Way to many differences in our opinions for me to address in one post, so I will just start with one that particularly caught my attention.

"American citizens have nothing to worry about unless they decide to engage in terrorism against the United States."

I'm sure Japanese Americans thought they had nothing to worry about after pearl harbor unless they engaged in some illegal activity against the US, but that unfortunately isn't the way it turned out.

I'm also sure that non violent communist and non communists alike in the US during Senator Joseph McCarthy's reign of terror though they had nothing to worry about since they were not violating any laws, but that didn't stop careers from being ruined by simple unsubstantiated accusations or association with an accused person.

These are only two of many, many examples that show people do have something to worry about when mass fear and unproven accusations are the only evidence of a crime. The single, biggest concern that I have over the current treatment of accused terrorists is the unwillingness of our executive branch to come forward and prove their accusations and submit them to judicial review. Your mention of military tribunals even starts to loose meaning considering the Bush administration’s current statement that they have no interest in ever trying some of the detainees. I would like to believe that the government does have overwhelming evidence against every person they currently have in custody, but until they come out and prove it, I am not willing to accept their claims.

Personally, I am very glad that heads are starting to cool over the 9/11 attack. Actions taken in the heat of the moment only cause more problems down the road.

Good points, and I agree totally. If you allow things to happen to one group of people, then it won't be long before it happens to your group.

What I found very troubling was a news conference about Jose Padillo, the latest U.S. citizen suspected of treason. They said that they had no plans yet to charge him with a crime, which I found silly, since then they'd have to release him within 48 hours. But they apparently decided to circumvent the constitution, and he's still being held without having been charged with a crime.

Granted the guy is scum, but an executive branch that ignores the Constitution is pretty scary.

Arguments to my opinion are not totally without merit, but both of the last responses are implicit slippery slope arguments. The idea that all Americans will eventually suffer because we're holding an American suspected of terrorist activity is unfounded.

Terrorists, whether American or otherwise, are much more like spies or military infiltrators out of uniform, whom other countries have summarily executed for centuries. "Rights" are not something to be plucked out of thin air -- they apply to those who play by the rules outlined under particular conventions. Enemy combatants, i.e. terrorists, have no intention of playing by any rules established by those who intend for others to follow them.

The Bush Administration is setting a precedent that could become dangerous only inasmuch that an administration lacking Bush's ethical and moral servitude could look at this confusing method of detention and apply it in immoral ways to otherwise innocent civilians...in this regard, I agree with you both that these decisions must be agreed to and implemented at the end of the day by Congress. We need new laws that would allow us to clearly indentify what we will do when dealing with terrorists in the coming decades. But for now, there is no sense pretending that there are any easy decisions being arrived at by the present administration when dealing with this new threat.

A couple points: in reference to the Japanese Americans that were detained during WWII. Not only was this roundup done by FDR, a Democratic president, but it has since not accounted for any reduction in rights afforded any American since. If ever there were an event that could threaten universal rights, it was this. Further, while all this was going on, Japanese Americans were coming forward in droves to volunteer in the fight agains the Axis powers ... they were not doing what the five Arab Americans today are doing who are showing no American pride whatsoever and suing airlines for supposed "profiling".

At the heart of the issue seems to be your fear that the US will slide right down the slippery slope to tyranny because we've detained "suspected" terrorists. That sheer assumption alone is ridiculous. The American people would never stand to live under totalitarian rule. Do you know any American who would ever allow himself to be dictated to? (!)

If Bush or anyone else were ever to start implementing martial law, the American system would snap them in two. Senators would start resigning and officials would refuse to cooperate. With all the commotion last week over the anniversary of the "massive" abuses of power Nixon claimed, people still refuse to discuss the fact that he RESIGNED. And ours is the country that even impeached Clinton!! As Jonah Goldberg has stated, it is sheer folly to believe that Americans would just fall over for a Hilter in a heartbeat.

In sum, I'm glad to know that the current administration isn't "cooling their heads" after 9-11. What an absurd statement... will you think the same thing after your guts are blown around Union Station next month by some of the same murderers that are presently romping around Israel? We face a danger unbeknownst to manking previously, at least here at home, and it's only going to get worse. You said it yourselves...Padilla and his buddies are scumbags. They deserve to be treated as such. Theories about unlawfulness and corruption are great -- it just seems we never get to experience the theory b/c reality takes over for it. And right now, the reality in this country is what matters...I'm not worried about some grand theoretical predictions in a term paper suffocating me quite as much as a nuclear attack on DC -- and neither should you.

TB

I too find it absurd that Jose Padillo is being held without being charged with a crime. He should have had a bullet in his head long before now.

My solution for terrorism: Rebuild the twin towers, march convicted terrorists up the stairs to the 110th floor and throw them off the building, after of course covering them in pig blood or whatever else their religion says will cause them to go to hell.

It may not be constitutional, but we would probably only have to do it a few times before the terrorism stopped. Problem solved.

in reference to the Japanese Americans that were detained during WWII. Not only was this roundup done by FDR, a Democratic president, but it has since not accounted for any reduction in rights afforded any American since. If ever there were an event that could threaten universal rights, it was this. Further, while all this was going on, Japanese Americans were coming forward in droves to volunteer in the fight agains the Axis powers

I thought the justification for the camps was the fear that Japanese Americans would rise up and attack America from within. I never understood why the government thought the Japanese would do this and not the Germans and Italians. Anyway, since Japanese Americans volunteered in droves to defend this country, didn't that disprove the government's argument?

Here's a good article on this subject I came across.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56116,00.html

I think the last paragraph says it all.

"Personal liberties in a free society are rarely diminished overnight. Rather, they are lost gradually, by the acts of well-meaning people, with good intentions, amid public approval. But the subtle loss of freedom is never recognized until the crisis is over and we look back in horror. And then it is too late."

I respect the opinions of everyone who takes the time to read my articles, especially considering the severity of the crisis we're facing. And let me also be the first to say that it is refreshing to engage in intelligent debate and discourse on a topic rather than having to read the all-too-prevalent statements we often read in these forums such as, "You're just stupid".

What is interesting to me is that so many people are worried about our rights being eliminated over time, as Warron's last comment pointed out. But where are all the people complaining about the much more severe everyday issues such as our schools not being able to celebrate American holidays such as Christmas and Mother's Day -- or saying the Pledge of Allegiance in schools? Or communities that make latent laws progressively lowering drinking ages or even allowing neighbors to sue one another if they smell cigarette smoke waft over a fence? Or enforcing gun control to the point that the only people who will be protected by guns are the criminals themselves? How about the world of academia that is so far left that a known fundraiser for the Hamas movement was the keynote commencement speaker at Harvard two weeks ago? Or the so-called "feminists", the graying bra-burners of the 60's, who are so hypocritical in their "fights" that they demonize the working women of today who are independent enough to actually choose to forgo a career to go back into their home and raise their children (the same ones who refused to take the side of a Monica Lewinsky or Linda Tripp, women who have actually been taken advantage of by men on power trips in this country)?

Everything today is about supporting "the cause", regardless of how many we have to scapegoat or undermine to do so. Rarely do we find groups that fight for the rights of everyone; indeed, those who get the most respect among many bureaucrats and those in academia are the very groups that exploit their own bigotry in their efforts to condemn those they disagree with.

I said yesterday that instead of raking over the coals of the past we should revisit our laws and decide how to more appropriately deal with this new terrorism. And while any abuse of power can be detrimental to society, I can assure you the decisions the Bush administration are making with regard to alleged terrorists will be much less damaging than all the PC garbage that has continued even after such a devastating (supposed) reality check as 9-11.

We do not need to worry about corruption at the executive level of government nearly as much as we do as at the executive levels of our state and local governments. Everyday people in our communities are feeling the wrath of liberal bureaucrats every day as they seek to destroy many traditions we've held dear for years, desensitizing us all to any differences among us. That was also once a trait that our country held dear.

Ya'll are just stupid!!! ;) (sorry couldn't resist Trevor). But anyway....

I thought the justification for the camps was the fear that Japanese Americans would rise up and attack America from within. I never understood why the government thought the Japanese would do this and not the Germans and Italians.

Well it was Japan who had the nads to bomb Pearl Harbor, not the Germans or the Italians. It's very easy to look back in hindsight to find flaws in judgements that are/were made during War time. One of our bad moves was to park all of our aircraft in the middle of the airstrip wing tip to wing tip, wide open for Japanese bombs. The reason this was done was because there was more fear of sabotage than bombing. It was a more likely scenario. I mean, who'd have really expected to be bombed by the Japanese before it happened. Same goes for the twin towers.

What gets my panties in a bunch is everyone and their brother screaming that the Intelligence Agencies had information that could have alerted us all to what was going to happen. They had a couple of phone conversations that said "tomorrow is day zero". Yeah I'd have seen right then and there a bunch of terrorists were going to run a couple planes into our buildings. Jeesh!

What gets them in a bunch even more is members of Congress leaking intelligence information like a sieve! Whatever moron it was that leaked the exact translation of the above message just shut down a possibly valuable source of Intelligence collection. "Hey Mohammed, I think they may be tapping our phone line". Dorks!

Which brings me to my point on being all for holding these folks down in GITMO for the duration as unlawful comabatants. I don't think anyone has a clue of how much "sensitive information" was brought out during the trial of the first group of terrorists that bombed the World Trade Center. All the "overwhelming evidence" we had to produce to prosecute these folks revealed their leaks, which got closed quickly due to freedom of the press.

So then we're back to that vicious circle of pointing fingers at the Intelligence folks for not knowing what the terrorists are up to.

I'm finished (stepping off the soap box)

Originally posted by Christy
...What gets them in a bunch even more is members of Congress leaking intelligence information like a sieve! Whatever moron it was that leaked the exact translation of the above message just shut down a possibly valuable source of Intelligence collection. "Hey Mohammed, I think they may be tapping our phone line". Dorks!...

And what's priceless is Tom Daschle complaining continuously that the Bush administration isn't telling them anything!

Gee! I wonder why? Un-F---ing-believable!

Originally posted by trevor
And let me also be the first to say that it is refreshing to engage in intelligent debate and discourse on a topic rather than having to read the all-too-prevalent statements we often read in these forums such as, "You're just stupid".
I can't agree more! But, back to the point of this thread, if we allow some of our rights to be overlooked, then what's the use of having a bill of rights? The slippery slope argument is a doomsday type of view, but it does have merit. Courts are so concerned about citing precendence, that if someone (using this case as an example) was once held for a month without being charged with a crime, then a court may find it acceptable to do the same in some other completely unrelated case. True, it's not likely that rights will be violated on a large scale (it has happened on small scales), but the principle of rights must be upheld. If not, then the constitution is meaningless.

But where are all the people complaining about the much more severe everyday issues such as our schools not being able to celebrate American holidays such as Christmas and Mother's Day
Minor correction here, Trevor: Christmas is a Christian holiday, not an American one. And I agree that many people just go way overboard with these things. Like expelling a student for taking aspirin because there's a zero tolerance for drugs in the school, or suing McDonalds when the coffee you put between your legs as you drove away spilled and you got burned. It reminds me of a Far Side cartoon, where God was in his lab, making the Earth. He took a jar labeled "Jerks" and started sprinkling them on, saying "Just to make things interesting".

Courts are so concerned about citing precendence, that if someone (using this case as an example) was once held for a month without being charged with a crime, then a court may find it acceptable to do the same in some other completely unrelated case. True, it's not likely that rights will be violated on a large scale (it has happened on small scales), but the principle of rights must be upheld. If not, then the constitution is meaningless.

The difference is, these folks (except for one) is not a U.S. citizen, therefore not afforded the same rights under our constitution. As for the one, you could make a case that he's not an American Citizen, as that right can be yanked due to his allegiance to "the enemy".

Personally, I think these "Unlawful Combatants" are getting a pretty good deal. Last time the laws regarding Unlawful Combatants was used, they were all executed in very short time.

Actually, foreign nationals are indeed afforded the same rights as citizens. The same thing happens when we go to other countries; we have to abide by their laws, and are afforded the rights of that country, not U.S. rights/laws. I'm not sure how combatants are handled, though.

Okay, Mr. BudoPo, I can't believe you're slamming me b/c I referred to Christmas as an American holiday!! :)

Of course, I know it's a Christian holiday, but allow me to elaborate on my miscue... I believe holidays such as Christmas and Easter have become more like traditions in this country than merely religious observations. Which is why you see malls filled to the hilt with children during the holidays to sit on Santa's and the Easter Bunny's lap.

The mere fact that Christmas is celebrated by Christians and non-Christians alike is indicative of it's traditional nature to all Americans... in fact, Christmas is even celebrated in many instances by people of Jewish faith, and it's even celebrated in Japan. I pointed this out in a previous thread a couple months ago, but one of my favorite quotes came from National Review Online editor Jonah Goldberg (who is Jewish) when he wrote in a a column that when he was a kid, they hung a sign from their Christmas tree that read, "Santa knows we're Jewish".

As far as foreign nationals go, Christy is doing a good job debating that one.... but we don't assume foreign nationals to be terrorists. There are hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals here legally on business or scholarship, and of course they are afforded the same rights we would demand if we were in Europe or Israel, but the caveat that the administration has been sticking to is that they are not bona fide soldiers; they are unlawful combatants.

We need to start putting the burden of proof on these terrorists who are contemplating acts of terror in the first place instead of on law abiding citizens who are trying to deal with their murderous behavior...if they don't care how they treat us, or even if they die in the process, I don't see why it should bother us too much.

Trevor,
I didn't mean to slam you. If I came across that way, I appologize. It was certainly not my intent. I was just pointing out that Christmas and Easter are Christian holidays. It's a minor point that I just wanted to clarify. Being someone who is not Christian, it gets under my skin a little, that's all. True, they are pretty well part of the American culture, since this country is overwhelmingly Christian. Jews who celebrate Christmas are either the Jews for Jesus folks, or (more typically) trying to assimilate into the American culture (ie, to be like everyone else). This actually is how the tradition of Chanukah gifts started. I myself am Jewish, and naturally don't celebrate Christian holidays. I do appreciate the fesitive mood Chrismas brings, though, and do send a card to a few Christian friends. I suspect this is why some Japanese celebrate it (since most of them are not Christian).

(oops, after typing all that, I just now noticed your smilie after your "slamming" sentence).

Christy,
You said that "these folks (except for one) is not a U.S. citizen, therefore not afforded the same rights under our constitution." To me, that means you're saying that no foreign national is afforded the same constitutional rights, regardless of why they're here. Terrorist/military issues are another matter (with which I'm not as familiar).

Budopro, not in a wartime situation conspiring to do "acts of war" against citizens of this country. Sure you're not going to lock up for life some foreign fella for shoplifting at the local K-Mart, but there is a HUGE difference when there is even a suspicion of possible terrorist linkage.

And I'd really love to see one case, just one case, of a terrorist, freedom fighter, whatever they are called these days, recognizing the Geneva Convention when it comes to our folks.

And yes, we should not stoop to their level of horrid tactics, however we shall all certainly lose much more than our principles if we coddle these folks.

Christy unfortunately stooping to their level (or even worse) is the only things these pieces of #### seem to understand. If being brutal on our part saves hundreds, even thousands of lives I say it is worth it.

They are just lucky Im not the President. I would have nuked half of the middle east by now.

Heretic, you are absolutely right. What many people fail to understand is that these Muslim Fundamentalists aren't about simply wanting to be left alone by the "Great Satan" to live how they want to live. They want to wipe us off the face of the Earth. I just wonder how many of our people (to include Muslims, I'm talkin Americans here) are going to wind up being slaughtered by these folks before the touchy feely types wake up and smell the coffee.

Originally posted by Christy
...before the touchy feely types wake up and smell the coffee.

They never do until it's them in the crosshairs!

Crazy thing is, they are in the crosshairs, and in a big way. Liberals are blinded by ideals that simply don't work except for in the land of Perfect, where there's no need for a Wahlgreens. (Sorry, bad commercial, but a not so bad analogy).

Heres an article that addresses another part of the war on terror that I have seen little debate on.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020625-32616379.htm

Many people I have talked to about the restrictions on civil liberties during the current "war" on terror constantly reply that any liberties that are surrendered now will surely be given back when the "war" is over, such as the Japanese americans being released after WWII. But, as mentioned in the above article, the war on terror will most likely follow the path of the "war" on drugs, and never be over. There will always be one more group that doesn't like the US, even if we ever manage to rid ourselves of the current one.

Great Avatar JetMonkey!

:lmao:

A lot better than some of yesterdays! :lol:

Originally posted by jetmonkey
I'm a grumpy old man before my time and I hate everything!

But I thought that was Ken King... :confused: :lol:

Warron there is a HUGE difference between not liking the U.S. and wanting to exterminate everyone in U.S. or who supports the U.S. I mean come on, these aren't a bunch of radical hippies bent over big government. These folks are born and raised to kill Americans.

Realistically, the war on "terror" won't be over for generations. But you most certainly can save the lives of many Americans by making the cost of killing Americans higher than being locked up at GITMO indefinitely. I mean, ooh, ouch, lock Mohammed up with three hots and a cot, that wouldn't really make me quiver in my boots if I were a terrorist.

Originally posted by Christy
Warron there is a HUGE difference between not liking the U.S. and wanting to exterminate everyone in U.S. or who supports the U.S

Your reply is sort of curious. The above statement seems to be criticizing my post. Although I didn’t think it was that difficult to determine that I was referring to other terrorist groups that hate the US nearly as much if not just as much as the Al Qaeda. Maybe you’re not aware of this, but Al Qaeda is not the only terrorist group in the world. Anyway, in the future I will try to spell out my posts such that they are much easier to understand.

Originally posted by Christy
Realistically, the war on "terror" won't be over for generations.

What I found curious was that your second paragraph, unlike the criticism of your first, actually reiterates part of the point I was trying to make in the first place. That the war on terror might go on for a long, long time. It’s nice to know that someone agrees, because I continually hear statements about how we will get all are rights back when the war is over.

I’m still trying to determine what the rest of your post had to do with anything I said, but I will keep working on it.

Warron, I wasn't criticizing your post, I simply disagree with your views on this particular situation. I'm very aware of the many other terrorist groups out there, could name them all to you and then throw in a handful more that you've probably never heard of, as it was my job to know their business. I know they want to kill us, and I'd like it much better if we killed them before they bring about another mass slaughter in this country.

My second paragraph had nothing to do with "getting our rights back" after it's all over. It's about reality. Not ideals. It's about realistically protecting the citizens of this country, and how nothing we are doing now strikes one single bit of fear into these people.

We've become such a whiny little bunch of feel gooders in this country, that are oblivious to any form of sacrifice on our parts to save our way of life. We've lost our nads when it comes to "we will hunt you down, we will find you, and we will eliminate you." It's now "we're just gonna take volunteers to come in and let us know you plan on killing some of us, even if it's not a big attack, we'd sure by golly appreciate it if you'd come forward and just give us a heads up, after all, we wouldn't want the ACLU to make us look bad, as we're not bad, really we aren't, we still hold you and Allah in highest regards, and just to prove it to you, we're gonna jack up everyone at the airport that isn't of Arab descent, is that okay?" Sorry, but it's all just ridiculous.