Free will. We have it.

Some suggest if God knows all, then we can't have free will. This is a strawman argument in that it presupposes limits on God similar to limits on manking. The entity that created time itself would be limited by time? That doesn't make sense. The entity that defined the universe is held to just the understandings of the universe. The human understandings of the universe.

Yes, I know that's a stupid argument, but that's the one made. This thread is for Wx, so he can go off on some tangent that is meaningless to the discussion, and declare that God can't exist because He can't create a rock that is so heavy even He can't lift it, therefore He's not really all-powerful.

Go ahead, Wx, it's all yours.....

Before you were born, your God saw you eat only a hamburger for dinner tonight. Can you eat anything else except a hamburger for dinner tonight? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Before you were born, your God saw you eat only a hamburger for dinner tonight. Can you eat anything else except a hamburger for dinner tonight? A simple yes or no will suffice.A simple no.


Now, that has nothing to do with free will. That was merely seeing the free will before it happened on my timeline.

You're holding God to the same time restrictions that you and I have. That's not appropriate. You're imposing limitations on a limitless entity. This is where your logic falls down.




Still.




Again.




:buddies:

God knows that you are going to eat a hamburger before you do...that means that if you had decided to eat fishsticks he would have seen that too...therefore your choice is not limited..simply because he knows what you will choose does not denote influence of any kind. If God had decided himself that you would eat a hamburger, then that argument would stand. But he is all-seeing and all-knowing....not all-choosing.

A simple no.

There goes your free will...........

There goes your free will...........
Not at all, as explained numerous times to you.

My will was not limited just because someone knew.

It's completely illogical on your part to suggest so.

As per usual, you folks muddy it up so much, and it's really quite simple. Okay, watch how easy this is to understand - try to stay with me - this is YOUR worldview:

1. An all knowing, infinite God knows everything I've done or will do infinitely before I was even born to do it.

2. I have no power to counteract what God has already foreseen me do, so I am already committed to a course of action I have no way of knowing.

Theists, do you agree or not?

As per usual, you folks muddy it up so much, and it's really quite simple. Okay, watch how easy this is to understand - try to stay with me - this is YOUR worldview:

1. An all knowing, infinite God knows everything I've done or will do infinitely before I was even born to do it.

2. I have no power to counteract what God has already foreseen me do, so I am already committed to a course of action I have no way of knowing.

Theists, do you agree or not?I disagree.

You have every ability to choose your course of action. Just because you can't counteract what you've already chosen to do after it's done doesn't mean you didn't have the choice in the first place.

You're putting a limit on God of linear time. This continues to be one of the areas you don't accept on this - that a linear timeframe limit on God is inappropriate.

You skipped over this in the past and didnt address the Free Will

The Bible already tells you that you do not have free will (i'll bold the pertinent sections make it easier for you to follow):10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hatedKnowing what would happen in our timeline does not diminish their ability to choose in their timeline. That I knew you would post in this thread did not diminish your ability to choose whether or not to post in this thread.14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[d] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Huh, God has free will too (that's what this says).

Or, are you suggesting that by not being able to have God's mercy, we are somehow unable to exercise free will? See, whether or not to give mercy is God's choice, not ours.19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[e] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:10-19 Yup, God still has free will4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— Ephesians 1:4-5
9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 2 Timothy 1:9

Quote:
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Quote:
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world Revelations 13:8

Quote:
13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked? Ecclesiastes 7:13 God predetermined your fate, you cant change it with works
Yup, God still has the will to choose who He'll accept and who He won't.

You do see a trend here, right? You're suggesting that whether God chooses to offer his mercy is somehow indicative of your free will. That's like suggesting whether the bus driver turns left or right determines your will to eat a sandwich for lunch.It is not by choices that you have led. It is God's will that has caused this, no matter what 'choices' the person made, or is to make, during their lives. Free will doesn't enter the equation.What is not by the choices you have made? What does God's will cause, per these verses?

Nothing you have any free will over, any more than where you were born, or whether you were born.

Maybe you're right, if I couldn't choose whether to be born or not, and couldn't choose my gender at birth, and couldn't choose what state I was born in, or to which parents.... well, golly, I clearly don't have free will.....:rolleyes:



:doh:

I disagree.

You have every ability to choose your course of action. Just because you can't counteract what you've already chosen to do after it's done doesn't mean you didn't have the choice in the first place.

You're putting a limit on God of linear time. This continues to be one of the areas you don't accept on this - that a linear timeframe limit on God is inappropriate.

IMO, if there is a God and he did not give us free will, we wouldn't sin. At least, we wouldn't commit major sins or any of that crap, because He simply wouldn't let us. Again, that's assuming He micromanages.

I'm more of the opinion that God may make some decisions for certain situations or things, but overall He is not a micromanager, instead allowing free will. That's why when I see people questioning God's existence because they fall on hard times, or praying to God because they expect He'll answer their call, I think they're foolish. You're one of many, many people and you're not special. Deal with it.

Also, I don't like the whole lack of linearity. I think that He could very well exist in a linear timeframe and does what He wants, when He wants. :shrug: Just because it's not exactly like some book says doesn't mean it can't be close enough to still be truth. But you need to draw your own lines for what you're willing to bend with and what you're not.

IMO, if there is a God and he did not give us free will, we wouldn't sin. At least, we wouldn't commit major sins or any of that crap, because He simply wouldn't let us. Again, that's assuming He micromanages.Other than making assumptions of God's intent, I would agree with thisI'm more of the opinion that God may make some decisions for certain situations or things, but overall He is not a micromanager, instead allowing free will. That's why when I see people questioning God's existence because they fall on hard times, or praying to God because they expect He'll answer their call, I think they're foolish. You're one of many, many people and you're not special. Deal with it.I agree with this overall. Basically, the "decisions" I believe God takes in these situations may be whether or not to tempt. Or, to send the lifeboat (if you remember the joke of the lifeboats and helicopter to the guy who drowns in a flood). But, does NOT make the choices for you.Also, I don't like the whole lack of linearity. I think that He could very well exist in a linear timeframe and does what He wants, when He wants. :shrug: Just because it's not exactly like some book says doesn't mean it can't be close enough to still be truth. But you need to draw your own lines for what you're willing to bend with and what you're not.He could exist linearly. But, to assume he does automatically doesn't make any sense. He created time itself - I just can't imagine He's held to work within it.

There goes your free will...........

exactly, if there is an omnipotent god, then free will is only an illusion.

if there is aready a "playbook" with every move every person will ever make, then there is no way to choose something other than what was already decided. it doesn't matter if god based his knowing on infinate possibile outcomes, an all knowing god already knows which one will be choosen. meaning there is only one way things can work out ===> no free will.

exactly, if there is an omnipotent god, then free will is only an illusion.

if there is aready a "playbook" with every move every person will ever make, then there is no way to choose something other than what was already decided. it doesn't matter if god based his knowing on infinate possibile outcomes, an all knowing god already knows which one will be choosen. meaning there is only one way things can work out ===> no free will.
Only a very simplistic mind, unable to see more than just black and white, one that cannot understand that God is not a person and therefore not held to the functions of the human mind would believe what you wrote here.


Here (http://forums.somd.com/3904846-post342.html) is an answer to your issues. I doubt you'll be able to follow even a simplistic set of two possible answers that defies your thought process, but it's posted for you anyway.

So now you equate yourself to God?Nope, not at all. Just explaining that knowing what's going to happen doesn't forbid the potential for free will.

Either your having your typical reading comprehension issue or this is another one of your Circular Arguments.

Try to follow this through, the question you posed wasnt about whether or not God has free will, kind idiotic isnt it, since he's Omnipotent, it was whether Humans do.
Right. And the answers you gave were about what God chose to do, or not to do. This has nothing to do with Man's free will.

The entire verse about the twins (Romans 9:10-19), not just the sections you selectively edited show they didnt have free will since God already decided their purposeI didn't edit at all. I copied your post.It doesnt matter what you do, God determines your outcome. You realize this is like suggesting I don't have free will because of gravity, and therefore I can't choose to float, right? :lol:

Going to heaven is not a choice I make. Therefore, not being given the ability to choose to go to heaven is not a function of MY free will, it's a function of God's free will.

I couldn't choose where I was born, or to which parents, or what gender, etc., etc. Those things stop my ability to practice free will as much as choosing whether I go to heaven, or choosing what you'll have for lunch effect my free will. I suggest nothing, your Bible and Your God tell you that God has determined, long before you or your ancestors existed, whether or not you are in his grace. Which means nothing towards my free willDoesnt matter what you do in life, God chose before the beginning of time who would be in his grace. Opposite of free will.You're saying that God making a choice about your soul's fate (heaven or hell) stops you from having free will.

The free will to do what? To go to heaven or hell?

Do you see the error in this assessment?

We dont need to read This_Persons made up version of events (like your alternate Eden hypothesis). All that is needed is to read the Bible, it tells you in very clear terms that you do not have free will.

But we understand you need to create an alternative reality in order to feel like your choices are your own. But then you should question your belief, if you have free will you cant believe in God (or the Bible is wrong)Don't have free will to make God's choices for him.

That's the free will you suggest we lack.

Not really sure why you persist in ignoring God telling you it doesnt matter what you do, he has already decided your fate.
Because the question is whether or not I have the free will to make the choice of what I decided to do or not, not whether my choices will effect God's response.

You also dont have the free will to make your own fate.

God already made that decision.your own fate in what sense.

Go back to the context, and see what fate it's talking about. Salvation, heaven: GOD'S choices, not yours.

your own fate in what sense.

Go back to the context, and see what fate it's talking about. Salvation, heaven: GOD'S choices, not yours.

So I could be a perfect Christian, according to my free will. But god decides? Thats a ##### ain't it. What an evil entity.

So I could be a perfect Christian, according to my free will. But god decides? Thats a ##### ain't it. What an evil entity.You're free (you have the free will) to view God however you choose.

If you see evil based on a single passage out of context to come to that conclusion, you have that free will.

However, there is a great (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%2012:14;%20with%202%20Corinthians%205:10) deal (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204:7;%20Job%2034:11;%20Proverbs%2011:31;12:14;24:11,12;%20Psalms) more (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2016:33;%20Job%2014:17;21:30;31:13-15;%20Psalms%209:7;) regarding how God will judge you.

Yeah uh.. you do realize your not making your argument very well?I'm not trying to convert people, I'm answering your specific passages in a specific way towards the concept of free will.

I think it all boils down to this:


If God sees me do something, that doesn't make it any less MY choice - my free will - to do it. The fact that it was seen beforehand doesn't make it any less my choice.

Some people will accept this argument.

Others will not.


What I do not accept is the false dichotomy that EITHER God foresaw me doing something OR I have free will, and these two conditions are mutually exclusive. If you buy into that, congratulations and good on ya. I don't.





I also don't know the mind of God, nor do I know the exact nature of time and space. Maybe God saw me eat a hamburger for dinner AND He saw me eat sushi AND He saw me eat Potatos N Cabbage for dinner, and He also saw all the possible timelines that are spawned from those choices?.... Who knows? Who cares?

I think it all boils down to this:


If God sees me do something, that doesn't make it any less MY choice - my free will - to do it. The fact that it was seen beforehand doesn't make it any less my choice.

Some people will accept this argument.

Others will not.


What I do not accept is the false dichotomy that EITHER God foresaw me doing something OR I have free will, and these two conditions are mutually exclusive. If you buy into that, congratulations and good on ya. I don't.





I also don't know the mind of God, nor do I know the exact nature of time and space. Maybe God saw me eat a hamburger for dinner AND He saw me eat sushi AND He saw me eat Potatos N Cabbage for dinner, and He also saw all the possible timelines that are spawned from those choices?.... Who knows? Who cares?

so its like one of those "you create the adventure" books they used to make?
if you want to have sushi for dinner, turn to page 31
if you want to have steak turn to page 87.......

even then, if god is omnipotent and all knowing, he already knows which choice you are going to make so he knows which page you are going to be turning to, and we are right back to the point: are there even other pages to turn to if god already knows what choice we have made?

My specific passages state it doesnt matter what you do, God has already decided your fate. You attempt to create some alternate reality about what this means:

But it seems pretty clear.What specific thing do you believe this stops you from choosing on your own? What decision are you unable to make on your own?

The discussion point comes from the Infallibility of God, Same as destroying the unbreakable meteor.

You cant logically claim free will, while stating God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

The two are polar opposites in the Free Will discussion.

If God saw you eat pizza and you ate a Ham&Cheese sandwich then God was Wrong. If God is never wrong, you could never eat the Ham&Cheese.

Is that stating God determined you were going to eat Pizza? No, but you do not have the ability to show God being Wrong. If you had Free Will you could.If you watched a tape of someone eating a pizza, does it change the fact they were able to choose the pizza? Would it have stopped them from choosing a ham and cheese sandwich before hand - because the tape shows they chose something different?

Uh the fact the Bible states CLEARLY that it doesnt matter what you do, God has already determined your Fate before the beginning of time.

But hey maybe the Bible is wrong.What fate? Whether you'll choose ham and cheese over pizza, or whether God will choose to accept you into heaven?

Yeah uh.. not sure how to point this out to you, but i'm not God, nor am i Infallible.

But if you want to pray to me feel free.So, if God is not tethered by the Time He created, and therefore is able to see all the choices you've made (all by yourself), then how is that stopping you from choosing? :confused:

Not really sure where your confusion comes from. I already stated it has nothign to do with choice it has to do with Gods infallibility.How does God already knowing what you decided - not controlling what you decided on your own, but knowing what you decided on your own - effect His infallibility?

See, you're assuming that because God knows, you had no ability to make another choice. That's where YOU fail. God knowing - without effecting your choice - does not effect your ability to choose, nor His infalibility.[quoteI really dont understand your confusion since you quoted my statement here (http://forums.somd.com/religion/186549-make-wxtornado-happy-post3907668.html#post3907668)[/QUOTE]So, your point is that God would have to not know what your choice is to be infalible? Or, that if God knows what you chose, that effected your choice? This is where I'm not following you. See, God can know what your choice is, even before you made it, without your free will to make whichever choice you want being effected.

For your version of it, He would have to be bound by time in a linear fashion. Why would he be bound by time in a linear fashion?

exactly, if there is an omnipotent god, then free will is only an illusion.

if there is aready a "playbook" with every move every person will ever make, then there is no way to choose something other than what was already decided. it doesn't matter if god based his knowing on infinate possibile outcomes, an all knowing god already knows which one will be choosen. meaning there is only one way things can work out ===> no free will.

Pretty simple to understand, for the intellectually honest anyway.

Here's a scriptural example: Both Pharoah of the OT and Judas of the NT are extreme examples of people who could not ovveride their destinies in life. Pharoah is actively made hard-hearted by God as a pre-planned course of action which God tells Moses he's going to do, and Judas has to betray Jesus for Jesus to be crucified.

Neither of these men had a choice, they had to do what they did in order for God's previously hatched plan to come to fruition. And that spills down to every level, since according to the theist we are "all part of God's plan". Hence even these words I'm typing were foeseen and known and I was "created" to do this very thing. I have no choice in the matter. Even if I stop, that was foreseen, and known and realized and all part of it.

Even if I stop, that was foreseen, and known and realized and all part of it.NOW you're starting to get it.

You have the choice, it was merely foreseen.

Keep thinking it through, and you'll get it completely.

NOW you're starting to get it.

You have the choice, it was merely foreseen.

Keep thinking it through, and you'll get it completely.

Oh I got it already actually - again, quite simple for the intellectually honest.

Want freedom from confusion?

Try atheism. It's pretty straightforward. You find that reality is simply reality. You don't get into weird moebius-strip thinking gobbledy-gook nonsense like:

"We can only understand the incomprehensible mind of God by understanding that we can never understand the incomprehensible mind of God."

"A loving and infinitely all-merciful God allows you to make a choice that sends you to eternal torment in Hell."

"God knows every choice you will ever make infinitely before you make it. However, you have free will even though your choice is already made infintiely before you were even born."

"God is the answer to all things. What is that answer? That everything is from God. You can never understand God, so you are forever precluded from truly understanding anything, because everything has come from something you can never hope to understand."

Frankly, when I walked away from all that blithering and blathering, life became simple, easy, and understandable.

weird moebius-strip thinking gobbledy-gook

blithering and blathering

Woah, don't get too technical with them. :killingme

Oh I got it already actually - again, quite simple for the intellectually honest.

Want freedom from confusion?

Try atheism. It's pretty straightforward. You find that reality is simply reality.If it works for you, good for you. However, you clearly don't understand....You don't get into weird moebius-strip thinking gobbledy-gook nonsense like:

"We can only understand the incomprehensible mind of God by understanding that we can never understand the incomprehensible mind of God." We don't "understand the incomprehensible mind of God". We understand that we don't understand.

"A loving and infinitely all-merciful God allows you to make a choice that sends you to eternal torment in Hell." God's not all-merciful. Clearly you don't get that. He gives you the path to His mercy, not his unconditional mercy.

"God knows every choice you will ever make infinitely before you make it. However, you have free will even though your choice is already made infintiely before you were even born." Again, knowing what choice you make does not preclude your free will to make it. It's only a problem if you constrain God to YOUR timeline, and YOUR abilities.

"God is the answer to all things. What is that answer? That everything is from God. You can never understand God, so you are forever precluded from truly understanding anything, because everything has come from something you can never hope to understand." You will understand if/when you go to heaven. Not before.

Frankly, when I walked away from all that blithering and blathering, life became simple, easy, and understandable.If higher cognitive thinking is an issue for you, you are certainly better off an atheist. :buddies:

I agree with this overall. Basically, the "decisions" I believe God takes in these situations may be whether or not to tempt. Or, to send the lifeboat (if you remember the joke of the lifeboats and helicopter to the guy who drowns in a flood). But, does NOT make the choices for you.

He could exist linearly. But, to assume he does automatically doesn't make any sense. He created time itself - I just can't imagine He's held to work within it.

Why is God trying to tempt if he already knows what people would do in a given situation? If God knows everything, why bother with this life? Why not send everyone to heaven or hell and be done with it? What's the purpose if not to live and be unpredictable? Why get mad at people who are bad and wait on them to go to hell, instead of striking them down and sending them to hell immediately? If God already knows a person is going to be a serial killer, or a terrorist, why not stop it? Why allow that person to inflict pain and suffering on so many people? Why do some religious people think that the second they do something bad that they'll get "struck down", when God already knew they were going to be performing the sin before they even existed?

As for the problem you're having with God being constrained by time, here's a basic example for you...now granted, it's not perfect, but bear with me. You're bored one day and decide to start a garden. You set the dirt, plant some seeds, and put up a fence. It spawns life, other things evolve within that garden, and it becomes an itty bitty society. You've got control over basic things, but all the little bugs and plants still have "free will". If you let the garden go on its merry way without interfering, it may develop into something more, or it may not. If you decide to pull up some plants because the season is changing and put something else in, you're making basic life and death decisions. Sure, you're not actually creating anything out of thin air, but in other ways you are taking on God-like responsibilities. You're also managing to carry them out linearly.

Another example is a goofy one from South Park. Cartman poured some random crap into water and it turned into Sea People, who evolved into a more advanced society (lets not get into the details of why!). The reason I bring this up is because, for all we know, God started time by pouring some random dust into his fish tank (aka the universe) and we could merely be one of his little pets that have slowly developed. He could be some duckbilled platypus (thank you, Southpark!), which is normal for his civilization, and we just developed on our own. He can control some things when he puts his hand or something else in the tank, but that's about it. Or maybe he's magical and can control things with his mind as well. But either way, he's still living in a linear scale while tinkering with his toys.

I'm in no way saying that my examples are at all correct, I'm just saying that life can be "created" all the time, so I don't see why the concept that someone else created life makes it impossible for Him to live in a linear scale as well.

One more point to make -- while I don't necessarily think it's true, it could be possible that God sees everything and knows what will happen between now and the end of time. Just because we have free will, we aren't hindered by him knowing our decisions. He may just know what our decisions will be, because we've already decided them. Kinda like the Matrix! :dance:

so its like one of those "you create the adventure" books they used to make?

No.

You cant logically claim free will, while stating God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

The two are polar opposites in the Free Will discussion.

No, they are not.

The polar opposite of free will is oppression. The polar opposite of omnisicient is stupid.

Oppression and stupidity are not mutually exclusive, and neither are Omniscience and freedom.

IOW: I fail to see how foresight negates free-will.


But, like I said, some won't accept the argument. You are one that won't. We'll have to agree to disagree, because I can't think of a single argument that will convince me that just because a choice is known ahead of time, the choice is not a choice.



If God saw you eat pizza and you ate a Ham&Cheese sandwich then God was Wrong. If God is never wrong, you could never eat the Ham&Cheese.

Is that stating God determined you were going to eat Pizza? No, but you do not have the ability to show God being Wrong. If you had Free Will you could.

Unless God did mandate that I eat pizza rather than Ham&Cheese, then it remains a choice of mine.. i.e. Free will.


But anyway, that's my argument. You've chosen to not accept it. That's fine, but simply repeating myself will not do anyone any good, so I'm gone. Peace out.

From an article from William Lane Craig where he addresses Molinism and Reformed Theology:

Reasonable Faith: Question 79 - Molinism and Romans 9 (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6675)

let's talk about Paul's doctrine of election in Romans 9. I want to share with you a perspective on Paul's teaching that I think you'll find very illuminating and encouraging. Typically, as a result of Reformed theology, we have a tendency to read Paul as narrowing down the scope of God's election to the very select few, and those not so chosen can't complain if God in His sovereignty overlooks them. I think this is a fundamental misreading of the chapter which makes very little sense in the context of Paul's letter.

Earlier in his letter Paul addresses the question of what advantage there is to Jewish identity if one fails to live up to the demands of the law (2. 17-3.21). He says that although being Jewish has great advantages in being the recipients of God's revelatory oracles, nevertheless being Jewish gives you no automatic claim to God's salvation. Instead, Paul asserts the radical and shocking claim that "He is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is of the heart, spiritual and not literal" (2. 28-29).

Paul held that "no human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the law" (3.20); rather "we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" (3. 29). That includes Gentiles as well as Jews. "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one" (3. 29-30).

Do you realize what that meant to Paul's Jewish contemporaries? Gentile "dogs" who have faith in Christ may actually be more Jewish than ethnic Jews and go into the Kingdom while God's chosen people are shut out! Unthinkable! Scandalous!

Paul goes on to support his view by appeal to the example of none less than Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation. Abraham, Paul explains, was pronounced righteous by God before he received circumcision. "The purpose," says Paul, "was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised [i.e., the Gentiles] and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised [note the qualification!] but also follow the example of faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised" (4.11-12).

This is explosive teaching. Paul begins chapter 9 by expressing his profound sorrow that ethnic Jews have missed God's salvation by rejecting their Messiah [= Christ]. But he says it's not as though God's word had failed. Rather, as we have already seen, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants" (9. 6-7). Being ethnically Jewish is not enough; rather one must be a child of the promise—and that, as we've seen, may include Gentiles and exclude Jews.

The problematic, then, with which Paul is wrestling is how God's chosen people the Jews could fail to obtain the promise of salvation while Gentiles, who were regarded by Jews as unclean and execrable, could find salvation instead. Paul's answer is that God is sovereign: He can save whomever He wants, and no one can gainsay God. He has the freedom to have mercy upon whomever He wills, even upon execrable Gentiles, and no one can complain of injustice on God's part.

So—and this is the crucial point—who is it that God has chosen to save? The answer is: those who have faith in Christ Jesus. As Paul writes in Galatians (which is a sort of abbreviated Romans), "So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham" (Gal. 3. 7). Jew or Gentile, it doesn't matter: God has sovereignly chosen to save all those who trust in Christ Jesus for salvation.

That's why Paul can go on in Romans 10 to say, "There is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For 'everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved'" (10. 12-13). Reformed theology can make no sense at all of this wonderful, universal call to salvation. Whosoever will may come.

Paul's burden, then, in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God's election but to broaden it. He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless of their ethnicity. Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation.

Of course, given God's total providence over the affairs of men, this is not the whole story. But Molinism makes good sense of the rest. John 6. 65 means that apart from God's grace no one can come to God on his own. But there's no suggestion there that those who refused to believe in Christ did not do so of their own free will. God knows in exactly what circumstances people will freely respond to His grace and places people in circumstances in which each one receives sufficient grace for salvation if only that person will avail himself of it. But God knows who will respond and who won't. So again the fault does not lie with God that some persons freely resist God's grace and every effort to save them; rather they like Israel fail to attain salvation because they refuse to have faith.

Why is God trying to tempt if he already knows what people would do in a given situation? If God knows everything, why bother with this life? Why not send everyone to heaven or hell and be done with it? What's the purpose if not to live and be unpredictable? Why get mad at people who are bad and wait on them to go to hell, instead of striking them down and sending them to hell immediately? If God already knows a person is going to be a serial killer, or a terrorist, why not stop it? Why allow that person to inflict pain and suffering on so many people? Why do some religious people think that the second they do something bad that they'll get "struck down", when God already knew they were going to be performing the sin before they even existed?Lots of good questions regarding God's intentions.

I don't know the answer.As for the problem you're having with God being constrained by time, here's a basic example for you...now granted, it's not perfect, but bear with me. You're bored one day and decide to start a garden. You set the dirt, plant some seeds, and put up a fence. It spawns life, other things evolve within that garden, and it becomes an itty bitty society. You've got control over basic things, but all the little bugs and plants still have "free will". If you let the garden go on its merry way without interfering, it may develop into something more, or it may not. If you decide to pull up some plants because the season is changing and put something else in, you're making basic life and death decisions. Sure, you're not actually creating anything out of thin air, but in other ways you are taking on God-like responsibilities. You're also managing to carry them out linearly.

Another example is a goofy one from South Park. Cartman poured some random crap into water and it turned into Sea People, who evolved into a more advanced society (lets not get into the details of why!). The reason I bring this up is because, for all we know, God started time by pouring some random dust into his fish tank (aka the universe) and we could merely be one of his little pets that have slowly developed. He could be some duckbilled platypus (thank you, Southpark!), which is normal for his civilization, and we just developed on our own. He can control some things when he puts his hand or something else in the tank, but that's about it. Or maybe he's magical and can control things with his mind as well. But either way, he's still living in a linear scale while tinkering with his toys.

I'm in no way saying that my examples are at all correct, I'm just saying that life can be "created" all the time, so I don't see why the concept that someone else created life makes it impossible for Him to live in a linear scale as well.

One more point to make -- while I don't necessarily think it's true, it could be possible that God sees everything and knows what will happen between now and the end of time. Just because we have free will, we aren't hindered by him knowing our decisions. He may just know what our decisions will be, because we've already decided them. Kinda like the Matrix! :dance:You have a lot of good hypotheticals there. The concepts (I don't think we're the pets of duck billed platypuses, but....) are certainly all possible.

I don't personally believ God is restrained by linear time, since my belief is that God created time as a function of the universe. Time, as we understand it, was not held to the same laws it is held to now in the first moment of the universe, according to the Big Bang theory. This tells me that time is a variable which could possibly be manipulated, if one just knew how. My personal belief is that God knows how, since it's His creation.

Now, all of this is separate from the concept of ID. My God could fit ID, or it could be completely wrong, and yet, ID still not be wrong. That, to me, is the difference between pure faith, and an open mind.