Should hunters switch to 'green' bullets? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/03/04/green.bullets/index.html)

" (CNN) -- Three years ago, Phillip Loughlin made a choice he knew would brand him as an outsider with many of his fellow hunters:
Last year, California banned lead bullets in areas where the endangered California condor lives.

Non-lead bullets are gaining visibility, but hunting and gun groups oppose banning lead from ammo.

He decided to shoot "green" bullets.

"It made sense," Loughlin said of his switch to more environmentally friendly ammo, which doesn't contain lead. "I believe that we need to do a little bit to take care of the rest of the habitat and the environment -- not just what we want to shoot out of it."

Lead, a toxic metal that can lower the IQs of children, is the essential element in most ammunition on the market today.

But greener alternatives are gaining visibility -- and stirring controversy -- as some hunters, scientists, environmentalists and public health officials worry about lead ammunition's threat to the environment and public health.

Hunting groups oppose limits on lead ammunition, saying there's no risk and alternatives are too expensive.

The scope of the trend is difficult to measure. Americans spent an estimated $1.08 billion on ammunition in fiscal year 2008, according to tax reports from the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau. But the bureau does not track ammunition sales by type.

"It made sense," Loughlin said of his switch to more environmentally friendly ammo, which doesn't contain lead. "I believe that we need to do a little bit to take care of the rest of the habitat and the environment -- not just what we want to shoot out of it."

Lead, a toxic metal that can lower the IQs of children, is the essential element in most ammunition on the market today.



I would support a bill that bans shooting children with lead bullets.

Lead, a toxic metal that can lower the IQs of children, is the essential element in most ammunition on the market today.


Any parent that lets their kid chew on bullets instead of a teething ring is a moron. They should pass a law or something to stop that.















:killingme

If they pass this, you won't be able to say "that cat died of lead poisoning." :ohwell:

"I believe that we need to do a little bit to take care of the rest of the habitat and the environment -- not just what we want to shoot out of it."

:lmao:

Like, omigod! :dance:






:lmao:

Loughlin, who switched to green ammo and blogs on the issue, said that lead shouldn't be banned from hunting but that hunters and the public should be more aware of lead's potential to cause harm.

:yeahthat:

Should hunters switch to 'green' bullets? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/03/04/green.bullets/index.html)

" (CNN) -- Three years ago, Phillip Loughlin made a choice he knew would brand him as an outsider with many of his fellow hunters:
Last year, California banned lead bullets in areas where the endangered California condor lives.

Non-lead bullets are gaining visibility, but hunting and gun groups oppose banning lead from ammo.

He decided to shoot "green" bullets.

"It made sense," Loughlin said of his switch to more environmentally friendly ammo, which doesn't contain lead. "I believe that we need to do a little bit to take care of the rest of the habitat and the environment -- not just what we want to shoot out of it."

Lead, a toxic metal that can lower the IQs of children, is the essential element in most ammunition on the market today.

But greener alternatives are gaining visibility -- and stirring controversy -- as some hunters, scientists, environmentalists and public health officials worry about lead ammunition's threat to the environment and public health.

Hunting groups oppose limits on lead ammunition, saying there's no risk and alternatives are too expensive.

The scope of the trend is difficult to measure. Americans spent an estimated $1.08 billion on ammunition in fiscal year 2008, according to tax reports from the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau. But the bureau does not track ammunition sales by type.
Just when you think it can't get more stupid, we get this. :lol:

Just when you think it can't get more stupid, we get this. :lol:
Minnesota (I think it was) did a study about lead in harvested game. They showed that the lead contamination from bullets breaking up while traveling thru the body of the game animal was spread well beyond the immediate wound area. They changed the rules on the Hunters Feeding the Hungry (or whatever they call it there) program to where they only accepted archery harvested animals.

So long as the "green" projectile performs equal to the lead, I can support it.

So long as the "green" projectile performs equal to the lead, I can support it.

They won't.

lead's density allows it to transfer large amounts of energy to the target.

They won't.

lead's density allows it to transfer large amounts of energy to the target.
depleted uranium?

Minnesota (I think it was) did a study about lead in harvested game. They showed that the lead contamination from bullets breaking up while traveling thru the body of the game animal was spread well beyond the immediate wound area. They changed the rules on the Hunters Feeding the Hungry (or whatever they call it there) program to where they only accepted archery harvested animals.

So long as the "green" projectile performs equal to the lead, I can support it.Put alot of lead in pheasant, rabbit, squirrel and deer, and ate it. I'm still alive. :shrug:

depleted uranium?

Well, it's certainly denser than lead - but you would have the same kinds of concerns that you do with lead.

It does yield lower radioactivity exposure levels than concentrated naturally occurring Uranium does (it contains a lower percentage of U-235, that's why it's called depleted), but risks still exist. The risk from external exposure is relatively small, but there are real risks from internal exposure. (The gamma radiation it yields has relatively low energy levels, but it does yield alpha particles which can affect living tissue, although they act in very short distances and thus need to be internal to do much damage.)

If it gets into the environment, and is then ingested or inhaled, it can have adverse health effects. So, if you were to eat meat that you had killed with depleted uranium ammunition, it may be harmful. Also, some of it can aerosolize on contact with hard targets, and then be inhaled.

Are the risks huge? Probably not, but they probably aren't less than the risks from lead. You also have cost considerations and possible regulatory considerations - although I'm not sure what class of material it is considered, so I'm not sure who regulates it and to what degree. Furthermore, I suspect you would see the same resistance to DU being used in consumer ammunition, as you see with other ammunition that is effective at penetrating body armor - right or wrong.

Lead, a toxic metal that can lower the IQs of children, is the essential element in most ammunition on the market today.



Your mom and dad owned a lead farm didn't they?

Other than that, this is STUPID..

I can somewhat understand skeet ranges.. where, over time, a lot of lead accumulates.

But I don't remember the last time I found a bullet while wandering in the woods..

Someone should do the math.. If I fire a bullet into the woods in Dameron, what's the current lead to background metals ratio?

Friggin Morons will fall for and believe anything as long as you put 'for the children' in there somewhere..

They may never make guns illegal, but they will regulate them to the point you can't or won't want to own any..

I would support a bill that bans shooting children with lead bullets.

Well...I came just to comment that the topic was funny but this just stole all of its thunder. :killingme :killingme :killingme

Friggin Morons will fall for and believe anything as long as you put 'for the children' in there somewhere..

You cold hearted bastard! This has NOTHING to do with children! Do you have ANY idea just how many condors are suffering from lead infused carrion?

Have you no respect for vultures, sir?


:lol:

You cold hearted bastard! This has NOTHING to do with children! Do you have ANY idea just how many condors are suffering from lead infused carrion?

Have you no respect for vultures, sir?


:lol:

Maybe we are approaching this wrong.. we should stop fighting the Morons.. and just take all of their money.


We should develop bullets made out of compressed salt and pepper, maybe a lttle garlic.. sell them for say $10 - 15 a ROUND.. and tell them it's for the children..

They'll buy it, and feel good bout being stupid!!

Taking it a step further.. knives made out of stale cheese..

Rifle cleaning equipment with butter based oils..

man, we could be RICH.. and we can go out and shoot our guns with lead bullets all we want!

We should develop bullets made out of compressed salt and pepper, maybe a lttle garlic.. sell them for say $10 - 15 a ROUND.. and tell them it's for the children..

Why do you hate vampires?

Why do you hate vampires?

Vampires suck..

Vampires suck..

:groan: I wasn't ready for that so early in the day. :lol:

Put alot of lead in pheasant, rabbit, squirrel and deer, and ate it. I'm still alive. :shrug:
I was just stating what I read in a news article back in the fall. Personally, I have no problem with lead projectiles so long as the are not impacting my body violently. Next they will ban lead pellets (as in for pellet guns) and lead sinkers for fishing.

I was just stating what I read in a news article back in the fall. Personally, I have no problem with lead projectiles so long as the are not impacting my body violently. Next they will ban lead pellets (as in for pellet guns) and lead sinkers for fishing.


They are already working on this one..

It's further along than the bullets..

They are already working on this one..

It's further along than the bullets..

And with the weight one, I'm still sort of wavering. I don't understand what the big deal would be if something else was used for weight, or why lead is even used (density, I'm sure?), but if something that worked as well was used then I'm not really opposed to switching, at all.

Why do you hate vampires?


A vampire killed my father.

I'm not sure why everybody can't understand that lead is poisonous.

That's why lead based paint is now illegal.

That's why lead shot for waterfowl hunting is illegal. This will happen sooner than later for upland game hunting too.

I have been using barnes xpaners (100% copper)on deer for years. They are devastating and I think the performance surpasses ANY lead bullet.

Just realize there are alternatives and sometimes they are better.

I'm not sure why everybody can't understand that lead is poisonous.

That's why lead based paint is now illegal.

That's why lead shot for waterfowl hunting is illegal. This will happen sooner than later for upland game hunting too.

I have been using barnes xpaners (100% copper)on deer for years. They are devastating and I think the performance surpasses ANY lead bullet.

Just realize there are alternatives and sometimes they are better.

A decent, solid, informative, non inflammatory post. :buddies:

I'm not sure why everybody can't understand that lead is poisonous.

That's why lead based paint is now illegal.

That's why lead shot for waterfowl hunting is illegal. This will happen sooner than later for upland game hunting too.

I have been using barnes xpaners (100% copper)on deer for years. They are devastating and I think the performance surpasses ANY lead bullet.

Just realize there are alternatives and sometimes they are better.

I shoot Barnes for all my big game bullets or custom solid copper turned bullets. But I do by choice. They run me from 85 cents each up to 2.50 each just for the bullet.

I will not use solids on small game.

We should develop bullets made out of compressed salt and pepper, maybe a lttle garlic.. sell them for say $10 - 15 a ROUND.. and tell them it's for the children..
Season Shot is made of tightly packed seasoning bound by a fully biodegradable food product. The seasoning is actually injected into the bird on impact seasoning the meat from the inside out. When the bird is cooked the seasoning pellets melt into the meat spreading the flavor to the entire bird. Forget worrying about shot breaking your teeth and start wondering about which flavor shot to use!
Season Shot - Ammo with flavor. (http://www.seasonshot.com/How.cfm)

I shoot Barnes for all my big game bullets or custom solid copper turned bullets. But I do by choice. They run me from 85 cents each up to 2.50 each just for the bullet. .

And herein lies the issue: affordability.
If "green" ammo was more affordable (than it is now, lead price range), and lets assume it works just as well, then there is no real reason to use lead anymore. Everyone can't afford an extra $1.50+ per round, though.

I'm not sure why everybody can't understand that lead is poisonous.

That's why lead based paint is now illegal.

That's why lead shot for waterfowl hunting is illegal. This will happen sooner than later for upland game hunting too.

I have been using barnes xpaners (100% copper)on deer for years. They are devastating and I think the performance surpasses ANY lead bullet.

Just realize there are alternatives and sometimes they are better.

But the steel shot is nowhere as efective as lead, and Bismouth is way too much money when you go out and shoot over a box a day 2 to 3 times a week for the entire season.

But the steel shot is nowhere as efective as lead, and Bismouth is way too much money when you go out and shoot over a box a day 2 to 3 times a week for the entire season.

You might want to spen some time at the gun range and improve your aim.

You might want to spen some time at the gun range and improve your aim.

Kill a limmit of ducks and geese that is 11 birds where I hunt west of 301.

Way too times have I seen Steel double BBs bounce off big geese.

Since the law change you see alot more crippled birds than you did before.

I'm not sure why everybody can't understand that lead is poisonous.

That's why lead based paint is now illegal.

That's why lead shot for waterfowl hunting is illegal. This will happen sooner than later for upland game hunting too.

I have been using barnes xpaners (100% copper)on deer for years. They are devastating and I think the performance surpasses ANY lead bullet.

Just realize there are alternatives and sometimes they are better.

Show me the math.. don't come in here spouting opinions.. give me PROOF that copper is a better alternative then lead.. and then conitnue to show me PROOF that one bullet made of lead is worse for the environment than one bullet made of copper.. and give me hard numbers to show me how MUCH worse it is.

Kids could come in contact (not the problem) and eat the paint chips (the problem)... My kids don't wander around the woods searching for lead bullets to eat (not a problem)... AND even it they did, the bullet would pass through their system faster than any harmful levels of lead could be absorbed (again, not a problem)..

So show me some facts, where it truly is beneficial to give up lead bullets.

Season Shot - Ammo with flavor. (http://www.seasonshot.com/How.cfm)

I saw that about a year ago..

That's for birds/ shotguns.. not a .30 bullet..

A decent, solid, informative, non inflammatory post. :buddies:

That offered no facts, other than "lead is bad, ban lead!!"

Kill a limmit of ducks and geese that is 11 birds where I hunt west of 301.

Way too times have I seen Steel double BBs bounce off big geese.

Since the law change you see alot more crippled birds than you did before.

Step up to the 3 1/2" mags big boy. :killingme

Seriously, steel shot sucks... I sold my 3 1/2" chambered shotgun because I hardly ever chambered a shell of that size, plus I hardly ever waterfowl hunt - I sold it (Benelli Nova Pump) and bought a Beretta semi instead.

Show me the math.. don't come in here spouting opinions.. give me PROOF that copper is a better alternative then lead.. and then conitnue to show me PROOF that one bullet made of lead is worse for the environment than one bullet made of copper.. and give me hard numbers to show me how MUCH worse it is.

Kids could come in contact (not the problem) and eat the paint chips (the problem)... My kids don't wander around the woods searching for lead bullets to eat (not a problem)... AND even it they did, the bullet would pass through their system faster than any harmful levels of lead could be absorbed (again, not a problem)..

So show me some facts, where it truly is beneficial to give up lead bullets.

I'm not sure I gave a lot of opinions. What I said was the federal government has banned certain products. If the federal government says its against the law, that's just something you're going to have to deal with.

If the proof you are looking for is some type of study or doctors findings, I am no doctor. If you want me to go online and find other studies and the like that can be done. I also made no mention of children. I'm not sure how children were brought into this discussion, but they have NO bearing on it.

I said that I have good experience with copper ammunition. They are expensive, however so is everything, cars, food, housing. This may just be the price you have to pay to play the game.

Maybe we are approaching this wrong.. we should stop fighting the Morons.. and just take all of their money.


We should develop bullets made out of compressed salt and pepper, maybe a lttle garlic.. sell them for say $10 - 15 a ROUND.. and tell them it's for the children..

They'll buy it, and feel good bout being stupid!!

Taking it a step further.. knives made out of stale cheese..

Rifle cleaning equipment with butter based oils..

man, we could be RICH.. and we can go out and shoot our guns with lead bullets all we want!

You're one of a kind Bob.:lmao:

Step up to the 3 1/2" mags big boy. (Benelli Nova Pump) .

That is the gun I shoot.

The math is generally unimportant.
The fact of the matter is that lead is going to be illegal due to health and environmental reasons... Those are political doorchimes for "bad ####". doesn't even matter if its true, it just takes one talking head to raise a point like that and it will become law on the possibility that one of your kids hypothetically walks through the woods, picks, and eats a bullet for lunch...

After traveling all around the country shooting things I can tell you that as of right now you need to double check regulations everywhere you go. Not just state to state either... Lead is legal for quail and pheasant here, but there are 4 parks where it is not allowed. Some states have restrictions on the make/ brand of shot allowed in the state as well.

Steel sinkers are already stocking the shelves and in some public ponds are the only sinkers legally used.

I've read that the solid copper bullets are better at mass retention... cant find any numbers though...

I'm not sure I gave a lot of opinions. What I said was the federal government has banned certain products. If the federal government says its against the law, that's just something you're going to have to deal with.

This may just be the price you have to pay to play the game.

SO instead of DOING something about it, just let the people in Washington dictate EVERYTHING about what we do, or what we can't do...

It's just the way it's going to be, live with it.



That's a hell of an attitude, and an attitude that very well can, and will be taken advantage of.

:sheep:

SO instead of DOING something about it, just let the people in Washington dictate EVERYTHING about what we do, or what we can't do...

It's just the way it's going to be, live with it.



That's a hell of an attitude, and an attitude that very well can, and will be taken advantage of.

:sheep:

Look, I know this is a touchy subject for you. I will try to respond without stepping on your toes. I would appreciate it if you stopped flaming my posts.

The majority of the voting public elects our leaders. They make laws that we have to deal with. Whether you or I like it or not, we must accept it or break the law.

I try my best to be a law abiding citizen. I can also say that I am a member of several firearm and hunting rights organizations, along with several more fishing and outdoor organizations. I also vote in every election.

If you expect to have these rights in the future, you should take it upon yourself to accept all forms of hunting instead of creating a rift between parties that are on your side. It will be easier for the anti groups to separate the outdoor going people.

I enjoy going afield, so if lead becomes outlawed and non lead alternatives are the only thing available, I will use them instead of staying home.

Lead or not I am not greatly concerned about what I am shooting-as long as it provides humane kills and shoots straight. Isn't that what all this is about? Who really cares what the ammunition is composed of?

If steel shot cripples more birds, shouldn't we all take it upon ourselves to limit our range or improve our shots? Isn't that what being a responsible outdoorsman is all about?