"FORT WORTH — Onstage before thousands of believers weighed down by debt and economic insecurity, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland and their all-star lineup of “prosperity gospel” preachers delighted the crowd with anecdotes about the luxurious lives they had attained by following the Word of God.

Private airplanes and boats. A motorcycle sent by an anonymous supporter. Vacations in Hawaii and cruises in Alaska. Designer handbags. A ring of emeralds and diamonds.

“God knows where the money is, and he knows how to get the money to you,” preached Mrs. Copeland, dressed in a crisp pants ensemble like those worn by C.E.O.’s.

Even in an economic downturn, preachers in the “prosperity gospel” movement are drawing sizable, adoring audiences. Their message — that if you have sufficient faith in God and the Bible and donate generously, God will multiply your offerings a hundredfold — is reassuring to many in hard times.

The preachers barely acknowledged the recession, though they did say it was no excuse to curtail giving. “Fear will make you stingy,” Mr. Copeland said.

But the offering buckets came up emptier than in some previous years, said those who have attended before.

Many in this flock do not trust banks, the news media or Washington, where the Senate Finance Committee is investigating whether the Copelands and other prosperity evangelists used donations to enrich themselves and abused their tax-exempt status. But they do trust the Copelands, the movement’s patriarch and matriarch, who seem to embody prosperity with their robust health and abundant crop of children and grandchildren who have followed them into the ministry. "

More at: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us/16gospel.html?_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimes

This is a good post, Nonno, because, while there are many sincere and trustworthy ministers, it is true that there many televangelist ministeries that either lay a guilt trip on people in order to get their money or induce people to give money with the expectation that the giver is going to gain greater financial blessings here on earth. The second group are the wolves in sheeps clothing that Jesus spoke of and whom He renounced.

In fact, Jesus proclaimed that His followers should be more interested in seeking the spiritual trreasures of heaven rather than earthly treasures of wealth:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Matthew 6:19-21)

And Paul proclaimed that those who are rich need to prioritize which "riches" are the most true and valuable to attain:

1 Timothy, Chapter 6, verses:

17: Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18: That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19: Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

"Prosperity doctrine" preachers are not preaching the True Word of God when they lure people into giving "tithes and offerings" and instill the false hope that God is going to replenish their coffers many times over. The only coffers that are getting replenished and full are those of the misguided and false preachers who are laughing all the way to the bank as they plan their next "mission trip" to Hawaii.

Unfortunately there are many sincere congregants who are already financially burdened and being lured into more financial difficulty by giving to these kind of preachers who are living high on the hog and high on a hill.

while there are many sincere and trustworthy ministers

Boy, I sure wish you could take this view of Catholic clergy when you condemn the whole lot of them based on the errors of a few.

:coffee:

T6dWSO0QfhY

:coffee:

T6dWSO0QfhY

Ozzy Osbourne is a twisted freak with nothing of goodness in his "work". God have mercy on his soul.

Ozzy Osbourne is a twisted freak with nothing of goodness in his "work". God have mercy on his soul.

Not true................sorry.

Boy, I sure wish you could take this view of Catholic clergy when you condemn the whole lot of them based on the errors of a few.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

While there are many sincere and good-hearted clergy in the Roman Catholic faith, the Vatican still preaches and teaches another Jesus; Not the Jesus of the New Testament.

The RCC Jesus:

1.) Allows worshippers to pray to other individuals as mediators rather than go directly to Him and through Him as sole mediator to God;

2.) Permits the office of the papacy to be the sole exclusive interpretor and dispenser of the Gospel Message upon this earth;

3.) Is unable to seal the salvation of a person's soul in the here and now by faith but, rather, sends good Catholics to a spiritual half-way house for a short-term punishment phase before he/she is allowed to enter heaven;

4.) Allows another man (priest) to pronounce "forgiveness" upon another through one's confession to the priest rather than to God.

5.) Allows the RCC clergy to require and accept "indulgences" (Pay-offs) in order to absolve a person's sins and/or lightens the sin load that is expected in "purgatory".

Just as Mormonism is sincere in preaching and teaching "another Gospel" and another Jesus" the RCC also preaches and teaches "another Gospel" and "another Jesus" by totally denying the NT Testament teachings and words concerning Jesus:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

(False doctrines, regardless of how nice and sincere they may appear, rob people of God's Truth)

Just a few toys!


Owner: Kenneth Copeland (3)
1944 Boeing B75N1 “Stearman”
Value: $70,000 to $140,000
Average cruising speed: 93 mph
A bi-plane used as a World War II trainer and later by barnstormers.

1953 North American T-28B “Trojan”
Value: $59,000 to $325,000
Average cruising speed: 208 mph
Loud, single-engine fighter trainer for the military.

1976 Beech E-55 “Baron”
Value: $144,000
Average cruising speed: 165 mph
The six-seater comes with an extended nose for baggage.

Owner: KGLEN Air (1)
1947 Republic RC-3 “Seabee”
Value: One is listed online for $40,000
Average cruising speed: 87 mph
Four-seat amphibious aircraft or “flying boat.”

Owner: Eagle Mountain International Church (5)
1962 Beech H-18 “Twin Beech”*
Value: $96,000
Maximum cruising speed: 220 mph
One of only six such aircraft licensed in Texas. The ministry said it is being restored for disaster relief use. Made with 11 seats.

1973 Cessna 421B “Golden Eagle” or “Executive Commuter”
Value: $220,000
Maximum cruising speed: 270 mph
Pressurized twin-engine business jet with eight seats. The ministry says it is under a contract, not yet finalized, to be sold.

1975 Cessna 500 “Citation”
Value: $850,000
Maximum cruising speed: 400 mph
A smooth, easy to fly but relatively slow “entry level” corporate jet with eight seats.

1998 Cessna 550 “Citation Bravo”
Value: $3.4 million
Maximum cruising speed: 400 mph
Donated to the church last month, according to the ministry. Seats up to nine.

2005 Cessna 750 “Citation X”
Value: $17.5 million
Maximum cruising speed: 588 mph
Cessna says similar models can travel from New York-to-London in about six hours.
* All make and model information is based on Federal Aviation Administration records. The church said that its Beech H-18 is a 1963 model.

I get quite appalled whenever I flip to a channel where under the pretenses of preaching the Word of God, these finangelists hawk their guilt-driven message of releasing God's 'blessings' upon one's life as long as one is 'obedient' in sowing a 'seed' of faith. I was watching one called 'Financial Solutions' and after some long drawn-out drivel the smooth-soothing soft-spoken seller of soul-sucking, swooning spells told the viewing audience that God told him that there were 200 business-minded 'partners' that should give $120 a piece into this ministry. So don't wait, pick that phone now. Let's see, that amount's to about $24,000. Not bad for a half hour program. With the same exact program airing 5 times a week, there is potential for $120,000. Ought to be a nice down payment on that Cessna 750 "Citation X", doncha think? Every minister of the wealth-gospel ought to have one, for travel purposes, you understand, in order for the wealth-gospel to spread. Oh, but of course, we don't know who these 200 specific 'partners' are, but if you were a partner, you surely wouldn't want to miss out on an opportunity to reap a blessing now, would you? Afterall, you seed determines your harvest. I wonder how many 'partners' he has?

And it's bad enough that these kinds of 'ministries' are pandering to gullible Americans who do not have the discernment to spot a phoney, but it is even more heart-wrenching to see then go into foreign third-world countries (presumable in their Cessna 750 "Citation X") and preach the same gospel, raking the poor from all they have, who come in hopes of some financial or healing miracle to manfest in their lives, which unfortunately never materializes.

I sometimes wonder if these finangelists even believe in God, 'cause how can they be so heartless and believe in a loving God at the same time, all the while knowingly scamming everyone in their path. Do they even have a conscience? They are worst than athiests or unbelievers. At least some of them are humanitarians.

5.) Allows the RCC clergy to require and accept "indulgences" (Pay-offs) in order to absolve a person's sins and/or lightens the sin load that is expected in "purgatory".


explain this in detail ..........

Nonno... since you refuse to accompany your mindless copy/paste articles with personal commentary, I really have no clue what your point is here except to point out the obvious...

There are greedy people of all walks of life. :bigwhoop:

explain this in detail ..........

OK

Question: "What are indulgences and plenary indulgences and is the concept Biblical?"

Answer: According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”

The following definitions are also very important in understanding this issue: Punishment, Eternal: “The penalty for unrepented mortal sin, separating the sinner from communion with God for all eternity; the condemnation of the unrepentant sinner to hell.” Punishment, Temporal: “Purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.” Purgatory: “A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that sin has a double consequence. For a member of the Catholic Church, committing a [mortal] sin causes “eternal punishment” – involving eternal separation from God and suffering in hell. (The Catholic Church also teaches that under normal circumstances those who have not been baptized by either the Roman Catholic Church or another church teaching baptismal regeneration are also condemned to hell because the stain of original sin remains upon their souls.) Venial [minor] sin, in contrast, does not cause “eternal punishment” but does cause “temporal punishment.” The Roman Catholic teachings sometimes refer to these “temporal punishments” given by God as a means of purifying His children (either in this life or in Purgatory). But the Roman Catholic Church also sees venial sins as creating a debt to God’s justice that must be atoned for in a way that is distinct from Christ’s atonement for eternal punishment. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that because of the unity of the Body of Christ (the Communion of the Saints) (including living believers, believers in heaven, RC saints in heaven, Christ, Mary, and the imperfect believers in Purgatory), it is possible for the merit generated by the good works, prayers, almsgiving, sufferings, etc. of one or more of these members of the Body to be applied to the temporal debt of another. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the combined merit of Christ, the saints, and godly believers is stored in a place referred to as the Treasury of Merit (it is also sometimes called the Treasury of Satisfaction, the Church’s Treasury, or the thesaurus Ecclesiae). And through apostolic succession from Peter, it is the Roman Catholic Church alone that has the authority to withdraw merit from this treasury and dispense it to believers in this life or in Purgatory to atone for some or all of their venial sin. This it does through the granting of indulgences.

Again, Indulgences pertain only to temporal, not eternal, punishment and can only be distributed through a Roman Catholic Church leader to someone who is either in Purgatory or is still living and whose soul is in the state of sanctifying grace (i.e., he/she would go to Purgatory, not hell, if he/she were to die at that moment). An indulgence can be obtained through a good deed done, a Mass being offered on behalf of someone, prayer, abstinence, giving to the poor, or some other meritorious act performed in accordance with requirements set by a Pope or bishop having jurisdiction over that individual. The offering of a Mass for someone is seen as one of the most effective means of reducing the temporal punishment of that person in Purgatory. A partial indulgence will reduce the temporal punishment a person has. A plenary indulgence will remove all temporal punishment.

Is the concept of indulgences biblical?

Various Roman Catholic Church doctrines are derived from tradition rather than from Scripture. And as the Roman Catholic Church sees their tradition as consistent with Scripture and equal to Scripture in authority, this is not an issue with them. But to most other Christian groups, the Bible alone is the source of authority and is more than sufficient in supplying Christians with all the resources they need to know and serve Christ as God intended (2 Timothy 3:15-17; Acts 20:32). But because the Roman Catholic Church states that its doctrines are not contradictory to Scripture and accepts Scripture as part of its authority, it is appropriate for both groups to ask, “Are indulgences biblical?”

An examination of the passages the Roman Catholic Church uses to support such doctrines as temporal punishment, vicarious atonement by fellow believers and saints, and Purgatory, illustrate the Catholic reliance on tradition above and beyond Scripture. Other doctrines, such as the treasury of merit, the “pristine and unfathomable merit of Mary,” the “superabundant merit of the saints,” and the existence of indulgences are foreign to Scripture altogether! Is the doctrine of indulgences scriptural? A consistent and contextual interpretation of Scripture will neither support the teaching of indulgences, nor the doctrines it is built upon.

Indulgences and Purgatory

The Roman Catholic Church cites a few passages for their scriptural support of Purgatory. In addition to a passage from the apocryphal 2 Maccabees, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Matthew 5:26; and Matthew 12:32 are also given as scriptural support. Matthew 5:26 is part of a parable on the issue of forgiveness. Matthew 12:32 is addressing the issue (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). Neither passage focuses upon what happens after death nor gives a clear teaching of what takes place after death. It is a principle of hermeneutics (the study of how to rightly interpret Scripture) that one should interpret “unclear” passages that merely touch on an issue by passages that focus on that issue or are clear about that issue. To interpret these verses as teaching that there is a place of further atoning and purifying in Purgatory after death flies in the face of many clear statements in the Bible that there are only two places that one will end up in after death; being either to be with the Lord in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) or to be in torment in hell (Luke 16:23-24; Revelation. 20:10-15). The Bible does not say that after death comes "further purification;" it says, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:28). See the GotQuestions.org article on What does the Bible say about Purgatory? for a further discussion on this issue.

Indulgences and Penance

Catholics speak of “doing penance” for their sins. At the end of confession to a priest, the confessor is given certain things to do (such as certain prayers to pray) that are a part of “doing penance.” Part of the purpose of this penance is to bring about a returning of one’s disposition away from sin and back toward God. But another purpose mentioned repeatedly in Roman Catholic literature is that of paying or atoning for one’s sins. This is not the same as making restitution to those hurt by one’s sin, but rather involves making a payment toward the temporal punishment to satisfy God’s justice. This latter purpose is closely tied to the idea of indulgences and is not mentioned is Scripture. The Bible does speak of repentance, referring to a “change of mind about one’s sin that results in a change in behavior.” John the Baptist’s ministry and teaching is summarized in Luke 3:3-18. He told those that were baptized by him (their baptism being a sign of their repentance) to show by their deeds that their repentance was real. But never is there the message of “you must pay or atone for your sins by doing some good deed or by abstinence,” or by anything else. By this call to good works, John was essentially saying, “Show me your repentance is genuine by your works” (cf. James 2:18). But again, the idea of “doing penance” as an atoning for our sins or a repaying of a temporal debt to God’s justice is never mentioned in Scripture!


It is our prayer that as the apostle Paul saw many converted to Christ because they compared his teachings to Scripture (Acts 17:10-12), so those who read this summary would read the inerrant and infallible Word of God for themselves and simply ask, “Are the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church found in what I have read? Do they ‘fit’ both the immediate context of any given passage and the context of the New Testament as a whole? Is the ‘system’ of the Roman Catholic Church found in the New Testament?” It is our prayer that all those who claim the Name of Christ would turn to the simplicity of trusting Christ alone and desire to live for Him out of gratitude for all He has done for them (Romans chapters 3-12).

(more detail)

What are indulgences and plenary indulgences and is the concept Biblical? (http://www.gotquestions.org/plenary-indulgences.html)

On Indulgences:

(excerpt)
...In the late thirteenth century, the church came up with the idea of indulgences. In the spiritual life of sinners, indulgences function exactly the same way money functions in their economic life. Here's the logic: since the expiation of sin involves temporal punishment and this temporal punishment involves the doing of good works, why not substitute someone else's good works for the good works you're required to do? Why not pay someone else to do the good works demanded of you as temporal punishment?

Church officials argued that clergy were doing more good works then they needed to; they had, you might say, more than good works in their spiritual accounts than they had sins to pay for. Why not sell them? So selling the good works of the church was precisely what the church did. With the approval of the pope, individual bishops could sell indulgences which more or less paid off any temporal punishment or good works that the individual believer had accumulated in the previous year. It substituted the good works of the Catholic clergy for the good works required of the individual believer. Proof of this substitution was in the indulgence itself, which was a piece of paper, like a piece of money or a check, that certified that the good works of the clergy had paid off the "good works debt" of the individual believer.

Inspired by the need to raise money, indulgences reproduced the very logic of money. In place of the real thing (good works), indulgences substituted a completely valueless piece of paper. The only reason this worked is because everybody accepted this to be a valid substitution, just like everybody accepts money as a substitution for things that have value.

Indulgences had their critics from the very beginning. With the invention of the printing press, however, indulgences could be printed in mass quantities (they had to be written out by hand in the Middle Ages) and became big business for the church. As business grew, so did criticism of the practice. Nowhere was criticism of the church more revolutionary than in northern Europe.


The first hint of things to come were the complaints from Northern Renaissance thinkers such as Thomas More and Desiderius Erasmus. Inspired in part by the spectacle of selling both indulgences and church offices, these two argued for a return to a simple church that was based primarily on faith and charity.


The church, however, was forced to sit up and listen when Martin Luther (1483-1546) attacked the practice in his famous 95 Theses. He did not, however, stop with indulgences, but attacked the entire logic behind "good works." In part responding the the humanism of Erasmus, Luther rejected any exterior qualities of an individual as being relevant to that individual's relationship to God. Just as indulgences do not really mean that the purchaser has achieved good works, so good works do not mean that the doer is either repentant or faithful. The logic of indulgences, for Luther, indicted the logic of most church practices that relied on exterior behaviors, such as good works, rituals, and icons.

Indulgences (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/INDULGE.HTM)

[Edit: There are many more sources of information for all the detail you want - just type the key-word Indulgences and you should have plenty to read from.]
:)

It was Tetzel's brain child to raise money to build St Peters Cathedral here was his pitch to steel The poors money.
"When a coin in the coffer rings another soul from purgeorty springs!"
There was no limit to their shamefull practices.
Probabally the worst was keeping the word of God to themselves and doing a mass in Latain that after awhile they didnt even know what they were saying as it was just rehearsed without knowing what they wre saying.

<CENTER>The Text of a Sermon on Indulgences
by Johann Tetzel</CENTER>
What are you thinking about? Why do you hesitate to convert yourself? Why don't you have fears about your sins? Why don't you confess now to the vicars of our Most Holy Pope? Don't you have the example of Lawrence, who, compelled by the love of God, gave away his inheritance and suffered his body to be burned? Why do you not take the example of Bartholomew, Stephen, and of other saints who gladly suffered the most gruesome deaths for the sake and salvation of their souls? You, however, do not give up great treasures; indeed you give not even a moderate alms. They gave their bodies to be martyred, but you delight in living well and joyfully. You priest, nobleman, merchant, wife, virgin, you married people, young person, old man, enter into your church which is for you, as I have said, St. Peter's, and visit the most holy Cross. It has been placed there for you, and it always cries and calls for you. Are you perhaps ashamed to visit the Cross with a candle and yet not ashamed to visit a tavern? Are you ashamed to go to the apostolic confessors, but not ashamed to go to a dance? Behold, you are on the raging sea of the world in storm and danger, not knowing if you will safely reach the harbor of salvation. Do you not know that everything which man has hangs on a thin thread and that all of life is but a struggle on earth? Let us then fight, as did Lawrence and the other saints, for the day it is well, but ill tomorrow. Today alive and tomorrow dead.
You should know that all who confess and in penance put alms into the coffer according to the counsel of the confessor, will obtain complete remission of all their sins. If they visit, after confession and after the Jubilee, the Cross and the altar every day they will receive that indulgence which would be theirs upon visiting in St. Peter's the seven altars, where complete indulgence is offered. Why are you then standing there? Run for the salvation of your souls! Be as careful and concerned for the salvation of your souls as you are for your temporal goods, which you seek both day and night. Seek the Lord while he may be found and while he is near. Work, as St. John says, while it it yet day, for the night comes when no man can work. Don't you hear the voices of your wailing dead parents and others who say, 'Have mercy upon me, have mercy upon me, because we are in severe punishment and pain. From this you could redeem us with a small alms and yet you do not want to do so.' Open your ears as the father says to the son and the mother to the daughter . . ., 'We have created you, fed you, cared for you, and left you our temporal goods. Why then are you so cruel and harsh that you do not want to save us, though it only takes a little? You let us lie in flames so that we only slowly come to the promised glory.' You may have letters which let you have, once in life and in the hour of death . . . full remission of the punishment which belongs to sin. Oh, those of you with vows, you usurers, robbers, murderers, and criminals - Now is the time to hear the voice of God. He does not want the death of the sinner, but that he be converted and live. Convert yourselves then, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, to the Lord, thy God. Oh, you blasphemers, gossippers, who hinder this work openly or secretly, what about your affairs? You are outside the fellowship of the Church. No masses, no sermons, prayers, sacraments, or intercession help you. No field, vineyard, trees, or cattle bring fruit or wine for you. Even spiritual things vanish, as many an illustration could point out. Convert yourself with all you heart and use the medicine of which the Book of Wisdom says, 'The Most High has made medicine out of the earth and a wise man will not reject it.'

On Indulgences:

(excerpt)
...In the late thirteenth century, the church came up with the idea of indulgences. In the spiritual life of sinners, indulgences function exactly the same way money functions in their economic life. Here's the logic: since the expiation of sin involves temporal punishment and this temporal punishment involves the doing of good works, why not substitute someone else's good works for the good works you're required to do? Why not pay someone else to do the good works demanded of you as temporal punishment?

Church officials argued that clergy were doing more good works then they needed to; they had, you might say, more than good works in their spiritual accounts than they had sins to pay for. Why not sell them? So selling the good works of the church was precisely what the church did. With the approval of the pope, individual bishops could sell indulgences which more or less paid off any temporal punishment or good works that the individual believer had accumulated in the previous year. It substituted the good works of the Catholic clergy for the good works required of the individual believer. Proof of this substitution was in the indulgence itself, which was a piece of paper, like a piece of money or a check, that certified that the good works of the clergy had paid off the "good works debt" of the individual believer.

Inspired by the need to raise money, indulgences reproduced the very logic of money. In place of the real thing (good works), indulgences substituted a completely valueless piece of paper. The only reason this worked is because everybody accepted this to be a valid substitution, just like everybody accepts money as a substitution for things that have value.

Indulgences had their critics from the very beginning. With the invention of the printing press, however, indulgences could be printed in mass quantities (they had to be written out by hand in the Middle Ages) and became big business for the church. As business grew, so did criticism of the practice. Nowhere was criticism of the church more revolutionary than in northern Europe.


The first hint of things to come were the complaints from Northern Renaissance thinkers such as Thomas More and Desiderius Erasmus. Inspired in part by the spectacle of selling both indulgences and church offices, these two argued for a return to a simple church that was based primarily on faith and charity.


The church, however, was forced to sit up and listen when Martin Luther (1483-1546) attacked the practice in his famous 95 Theses. He did not, however, stop with indulgences, but attacked the entire logic behind "good works." In part responding the the humanism of Erasmus, Luther rejected any exterior qualities of an individual as being relevant to that individual's relationship to God. Just as indulgences do not really mean that the purchaser has achieved good works, so good works do not mean that the doer is either repentant or faithful. The logic of indulgences, for Luther, indicted the logic of most church practices that relied on exterior behaviors, such as good works, rituals, and icons.

Indulgences (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/INDULGE.HTM)

[Edit: There are many more sources of information for all the detail you want - just type the key-word Indulgences and you should have plenty to read from.]
:)

Lots of detail here, but little but little real information about Indulgences.

This is another one of those topics that non-Catholics probably bring up more than we do...Even as a life-long practicing Catholic I had to study on it a bit...This is what I understand and maybe Libby can correct anything I'm wrong about.

Catholics believe that we can not have full communion with God in Heaven until we atone for our earthly sins. Through Confession we are forgiven of the sin, but there is further a "punishment" for the sin. For lesser sins we do pennance (prayer) as a sort of simple indulgence. For more serious sins Penance is not enough and the rest of the "punishment" is done in the afterlife (in Purgatory). Indulgences are good works or sacrifices that may reduce the burden of punishment in Purgatory. THEY ARE NOT NORMALLY FINANCIAL. If they are done as donations they are not to "pay the priest for forgiveness", (though admittedly in the dark ages this was done, we no longer dwell in ancient history, do we?) This is not a work (or pay) for salvation arrangement. One must truly regret the sin, be forgiven and not repeat the sinful act for indulgence to provide any blessing.

Boy, I sure wish you could take this view of Catholic clergy when you condemn the whole lot of them based on the errors of a few.

No fault of their own..

They've been suckered into the Ponzi Scheme, just like their followers..

the Catholic Church is a HUGE business, making hundreds if not thousands of people rich, while asking people living beneath the poverty line to give up the cash.

I mean, WHY would a church need BILLIONS of dollars worth of art and artifacts, other than amassing wealth?

Give your life to Allah for everlasting life.. Give your Money to your church for everlasting life.. Neither sounds very sane.

I'm POSITIVE there are well meaning, and GREAT ministers that want nothing but good for their parishioners.. but I THINK most look at it as a way to make a living working ONE day a week. And if you watch you can see EVERYTHING they do is to recruit ONE more person that can give to their church..

Lots of detail here, but little but little real information about Indulgences.

This is another one of those topics that non-Catholics probably bring up more than we do...Even as a life-long practicing Catholic I had to study on it a bit...This is what I understand and maybe Libby can correct anything I'm wrong about.

Catholics believe that we can not have full communion with God in Heaven until we atone for our earthly sins. Through Confession we are forgiven of the sin, but there is further a "punishment" for the sin. For lesser sins we do pennance (prayer) as a sort of simple indulgence. For more serious sins Penance is not enough and the rest of the "punishment" is done in the afterlife (in Purgatory). Indulgences are good works or sacrifices that may reduce the burden of punishment in Purgatory. THEY ARE NOT NORMALLY FINANCIAL. If they are done as donations they are not to "pay the priest for forgiveness", (though admittedly in the dark ages this was done, we no longer dwell in ancient history, do we?) This is not a work (or pay) for salvation arrangement. One must truly regret the sin, be forgiven and not repeat the sinful act for indulgence to provide any blessing.


Thank you for your truthful reply about what you have been taught. Please, prayerfully consider the following:

O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:15-17)

I am confused though, why would you accept it, or by into a non biblical practice that came about way latter to stay out of a place that doesn’t exist. Christ speaks of hell much more than heaven. Purgatory isn’t in the bible at all, and scripture tells us everything we need to know. If there was an option C why wouldn’t it have gotten more than a single misinterpreted passage referring to the refiners fire.

For that matter taking money out of the equation( which is how it started) and going with a modern version. Why would you want to slap God in the face and pride fully say I don’t want your free gift thank you very much I am going to go about earning my salvation my way and try to earn it?

If Christ or the Apostles didnt teach it as truth, then why just excepted because its impossed on you, sort of like the health care bill?

The Church took huge liberties when it decide it was going to be the means of salvation, interpretation, and justification. Its just like or federal government doing what it has no right to do just because it can. To power hungry bullies is the way I see it and I dont see the charecter or nature of Christ in either.

I am confused though, why would you accept it, or by into a non biblical practice that came about way latter to stay out of a place that doesn’t exist. Christ speaks of hell much more than heaven. Purgatory isn’t in the bible at all, and scripture tells us everything we need to know. If there was an option C why wouldn’t it have gotten more than a single misinterpreted passage referring to the refiners fire.

For that matter taking money out of the equation( which is how it started) and going with a modern version. Why would you want to slap God in the face and pride fully say I don’t want your free gift thank you very much I am going to go about earning my salvation my way and try to earn it?

If Christ or the Apostles didnt teach it as truth, then why just excepted because its impossed on you, sort of like the health care bill?

The Church took huge liberties when it decide it was going to be the means of salvation, interpretation, and justification. Its just like or federal government doing what it has no right to do just because it can. To power hungry bullies is the way I see it and I dont see the charecter or nature of Christ in either.

Good question, Marie, but the truth is that a multitude of people accept whatever they are indoctrinated to believe because a member of the "clergy" said so. People are to be able to question why their church teaches what it does and compare the teaching to scripture context. Many "church-going" people don't really bother to read the Holy Bible on their own and rely on just what is preached from the pulpit - without checking to see if what is being said is true to The Word.


However, as believers we are also told that since we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God we will be able to discern truth from error and that is why we are to trust God and not man for true spiritual guidance. The neat thing is that Jesus promised those who trust in Him that He would never leave them/us nor forsake them/us. His promise to send the Holy Spirit is complete when one becomes born-again. And it is by the Spirit that we are led into Truth. That's why we are not to regard any "religious leader" from an organized religion as being any closer to God than what we can be.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
(1 John 2:26-28)

I am confused though, why would you accept it, or by into a non biblical practice that came about way latter to stay out of a place that doesn’t exist. Christ speaks of hell much more than heaven. Purgatory isn’t in the bible at all, and scripture tells us everything we need to know. If there was an option C why wouldn’t it have gotten more than a single misinterpreted passage referring to the refiners fire.

For that matter taking money out of the equation( which is how it started) and going with a modern version. Why would you want to slap God in the face and pride fully say I don’t want your free gift thank you very much I am going to go about earning my salvation my way and try to earn it?

If Christ or the Apostles didnt teach it as truth, then why just excepted because its impossed on you, sort of like the health care bill?

The Church took huge liberties when it decide it was going to be the means of salvation, interpretation, and justification. Its just like or federal government doing what it has no right to do just because it can. To power hungry bullies is the way I see it and I dont see the charecter or nature of Christ in either.

You have many good questions here but reveal a huge bias against the (Catholic) Church and potentially all churches.

I choose to be a Catholic, because worshipping with others increases my faith experience. I am not coersed in to anything, nor do I accept anything blindly. Are there prople that do blindly follow Catholic practices?...Yes there are as many there are there are that follow any other religious movement; either a church or fundamentalist type group.

Churches have existed through many ages and their role has reflected their evolution. How would we have translations of the bible if it weren't for the various churches? How could people study the bible independently in times where they couldn't read? In times like these the roles you so dislike were the only way people could learn the "means of salvation". The church cites Biblical basis for its role in salvation and justification that you do not accept..so I won't print them again.

As I have said many times, participating in a church in no way negates anyone's need to have a personal relationship with God...and this is not the point of the Catholic Church. If we do it right we "live a Christian Life enriched by our Catholic worship....We don't just attend a church and receive sacraments. No Catholic should work for the forgiveness of the Church...It is the forgiveness of the Lord that we must seek.

So what is a Christian life? I think you would agree that it is foremost to have faith in Jesus Christ as our savior (the Catholic Church absolutely requires this) ..To support our faith we need to avoid distractions like sin and greed and to serve the Lord through service to others.

To the degree that pennance (I don't particularly like the word indulgences since it is ripe for misinterpretation) keeps us mindfull of the distraction of sin to our faith, how is it so against the Bible. Jesus and the disciples lived lives of financial sacrifice, good works and prayer. How is a practice that requires these so non-biblical.

You have many good questions here but reveal a huge bias against the (Catholic) Church and potentially all churches.

I choose to be a Catholic, because worshipping with others increases my faith experience. I am not coersed in to anything, nor do I accept anything blindly. Are there prople that do blindly follow Catholic practices?...Yes there are as many there are there are that follow any other religious movement; either a church or fundamentalist type group.

Churches have existed through many ages and their role has reflected their evolution. How would we have translations of the bible if it weren't for the various churches? How could people study the bible independently in times where they couldn't read? In times like these the roles you so dislike were the only way people could learn the "means of salvation". The church cites Biblical basis for its role in salvation and justification that you do not accept..so I won't print them again.

As I have said many times, participating in a church in no way negates anyone's need to have a personal relationship with God...and this is not the point of the Catholic Church. If we do it right we "live a Christian Life enriched by our Catholic worship....We don't just attend a church and receive sacraments. No Catholic should work for the forgiveness of the Church...It is the forgiveness of the Lord that we must seek.

So what is a Christian life? I think you would agree that it is foremost to have faith in Jesus Christ as our savior (the Catholic Church absolutely requires this) ..To support our faith we need to avoid distractions like sin and greed and to serve the Lord through service to others.

To the degree that pennance (I don't particularly like the word indulgences since it is ripe for misinterpretation) keeps us mindfull of the distraction of sin to our faith, how is it so against the Bible. Jesus and the disciples lived lives of financial sacrifice, good works and prayer. How is a practice that requires these so non-biblical.

Herein is the dichotomy and conflict that arises between organized religions when compared to Biblical Truths. Organized religions establish their varying standards by which the masses (no pun intended) are to follow in obedience to "church dogma" which encompasses sets of interpreted beliefs, rituals, and traditions. Regardless of the denomination, Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. - all claim a fundamental belief in Jesus.
The question becomes which of them is the True Jesus?

Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic teachings, as established by the Vatican, are as much at fault for teaching another concept of the True Jesus to the point that the Vatican negates God's Grace of Salvation on faith alone but implies that there will be a spiritual half-way house that you must pass through before you can gain entrance into heaven. That is taught by the Vatican but it is not scriptural no matter how many "out of context" verses from the Bible are made to appear that purgatory exists and that you are able to absolve and lessen the punishments in purgatory through "penance"
and good works. Jesus taught strongly against such manners of people believing they can be secure by following the church doctrines and traditions that may satisfy the religious leadership but not God. Jesus felt so strongly about this that He oftentimes chastised the "religious leaders" of His time who believed they were doing a service for God through their practices:

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Matthew 15:7-9)

and:

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:5-9)

And Paul warned strongly about this as well:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

The problem is that when the "church" (any church) gets wrapped up in faith-based traditions, rituals and doctrinal dogma they congregants spend more time trying to abide by those things rather than obeying the direct and Spiritual Guidance that comes from establishing a one-on-one personal relationship between the believer and God.

The "church" has no power to save you; only God does through the one-on-one relationship of becoming Born-Again as Jesus said one must be.

1 Corinthians 2, verses:

10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

No fault of their own..

They've been suckered into the Ponzi Scheme, just like their followers..

the Catholic Church is a HUGE business, making hundreds if not thousands of people rich, while asking people living beneath the poverty line to give up the cash.

I mean, WHY would a church need BILLIONS of dollars worth of art and artifacts, other than amassing wealth?

Give your life to Allah for everlasting life.. Give your Money to your church for everlasting life.. Neither sounds very sane.

I'm POSITIVE there are well meaning, and GREAT ministers that want nothing but good for their parishioners.. but I THINK most look at it as a way to make a living working ONE day a week. And if you watch you can see EVERYTHING they do is to recruit ONE more person that can give to their church..

The Catholic clergy are stewards of great wealth amassed by the church over around 2000 years...While some small part of this wealth may be "ill-gotten", most of it was willing given to the keeping of Church in good faith (excuse the pun).

The Catholic Clergy obviously have access to this wealth, but do not keep it as personal wealth. It's similar to the president getting to live in the White House and fly on Air Force 1 but not getting to keep them.

Priests live lives of personal and financial sacrifice. They are not assured a cushy retirement of consulting and speaking fees like a politician. Popes work themselves dead. Priest and other clergy work into old age and disability with no retirement plan; beyond the hope of a group home with the Little Sisters of the Poor, where they will be treated similar to the indigents the sisters also care for.

Are people getting rich off of the practice of the faith...Yes I guess so, but no one that I know is.

Herein is the dichotomy and conflict that arises between organized religions when compared to Biblical Truths. Organized religions establish their varying standards by which the masses (no pun intended) are to follow in obedience to "church dogma" which encompasses sets of interpreted beliefs, rituals, and traditions. Regardless of the denomination, Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. - all claim a fundamental belief in Jesus.
The question becomes which of them is the True Jesus?

Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic teachings, as established by the Vatican, are as much at fault for teaching another concept of the True Jesus to the point that the Vatican negates God's Grace of Salvation on faith alone but implies that there will be a spiritual half-way house that you must pass through before you can gain entrance into heaven. That is taught by the Vatican but it is not scriptural no matter how many "out of context" verses from the Bible are made to appear that purgatory exists and that you are able to absolve and lessen the punishments in purgatory through "penance"
and good works. Jesus taught strongly against such manners of people believing they can be secure by following the church doctrines and traditions that may satisfy the religious leadership but not God. Jesus felt so strongly about this that He oftentimes chastised the "religious leaders" of His time who believed they were doing a service for God through their practices:

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Matthew 15:7-9)

and:

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:5-9)

And Paul warned strongly about this as well:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

The problem is that when the "church" (any church) gets wrapped up in faith-based traditions, rituals and doctrinal dogma they congregants spend more time trying to abide by those things rather than obeying the direct and Spiritual Guidance that comes from establishing a one-on-one personal relationship between the believer and God.

The "church" has no power to save you; only God does through the one-on-one relationship of becoming Born-Again as Jesus said one must be.

1 Corinthians 2, verses:

10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Starman we've beat this dog before...He is dead and we are now beating an already gooey carcass...

What you puked out here is what I said in one paragraph of the response you quoted from....So why do you need to put out reams of info suggesting that the church is at fault for lazy and lackadaisical christians?

Starman we've beat this dog before...He is dead and we are now beating an already gooey carcass...

What you puked out here is what I said in one paragraph of the response you quoted from....So why do you need to put out reams of info suggesting that the church is at fault for lazy and lackadaisical christians?

Because there are many who still haven't learned! Just doing my job and will continue to do so. :)

Because there are many who still haven't learned! Just doing my job and will continue to do so. :)

OK. So once again your point is made and my point is made....

Peace out, Brother Starman :howdy:

OK. So once again your point is made and my point is made....

Peace out, Brother Starman :howdy:

:buddies:

Here’s a question for you and yes I am bias but I use the first century church as a role model, I also look at church history and what motivated the changes.

I was attending Bible study tonight and someone wanted to do a Bible study from Max Lucado I had a real problem with that as he's a false teacher. He teaches salvation occurs through Baptism and that’s Heresy.

So tonight’s study was a RC men’s conference and it was influenced by a RC charismatic. And Wham I heard the guy say this and still don’t believe it, that Salvation occurred in Baptism. I ask my Catholic friend if that’s what the church teaches or if this was the charismatic influence and he thought the later.
Although the catechism isn’t clear on pages 342-343 it sure sounds like that’s what it’s teaching. Is this what they believe?

The other thing I never heard before is Mary is the wife of the Holy Spirit; boy did that cause a fuss! There were red flags dropping all over the room on that foul.

the other thing I never heard before is mary is the wife of the Holy Spirit, boy did that cause a fuss! There were red flags dropping all over the room on that foul.

She got Preggers from SOMEwhere.. who do you think planted the seed?

Personally, I'd skip the bible study classes and take an English as a Second Language class, or a writing and grammar class.

Your time and money would be better spent.

The Catholic clergy are stewards of great wealth amassed by the church over around 2000 years...While some small part of this wealth may be "ill-gotten", most of it was willing given to the keeping of Church in good faith (excuse the pun).

The Catholic Clergy obviously have access to this wealth, but do not keep it as personal wealth. It's similar to the president getting to live in the White House and fly on Air Force 1 but not getting to keep them.

Priests live lives of personal and financial sacrifice. They are not assured a cushy retirement of consulting and speaking fees like a politician. Popes work themselves dead. Priest and other clergy work into old age and disability with no retirement plan; beyond the hope of a group home with the Little Sisters of the Poor, where they will be treated similar to the indigents the sisters also care for.

Are people getting rich off of the practice of the faith...Yes I guess so, but no one that I know is.

it's not even CLOSE to the same as the White House.

There are thousand involved in running of ALL churches. Most are even salaried, and their salaries would make a lot of people embarassed, and as I said, the priests in the Catholic Church? They are pawns just like the parishioners.. what a scam. Not only do you talk people out of 10% of their income, but you have a veritable FREE workforce doing the dirty work for you.. THOUSANDS of priests and nuns who have all taken vows of chastity and poverty hired to gather YOUR money to support the church. They collect it and it goes right through their hands to their local leaders, district, right to the head office. I bet their accounting system and offices would make the LARGEST corporation look on in awe. They probably spend enough a month in just tracking their money, that they could feed ALL of the children in Ethiopia with it.


You look at all the great cathedrals, churches, and the amassed fortunes. Then reconcile that to history.. as in, when the great Cathedrals were built, what was going on in the world. Huge famines, disease, plagues, but instead of helping out the populace the church(es, it's not just the Catholics), built great temples, and adornments. Idols of their worship, to prove how great THEIR God was, and how GREAT and humble they were.

How many MILLIONS of people could have been saved had this money been used for food.. or medicine, or to improve the lives of the people that lived within 100 - 500 miles of the church?

They (ALL churches) have amassed their fortunes from the sweat of their parishioners. Doesn't matter it you're dirt poor, or rich, they want their 10%. Instead of using it to help mankind, they build buildings, buy (or steal) multi-million dollar pieces of artwork, sculptures, real estate.. ALL tax free.

She got Preggers from SOMEwhere.. who do you think planted the seed?

Personally, I'd skip the bible study classes and take an English as a Second Language class, or a writing and grammar class.

Your time and money would be better spent.


Hi Bob,

Hey I am hearing some bitterness, not just hostility towards the church but towards me as well.

I am courious, but its more of a question to ask yourself, Where is that coming from? Whats behind that? Is this resentment from being burnt in the RC church? Or you just really angery with God and hate him and anyone who loves him?

I guess the why really isnt important, but I hope you can figure that out and get it resolved. Carrying that around is really destructive in the long run.

Hi Bob,

Hey I am hearing some bitterness, not just hostility towards the church but towards me as well.

I am courious, but its more of a question to ask yourself, Where is that coming from? Whats behind that? Is this resentment from being burnt in the RC church? Or you just really angery with God and hate him and anyone who loves him?

I guess the why really isnt important, but I hope you can figure that out and get it resolved. Carrying that around is really destructive in the long run.

You'd be wrong on all accounts.

I'm not angry, I'm not mad.. Have never been Catholic, and never will be.

It's just sad to see smart innocent people being taken advantage of by their church.. giving them 10% of their income for the promise of salvation and "everlasting life".. [you don't have to pay for salvation, and God doesn't need your money.. Organized religion is hoax and a scam]

Imagine, if all those people put away 10% of their income their entire life for their future on earth.. how well off would they be? How happy and carefree would their 'golden years' be?

Here’s a question for you and yes I am bias but I use the first century church as a role model, I also look at church history and what motivated the changes.

I was attending Bible study tonight and someone wanted to do a Bible study from Max Lucado I had a real problem with that as he's a false teacher. He teaches salvation occurs through Baptism and that’s Heresy.

So tonight’s study was a RC men’s conference and it was influenced by a RC charismatic. And Wham I heard the guy say this and still don’t believe it, that Salvation occurred in Baptism. I ask my Catholic friend if that’s what the church teaches or if this was the charismatic influence and he thought the later.
Although the catechism isn’t clear on pages 342-343 it sure sounds like that’s what it’s teaching. Is this what they believe?

The other thing I never heard before is Mary is the wife of the Holy Spirit; boy did that cause a fuss! There were red flags dropping all over the room on that foul.

I always hope that Libby will fill in these kinds of questions, since she is better at Church doctrine than I am, but in her absence I'll try to muddle through. The Catholic Church has historically preached that Baptism is a prerequisite for salvation, but does not ensure salvation. Very recently the Church has softened the the stance that a young baby can not go to heaven without the Sacrement of Baptism, but that is admittedly quite new in an old church.

I have not heard Mary referred to as the wife of the Holy Spirit (and it sounds kind of icky), but I think it does refer to the conception of Jesus.