"If one were asked to prescribe the fundamental condition for a good world, it would be: peace and freedom for all, where "freedom" means personal autonomy and mental liberation from prejudice, superstition, ignorance and fear. Cynics will no doubt think this a saccharine sentiment merely, if only on the grounds that it is unattainable and that one had better stick to the realities of a world in which the majority of people are trapped in economic and intellectual prisons made by history, perpetuated and promoted by demagogues and the greedy and powerful.

The cynics are of course right about the realities, but that does not mean one should shrug one's shoulders and capitulate. There is something one can do to fight back, by taking part in the battle that underlies it all: the battle (to put it in Voltaire's terms) between those who seek the truth and those who claim to have it.

On one side are those who inquire, examine, experiment, research, propose ideas and subject them to scrutiny, change their minds when shown to be wrong and live with uncertainty while placing reliance on the collective, self-critical, responsible and rigorous use of reason and observation to further the quest for knowledge.

On the other side are those who espouse a belief system or ideology which pre-packages all the answers, who have faith in it, who trust the authorities, priests and prophets, and who either think that the hows and whys of the universe are explained to satisfaction by their faith, or smugly embrace ignorance. Note that although the historical majority of these latter are the epigones of one or another religion, they also include the followers of such ideologies as Marxism and Stalinism – which are also all-embracing monolithic ownerships of the Great Truth to which everyone must sign up on pain of punishment, and on whose behalf their zealots are prepared to kill and die."

More at: By their works shall ye know them | AC Grayling | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/16/atheism-creationism-faith-doctrine)

That's why There Is Only One Truth!

Let's try evaluating Truth whereby There Is Only One Truth to the following:

1.) God Exists.

2.) God Does Not Exist.

3.) Jesus Is The Son of God.

4.) Jesus is Not The Son of God.

5.) Jesus Is The Saviour of mankind through His Atoning Blood.

6.) Salvation through Jesus is a lie and people must earn their own way to heaven.

7.) There will be an eternal destiny in either Heaven or Hell.

8.) Heaven and Hell Do Not exist.

9.) Mankind became separated from God through disobedience and subsequent transgression of God's Laws based upon the Ten Commandments.

10.) The Ten Commandments don't apply to mankind at all and can be disregarded. Man makes his own laws.


If God Exists, then Creation by a Supreme Being Is TRUE and Only The Creator-God (no human) can reveal the Truth to mankind. Would God hold back The Truth about His Existence from the people He created?

If God does not exist, why is it that most humans have an inner desire to seek and worship a Supreme Deity while others make a conscious effort to find explanations to push the thought out of their intellectual mind and by doing so justify their denial?

No human can know the Truth unless Truth is Revealed; and,
There Is Only One Truth.

starman300m
I should be able assume then that there is only one Revealed religion in the world, and yet I can not.

If God chooses to reveal himself to mankind, why is it that there is so much disagreement in what is revealed? Even among one sect, such as Christianity, there is disagrement.

Why is it that God is not capable of revealing himself uniformly, to the faithful?

Why does he allow interference in the message and Truth?

There is only one truth, and that truth is reality.
Some see it, some do not.

starman300m
I should be able assume then that there is only one Revealed religion in the world, and yet I can not.

You have asked some very good and fair questions; Here are some answers:

From One Revealed Truth, man's reluctance to accept that Truth has resulted in the formation of numerous religious ideologies based upon half-truths and deception and which are interjected into teachings which feed the ulterior motives of misguided religious leaders. The Bible explains that religious deception rules this world through the influence of God's enemy, Satan, who is described as being the "god" of this world. Satan effectively uses "religion" through false prophets and false teachers who entrap people and keep them from being Free from truly knowing God.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:3-6)

If God chooses to reveal himself to mankind, why is it that there is so much disagreement in what is revealed? Even among one sect, such as Christianity, there is disagrement.

God has revealed Himself to mankind from the very beginning of Creation. The disagreement is due to man's inability to follow God's very basic instructions of trusting His Guidance and, instead, mankind has developed many religious paths that play to people's whims and comfort zones and leads them into the path of error and away from the Truth of God.

Why is it that God is not capable of revealing himself uniformly, to the faithful? Because people do not have a uniform concept of who God really is due to their plain acceptance of some religious ideology/dogma and upbringing that has been imposed upon them and that has evolved from half-truths.

Why does he allow interference in the message and Truth?

We live in a world that became rebellious against God and chose not to accept His Truth from the very beginning. Then, through various philosophies, mankind took alternate routes to explain things for and about God which has resulted in the interference of His Initial Message. That is why many people are influenced by the mixed messages, religious deceptions and half-truths.

There is only one truth, and that truth is reality.
Some see it, some do not.

OK - but, in your opinion: What is the reality regarding God and His Message of sending His Son to forgive, reconcile and save repentant mankind through Faith in Him alone?

Jesus proclaimed: "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

You have asked some very good and fair questions; Here are some answers:

From One Revealed Truth, man's reluctance to accept that Truth has resulted in the formation of numerous religious ideologies based upon half-truths and deception and which are interjected into teachings which feed the ulterior motives of misguided religious leaders. The Bible explains that religious deception rules this world through the influence of God's enemy, Satan, who is described as being the "god" of this world. Satan effectively uses "religion" through false prophets and false teachers who entrap people and keep them from being Free from truly knowing God.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:3-6)



God has revealed Himself to mankind from the very beginning of Creation. The disagreement is due to man's inability to follow God's very basic instructions of trusting His Guidance and, instead, mankind has developed many religious paths that play to people's whims and comfort zones and leads them into the path of error and away from the Truth of God.
The revelation of God did not start with Judism, or Christianity.
The Gods of Hindu predate Judiasm.
Why would God allow an imposter to reveal himself first, than wait thousands of years to reveal himself to the people of Abraham?
There are revelations of God that predate Judism, besides Hinduism.






OK - but, in your opinion: What is the reality regarding God and His Message of sending His Son to forgive, reconcile and save repentant mankind through Faith in Him alone?
My opinion has no affect on reality.
Reality is that which is.

starman300m
I should be able assume then that there is only one Revealed religion in the world, and yet I can not.

[QUOTE]If God chooses to reveal himself to mankind, why is it that there is so much disagreement in what is revealed? Even among one sect, such as Christianity, there is disagrement.

Cause people are sinful that's why.

Why is it that God is not capable of revealing himself uniformly, to the faithful?

He does. "The heavens declare the glory of the Lord". He also reveals himself in the Bible.

Why does he allow interference in the message and Truth?

There is only one truth, and that truth is reality.
Some see it, some do not.[/

He "allows" men to be free. Factor in the sinful nature and whamo things are not perfect.

[quote=BeHereNow;3915889]starman300m
I should be able assume then that there is only one Revealed religion in the world, and yet I can not.



Cause people are sinful that's why.



He does. "The heavens declare the glory of the Lord". He also reveals himself in the Bible.



He "allows" men to be free. Factor in the sinful nature and whamo!, things are not perfect.

I agreed with your entire post, however, the last statement explains alot, ie., why people have doubts about the ways/methods Our Lord operates.

It's called Free Will. He gives you the option: Your way, or, His Way. Based upon what you've read(or not read) in His Book, with whom you've talked with about it(or not), He has given you the choice.

Which path will you follow? It's your option. He gave you as much; what will you do in return?

The revelation of God did not start with Judism, or Christianity.
The Gods of Hindu predate Judiasm.
Why would God allow an imposter to reveal himself first, than wait thousands of years to reveal himself to the people of Abraham?
There are revelations of God that predate Judism, besides Hinduism.

My opinion has no affect on reality.
Reality is that which is.

The reality is that God's revelation to mankind began with Adam and Eve, the very first humans He created. This was way before any kind of "religion" was established. That is the period in which mankind chose to disobey God's warnings of what not to do; again, way before any other form of religion came along.

God also revealed at that time that He was the Only God and Creator to be worshipped and obeyed.

Enter the deceptions through Satan's subtle lies through religious half-truths and now you have "other gods" that clamor to be worshipped. It was Satan's pride that caused him to claim that he could be "as the Most High" and, thus, Satan was able to convince others to believe his lies rather than the Truth that God revealed. Thus, false religions popped that preached various "gods" and forms of deities that people were to pay honor to. Along the way, God chose certain people whom He knew to be sincere in wanting to know Truth. Abraham was one of those individuals whom God chose to reveal His Plan and method for the Salvation of mankind.

BTW: Although Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were expelled from the Garden of Eden, God still revealed His compassion and mercy for them as they found themselves to be shamefully naked before God's presence. God then took "skins" and clothed them. So, it appears that the very first method for God to reconcile mankind's disobedience was through a living sacrifice that God made in order to procure the skins used for clothing Adam and Eve.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)

This was also a foreshadow of God's prophetic plan in having to make a living sacrifice to cover the sins of mankind through the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus) as the only acceptable sacrifice. It is through faith in Christ and His atoning Blood that we can receive forgiveness, reconciliation and direct relationship with God and His Promise of Eternal Life - not by what we did but by what God did.

That's why There Is Only One Truth!

Let's try evaluating Truth whereby There Is Only One Truth to the following:

1.) God Exists.

2.) God Does Not Exist.

3.) Jesus Is The Son of God.

4.) Jesus is Not The Son of God.

5.) Jesus Is The Saviour of mankind through His Atoning Blood.

6.) Salvation through Jesus is a lie and people must earn their own way to heaven.

7.) There will be an eternal destiny in either Heaven or Hell.

8.) Heaven and Hell Do Not exist.

9.) Mankind became separated from God through disobedience and subsequent transgression of God's Laws based upon the Ten Commandments.

10.) The Ten Commandments don't apply to mankind at all and can be disregarded. Man makes his own laws.


If God Exists, then Creation by a Supreme Being Is TRUE and Only The Creator-God (no human) can reveal the Truth to mankind. Would God hold back The Truth about His Existence from the people He created?

If God does not exist, why is it that most humans have an inner desire to seek and worship a Supreme Deity while others make a conscious effort to find explanations to push the thought out of their intellectual mind and by doing so justify their denial?

No human can know the Truth unless Truth is Revealed; and,
There Is Only One Truth.Let's see, throw out the even numbered ones and you're good to go. :yay:

The reality is that God's revelation to mankind began with Adam and Eve, the very first humans He created. This was way before any kind of "religion" was established. That is the period in which mankind chose to disobey God's warnings of what not to do; again, way before any other form of religion came along.

God also revealed at that time that He was the Only God and Creator to be worshipped and obeyed.

Enter the deceptions through Satan's subtle lies through religious half-truths and now you have "other gods" that clamor to be worshipped. It was Satan's pride that caused him to claim that he could be "as the Most High" and, thus, Satan was able to convince others to believe his lies rather than the Truth that God revealed. Thus, false religions popped that preached various "gods" and forms of deities that people were to pay honor to. Along the way, God chose certain people whom He knew to be sincere in wanting to know Truth. Abraham was one of those individuals whom God chose to reveal His Plan and method for the Salvation of mankind.

BTW: Although Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were expelled from the Garden of Eden, God still revealed His compassion and mercy for them as they found themselves to be shamefully naked before God's presence. God then took "skins" and clothed them. So, it appears that the very first method for God to reconcile mankind's disobedience was through a living sacrifice that God made in order to procure the skins used for clothing Adam and Eve.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)

This was also a foreshadow of God's prophetic plan in having to make a living sacrifice to cover the sins of mankind through the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus) as the only acceptable sacrifice. It is through faith in Christ and His atoning Blood that we can receive forgiveness, reconciliation and direct relationship with God and His Promise of Eternal Life - not by what we did but by what God did.

Your reply is based on the myths and folklore of one particular religion.
If you believe the Bible is true, then the Bilble is true.

The Sumerian myth of Enki, and the Gilgamesh epic predate the story of Eden, and have amazing similarities.

Historically, Hinduism is considered the oldest religion in the world, it dates back, perhaps, to prehistoric times (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001469.html).

Thie Bible itself tells us there were other religions, as the message of the OT is that of One God, in opposition of other peoples who worshiped many gods.

Historically, there is no doubt that Hinduism is older than Judism.

If you deny that, the Truth is not in you.

Historically, there is no doubt that Hinduism is older than Judism.

If you deny that, the Truth is not in you.

No problem. I agree, Hinduism is older than Judaism but then again Hinduism was not the only religion that began 4000+ years ago. There were various pagan religions that spawned from various beliefs and disagreements within those beliefs. However, the Bible declares that these religions were given over to the worship of multiple gods including Satan worship. Satan being the perpetrator and father of lies and religious deception has always wanted to have mankind worship him in one form or another.

We also agree that God's Biblical message is that He is the sole Creator of mankind and beside Him there is no other. This was the Main Message from the start of Creation which of course was proclaimed prior to the Great Flood and long before Hinduism was even thought of. Hinduism developed after the Great Flood and it is one of various religions that introduced other gods and other ways by which mankind could reach a destiny of "ultimate perfection"

The Truth in the Reality of Hinduism is that no one ever really achieves perfection through "good works" because there are so many snags that prevent Hindus from ever knowing how far along and how close they are to attaining Nirvana. There is no guarantee of true Salvation if Hindus must keep on evolving through the belief of having to go through stages of reincarnation. At what point do they reach the ultimate reality? Hindus do not even know.

By contrast, God has Promised and assured the opportunity for mankind to attain Salvation and Eternal Life - not by the "good works" that mankind strives to achieve, but by His Gracy and Mercy for anyone who so desires and is willing to trust in the Atoning Blood of Christ for the remission of sin once and for all. The invitation has been made by God but the step of acceptance of God's Plan of Salvation is upon each individual whether to accept it or not. The empowering Holy Spirit of God reveals that Truth and is then sent to indwell all who believe and trust in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. It is that Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are the Children of the True God of Creation.

The result is that a believer's life is changed whereby his/her spirit takes on a new life that sincerely seeks to praise and worship God in the here and now and whereby we know that our lives have become personally reconciled with God. This occurs through the born-again experience that Jesus spoke about.

Jesus said ... "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)

No problem. I agree, Hinduism is older than Judaism but then again Hinduism was not the only religion that began 4000+ years ago. There were various pagan religions that spawned from various beliefs and disagreements within those beliefs. However, the Bible declares that these religions were given over to the worship of multiple gods including Satan worship. Satan being the perpetrator and father of lies and religious deception has always wanted to have mankind worship him in one form or another.

We also agree that God's Biblical message is that He is the sole Creator of mankind and beside Him there is no other. This was the Main Message from the start of Creation which of course was proclaimed prior to the Great Flood and long before Hinduism was even thought of. Hinduism developed after the Great Flood and it is one of various religions that introduced other gods and other ways by which mankind could reach a destiny of "ultimate perfection"

The Truth in the Reality of Hinduism is that no one ever really achieves perfection through "good works" because there are so many snags that prevent Hindus from ever knowing how far along and how close they are to attaining Nirvana. There is no guarantee of true Salvation if Hindus must keep on evolving through the belief of having to go through stages of reincarnation. At what point do they reach the ultimate reality? Hindus do not even know.

By contrast, God has Promised and assured the opportunity for mankind to attain Salvation and Eternal Life - not by the "good works" that mankind strives to achieve, but by His Gracy and Mercy for anyone who so desires and is willing to trust in the Atoning Blood of Christ for the remission of sin once and for all. The invitation has been made by God but the step of acceptance of God's Plan of Salvation is upon each individual whether to accept it or not. The empowering Holy Spirit of God reveals that Truth and is then sent to indwell all who believe and trust in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. It is that Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are the Children of the True God of Creation.

The result is that a believer's life is changed whereby his/her spirit takes on a new life that sincerely seeks to praise and worship God in the here and now and whereby we know that our lives have become personally reconciled with God. This occurs through the born-again experience that Jesus spoke about.

Jesus said ... "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)

We now agree that Hinduism is older than Judaism. This is good.
So I refer you back to my previous question, why would god allow Satan to lead mankind go towards a false religion even before the start of Judaism?

Five hundred years before the birth of baby Jesus there was born a man, one Siddhartha Gautama. Siddhartha was born in a nation that never heard of the Torah, never heard of Moses, Isaac, or Abraham. Never heard of the prophesy of a messiah.

He sought this ultimate spiritual perfection you mention, and looked to the religions around him, in particular Hinduism, as that was most common. He tried all of the methods taught by man to attain perfection, and found he could not. He was told that he would have to be reborn into new bodies, and through good works climb the ladder to ultimate perfection. He saw the folly and hopeless of this, and meditated on the consequences of such beliefs. During such a meditation he realized that this was folly, and that death and rebirth was not necessary for spiritual perfection. He realized that every individual, regardless of his status at birth, was capable of spiritual perfection within his lifetime, and that this would lead to right actions. Right actions did not lead to perfection, perfection lead to right actions.

He began teaching his new truths to the people who would listen, and they called him the Enlightened One, The Buddha.

All of this five hundred years before the birth of Jesus, in a nation that never hear of any of the teachings of Judaism.
A nation that God choose not to make his presence known.

What are we to think of this nation (group of nations, actually) that never had the opportunity to hear the message of the Torah, and this man who taught that good works were not necessary for spiritual salvation?

We now agree that Hinduism is older than Judaism. This is good.
So I refer you back to my previous question, why would god allow Satan to lead mankind go towards a false religion even before the start of Judaism?

Life's action was put into play at the Beginning of Creation of mankind on earth. Previous to mankind, there was the spiritual existence where God created His host of angels and various orders of angelic beings. Satan was one of the orders of beings who took upon himself pride and arrogance into believing that he could be as God and ultimately convinced one-third of God's angels into an attempted mutiny and struggle for power with God. Satan lost but was not destroyed. Satan and his demonic minions (fallen angels) are upon this earth and making all effort to influence, deceive and keep people from worshipping God in Truth.

Five hundred years before the birth of baby Jesus there was born a man, one Siddhartha Gautama. Siddhartha was born in a nation that never heard of the Torah, never heard of Moses, Isaac, or Abraham. Never heard of the prophesy of a messiah.

He sought this ultimate spiritual perfection you mention, and looked to the religions around him, in particular Hinduism, as that was most common. He tried all of the methods taught by man to attain perfection, and found he could not. He was told that he would have to be reborn into new bodies, and through good works climb the ladder to ultimate perfection. He saw the folly and hopeless of this, and meditated on the consequences of such beliefs. During such a meditation he realized that this was folly, and that death and rebirth was not necessary for spiritual perfection. He realized that every individual, regardless of his status at birth, was capable of spiritual perfection within his lifetime, and that this would lead to right actions. Right actions did not lead to perfection, perfection lead to right actions.

He began teaching his new truths to the people who would listen, and they called him the Enlightened One, The Buddha.

All of this five hundred years before the birth of Jesus, in a nation that never hear of any of the teachings of Judaism.
A nation that God choose not to make his presence known.

What are we to think of this nation (group of nations, actually) that never had the opportunity to hear the message of the Torah, and this man who taught that good works were not necessary for spiritual salvation?

While Buddha is revered as a great "spiritual leader", his teachings still do not guarantee eternal salvation in the way that the True God of Salvation offers. Buddha still taught that one must "evolve" into spiritual enlightenment through a process of several attempts and lifetimes as needed (reincarnation).

Buddhism still boils down to one's attempted personal achievement (spiritual and in harmony with the earth) that must be accomplished until you "get it right". But then what? There is no definitive explanation of "Nirvana" other than you attain the level of being set free of the existence of all things negative. There is no existence of an Eternal Life with the Creator God. In fact, Buddhism really has no concept of a God-being, but teaches that Nirvana is the ultimate achievement accomplished by personal efforts whereby one can rise to the status of a "buddha".

I would consider Buddha as the "Tony Robbins" of his time. A motivational teacher who can only teach you what things to do with a convincing enough promise that if you do such things, you can expect certain achievements. Still there is no guarantee! Nirvana is still the anticipated result of achievement by "good works" which are "perfected" through various stages of reincarnation and not by trusting in the Grace of God as the Holy Bible teaches and as taught from the Beginning of Creation.

Life's action was put into play at the Beginning of Creation of mankind on earth. Previous to mankind, there was the spiritual existence where God created His host of angels and various orders of angelic beings. Satan was one of the orders of beings who took upon himself pride and arrogance into believing that he could be as God and ultimately convinced one-third of God's angels into an attempted mutiny and struggle for power with God. Satan lost but was not destroyed. Satan and his demonic minions (fallen angels) are upon this earth and making all effort to influence, deceive and keep people from worshipping God in Truth.



While Buddha is revered as a great "spiritual leader", his teachings still do not guarantee eternal salvation in the way that the True God of Salvation offers. Buddha still taught that one must "evolve" into spiritual enlightenment through a process of several attempts and lifetimes as needed (reincarnation).

Buddhism still boils down to one's attempted personal achievement (spiritual and in harmony with the earth) that must be accomplished until you "get it right". But then what? There is no definitive explanation of "Nirvana" other than you attain the level of being set free of the existence of all things negative. There is no existence of an Eternal Life with the Creator God. In fact, Buddhism really has no concept of a God-being, but teaches that Nirvana is the ultimate achievement accomplished by personal efforts whereby one can rise to the status of a "buddha".

I would consider Buddha as the "Tony Robbins" of his time. A motivational teacher who can only teach you what things to do with a convincing enough promise that if you do such things, you can expect certain achievements. Still there is no guarantee! Nirvana is still the anticipated result of achievement by "good works" which are "perfected" through various stages of reincarnation and not by trusting in the Grace of God as the Holy Bible teaches and as taught from the Beginning of Creation.
Buddha NEVER taught reincarnation , quite the opposite. he taught reincarnation was NOT necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently you can not read what I wrote, and you are misinformed about the Buddha and his teachings.
I'm not surprised.

You still did not answer my question "why would god allow Satan to lead mankind go towards a false religion even before the start of Judaism?"

READ (http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandrebirth/a/reincarnation.htm)

Buddha NEVER taught reincarnation , quite the opposite. he taught reincarnation was NOT necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently you can not read what I wrote, and you are misinformed about the Buddha and his teachings.
I'm not surprised.

Read All About It:

Similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism
On Reincarnation
 Buddhism : Buddhism believes in the process of reincarnation based on deeds of the present life.

 Hinduism : Hinduism also believes that everyone is a part of an impersonal world and therefore, one's soul reincarnates into another body of any being, based on the deeds of the present life.

On Salvation
 Buddhism : One has to work for salvation oneself and therefore, cannot blame others for the same. The salvation depends on the good deeds of a person.

 Hinduism : In Hinduism also, one attains salvation as per one's own fate and deeds. There are four paths or four yogas to attain salvation : Karma Yoga - Way of good works, Bhakti Yoga - Way of love and faith, Jnana Yoga - Way of knowledge, and Raja Yoga - Way of salvation.

On Enlightenment
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both of them believe that there are many paths to attain enlightenment such as overcoming through your feelings and desires and controlling over the six conscious senses.

On Sufferings
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both the schools of thought believe that excessive attachment to things and people in the physical world causes pain and suffering. Therefore, we must get ourselves free from the illusions of 'Maya' or worldly desires.

Yogic Practices
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both of them gives an emphasis on the practice of meditation and other forms of yoga, which not only helps one to concentrate on the truth of life, but also facilitates the path of enlightenment and liberation.

Tantric Practices
 Buddhism : Buddhism has a major sect, 'Tantrayana', which is mainly based upon the tantric practices.

 Hinduism : Tantric practices are also prevalent in Hinduism, especially among the worshippers of the Goddess Kali and the god Shiva. Likewise Hinduism, the Mahayana Buddhism believes that the original teachings of the Buddha are from the Hindu practices, including prayers and the concept of God(even the Buddha as God in all His incarnations). Mahayana Buddhism also introduces the idea of (temporary) heavens and hells.

Differences Between Hinduism And Buddhism
On God
 Buddhism : The original Buddhist doctrine does not entail any godly figures, though the later Buddhist sects introduced some Godly figures.

 Hinduism : The Hindus believe in 300,000 Gods.

Source:
Buddhism & Hinduism,Comparitive Study of Buddhism & Hinduism,Compare Contrast Buddhism & Hinduism (http://www.buddhist-tourism.com/buddhism/religion/buddhism-hinduism.html)



You still did not answer my question "why would god allow Satan to lead mankind go towards a false religion even before the start of Judaism?"

From the Beginning of Creation, mankind was given free-will; the opportunity to choose right from wrong, obey God or disobey God. It is through the decisions made by one's free-will that reveals whom you choose to believe and obey - God's Truth that leads you to Him or the "perceived truths" which are really religious deceptions that lead you into other paths and away from the true God of Creation and Eternal Salvation.

[QUOTE=Penn;3916206]

Since God has already chosen who will be in his Grace, it doesnt matter what you do

God gives everyone the free-will to choose right from wrong and to obey Him or disobey Him.

So happens that God has you pegged down to know exactly what choice you are going to make - On Your Own!

Thus He receives those who willingly wished to repent and chose to seek Him for Salvation and grieves for those who remained in unbelief and did not take Him at His Word that He sent a Saviour for them.

Jesus is our Eternal Life Line and Saviour who reaches out to all mankind to present God's Mercy, Forgiveness and Salvation . It is your choice to reach out to accept His help. God can only act upon what you choose to believe about Jesus.

[quote=Penn;3916206]

Since God has already chosen who will be in his Grace, it doesnt matter what you do

Ready for a shakeup? It's plain and simple: God may very well know your path, however - YOU - do not.

You can choose to follow His Word, or, you can choose to follow another path.

It's still YOUR choice. Either you believe in Him, or you don't, it's up to you.

You won't find out until the day you pass away; do you want to take that chance?

[QUOTE=Starman3000m;3918401]
You may have the free will to decide Pepperoni or Combination Pizza, but that isnt the discussion.

God determined long before the beginning of time who would be in his Graces.

It does not matter what you do, nor what you believe, God has already decided whether or not you'll spend time with him in the Afterlife.

For refrence see:
Romans 9:11
Romans 9:16
Romans 9:18
Romans 9:21
Ephesians 1:4-5
2 Timothy 1:9
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Revelations 13:8
Ecclesiastes 7:13
So claim all you want that you have Free Will to believe in him, God doesnt care, he's already decided your fate long before Man was fighting for the same meal with the T-Rex's (for the ID'ers).

You make the argument of a Calvinist; those who believe that God has already chosen whom He wants to save and whom He wants to send to hell.
Sounds like a pretty unfair God to me if that's the case - but that is not the case when you consider the Truth:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Yes, Jesus did choose (hand-picked) His disciples whom He knew from the foundation of the world that they would be available to become His disciples. There are instances in the New Testament where Paul makes reference to their being "pre-destined" for God's purpose, but in the case of humanity as a whole, all mankind is given a choice - otherwise why would Jesus have to shed His Blood as an Atonement for mankind?

Maybe the Calvinists have it right? It seems the Verses cited state otherwise.

Maybe Jesus sacrifice was for something else?

If the Calvinists are right, that means God created you to be a "Christ-punching Atheist" (non-believer) as you describe yourself to be.

If Jesus is right, that means He shed His Blood as an Atonement to give you a chance for you to decide whether you want to be saved or not through His Help and not by anything you can do other than choose to trust Him.

"I Am the Way, The Truth and The Life; no man can come unto The Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Which makes the discussions i've had on here with you Blessed :killingme

:killingme

Nucklesack, you have been a real hoot. Which proves God has a sense of humor!

If the Calvinists are right, that means God created you to be a "Christ-punching Atheist" (non-believer) as you describe yourself to be.

If Jesus is right, that means He shed His Blood as an Atonement to give you a chance for you to decide whether you want to be saved or not through His Help and not by anything you can do other than choose to trust Him.

"I Am the Way, The Truth and The Life; no man can come unto The Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Whoa! I read that, and felt a strong emotion fall upon my spirit!

It's not the first time I've read that passage, but taken into context with your prior sentences in that post, I got slammed with the gravity of what that means!

Thank You! :howdy:

Whoa! I read that, and felt a strong emotion fall upon my spirit!

It's not the first time I've read that passage, but taken into context with your prior sentences in that post, I got slammed with the gravity of what that means!

Thank You! :howdy:

:howdy:

Yep, that's the neat thing of how God works in our lives to remind us of His Guidance and Love for us.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
(John 14:26-27)

But doesnt what Jesus proclaim run counter to what God proclaimed through the Apostles? (as cited in the verses)

No, because, as mentioned in my earlier post, the Apostles were the ones who were "predestined" to carry out the mission that God had ordained for them to do in this world - ordained to spread the Gospel Message of God's Forgiveness and Eternal Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus. Remember John 3:16 ?

It was Jesus who proclaimed that the destiny and mission of the Apostles, including that of Judas Iscariot, were all part of God's Plan:

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:68-71)

But what does that have to do with one Apostle stating God has already chosen those that will be in his Graces verses a different Apostle claiming Jesus said you become saved by believing in him?What does God use as a determining criteria? Since we've already established that time is not linear for God (since He created time), and that therefore what you choose to do is seen even though it's still your choice, is it possible this simply means that what you choose to do is what made God's determination?

Sorry let me revise this:

Doesnt what Jesus proclaimed, per the Apostles, run counter to what God proclaimed, per the Apostles? (as cited in the verses)

(With the exception of the verse on "The Book of Life", the context of the cited verses you refer to are conversations or written letters between the Apostles - commenting on how they were personally chosen (predestined) in Christ to fulfill God's Plan.

(Same response as before)

No, because, as mentioned in my earlier post, the Apostles were the ones who were "predestined" to carry out the mission that God had ordained for them to do in this world - ordained to spread the Gospel Message of God's Forgiveness and Eternal Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus. Remember John 3:16 ?

It was Jesus who proclaimed that the destiny and mission of the Apostles, including that of Judas Iscariot, were all part of God's Plan:

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:68-71)

You established it, not We

And God has stated he chose before the beginning of time, you need to ask him his criteria.

Yes, from the foundation of the world, God chose to give mankind free-will whereby you make choices on your own. As a loving Father, God gives advice, makes suggestions, then will proceed with what you choose for your eternal destiny:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19)

You established it, not We

And God has stated he chose before the beginning of time, you need to ask him his criteria.

So, your assumptions are therefore invalid? I'm glad you see that now.

that is not what the verse state, doing so is heresy isnt it?

Not really
Basically, it's like the choice given in the Garden of Eden. Choose from the Tree of Life and receive Eternal Life or Choose from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and receive death.

God is saying that He's presenting you with a choice but then He suggests which choice to make: It's up to you to decide.

Revelations 13:8 is pretty damning for the Free-Will argument

You have to understand that initially, names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but then they are "blotted out" of the Book.

Since names can't be blotted out unless they are written in that only means one thing: A person chose to cancel the invitation to receive the Salvation offered through the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus).

God foreknew who would accept and who would reject that invitation through their own free-will.

We read the verses differently. You read them and see it as God knew your choices. When I read them, and it states God chose, then its already determined.

God is a Father to His Creation who has the distinct Wisdom and Knowledge of knowing what your ulitmate choice will be - even after being warned of impending danger. Doesn't mean that He chose to lead you into that danger but that after much warning you chose to disregard the warnings.

Example: Does a human father will for their child to ride a bicycle into the street and be struck by a car or does a human father continually warn the child of the consequences for not being careful about riding into the street? If the child rides into the street and is struck, whose choice was it?

Read All About It:

Similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism
On Reincarnation
 Buddhism : Buddhism believes in the process of reincarnation based on deeds of the present life.

 Hinduism : Hinduism also believes that everyone is a part of an impersonal world and therefore, one's soul reincarnates into another body of any being, based on the deeds of the present life.

On Salvation
 Buddhism : One has to work for salvation oneself and therefore, cannot blame others for the same. The salvation depends on the good deeds of a person.

 Hinduism : In Hinduism also, one attains salvation as per one's own fate and deeds. There are four paths or four yogas to attain salvation : Karma Yoga - Way of good works, Bhakti Yoga - Way of love and faith, Jnana Yoga - Way of knowledge, and Raja Yoga - Way of salvation.

On Enlightenment
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both of them believe that there are many paths to attain enlightenment such as overcoming through your feelings and desires and controlling over the six conscious senses.

On Sufferings
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both the schools of thought believe that excessive attachment to things and people in the physical world causes pain and suffering. Therefore, we must get ourselves free from the illusions of 'Maya' or worldly desires.

Yogic Practices
 Buddhism and Hinduism : Both of them gives an emphasis on the practice of meditation and other forms of yoga, which not only helps one to concentrate on the truth of life, but also facilitates the path of enlightenment and liberation.

Tantric Practices
 Buddhism : Buddhism has a major sect, 'Tantrayana', which is mainly based upon the tantric practices.

 Hinduism : Tantric practices are also prevalent in Hinduism, especially among the worshippers of the Goddess Kali and the god Shiva. Likewise Hinduism, the Mahayana Buddhism believes that the original teachings of the Buddha are from the Hindu practices, including prayers and the concept of God(even the Buddha as God in all His incarnations). Mahayana Buddhism also introduces the idea of (temporary) heavens and hells.

Differences Between Hinduism And Buddhism
On God
 Buddhism : The original Buddhist doctrine does not entail any godly figures, though the later Buddhist sects introduced some Godly figures.

 Hinduism : The Hindus believe in 300,000 Gods.

Source:
Buddhism & Hinduism,Comparitive Study of Buddhism & Hinduism,Compare Contrast Buddhism & Hinduism (http://www.buddhist-tourism.com/buddhism/religion/buddhism-hinduism.html)





From the Beginning of Creation, mankind was given free-will; the opportunity to choose right from wrong, obey God or disobey God. It is through the decisions made by one's free-will that reveals whom you choose to believe and obey - God's Truth that leads you to Him or the "perceived truths" which are really religious deceptions that lead you into other paths and away from the true God of Creation and Eternal Salvation.
As you should know, there are many similarities between Zoroastrianism and Judeo/Christian beliefs:

R.C. Zaehner, The Dawn & Twilight of Zoroastrianism: (http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/zor7.htm)
P. 51-52
"An almost exact parallel to this solution of evil is to be found in the Manual of Discipline, perhaps the most interesting document of the Dead Sea sect of Qumran. That Judaism was deeply influenced by Zoroastrianism during and after the Babylonian captivity can scarcely be questioned, and the extraordinary likeness between the Dead Sea text and the Gathic conception of the nature and origin of evil, as we understand it, would seem to point to direct borrowing on the Jewish side."

P. 57
"Zarathushtra's doctrine of rewards and punishment, of an eternity of bliss and an eternity of woe allotted to good and evil men in another life beyond the grave is so strikingly similar to Christian teaching that we cannot fail to ask whether here at least there is not a direct influence at work. The answer is surely `Yes', for the similarities are so great and the historical context is so neatly apposite that it would be carrying skepticism altogether too far to refuse to draw the obvious conclusion."

P. 58
"Thus from the moment the Jews first made contact with the Iranians they took over the typical Zoroastrian doctrine of an individual afterlife in which rewards are to be enjoyed and punishments endured. This Zoroastrian hope gained ever surer ground during the inter-testamentary period, and by the time of Christ it was upheld by the Pharisees, whose very name some scholars have interpreted as meaning `Persian', that is, the sect most open to Persian influence."

There are so many similarities, I have to wonder why you choose Christianity. Wait, let me guess, you choose it because that is what your parents are. It is that way with sheep, they follow the leader that is closest.

~ ~ ~

Concering Buddhism and reincarnation, this may clear your mind of your false beliefs:

A gross misunderstanding of about Buddhism exists today, especially in the notion of reincarnation. (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/reincarnation.htm) The common misunderstanding is that a person has led countless previous lives, usually as an animal, but somehow in this life he is born as a human being and in the next life he will be reborn as an animal, depending on the kind of life he has lived.

This misunderstanding arises because people usually do not know-how to read the sutras or sacred writings. It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.
Herein lies our problem. A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality. However, if we learn to go beyond or transcend the parables and myths, we will be able to understand the truth.
People will say "If such is the case why not speak directly so that we will be able to come to an immediate grasp of the truth?" This statement is understandable, but truth is often inexpressible. [Ed comment: we as human beings are limited in understanding "Buddha Knowledge". We cannot speak TRUTH, only words ABOUT Truth] Thus, writers and teachers have often resorted to the language of the imagination to lead the reader from a lower to a higher truth. The doctrine of reincarnation is often understood in this light.

~ ~ ~
There is no consistent notion of the afterlife or salvation in Buddhism. (http://www.patheos.com/Library/Buddhism/Beliefs/Afterlife-and-Salvation.html) It varies according to country, era, and individual perspective.
Salvation in early Buddhism was nirvana, the extinguishing of the all karma that constitutes the self.
~ ~ ~ ~

You confuse the teaching of the Buddha, with Buddhism as it is practiced.

In Christianity there are many beliefs and practices that are not teachings of Jesus.
Jesus never taught that immersion was the only true baptism, yet many Christians practice that.
Jesus never taught that only adults could be baptized, yet many Christians practice that.

Jesus did teach that riches lead a person away from God, yet many Christains practice Prosperity Christianity.

All Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God, and yet they cannot agree on what the words mean.

~ ~ ~ ~
I ask you why God never revealed himself to half the world, before and after the birth of Christ, and your reply is that man was given free-will.
Free-will to reject a God they never heard of?
Are you serious?
Do you think that is an answer?
Free-will to accept or reject a God they were never exposed to, who never revealed himself?

Has it occured to you that a god you have never heard of, has given you free-will to accept or reject him, as you worship false idols?

As you should know, there are many similarities between Zoroastrianism and Judeo/Christian beliefs:

[URL="http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/zor7.htm"][COLOR="Blue"][U]R.C. ~ ~ ~ ~
I ask you why God never revealed himself to half the world, before and after the birth of Christ, and your reply is that man was given free-will.
Free-will to reject a God they never heard of?
Are you serious?
Do you think that is an answer?
Free-will to accept or reject a God they were never exposed to, who never revealed himself?

Has it occured to you that a god you have never heard of, has given you free-will to accept or reject him, as you worship false idols?


Your question was answered. "The heavens declare the glory of God". The choice of acceptance of the creator is in the hands of the creature.

It is not the "revelation" that seperates us it is sin.

I ask you why God never revealed himself to half the world, before and after the birth of Christ, and your reply is that man was given free-will.
Free-will to reject a God they never heard of?
Are you serious?
Do you think that is an answer?
Free-will to accept or reject a God they were never exposed to, who never revealed himself?

Has it occured to you that a god you have never heard of, has given you free-will to accept or reject him, as you worship false idols?

As mentioned from the start, God had revealed Himself to mankind through Divine Intervention including audible instructions given first to Adam and Eve.
The Middle East region was the initial pivotal point of mankind's appearance on earth and where civilization was centrally located.

Prior to Judaism, people's belief systems grew steadily away from belief in One God. The Bible account tells of the time when mankind continually disregarded the Authority and belief in the One Creator God and took upon themselves varying philosophies and pagan religions to the point that they desired to reach the heavens through the construction of the Tower of Babel.
You may be aware of the account. That is when God brought confusion to the folly of mankind's attempt to reach heaven by causing the people to begin speaking in various languages whereby they were unable to understand one another. The building project stops and the people are dispersed and go their separate ways from that central point of civilization to distant lands across the earth. Thus, they had always been aware of the One Creator God but chose, through Satanic and religious deceptions, to create their own religions and methods of worship.

God chose Abraham to once again make His revelation to mankind in order to bring people to the awareness that He is the Only God of Creation. God revealed that through Abraham many nations of people would form. From that point on, mankind would be reminded of God's existence by way of oral testimony. This passed on through the generations of Prophets and Patriarchs of the Bible whereby God would constantly convey messages to the people in regard to turning from idols and sinful ways and calling them to place trust in Him.

So you see, the people that you claim had never been told about God had been told about God since the first day of Creation, yet, they chose to go in their own paths of religious and philosophical beliefs. Many false teachers and false prophets also still continued to appear on the scene whereby people were religiously deceived and kept from having a personal relationship with the True Creator God that He wants to have with all mankind.

As far as the witness and testimony of Jesus Atonement, it was clear that mankind would never satisfy the requirements of perfection because of their sinful nature and basic disobedience and unbelief. God still loved the world enough to offer a method of reconciliation for anyone who wants to be reconciled with God - not by any "good deeds" and "religious works" that they were capable of doing, but by the Grace and Mercy of God's Kindness in offering His Divine Forgiveness - just for the asking and belief that Jesus' shed Blood atones for your own sins and transgressions against the Righteous God of Creation.

Did Buddha teach that mankind has a sinful nature?

starman3000m
So you see, the people that you claim had never been told about God had been told about God since the first day of Creation, yet, they chose to go in their own paths of religious and philosophical beliefs.
You really have gone off the deep end, haven't you.
Completely lost touch with reality.

Don't know the truth from the fantasy.

Most advanced case of relligious delusion I have ever encounted.

If you were my neighbor, I'd move.

You really have gone off the deep end, haven't you.
Completely lost touch with reality.

Don't know the truth from the fantasy.

Most advanced case of relligious delusion I have ever encounted.

If you were my neighbor, I'd move.

:killingme

The revelation of God did not start with Judism, or Christianity.
The Gods of Hindu predate Judiasm.
Why would God allow an imposter to reveal himself first, than wait thousands of years to reveal himself to the people of Abraham?
There are revelations of God that predate Judism, besides Hinduism.



My opinion has no affect on reality.
Reality is that which is.

Your right, man has always been superstitious and blamed anything he couldn’t explain on unknown deity, but that’s not God, that’s little g gods. There is no God other than that in the Bible. Religions are all based on Works based righteousness, which is like a rope of sand, trying to satisfy a God that demands moral perfection, and you cannot, and he will not tolerate sin in his presence. He cant, therein lies the dilemma how can one become acceptable in the sight of God? On our own we can’t the Bible says behold in sin did my mother conceive me, and there is none good no not one, but that every man will proclaim his own goodness. It also says that our righteousness is like dirty menstrual rags in the sight of God. No other religion than Christianity offers a payment for your sin. It’s your sin that sends you to hell. You broke Gods laws, the 10 commandments you’re Guilty before a just God that must punish law breakers, and you can’t pay your fine. The GOOD NEWS is 2000 years ago a legal transaction took place. Jesus Christ, fully God, Fully Man, born of a virgin, humbled himself being born as a man Died on a cross to pay your fine, rose 3 days latter defeating death and sin! Your sin was imputed (put) on him, so that his righteousness can be credited to your account. IF, you will acknowledge your sin before God, and agree with God that you've broken his laws, ask forgiveness of that sin, and repenting of it (turning from it) and surrender your will to him, giving him Lordship of your life and trusting fully in him for your salvation. Its Christ work, and Christ work alone that can save you, you can’t earn, merit or contribute to your salvation in anyway, thinking you can is not trusting in him it’s prideful and God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble.
He says I am the way, the truth, and the life and no man commeth unto the father But by me!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Walking and Isle, saying a prayer, signing a card or raising a hand is not how you get saved! If you repent and put your faith and trust in him, he will give you a new heart with new desires to live for him, and you will be born again and radically different. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
So my question to you my friend, is why wouldn’t you take him up on that offer?<o:p></o:p>
What sin is so precious that you would spend an eternity in Hell for?<o:p></o:p>

Your question was answered. "The heavens declare the glory of God". The choice of acceptance of the creator is in the hands of the creature.

It is not the "revelation" that seperates us it is sin.

Amen God said
Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"

But back in the Garden he walked and spoke with Adam, the first man you cant get any earlier than that!
Gods always had a relationship with all his creation.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

<DIR>Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
</DIR>

Your right, man has always been superstitious and blamed anything he couldn’t explain on unknown deity, but that’s not God, that’s little g gods. There is no God other than that in the Bible. Religions are all based on Works based righteousness, which is like a rope of sand, trying to satisfy a God that demands moral perfection, and you cannot, and he will not tolerate sin in his presence. He cant, therein lies the dilemma how can one become acceptable in the sight of God? On our own we can’t the Bible says behold in sin did my mother conceive me, and there is none good no not one, but that every man will proclaim his own goodness. It also says that our righteousness is like dirty menstrual rags in the sight of God. No other religion than Christianity offers a payment for your sin. It’s your sin that sends you to hell. You broke Gods laws, the 10 commandments you’re Guilty before a just God that must punish law breakers, and you can’t pay your fine. The GOOD NEWS is 2000 years ago a legal transaction took place. Jesus Christ, fully God, Fully Man, born of a virgin, humbled himself being born as a man Died on a cross to pay your fine, rose 3 days latter defeating death and sin! Your sin was imputed (put) on him, so that his righteousness can be credited to your account. IF, you will acknowledge your sin before God, and agree with God that you've broken his laws, ask forgiveness of that sin, and repenting of it (turning from it) and surrender your will to him, giving him Lordship of your life and trusting fully in him for your salvation. Its Christ work, and Christ work alone that can save you, you can’t earn, merit or contribute to your salvation in anyway, thinking you can is not trusting in him it’s prideful and God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble.
He says I am the way, the truth, and the life and no man commeth unto the father But by me!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Walking and Isle, saying a prayer, signing a card or raising a hand is not how you get saved! If you repent and put your faith and trust in him, he will give you a new heart with new desires to live for him, and you will be born again and radically different. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
So my question to you my friend, is why wouldn’t you take him up on that offer?<o:p></o:p>
What sin is so precious that you would spend an eternity in Hell for?<o:p></o:p>

The things you say are based on faith. Faith are those beliefs which are based on no evidence, or evidence that is not convincing to a reasonable, rational mind. You believe they are true, because you believe they are true.
You say” Religions are all based on Works based righteousness”, but this is not a true statement, it is merely what you have been taught. The truth is not in you.

2500 years ago a man, who did not claim to be God, taught that by contemplation alone a person could attain Nirvana, ‘heaven on earth’ would be a fair comparison.
Why would I wait for death to get to heaven, if I can have it here and now?

Buddha taught that I do not have to earn salvation, I merely have to realize that it is already mine.
Sound familiar?

Thomas Jefferson believed that Jesus NEVER meant to claim that he was divine, and I agree with him.

You seem to believe that Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no man commeth unto the father But by me!”, and that he meant this literally.

If he said it, I believe he meant it figuratively. There is nothing in the teachings of Buddha that contradicts the teachings of Jesus, he just said these things 500 years earlier.

If it is true what you say about Jesus and meeting God, then hundreds of millions of people, who never heard of Jesus, never became one with God. All of these people were condemned to eternal damnation because they were born in the wrong place or the wrong time. Reason and common sense tells me this is not truthful. You deceive yourself. Worse, you seek to deceive others.

If you choose the wrong path for yourself, you have only harmed yourself. If you push others down the same path, you have harmed others as well.
I do not seek to force you down my path. I have found the Way, and only wish for you the same peace.

You ask why I would refuse an offer that comes from Jesus, but it does not come from him. It comes from you, and others like you. You accept something on faith, and expect me to do the same.

I too offer Truth, and ask why you would refuse it, but your faith will not let you. Your faith is a stumbling block to reality.

You are unhappy because others do not believe as you do, do not share your faith. My beliefs sadden you, because you believe I am lost.

I am not saddened by your beliefs. Your beliefs are what they are. I cannot change them, only you can change them.

There is suffering in the world, and I cannot change that. I can only end my own suffering, with a right mind. No action is needed. I do not need good deeds to make me righteous. I only have to be one with reality.

I intuit the Truth of Reality.

Hi My Friend,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
First off I am not here to debate you, or convert you, I cant There is nothing I can do, but perhaps leave you with some questions that you should consider as nothing is more important than where you will spend eternity.<o:p></o:p>
Only God can soften a mans heart and open his eyes and ears to the truth of his word and woo him towards salvation.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I don’t get brownie points with God for talking with you I just love you enough to tell you clearly, what the Gospel is and how you can obtain salvation. The rest is up to you and God. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“The things you say are based on faith. Faith are those beliefs which are based on no evidence, or evidence that is not convincing to a reasonable, rational mind. You believe they are true, because you believe they are true. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
This is not a true statement but I understand where you are coming from. These are facts as over 500 I think it was closer to 670 people saw Christ and either ate with him or listened to an address he gave.<o:p></o:p>
Also I have not only read but personally witnessed miracles that Christ has done. Like taking a disbelieving person such as your self and radically changing them, changes that person would never seek for themselves.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You say" Religions are all based on Works based righteousness", but this is not a true statement, it is merely what you have been taught.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Any time you have to work to accomplish a standard you can’t meet or an award that may or may not exist. That is works based righteousness. You’re working in an attempt to be seen as righteousness.<o:p></o:p>
Ok, then tell be on what bases are your sins paid for? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“2500 years ago a man, who did not claim to be God, taught that by<o:p></o:p>
Contemplation alone a person could attain Nirvana, 'heaven on earth'<o:p></o:p>
Would be a fair comparison. <o:p></o:p>
Why would I wait for death to get to heaven, if I can have it here and<o:p></o:p>
now?”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
How can you find heaven in a sick and dying world? Where people hate and kill each other, where selfishness is rampant, and sickness snatches life away? If all you have is self deception convincing your self that joy comes from in that’s not reality that’s happiness which is fleeting not joy based on a perception that you have to work really hard to convince yourself of.<o:p></o:p>
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“Buddha taught that I do not have to earn salvation, I merely have to<o:p></o:p>
Realize that it is already mine. Sound familiar?”<o:p></o:p>
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Based on what? Again who paid your sin debt?<o:p></o:p>
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<o:p></o:p>
“You seem to believe that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the<o:p></o:p>
life and no man commeth unto the father But by me!", and that he meant<o:p></o:p>
this literally.”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The apostle Paul believed this as well as he was personally instructed by Christ.<o:p></o:p>
<SUP>12</SUP>And there is<SUP>(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:12#cen-ESV-27023Acen-ESV-27023A))</SUP> salvation<SUP>(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:12#cen-ESV-27023Bcen-ESV-27023B))</SUP> in no one else, for<SUP>(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:12#cen-ESV-27023Ccen-ESV-27023C))</SUP> there is no other<SUP>(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:12#cen-ESV-27023Dcen-ESV-27023D))</SUP> name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." <o:p></o:p>
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“If he said it, I believe he meant it figuratively. There is nothing in<o:p></o:p>
the teachings of Buddha that contradicts the teachings of Jesus, he just said these things 500 years earlier.”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But God Said, on more than one occasion 3 or 4 This is my beloved son.<o:p></o:p>
<SUP>15</SUP>Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: <o:p></o:p>
<SUP>16</SUP>For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: <o:p></o:p>
<SUP>17</SUP>And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“If it is true what you say about Jesus and meeting God, then hundreds of millions of people, who never heard of Jesus, never became one with God. All of these people were condemned to eternal damnation because they were born in the wrong place or the wrong time.” <o:p></o:p>
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No that’s not what the Bible teaches they go to Hell for their sin that man has knowledge of God but in his pride denies him or seeks his own path based on self righteousness<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“If you choose the wrong path for yourself, you have only harmed<o:p></o:p>
yourself. If you push others down the same path, you have harmed others<o:p></o:p>
as well. I do not seek to force you down my path. I have found the Way,<o:p></o:p>
and only wish for you the same peace.”<o:p></o:p>
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This is not a true statement either! Let’s look at Pastels wager. So either your right or I am wrong, and nothing lost, I am right and you’re wrong you spend an eternity in hell! One of has to be right or both of us is wrong.<o:p></o:p>
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“You ask why I would refuse an offer that comes from Jesus, but it does<o:p></o:p>
Not come from him. It comes from you and others like you. You accept<o:p></o:p>
something on faith, and expect me to do the same.”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
No the offer does come from God in his word; I am just merely making you aware of it. You are correct that you can’t have any hope for eternal salvation without repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.<o:p></o:p>
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“I too offer Truth, and ask why you would refuse it, but your faith will not let you. Your faith is a stumbling block to reality.”<o:p></o:p>
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What is your truth based on? I believe the only absolute truth is based on God. By the grace of God I was lead away form that as for three years I practiced a form of then Zen Buddhism, TM, and Qigong.<o:p></o:p>
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If God already chose your Fate, long before the beginning of time can you choose a different path?

I'm not playing games, seriously how can you claim you have the choice when God already made the decisions?

This is a valid question, Nucklesack, that baffles many people on how God is able to know the final outcome of everything and everyone into eternity and yet be able to say that we, as humans, have a "free-will" to choose.

When you really read the Biblical Messages we see that there are three (3) parts of God's interaction with Creation and mankind:

1.) Before this earth was formed, God ruled a spiritual realm whereby He was surrounded by His host of angelic beings who were created in perfect and total love and obedience to Him. According to the Bible, these angelic beings are still with God woshipping Him in total obedience to this day and will be there into eternity.

In God's own Will, He chose to create another order of angelic beings that were capable of having the faculties to make decisions. Through that specific creation of spiritual/angelic beings, God would be able to then know the true sincerity of this group choosing to love and obey Him because they wanted to and not because they had to through being programmed for total obedience.

The Genesis account states that Lucifer was a leader from that group of angels and through his ability to make decisions he swelled with pride. Believeing that he could be better and greater than God, Lucifer convinced 1/3 of the group to take part in a mutiny against God's rule. They willingly chose to believe Lucifer rather than God, thus, they defied God's Authority over them and engaged in the mutiny. I'm sure you know the rest of the story.

Herein is what God wanted all along. To have a creation of beings who truly desire to love and obey Him because they freely want to and not because they have to.

2.) When God created and fashioned mankind with a temporal bodily form, He instilled the same emotions and ability to make decisions as was given to the group of angels from which 1/3 were convinced into believing Lucifer and not believing God. Thus, mankind is presented with this same scenario; Choose to believe God at His Word or choose to deny that God's Authority has any merit and go about following other thoughts and beliefs whereby God has no place in one's life.

The point is that God, being the Divine Creator of Intelligent Design, has revealed to mankind what His plans have been from the Beginning and what His plans are into the Eternity of His Creation. We are already told that Good will triumph over Evil and there will be an Eternity when there is no longer pain, suffering, hatred, war nor chaos among mankind but that all will live in a spirit of love and harmony with each other and with God. God offers that to each individual. However, just as Lucifer was able to convince 1/3 of the angelic beings to turn against God, Lucifer also does the same with mankind - making every effort to keep people from knowing God. Lucifer does this through all means including philosophical ideologies and even religions that keep people from comprehending God's True Plan of Salvation.

3.) God's Eternal Plan has been set in motion. He has prepared a destiny for all mankind who sincerely desire to be part of that Eternal Plan but He has also warned mankind of the consequences for not believing in His Plan.

God loves and desires all mankind to Believe Him yet Lucifer is doing everything possible to convince mankind to oppose God's offer of Salvation.

The final point is that God, being all Knowing, foresees who of mankind will have accepted His Plan of Salvation and who of mankind will have allowed Lucifer to convince their pride to choose otherwise and reject God altogether or who will have followed a false religon - believing they could save themselves.

God will not be the one to have chosen any person to love and obey Him; each person will have had the opportunity in his/her lifetime to Believe God at His Word. Then and only then will God fill His Eternity with the portion of His Creation that chose to love and obey Him because they wanted to and not because they had to.

Each person's eternal destiny comes down to his/her own Free-Will choice.

If God already chose your Fate, long before the beginning of time can you choose a different path?

I'm not playing games, seriously how can you claim you have the choice when God already made the decisions?

Your problem continues to be thinking that God made the decisions, and that the decisions are made in a linear time manner that you comprehend.

Sheesh are you always so verbose? :killingme

Yes.
:buddies:

Thats because you are told he (God) already Chose your Fate

Actually, we are told that He (God) has given us a choice but He already knows the decision (fate) that we will make.

Thus, He has already designed the place of Your Choosing to await you.

Choose to be Saved by God or Separated from God. The decision is yours and only yours.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)

Romans 5, verses:

8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If God already chose your Fate, long before the beginning of time can you choose a different path?

I'm not playing games, seriously how can you claim you have the choice when God already made the decisions?

God's decretive will refers to the secret, all-encompassing divine purpose according to which he foreordains whatsoever comes to pass.

His preceptive will refers to the commands and prohibitions in Scripture.

example
Therefore we know that it was not the 'will of God' that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified.

But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass.

Put another way

What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will? (http://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html)

God's decretive will refers to the secret, all-encompassing divine purpose according to which he foreordains whatsoever comes to pass.

His preceptive will refers to the commands and prohibitions in Scripture.

example
Therefore we know that it was not the 'will of God' that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified.

But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass.

Put another way

What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will? (http://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html)

I found this interesting, from the URL you posted:

"This understanding of His sovereign will does not imply that God causes everything to happen. Rather, it acknowledges that because He is sovereign, He must at least permit or allow whatever happens to happen. This aspect of God’s will acknowledges the fact that even when God passively permits things to happen, He must choose to permit them, because He always has the power and right to intervene. God can always decide to either permit or stop the actions and events of this world. Therefore, as He allows things to happen, He has “willed” them in this sense of the word."

"While God’s sovereign will is often hidden from us until after it comes to pass, there is another aspect of His will that is plain to us. That aspect is what is known as His perceptive or revealed will. As the name implies, this facet of God’s will simply acknowledges that God has chosen to reveal some of what His will for us is in the Bible. The perceptive will of God, is God’s declared will concerning what we should or should not do. For example, because of the revealed will of God, we can know that it is God’s will that we do not steal, that we love our enemies, that we repent of our sins, and that we be holy as He is holy. This expression of God’s will is revealed both in His Word as well as in our conscience, through which God has written His moral law upon the hearts of all men. The laws of God, whether found in Scripture or in our hearts, are binding upon us. We are accountable when we disobey them."


Good words..............

What is your truth based on? I believe the only absolute truth is based on God. By the grace of God I was lead away form that as for three years I practiced a form of then Zen Buddhism, TM, and Qigong.<o:p></o:p>
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Every person who follows a religion believes the only absolute truth is "based on God'.
Because of this, these words have no meaning.
You say what everyone says, Catholic, Pentacostal, Judiasm, Islam, all say these things, believe these things.
All listen only to God.
I have been studying Christianity 45 years, and Zen about 40 years.

Every person who follows a religion believes the only absolute truth is "based on God'.
Because of this, these words have no meaning.
You say what everyone says, Catholic, Pentacostal, Judiasm, Islam, all say these things, believe these things.
All listen only to God.
I have been studying Christianity 45 years, and Zen about 40 years.

What is your point? Jesus said he was the "Truth". A statment of absolute terms. Non-contradiction does not "prove" he is, but it certainly eliminates the possibility other truths. Your typical statement reminds me of Pilate

"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him. "" (John 18:33-38)

The law of non-contradiction in its basic sense says "A cannot be both B and non-B at the same time and in the same sense." Aristotle said that "the same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject in the same respect." He also said it elsewhere "It is impossible that contrary attributes should belong at the same time to the same subject."
The law of non-contradiction is of huge importance to avoid the collapse of logic and be swallowed by non-sense.


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This_Person admits there is more than one version of "The Truth"

According to Jesus, There is Only One Version of the Truth:

"I AmThe Way, The Truth and The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

Jesus claimed to be The Son of God;

Jesus claimed that He came to give His Life as a Blood Atonement to cover the sins of mankind;

Jesus claimed that He would be killed by the religous leaders;

Jesus claimed that He would rise again (resurrect to life) from the grave;

Jesus claimed that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide believers;

Jesus claimed that without Him we can do nothing;

Jesus claimed that those who believed in Him would be persecuted and hated by the world as He was hated by the world;

Jesus claimed that He would not leave us nor forsake us;

Jesus claimed that He would return again;

I'd believe Jesus before anyone else. What's more, I know His Truth to be a fact.

:)

:buddies:

:buddies:

:buddies:

Gosh! Can I get an AMEN from you two!?!? :buddies:

Gosh! Can I get an AMEN from you two!?!? :buddies:

AMEN! :buddies:

Nah it wouldnt be sincere on my part (i could lie and tell it to you :killingme).

I will say, if the Bible is the "Word" of God and the "One and Only Truth" as many believe, then there cant be Variations nor a need for Interpretation of it. Let alone an Alternative.... Err Potential version of the Truth.

Typically with Starman, Italian and (used to be) 2ndAmendement, when we debate religion, they rely upon the meaning of the verses same as I. We just come at it from different points of view, which fuels the discussion. We arent arguing about missing content, nor the loose definition of a word thrown in (although i do have to say the Mustard seed is not the smallest :howdy:)

Others on here, proudly proclaim their ignorance of the Bible, while claiming to follow its tenents. Instead of reading or researching it for themselves they rely upon what they are told the verses mean by others. When debates occur with these individuals they do not rely upon the verses, they rely up on their own interpretation or admit they come up with Alternative... err Potential versions of the verses in order to square their beliefs.

Instead of relying upon what is actually written, they use todays values and standards (while ignoring that these have changed since the Bible was originally written) and use what they want the verses to mean, instead of what the verses actually say. Even going as far as creating their own verses if something that should have been included, wasnt.

This is why they fail in these debates,

You know, I'm going to pizz a few people off - not mentioning any names - however, there is a ring of truth to what you've just shared with us.

First of all, the Bible was written in a different time, and in a different place.
While I believe most of what is written - still applies to us as human beings, haven't we - as human brings evolved past, or what was taking place, some 5,000 years ago? Are we still the same type of individuals that existed, way back then? Haven't we had centuries - to ponder what God inspired those early writers penned for all of us to read?

One last thought however: One thing I have found is, if you ask the Holy Spirit to come into your soul, your spirit, while you read His Word, some things in those Biblical verses start to make a lot more sense, than when you
tried reading them on your own.

With His help, many passages are revealed to us, some of which we never did catch the meaning of. JMHO :buddies:

Edit ... One last thought however: One thing I have found is, if you ask the Holy Spirit to come into your soul, your spirit, while you read His Word, some things in those Biblical verses start to make a lot more sense, than when you
tried reading them on your own.

With His help, many passages are revealed to us, some of which we never did catch the meaning of. JMHO :buddies:

Amen! :howdy:

1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, verses:
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

Luke, Chapter 12, verses:

8: Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
10: And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
11: And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Romans, Chapter 8, verses:

12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.