator or you are just 100% completely missing my point. Thanks for the advice and all the Bible verses, but I am not saying that heaven and earth are the same place. Let me try one more time before I just give up. When ever Jesus told a parable he would say something like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." or "The Kingdom of God is like..." I think that Jesus was explaining to us the way things are in the "spiritual world" or the "eternal world". My perspective on things is all messed up because I exist in a fallen world, a totally messed up system where Satan has tricked men into trading the truth for a lie and trading the riches of the eternal for the dirt of the temporary. Jesus is telling us (and John the Baptist was pointing to this) that we don't have to live in that trap any more. We can die to the system of the world and be made alive to what God is doing in the eternal, spiritual world. I'm not saying that we will be in heaven all of a sudden but Jesus is offering us the opportunity to look at things from the right perspective.

2A, I am either a horrible communicator or you are just 100% completely missing my point. Thanks for the advice and all the Bible verses, but I am not saying that heaven and earth are the same place. Let me try one more time before I just give up. When ever Jesus told a parable he would say something like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." or "The Kingdom of God is like..." I think that Jesus was explaining to us the way things are in the "spiritual world" or the "eternal world". My perspective on things is all messed up because I exist in a fallen world, a totally messed up system where Satan has tricked men into trading the truth for a lie and trading the riches of the eternal for the dirt of the temporary. Jesus is telling us (and John the Baptist was pointing to this) that we don't have to live in that trap any more. We can die to the system of the world and be made alive to what God is doing in the eternal, spiritual world. I'm not saying that we will be in heaven all of a sudden but Jesus is offering us the opportunity to look at things from the right perspective.
I guess I have taken that Christians should look at things from a different perspective than the world for granted. Didn't mean to be obtuse.

Where the hell does this idiot get this stuff, if it wasn't so sad it would be funny


i know this isn't new, but you are a total retard, not to mention a deadbeat MAROOOON! :crazy: See here, "TexasPride77", this quote above :yeahthat: this is one of the posters here that does the name calling with "idiot" and "retard" and "moron" and such. It is never done by me. I grew up years ago and it is that kind of poster that does all the baby talk and not me.

Now I am not telling "Mnr" or anyone else to stop it and I am not telling them to grow up as y'all do as y'all want, but I just want to point out that the childish name calling does not come from me, and that I respect other people in my postings.
:offtopic:

:crazy: See here, "TexasPride77", this quote above :yeahthat: this is one of the posters here that does the name calling with "idiot" and "retard" and "moron" and such. It is never done by me. I grew up years ago and it is that kind of poster that does all the baby talk and not me.

Now I am not telling "Mnr" or anyone else to stop it and I am not telling them to grow up as y'all do as y'all want, but I just want to point out that the childish name calling does not come from me, and that I respect other people in my postings.
:offtopic:


JPC = obtuse :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: