I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?

I had it explained to me once, and I liked the explanation, so I'll share with you.

G-d exists in each and every human being in the beginning. If you accept Him into your life and embrace Him then He always resides inside of YOU. If you deny Him or kick Him out, then that was your free will choice to do so.

So, using the above explanation, in answer to your question, Yes, G-d does care about those that believe in Him and allow Him into their hearts. Those people aren't more important. From what I understand, G-d always laments those that are lost and rejoices when they repent and let Him back into their lives. Free will, free choice.

Also, you have to remember that true believers *believe* that G-d has a plan. And that plan may indeed include wars, famine and tragedy. I think all of that was foretold in the bible. You'd have to read it for yourself.

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?

I have never understood all that BS either. I think I started questioning it when I was in the Marines and they would have us pray :confused: That never made sense to me, why would we pray to god that we would win by killing other people.

Being sincerely and specifically religious, doesn't mean that you aren't also a narcissist.

I typically think the same was as vrai on this subject, but the explanation mig provided is pretty good as well. Many religious people feel like He's omniscient and can handle absolutely anything and everything and can focus on everything. There were discussions in here where God doesn't even exist in a linear timeframe according to many of the religious people. Given that argument, He could probably handle anything and everything if He doesn't have any given time constraints whatsoever. If He DOES have time constraints or can only focus on so much at a given time, then it would be foolish for someone to say such things.

IMO I think it's still foolish for people to say that, but it is what it is. If people want to think that God is always with them and whatever, then more power to them. I don't think God micromanages and allows for things to happen as they happen. I really don't think He is going to fiddle with your coffee maker to test you one morning and see how you do without your coffee. I also don't think that He will have someone else crash into you, because since these same people believe in free will, then they MUST believe that the other person is acting in the same way as they are, making their own decisions. Free will would be completely destroyed if another person was to inflict harm on another with any influence from God, whether it be a car accident or something else.

So it seems like a bunch of potentially conflicting beliefs that are merely justified by "God has infinite power and ability, so there". :ohwell:

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?I think when someone is threatened with a bad thing happen to them, and through no pre-planned, overt action of their own the bad thing doesn't happen (or a good thing does happen), people realize that they are not 100% in control of their lives, so "God was looking out for them". If the bad thing does happen (or the good thing they tried for does not happen), "God tested" them that instance.

Because, people believe they are in 100% control of their lives. If they're not, then they feel their lives are literally out of control. They can't handle that there are things in life that just happen, good and bad, that they have no control over and no one else really does either.

I believe in an omniscient God, who could fool with my coffee maker, could fool with traffic lights, etc., etc. Maybe He does, maybe He doesn't. I don't know. My best guess is that sometimes He does to set the stage for certain things to happen based on how people will freely respond ("testing" happens, in my opinion by both good and bad things happening to people). Sometimes, #### just happens.

Vrai, you suggest that because God may be whispering in your ear to slow down when, if you'd have driven faster you'd have hit a kid, dog, gotten hit by a truck, whatever, that He wasn't simultaneously whispering in Putin's ear, Obama's ear, bin Laden's ear, etc., as He felt appropriate. To me, that's a blasphemous thought - that God couldn't be doing all of those things at once.

I don't feel it's narcissistic to think God sees each and every thing that's happening each and every second to each and every person. I very much have my doubts that God insinuites Himself into all of those situations in any form other than judging your thoughts, intentions, etc. The phrase is as well overused as it is true: Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to what happens to you. I think that's at least as true from a religious standpoint as well.

I think when someone is threatened with a bad thing happen to them, and through no pre-planned, overt action of their own the bad thing doesn't happen (or a good thing does happen), people realize that they are not 100% in control of their lives, so "God was looking out for them". If the bad thing does happen (or the good thing they tried for does not happen), "God tested" them that instance.

Because, people believe they are in 100% control of their lives. If they're not, then they feel their lives are literally out of control. They can't handle that there are things in life that just happen, good and bad, that they have no control over and no one else really does either.

I believe in an omniscient God, who could fool with my coffee maker, could fool with traffic lights, etc., etc. Maybe He does, maybe He doesn't. I don't know. My best guess is that sometimes He does to set the stage for certain things to happen based on how people will freely respond ("testing" happens, in my opinion by both good and bad things happening to people). Sometimes, #### just happens.

Vrai, you suggest that because God may be whispering in your ear to slow down when, if you'd have driven faster you'd have hit a kid, dog, gotten hit by a truck, whatever, that He wasn't simultaneously whispering in Putin's ear, Obama's ear, bin Laden's ear, etc., as He felt appropriate. To me, that's a blasphemous thought - that God couldn't be doing all of those things at once.

I don't feel it's narcissistic to think God sees each and every thing that's happening each and every second to each and every person. I very much have my doubts that God insinuites Himself into all of those situations in any form other than judging your thoughts, intentions, etc. The phrase is as well overused as it is true: Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to what happens to you. I think that's at least as true from a religious standpoint as well.

So god takes the time to do all these little things but doesn't interfere when someone takes another persons life or when babies are born with birth defects and crap like that?

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?I never understood how/why this "loving, caring, compassionate etc..." god would create a world so effed up such as ours where children are abused, people kill each other for their religion etc. and issue humans an ultimatum: "Love and believe in me (whom you cannot and will not see) or die in a fire".

That's a god I can do without. Sounds like the Taliban to me.

So god takes the time to do all these little things but doesn't interfere when someone takes another persons life or when babies are born with birth defects and crap like that?Think about what life would be like without bad things happening. Without any adversity to overcome. Without any negatives to balance the positives.

I wouldn't want that life.

And, how does God judge us on our actions and inactions, our heart's intents, if He does not allow bad things to happen, even to good people?

It rains on the just and the unjust.

I never understood how/why this "loving, caring, compassionate etc..." god would create a world so effed up such as ours where children are abused, people kill each other for their religion etc. and issue humans an ultimatum: "Love and believe in me (whom you cannot and will not see) or die in a fire".

That's a god I can do without. Sounds like the Taliban to me.I think God created a world where there was both good and evil. He left it up to us to choose (free will). When you see abused children, murder, etc., you are seeing people making the bad choices, not God.

In your home, I'll bet there are chemicals that would kill small children. You have access to some of the sickest porn ever imagined in human terms on the box you're typing into, etc., etc. Just because that death and depravity are available to you doesn't mean you HAVE to choose it. I mean, do you choose to kill small children? Do you choose to support those depraved sites? I would bet not. Yet, you choose to have that in your home. As the God of your home, why do you have Pine Sol under your kitchen sink, where small children could be abused? Are you a Taliban home-god? (kinda silly sounding, but I hope you get my point)

Think about what life would be like without bad things happening. Without any adversity to overcome. Without any negatives to balance the positives.

I wouldn't want that life.

And, how does God judge us on our actions and inactions, our heart's intents, if He does not allow bad things to happen, even to good people?

It rains on the just and the unjust.


That's interesting, because that's what most christians are shooting for in their "next life", or whatever it is.

I mean, do you choose to kill small children?

Okay, but that wasn't the small child's choice - some evil human chose that for them. So where was God? Was he too busy making sure someone won on a $2 scratch-off to protect that kid?

I think God created a world where there was both good and evil. He left it up to us to choose (free will). When you see abused children, murder, etc., you are seeing people making the bad choices, not God.

In your home, I'll bet there are chemicals that would kill small children. You have access to some of the sickest porn ever imagined in human terms on the box you're typing into, etc., etc. Just because that death and depravity are available to you doesn't mean you HAVE to choose it. I mean, do you choose to kill small children? Do you choose to support those depraved sites? I would bet not. Yet, you choose to have that in your home. As the God of your home, why do you have Pine Sol under your kitchen sink, where small children could be abused? Are you a Taliban home-god? (kinda silly sounding, but I hope you get my point)You're right I don't choose it but Chester the molester and Osama Bin Laden do choose it. God supposedly created them and since he is controlling everything he is responsible. Having chemicals in my home is a far cry from someone physically abusing a child. :killingme

Lets say as a "god", I created something that would go around beheading children and paraplegics. I would be as evil as the thing I created.

This god also doesn't give the people living in the trees along the Amazon the chance to get to heaven. Yep, Taliban.




That's interesting, because that's what most christians are shooting for in their "next life", or whatever it is.Ed Zachary!!





.

Think about what life would be like without bad things happening. Without any adversity to overcome. Without any negatives to balance the positives.

I wouldn't want that life.

And, how does God judge us on our actions and inactions, our heart's intents, if He does not allow bad things to happen, even to good people?

It rains on the just and the unjust.

why doesn't God simply create people with good hearts? If everyone is hand-crafted by God and he's inside all of us, it should be simple.

If it helps people to believe that God or angels are looking out for them when the use their God-given free will to take chances (like getting out of bed in the morning), then who are we to judge?

Let it be.

If it helps people to believe that God or angels are looking out for them when the use their God-given free will to take chances (like getting out of bed in the morning), then who are we to judge?

Let it be.

She's not judging, she's trying to understand.

why doesn't God simply create people with good hearts? If everyone is hand-crafted by God and he's inside all of us, it should be simple.
:clap:

But then the churches, Jessies, Al's etc.... would have to find real jobs.

Think about what life would be like without bad things happening. Without any adversity to overcome. Without any negatives to balance the positives.

I wouldn't want that life.

And, how does God judge us on our actions and inactions, our heart's intents, if He does not allow bad things to happen, even to good people?

It rains on the just and the unjust.

Why not? :confused: I would love to live in a world like that.

Okay, but that wasn't the small child's choice - some evil human chose that for them. So where was God? Was he too busy making sure someone won on a $2 scratch-off to protect that kid?

:yeahthat:

If it helps people to believe that God or angels are looking out for them when the use their God-given free will to take chances (like getting out of bed in the morning), then who are we to judge?

Let it be.

This is a forum where we have discussions. I just like to hear the other side of things and try to understand how people can believe in god.

She's not judging, she's trying to understand.

But why bother? It's like someone trying to understand why child molesters touch kids. There are things that are beyond our understanding.

I commend Vria for not being condescending in her search for knowledge but I doubt she's going to find the clarity she's looking for.

That's interesting, because that's what most christians are shooting for in their "next life", or whatever it is.When in a different level of existence than a human, though.

It's very hard to continue to have faith in God when bad things happen. That's all I have to say on this subject.

Okay, but that wasn't the small child's choice - some evil human chose that for them. So where was God? Was he too busy making sure someone won on a $2 scratch-off to protect that kid?You missed what I was saying.....

YOU, as the God of Your Home, place those bad things in the home. Certainly you didn't place them there so that you could kill your 13 year old. However, you would expect that your 13 year old would be able to have listened to you over the years and known not to drink the stuff with the skull and crossbones on it. You expect them to heed your message to leave it alone.

God does not, in my estimation, allow Satan to place evil in the world to hurt us - it serves some other purpose. But, He expects us to heed his message, read the labels (so to speak), and not drink the poison (so to speak).


I neither think that God worries too much about $2 scratch-offs (render under Cesaer...), nor do I think He's ever "too busy" with one issue to be cognizant of another issue. The latter part of that is simply not a possibility for God, in my estimation.

You're right I don't choose it but Chester the molester and Osama Bin Laden do choose it. God supposedly created them and since he is controlling everything he is responsible.Here's where your thought process goes wrong.....

God is not "controlling everything". YOU, Chester, and Osama all have free will. God provided you the chess board, the pieces, and the rules. How you play is up to you.

You missed what I was saying.....

YOU, as the God of Your Home, place those bad things in the home. Certainly you didn't place them there so that you could kill your 13 year old. However, you would expect that your 13 year old would be able to have listened to you over the years and known not to drink the stuff with the skull and crossbones on it. You expect them to heed your message to leave it alone.

God does not, in my estimation, allow Satan to place evil in the world to hurt us - it serves some other purpose. But, He expects us to heed his message, read the labels (so to speak), and not drink the poison (so to speak).

I neither think that God worries too much about $2 scratch-offs (render under Cesaer...), nor do I think He's ever "too busy" with one issue to be cognizant of another issue. The latter part of that is simply not a possibility for God, in my estimation.

You're missing a big part of the equation.... What about people who do "evil" things but are unaware that they are "evil". What about someone who is really insane? What about people in 3rd world contries that have absoluly no knowledge of a Christian God? What about children who are too young to understand what your Christian God wants/expects from them?

You're missing a big part of the equation.... What about people who do "evil" things but are unaware that they are "evil". What about someone who is really insane? What about people in 3rd world contries that have absoluly no knowledge of a Christian God? What about children who are too young to understand what your Christian God wants/expects from them?

That's what doesn't make any sense. If there was an all powerful super being that created the world, wouldn't the entire world believe in the same god?

That's what doesn't make any sense. If there was an all powerful super being that created the world, wouldn't the entire world believe in the same god?


I'll drop you over in Africa and you can ask a tribesman about Jesus. :lol:

I'll drop you over in Africa and you can ask a tribesman about Jesus. :lol:

:lol: As long as I get to ride around naked on a Hippopatamus, I'm down :buddies:

I think there is another side to the coin, one we don't take into consideration at least in a conscious sense:

There is another entity who tests you nearly everyday, whether you know it or not, and his name is Satan.

Take, for example, the Book of Job, in the OT. In an extremely trying situation, God allowed Satan to test Job's faith in the Lord. Satan nearly wiped out Job's family and his possessions. Job wasn't in on the plan, and couldn't understand why he was being tormented so badly. He came through however, in the end, and most of his losses were restored - and he did not lose his faith!

I believe Satan is still up to his tricks, and we must recognise situations where he is at work, and cast him out of our spiritual lives and proclaim Jesus as our Savior.

Most of the time, that works for me; sometimes it doesn't. I am not perfect, and I am a sinner. I am not giving up, however!

He already Judged you Long Before the Beginning of TimeBased on the actions you chose to do, what's in your heart.

why doesn't God simply create people with good hearts? If everyone is hand-crafted by God and he's inside all of us, it should be simple.

My belief is, when you die that question will be answered. I don't look anymore for the motives.

I think there is another side to the coin, one we don't take into consideration at least in a conscious sense:

There is another entity who tests you nearly everyday, whether you know it or not, and his name is Satan.

Take, for example, the Book of Job, in the OT. In an extremely trying situation, God allowed Satan to test Job's faith in the Lord. Satan nearly wiped out Job's family and his possessions. Job wasn't in on the plan, and couldn't understand why he was being tormented so badly. He came through however, in the end, and most of his losses were restored - and he did not lose his faith!

I believe Satan is still up to his tricks, and we must recognise situations where he is at work, and cast him out of our spiritual lives and proclaim Jesus as our Savior.

Most of the time, that works for me; sometimes it doesn't. I am not perfect, and I am a sinner. I am not giving up, however!

That came from a story that someone wrote in a book. So is it Satan that makes other people believe in different gods (and cows) all over the world?

Why not? :confused: I would love to live in a world like that.Serious question: How would you know good if you didn't know bad?

You're missing a big part of the equation.... What about people who do "evil" things but are unaware that they are "evil". What about someone who is really insane? What about people in 3rd world contries that have absoluly no knowledge of a Christian God? What about children who are too young to understand what your Christian God wants/expects from them?Just my belief here, but:
I don't think God judges (to the same standards) those who are entirely unaware of God's Word. That awareness would include having ever been exposed to God's Word, being mentally incompetent to understand what God's Word is, or being too immature to comprehend.

That's what doesn't make any sense. If there was an all powerful super being that created the world, wouldn't the entire world believe in the same god?Free will

Serious question: How would you know good if you didn't know bad?

You wouldn't care. And it wouldn't be a matter of not knowing good it would be a matter of not appreciating it since it would be all you've ever known.

I don't know why you spend so much time trying to sell something that sholdn't have to be sold. There are a ton of holes in the reasoning of christianity. For the christian those holes are filled with faith. The more you try to justify or prove things that can't be the more you'll get questioned.

Here's where your thought process goes wrong.....

God is not "controlling everything". YOU, Chester, and Osama all have free will. God provided you the chess board, the pieces, and the rules. How you play is up to you.

The only thought I would add is that God IS controlling everything however he allows us to make our own choices. Sometimes God will "harden" someones heart (pharoah) and allow them to be used for specific purposes. Either way whether God manipulates someone (which he does from time to time) or we move along by our own free will ALL things work together for his will and purposes.

Suffering is the lot of eveyone. Some reject God because of suffering, believing that he should not allow us to suffer or that he just does not care. Neither of those reasons is accurate. The bible clearly explains that suffering has a purpose. And sadly it's the result of our fallen world.


In my opinion the fallen world also covers somones mind also. There are examples of great heros in the bible who suffered from depression. The mind can be afflicted with malady just like the body.

Just my belief here, but:
I don't think God judges (to the same standards) those who are entirely unaware of God's Word. That awareness would include having ever been exposed to God's Word, being mentally incompetent to understand what God's Word is, or being too immature to comprehend.


That's right it's your belief but there is no "christian law" to stand on or really answer my questions. Per my last post, faith fills in the holes. Period. That's all the answer you need provide. Everyone is entitled to their faith, feelings or lack there of and no one should have to justify them to anyone else. If you want to believe that your God is a purple unicorn than that's your right. Don't try to explain and justify why because you end up digging more holes.

Serious question: How would you know good if you didn't know bad?


What difference does it make to know something that you will forget?

BibleGateway - Quick search: memory (http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=memory)

Serious question: How would you know good if you didn't know bad?

I wouldn't need to know bad. I could live without people getting raped and killed.

Free will

That doesn't make any sense, if god was real, everyone would believe in him. Just like dogs, everyone knows they are real :shrug:

You wouldn't care. And it wouldn't be a matter of not knowing good it would be a matter of not appreciating it since it would be all you've ever known.I agree, you would neither care, nor appreciate. That was my point. Thank you.I don't know why you spend so much time trying to sell something that sholdn't have to be sold. There are a ton of holes in the reasoning of christianity. For the christian those holes are filled with faith. The more you try to justify or prove things that can't be the more you'll get questioned.I'm not selling anything :lmao:

Vrai posted a question to get some responses. I believe she seriously wanted to spark discussion, not to mention the extra hits on her website which is what generates her income. Both are valid reasons to answer the question with my opinion.

You have heard The Word, you've been exposed to the faith. Nothing I do will sway you one way or the other - that's your choice. I was just discussing with the group the question Vrai posed.

That doesn't make any sense, if god was real, everyone would believe in him. Just like dogs, everyone knows they are real :shrug:

I don't think there's a corner of this earth where people don't believe in some kind of deity. There are all sorts of flavors of God.

That's right it's your belief but there is no "christian law" to stand on or really answer my questions. Per my last post, faith fills in the holes. Period. That's all the answer you need provide. Everyone is entitled to their faith, feelings or lack there of and no one should have to justify them to anyone else. If you want to believe that your God is a purple unicorn than that's your right. Don't try to explain and justify why because you end up digging more holes.Everyone is allowed their belief, I fully agree.

What difference does it make to know something that you will forget?

BibleGateway - Quick search: memory (http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=memory)
To appreciate the good, and care about the bad (and the good).

I don't think there's a corner of this earth where people don't believe in some kind of deity. There are all sorts of flavors of God.

Exactly and they are all different, shouldn't they all be the same. Just like the crazy ass Romans believed there was a god for every damn thing.

I wouldn't need to know bad. I could live without people getting raped and killed.Certainly, you can't. It's out there.That doesn't make any sense, if god was real, everyone would believe in him. Just like dogs, everyone knows they are real :shrug:Why? Without providing a motive to God, what is the justification?

Again, using science as a basis, for 65,000,000 years, we didn't know a fish still existed even though we could find evidence that it did back then. We still discover new species, including full sized animals, in the 21st century. What makes you so sure we would all know God exists? Hell, there are still people on this planet that don't know planes exist.

Exactly and they are all different, shouldn't they all be the same. Just like the crazy ass Romans believed there was a god for every damn thing.

We all came from the middle east region (people as a species) but we all look different, speak different, live differnt. We adapt to our surroundings, why wouldn't our God adapt with us. Seeing as I don't know anyone personally that's had God come knock on their door then there is no one to say with any certaintly what adaptation is right. It all comes from the same place but the flavors are different. Most of the major religions overlap in several places with their beliefs.

We all came from the middle east region (people as a species) but we all look different, speak different, live differnt. We adapt to our surroundings, why wouldn't our God adapt with us. Seeing as I don't know anyone personally that's had God come knock on their door then there is no one to say with any certaintly what adaptation is right. It all comes from the same place but the flavors are different. Most of the major religions overlap in several places with their beliefs.

Yes, but 1 god created this entire planet and all of us. So shouldn't we all believe in the same god?

Yes, but 1 god created this entire planet and all of us. So shouldn't we all believe in the same god?

How do you know that we don't and over time and distance only the face of that God has changed and not the actual God himeself. Make God a color, say yellow, one group goes out and adds a little blue, another goes another direction and adds red, another goes another and adds white. What you have now is Gods in green, orange and light yellow, but they all started from the same yellow.

How do you know that we don't and over time and distance only the face of that God has changed and not the actual God himeself. Make God a color, say yellow, one group goes out and adds a little blue, another goes another direction and adds red, another goes another and adds white. What you have now is Gods in green, orange and light yellow, but they all started from the same yellow.

Come on, I think the muslims and their 21 virgin thing is a little crazy, don't you?

Here's where your thought process goes wrong.....

God is not "controlling everything". YOU, Chester, and Osama all have free will. God provided you the chess board, the pieces, and the rules. How you play is up to you.Why doesn't god care about the poor children and paraplegics?

What a shame he created these monsters to torture and kill them. So sad. :frown:

You can have your god who does that. I'll do without.

According to your Bible, Vrai is Larry's wife, she is to worship Larry the way Larry is to worship Jesus.

Accordingly Vrai isnt God in her home, Larry is.Clearly, you don't read their posts to each other :lol:And using your analogy, Larry (since he is God in his own home) already choose the 13 year olds fate.Based on what?As told in Job, God allows Satan to harm you as a test of your faith in him.

Not only does he allow Evil to hurt you, God encourages it so he can tell whether or not you continue to believe in him.Please reference the verse where God is actually "encouraging" evil.

TIA :howdy:

My belief is, when you die that question will be answered. I don't look anymore for the motives.You'd make a most excellent Obama follower. :lmao:

Come on, I think the muslims and their 21 virgin thing is a little crazy, don't you?

I think it's ALL a little crazy. People have to make it interesting to keep it alive. :lol: I think organized religions are all cult-like.

Why doesn't god care about the poor children and paraplegics? He does. That's why He sent us to protect them, and gave the world His word to live by.

Every time those children are hurt, or parapalegics are improperly cared for, HUMANS failed, not God.What a shame he created these monsters to torture and kill them. So sad. :frown: Good thing He didn't do that, huh?You can have your god who does that. I'll do without.I believe you will

You'd make a most excellent Obama follower. :lmao:Not really. I don't consider Obama God.

Please try to recall situations where you were in a position to help someone in need. Since I started going back to church, this has been happening to me, frequently.

Too big a package for one person to carry to their car? "Hey, let me help you out there!"

Car stalled with a dead battery? "Let me see if I can get a set of jumper cables, and get you going again."

There was a guy in the Giant Foods parking lot, trying to push a floor/tile cleaning machine up a ramp, and into his van, one Sunday morning as I left church. I stopped to ask him on my way into the store, if I could assist him.

He said "No, I can handle it." 15-20 minutes later, when I left the store, he was still struggling with it. So, I asked him again - "You sure I can't help you here?"
We got the machine into his van in a couple of minutes.

I thanked the Lord for allowing me to be there to help this man out.

So, was I wrong to believe that God works in unexpected ways, and tests you - for your reactions/deeds?

I think it's ALL a little crazy. People have to make it interesting to keep it alive. :lol: I think organized religions are all cult-like.

Alright, now we're back on track :buddies:

Please try to recall situations where you were in a position to help someone in need. Since I started going back to church, this has been happening to me, frequently.

Too big a package for one person to carry to their car? "Hey, let me help you out there!"

Car stalled with a dead battery? "Let me see if I can get a set of jumper cables, and get you going again."

There was a guy in the Giant Foods parking lot, trying to push a floor/tile cleaning machine up a ramp, and into his van, one Sunday morning as I left church. I stopped to ask him on my way into the store, if I could assist him.

He said "No, I can handle it." 15-20 minutes later, when I left the store, he was still struggling with it. So, I asked him again - "You sure I can't help you here?"
We got the machine into his van in a couple of minutes.

I thanked the Lord for allowing me to be there to help this man out.

So, was I wrong to believe that God works in unexpected ways, and tests you - for your reactions/deeds?

I would react the same way in all of those situations that you just mentioned :shrug: I'm always up for helping someone, but you better believe I keep a close eye on them to keep myself from getting screwed.

Please try to recall situations where you were in a position to help someone in need. Since I started going back to church, this has been happening to me, frequently.

Too big a package for one person to carry to their car? "Hey, let me help you out there!"

Car stalled with a dead battery? "Let me see if I can get a set of jumper cables, and get you going again."

There was a guy in the Giant Foods parking lot, trying to push a floor/tile cleaning machine up a ramp, and into his van, one Sunday morning as I left church. I stopped to ask him on my way into the store, if I could assist him.

He said "No, I can handle it." 15-20 minutes later, when I left the store, he was still struggling with it. So, I asked him again - "You sure I can't help you here?"
We got the machine into his van in a couple of minutes.

I thanked the Lord for allowing me to be there to help this man out.

So, was I wrong to believe that God works in unexpected ways, and tests you - for your reactions/deeds?This is exactly what I'm saying....

That mabye your desire.

But thats not what God tells you in the Bible.
I've posted several times that it is your works that you are judged by.

That you are judged by God does not mean it's not for your works.

He does. That's why He sent us to protect them, and gave the world His word to live by. No he doesn't. Kids are getting abused as I type this. Who's protecting them? Kids are being blown up by bombers. Who's protecting them? Looks like his word is failing. Maybe if he actually showed up for work one day he'd gain a lil credibility.

Every time those children are hurt, or parapalegics are improperly cared for, HUMANS failed, not God. God created humans. The buck stops with him. He must enjoy watching them suffer otherwise he'd prevent it. The innocent kids and the handicapped can't.

Good thing He didn't do that, huh? But he did!




Not really. I don't consider Obama God.Yet you follow blindlessly without proof.

Free Will? How does that play into civilizations that had no exposure to Your version of belief?Or the ones incapable of free will?

My belief is, when you die that question will be answered. I don't look anymore for the motives.

so you believe that this world is filled with no answers whatsoever, just potential answers and many questions that nobody can really answer...but when we die, EVERYTHING will be answered and if you're good then you land in some sort of fantasy land? It sounds like you're already living in one.

God told me to find my way out of this thread before I go off on a bunch of religious nutjobs. :jameo:

Its 70 virgins

I like that religion more and more every day.

No he doesn't. Kids are getting abused as I type this. Who's protecting them? Kids are being blown up by bombers. Who's protecting them? Looks like his word is failing. Maybe if he actually showed up for work one day he'd gain a lil credibility.Yes, people fail to follow Him correctly every day, I agree.God created humans. The buck stops with him. He must enjoy watching them suffer otherwise he'd prevent it. The innocent kids and the handicapped can'tI didn't suggest they could. I suggested you and I and everyone else could.Yet you follow blindlessly without proof.No humans, God.

Big difference.

Free Will? How does that play into civilizations that had no exposure to Your version of belief?Asked an answered in this thread and many others. Please read.

Or the ones incapable of free will?

:confused:

Who would that be?

I like that religion more and more every day.

:lol:

so you believe that this world is filled with no answers whatsoever, just potential answers and many questions that nobody can really answer...but when we die, EVERYTHING will be answered and if you're good then you land in some sort of fantasy land?That doesn't even come close to anything I said! :lol:

I think the world is filled with answers that are able to be known, some we know, some we think we know but are wrong about, and some we haven't even formed the questions to get the answers yet.

However, I don't think we can come close to getting God's motivations on the question you asked. God's motivations on the questions we don't know the answers to will be revealed.

Sorry, I don't live (nor do I think I'll ever live) in any kind of "fantasy" land.

That doesn't even come close to anything I said! :lol:

I think the world is filled with answers that are able to be known, some we know, some we think we know but are wrong about, and some we haven't even formed the questions to get the answers yet.

However, I don't think we can come close to getting God's motivations on the question you asked. God's motivations on the questions we don't know the answers to will be revealed.

Sorry, I don't live (nor do I think I'll ever live) in any kind of "fantasy" land.

at least you're willing to admit you could be wrong about things and that they're simply your beliefs.

I really don't think you're going to get answers to everything upon death. I just don't see Peter handing a manual to God's thoughts and reasoning upon entering the pearly gates. :geek:

speaking of which, why is Peter the one there? Who did it before him? Were there no pearly gates? :confused:

I do not believe that God "encourages" Satan to torment us. I cannot recall which book it was, in the Bible, however one of the Believers states that God sometimes uses, or allows Satan to act as sort of a prosecuting attorney, in the case of mankind.

If you are a Believer, can you be swayed against God? Can he(Satan) cause you to lose your Faith, and turn away from Him? Many people profess to believe in God, however, could it be that the Lord wants you to confirm your Faith, and display your true feelings to Him - as well as to your fellow man?

:confused:

Who would that be?Oh come on now. Being obtuse are we?

The mentally handicapped
The women under strict muslim control
The children
The people who've never heard of organized religion

The list goes on

Oh come on now. Being obtuse are we?

The mentally handicapped
The women under strict muslim control
The children
The people who've never heard of organized religion

The list goes onThey all have free will

You said:Or the ones incapable of free will?

Yes, people fail to follow Him correctly every day, I agree. I didn't suggest they could. I suggested you and I and everyone else could. No humans, God.

Big difference.You cannot answer my questions and you're applying spin. It's beginning to appear that I am being obnoxious so I will back off.

They all have free will

You said:

No, they do not. See post 82.

You cannot answer my questions and you're applying spin. It's not spin. I am answering your questions. You disagree with my answers. We can do that, it's okay. You're not really asking questions, you're making statements in question form - that's why it seems to you like I'm not answering your questions.It's beginning to appear that I am being obnoxious so I will back off.I'm used to Nuck, you're not even close to his obnoxiousness yet! :lol:

Job 1:12 is God giving Satan permission
"giving permission" = "encouragement"? You have quite a broad definition.

Satan challenged God's claim that Job was an upright individual, so God allowed Satan to prove himself wrong.

Yeah and you continue to show your ignorance of the Bible.

You really should try reading the BibleEcclesiates 12:
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

Yeah and you continue to show your ignorance of the Bible.

You really should try reading the BibleMatthew 25:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?


Haynesworth on TV last night when asked about his 100 MILLION dollar contract


First he started off with "It's not about the money".. Yeah right!!

"I have this God given talent....

God placed me on this planet to play football."

REALLY, do you REALLY think God cares enough about the NFL that he placed you as an individual on this planet to make the NFL better?

Yeah and you continue to show your ignorance of the Bible.

You really should try reading the BibleJames 1:
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do I need to keep going?

Check out my post - #78.

What do you think about it?

So if something is a Sin in your belief, but not a sin in the civilization that did not know of your deity, is it still a Sin?

Yes, it is still a sin.

And, God - in my opinion, that's all - will judged based on their ignorance of the sinfulness of the action.

I do not believe that God "encourages" Satan to torment us. I cannot recall which book it was, in the Bible, however one of the Believers states that God sometimes uses, or allows Satan to act as sort of a prosecuting attorney, in the case of mankind.

If you are a Believer, can you be swayed against God? Can he(Satan) cause you to lose your Faith, and turn away from Him? Many people profess to believe in God, however, could it be that the Lord wants you to confirm your Faith, and display your true feelings to Him - as well as to your fellow man?I think that's in Rev 12

Since the versed contradict each other, which one is it? Its nice that your Belief lets you pick and choose the ones you want to follow.
Read 2 Timothy in context:

8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


This part of a letter from Paul to Timothy is about God choosing those particular individuals to a holy life, saving them specifically. It's not about saving mankind as a whole.

The passages I posted are about saving mankind, each one individually, through their works (among other things).

Nuck is a master at reading three words and getting 10,000,000 words worth of meaning out of them

They are not contradictory.

So its not a sin to them since they didnt know any better?Yes, it is a sin to them. A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin.

God's judgement - in my opinion - will consider their ignorance of it being a sin.

Yeah except that isnt what Timothy is about, This_Person is a master at not reading the Bible but claiming to know the verses.

Romans 9 isnt speaking about himself (Paul) but about how God has a history of pre-determining our (all of Humanities) fate
if Ephesians 1:4-5 was talking about the Apostles then so was Ephesians 1:7. Maybe what he (Paul) meant was God has already determined who is in his Graces, but in order for those chosen to be saved he sacrificed his Son. This is different than having the free will to believe and if you do so your going to Heavan.
In 2 Timothy Paul is extolling upon Timothy that he (Paul) didnt have a choice in his belief, and is willing to be put to death for it (which he ultimately was). Paul isnt claiming he is hopeless because his persona fate was arleady determined. He is telling Timothy that all of our fates have been determined by God so whatever occurs doesnt matter.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually tells you that the Devil tempts some because they have already been chosen by God to be saved (but that the Devils lies wont work, because God has already chosen for them)
Revelations 13:8 is pretty damning for the Free-Will argument
Ecclesiastes 7:13 tells you that You can not change your fate, if God decided you are evil you are.
Is the source of your interpretations a Bible class? People who've studied it from an historically accurate perspective?

Serious question. My interpretations come from reading the words, not through someone else's interpretations. It doesn't seem as though you interpretations come that way.

Thats not what i asked: If something is a sin to your belief, but to those ignorant to your particular deity it is not.

Is it still a Sin?
Didn't I answer this already? Yes, it is still a sin.

And, God - in my opinion, that's all - will judged based on their ignorance of the sinfulness of the action.Why, yes, I did.

A sin is a sin, whether you know it's a sin or not. A sin is still a sin. It is a sin. Yes, it is a sin. A sin is still a sin.

It's a sin.


Yes

Mine come from reading the same words, without the preconception that we have free will. You don't believe we have free will?My interpretations also come from studying the beliefs of more than one particular religion, and applying the same critical eye to your Bible that is applied to those.While you make some valid points about the potential interpretations of some verses, it would seem to me that your eye is not critical, but satirical and close minded.

By comparing the spaghetti monster (belief of another religion) equally with Christianity, I can see why you'd be so close minded. If I compared a Yugo to a Volvo, I'd probably be more skeptical of the Volvo's safety and performance claims. If I judged the Volvo on its own merits without the taint of the Yugo, I might get a more accurate perspective on the Volvo.

So the Aztecs, who made sacrifices to their God because he demanded it, were sinning because Your God that they had no idea about says it was?

Aztecs - Sacrifice not a sin and demanded by their God
Christians - Sacrifices a sin

Who's the Sinner?What is the sin? Were they murdering, or killing.

There is a difference.


However, to the broader question you're asking - a sin is a sin to God regardless of whether you know it's a sin or not. However, God's judgement may include, in my opinion likely does include, whether or not you are knowledgeable of God and His Word.

So, were they, in their ignorance of God, sinning willfully, knowingly, and without repentence? My estimation fo that would be, "No". But, if they were murdering were they sinning? Clearly, yes in the eyes of the Lord.

I am an atheist, I do not believe your belief system allows free will while believing in a GodSo, you looked at it with a preconceived notion of no free will?

Either way, that's not what I asked. I asked if YOU believe we have free will. I take by your answer of being an atheist that you believe you DO have free will. Looking at it from that point of view would have made more sense, unless you had a preconceived outcome to your study.And theres your problem, I'm not comparing Volvo's and Yugo's, i am comparing Cars. As such I take the safety merits and the crash fatalities of all of them, and decided to get a Truck insteadBut, you looked at all cars as essentially the same, then?

This is a forum where we have discussions. I just like to hear the other side of things and try to understand how people can believe in god.

I can understand how people believe in God - humans have been believing in one god or another since the beginning of time. I just don't get why they think God is looking out for them specifically or punishing them individually, when there are so many more worthy events He could be focusing His attention on.

I'd be kind of pissed if God took me out of harm's way in some form. It'd be like, "Hey God?? Don't you have better things to do? There are little kids starving to death right this minute. Serious, go do something about that instead of worrying about me."

I can understand how people believe in God - humans have been believing in one god or another since the beginning of time. I just don't get why they think God is looking out for them specifically or punishing them individually, when there are so many more worthy events He could be focusing His attention on.

I'd be kind of pissed if God took me out of harm's way in some form. It'd be like, "Hey God?? Don't you have better things to do? There are little kids starving to death right this minute. Serious, go do something about that instead of worrying about me."Nope! :nono: He can't do that. Because of their "free will", they have not taken him in or believe in him therefore they must die in a fire.

Yet their God demanded the sacrifice.

Yup.

I can understand how people believe in God - humans have been believing in one god or another since the beginning of time. I just don't get why they think God is looking out for them specifically or punishing them individually, when there are so many more worthy events He could be focusing His attention on.

I'd be kind of pissed if God took me out of harm's way in some form. It'd be like, "Hey God?? Don't you have better things to do? There are little kids starving to death right this minute. Serious, go do something about that instead of worrying about me."

I just don't think God is "bogged down" by one thing prohibiting Him from doing something else, too.

I just don't think God is "bogged down" by one thing prohibiting Him from doing something else, too.

So what's the problem, then? Why do we have genocide and major weather events? I get this mental picture of God going, ":doh: Sorry about that, New Orleans! I was busy making sure this other woman's car would start that morning."

I had it explained to me once, and I liked the explanation, so I'll share with you.

G-d exists in each and every human being in the beginning. If you accept Him into your life and embrace Him then He always resides inside of YOU. If you deny Him or kick Him out, then that was your free will choice to do so.

So, using the above explanation, in answer to your question, Yes, G-d does care about those that believe in Him and allow Him into their hearts. Those people aren't more important. From what I understand, G-d always laments those that are lost and rejoices when they repent and let Him back into their lives. Free will, free choice.

Also, you have to remember that true believers *believe* that G-d has a plan. And that plan may indeed include wars, famine and tragedy. I think all of that was foretold in the bible. You'd have to read it for yourself.


Why do you type G-d and not God?

So what's the problem, then? Why do we have genocide and major weather events? I get this mental picture of God going, ":doh: Sorry about that, New Orleans! I was busy making sure this other woman's car would start that morning.":killingme

So what's the problem, then? Why do we have genocide and major weather events? I get this mental picture of God going, ":doh: Sorry about that, New Orleans! I was busy making sure this other woman's car would start that morning."

I can't wait to hear the excuse for this one :lol:

I can't wait to hear the excuse for this one :lol:

It was his way of bringing the people back together again in helping the needy. It made our country better. :yay:


:rolleyes:

It was his way of bringing the people back together again in helping the needy. It made our country better. :yay:


:rolleyes:

:doh: Good thinking, just like he let the plane take out the twin towers, that brought us together as a country and freed Iraq from tyranny :clap:

:doh: Good thinking, just like he let the plane take out the twin towers, that brought us together as a country and freed Iraq from tyranny :clap:His "do-good 2000" machine must have had a hiccup when he let that woman cut up her kids and put them in her freezer last year.

But then again, those lil kids prolly rejected him with their "free will".

:doh: Good thinking, just like he let the plane take out the twin towers, that brought us together as a country and freed Iraq from tyranny :clap:

No, it was to bring our country revenue by selling all the 9/11 memorabilia crap in every store across the nation. Duh!

His "do-good 2000" machine must have had a hiccup when he let that woman cut up her kids and put them in her freezer last year.

But then again, those lil kids prolly rejected him with their "free will".

No, it was because they were black. Don't you know that God only lets bad things happen to black people? :duh:

Good Lord! This is enough to make your head spin...seems like just a bunch of back and forth, back and forth.

So what's the problem, then? Why do we have genocide and major weather events? I get this mental picture of God going, ":doh: Sorry about that, New Orleans! I was busy making sure this other woman's car would start that morning."I guess the bigger question is, why would God change our weather? It's an adversity we need to overcome.

Do I think God really pulls you back from the edge you didn't realize was coming? Maybe, if your life's work isn't done yet and He needs something specific from you. Do I think he weighs which color car you buy vs helping Ethiopians? No, I don't.

I can't wait to hear the excuse for this one :lol:

Excuse?

His "do-good 2000" machine must have had a hiccup when he let that woman cut up her kids and put them in her freezer last year.

But then again, those lil kids prolly rejected him with their "free will".

The kids were spawns of Satan and she was doing gods work.

Excuse?

Yeah, was he too busy helping some girl with her bad hair day and didn't know it happened until it was too late?

It's an adversity we need to overcome. Why did he create adversity to begin with? I would give my kids the most pleasurable living conditions possible. Be damned if I'd create as hostile an environment as this place. I'd want them living in peace and harmony.

And I'd visit them so they could see me since they're supposed to love and devote their life to me.

So God is omnipotent and all-knowing yet has to test you in order to determine if you have faith in him?

Shouldnt he already know it?I believe He does. But I'm not sure that each person knows how deep their own faith goes.

Interesting question - is it testing your faith in God for God, or for YOU?

Why did he create adversity to begin with? I would give my kids the most pleasurable living conditions possible. Be damned if I'd create as hostile an environment as this place. I'd want them living in peace and harmony.

And I'd visit them so they could see me since they're supposed to love and devote their life to me.
Well, then, congratulations to you. You'd be a better God (in your eyes) than the actual God.

You should be proud! :patriot: :howdy:

Well, then, congratulations to you. You'd be a better God (in your eyes) than the actual God.

You should be proud! :patriot: :howdy:Thank you! I would be a better god. Much better. :diva:


:youskippedthequestionagain:









>

Thank you! I would be a better god. Much better. :diva:In your view, I 100% agree:youskippedthequestionagain:No, I answered it before, and you didn't like the answer. I can't help that. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean I'm going to change my answer

(Hey, thatguy or That_Guy, you should change your sig line to that last sentence)

In Job's case it was to prove God correct against Satan.

In S&G's case (and Lot) God tested the people.

In Abrahams case it was to show God that Abraham would continue to love him (Abraham already loved God, so it couldnt have been for Abraham).

Actually, in Abraham's case, it was a test of faith that God would be able to restore Isaac back to life. Abraham believed God that God could and would do it. However, had God allowed Abraham to sacrifice Isaac just to prove Resurrection of the dead to Abraham, then only Abraham and Isaac would have benefitted from the proven miracle. Additionally, since Isaac was still an imperfect human, the sacrifice made by Abraham would not be a universal Atonement for all mankind.

Instead, this was a foreshadow of what God would need to do in order to benefit all of mankind by allowing His Son Yeshua (Jesus) to be offered up once and for all as the perfect and acceptable sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.

The test of faith is personally yours now; whether to have faith that Christ will be your Saviour to resurrect you from the dead at the end of days or whether you do not believe that Christ's Atonement paves the way for you to receive God's Mercy upon your soul whereby you can receive Eternal Life through God's Plan of Salvation.

Hebrews, Chapter 11, verses:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Why did he create adversity to begin with? I would give my kids the most pleasurable living conditions possible. Be damned if I'd create as hostile an environment as this place. I'd want them living in peace and harmony.

And I'd visit them so they could see me since they're supposed to love and devote their life to me.

I would hate to meet your spoiled little children....:killingme

Posted in another thread, but something to consider:

What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will? (http://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html) I found this interesting, from the URL you posted:

"This understanding of His sovereign will does not imply that God causes everything to happen. Rather, it acknowledges that because He is sovereign, He must at least permit or allow whatever happens to happen. This aspect of God’s will acknowledges the fact that even when God passively permits things to happen, He must choose to permit them, because He always has the power and right to intervene. God can always decide to either permit or stop the actions and events of this world. Therefore, as He allows things to happen, He has “willed” them in this sense of the word."

"While God’s sovereign will is often hidden from us until after it comes to pass, there is another aspect of His will that is plain to us. That aspect is what is known as His perceptive or revealed will. As the name implies, this facet of God’s will simply acknowledges that God has chosen to reveal some of what His will for us is in the Bible. The perceptive will of God, is God’s declared will concerning what we should or should not do. For example, because of the revealed will of God, we can know that it is God’s will that we do not steal, that we love our enemies, that we repent of our sins, and that we be holy as He is holy. This expression of God’s will is revealed both in His Word as well as in our conscience, through which God has written His moral law upon the hearts of all men. The laws of God, whether found in Scripture or in our hearts, are binding upon us. We are accountable when we disobey them."


If you believe in God, or not, these are some very telling words to all of us.

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?


God looks out for some folks...

God gave me a fantatstic penis.. I owe everything I have to my penis.. I owe it half of my attitude and most of my forgiveness.. I made a girl cry with my penis once.. I also made a woman cry out to god with my penis. I beat my penis for its sins and I make others pay for their sins through my penis.. my penis is the root of all evil and knowing this evil.. more women want the penis...
I think god lives in my penis and I think folks should pray for it (27 currently do)

I hear people - people of real faith, not just random commenting - say things like, "God is testing me today," and, "God was looking out for me today."

Do individual people really think God cares about their piddly problems? Like, instead of concerning Himself with famines and child abusers, He's focusing on your morning commute and throwing traffic in your way. Or clearing the way for you because He knows you got up late and are in a rush.

That seems to me the height of arrogance, that you are so much more important than anyone else in the world, and God is specifically watching you personally. If there is a God, I really hope he has better things to do than worry about the rain in your particular world. Or maybe that's why things are so screwed up - God is making sure your coffeemaker works so you can have a cup of joe, and wasn't paying attention to the flood that just wiped out half a million people.

And why you? In the split-second God was making sure you didn't get in a car accident, hundreds of people died all over the world. Why are you more important than them?

But...

...you're assuming God is an individual incapable of multi-tasking. We don't know for sure what this being is made up of and what it is capable of. This, all assuming God exists in the first place.

But...

...you're assuming God is an individual incapable of multi-tasking. We don't know for sure what this being is made up of and what it is capable of. This, all assuming God exists in the first place.

Apparently, there are hundreds and hundreds of folks in the Sports Community, that believe in God. How many times, over the years, have you seen an athlete - stop - and raise his or her hand to the sky, after hitting a home run or or scoring a touchdown, etc.?

Ever seen them touch their foreheads and cross their hearts?

Seems to me, these folks are acknowledging their Lord, thanking Him for letting them come through, both for themselves and their team.

Are they wrong to do so? Better yet, are they misguided in beleiving He might have helped them accomplish what they just did?

Apparently, there are hundreds and hundreds of folks in the Sports Community, that believe in God. How many times, over the years, have you seen an athlete - stop - and raise his or her hand to the sky, after hitting a home run or or scoring a touchdown, etc.?

Ever seen them touch their foreheads and cross their hearts?

Seems to me, these folks are acknowledging their Lord, thanking Him for letting them come through, both for themselves and their team.

Are they wrong to do so?

I always thought that was funny. Does God pick favorites? Does he cheer for one team and give them an advantage over the other?

I always thought that was funny. Does God pick favorites? Does he cheer for one team and give them an advantage over the other?

Can't answer that one.

The point is, these folks thank God, and seem to think/rejoice in God, for what they've accomplished. Did God take the time, out of His heavy schedule, to help them perform?

Seems to me that THEY think so! :yahoo:

I never understood how/why this "loving, caring, compassionate etc..." god would create a world so effed up such as ours where children are abused, people kill each other for their religion etc. and issue humans an ultimatum: "Love and believe in me (whom you cannot and will not see) or die in a fire".

That's a god I can do without. Sounds like the Taliban to me.

With out God you would not be concerned about the above mentioned things. The fact that we care about people is evidence of God and his love for his creation.

In essence you would not no what evil was if you did not know good and vice versa. The why and how is another question.

Our your observations any diffrent than Job's?

With out God you would not be concerned about the above mentioned things. The fact that we care about people is evidence of God and his love for his creation.

In essence you would not no what evil was if you did not know good and vice versa. The why and how is another question.

Our your observations any diffrent than Job's?

I have to agree with your rational. If there were not actions - that were good or evil, how would mankind be able to contrast what was right and what was wrong? Without the ability to contrast those actions, we then would have to rely upon our own internal moralistic values.

And, as humanity has shown, throughout history, there have been many people who do not, and did not possess that morality within themselves. Do you think that God, in His wisdom, could have foreseen that happening?

As to the why and how, well now, it seems like we're trying to get inside the mind of God, and that's not going to happen unless we are lucky enough to meet Him on day...........

I have to agree with your rational. If there were not actions - that were good or evil, how would mankind be able to contrast what was right and what was wrong? Without the ability to contrast those actions, we then would have to rely upon our own internal moralistic values.

And, as humanity has shown, throughout history, there have been many people who do not, and did not possess that morality within themselves. Do you think that God, in His wisdom, could have foreseen that happening?

As to the why and how, well now, it seems like we're trying to get inside the mind of God, and that's not going to happen unless we are lucky enough to meet Him on day...........

So, Penn, I have faith. How do you explain my situation? I haven't read the entire thread, BTW. I have been a good person, have helped many out, have gone out of my way to be good to people except those that I think are evil. Why am I in the position I am in???? It will be nice to meet God one day, I just didn't think it would be when I was in my 50's.

And tell me just how much faith you all would have in a forgiving God if you got the diagnosis I did? Just wondering how all of you would feel? Not being mean here, but how long would your faith last?

Are they wrong to do so? Better yet, are they misguided in beleiving He might have helped them accomplish what they just did?
Wrong or misguided? Who can say.

Everyone lives in their own reality.

So, Penn, I have faith. How do you explain my situation? I haven't read the entire thread, BTW. I have been a good person, have helped many out, have gone out of my way to be good to people except those that I think are evil. Why am I in the position I am in???? It will be nice to meet God one day, I just didn't think it would be when I was in my 50's.

And tell me just how much faith you all would have in a forgiving God if you got the diagnosis I did? Just wondering how all of you would feel? Not being mean here, but how long would your faith last?

I don't have a quick and easy answer for you BS Gal. I have heard from talking with others, that God may have a plan for you, that neither you or the rest of us can explain. Prayers to you.

However let me refer you to a gentleman, now deceased, and may you read and take heart from his words:

TONY SNOW'S TESTIMONY

This is an outstanding testimony from Tony Snow,
President Bush's Press Secretary, and his fight with cancer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Blessings arrive in unexpected packages,
- in my case, cancer.
Those of us with potentially fatal diseases
- and there are millions in America today -
find ourselves in the odd position of coping with our mortality
while trying to fathom God's will.
Although it would be the height of presumption
to declare with confidence 'What It All Means,'
Scripture provides powerful hints and consolations.

The first is that we shouldn't spend too much time
trying to answer the 'why' questions:
Why me?
Why must people suffer?
Why can't someone else get sick?
We can't answer such things,
and the questions themselves
often are designed more to express our anguish
than to solicit an answer.

I don't know why I have cancer, and I don't much care.
It is what it is, a plain and indisputable fact.
Yet even while staring into a mirror darkly,
great and stunning truths began to take shape.
Our maladies define a central feature of our existence:
We are fallen.
We are imperfect.
Our bodies give out.

But, despite this, - or because of it, -
God offers the possibility of salvation and grace.
We don't know how the narrative of our lives will end,
but we get to choose how to use the interval
between now
and the moment we meet our Creator face-to-face.

Second, we need to get past the anxiety.
The mere thought of dying
can send adrenaline flooding through your system.
A dizzy, unfocused panic seizes you.
Your heart thumps; your head swims.
You think of nothingness and swoon.
You fear partings;
you worry about the impact on family and friends.
You fidget and get nowhere.

To regain footing, remember that we were born not into death,
but into life - and that the journey continues
after we have finished our days on this earth.
We accept this on faith,
but that faith is nourished by a conviction
that stirs even within many non-believing hearts
- an institution that the gift of life, once given,
cannot be taken away.
Those who have been stricken
enjoy the special privilege of being able to fight
with their might, main, and faith
to live fully, richly, exuberantly
- no matter how their days may be numbered.

Third, we can open our eyes and hearts.
God relishes surprise.
We want lives of simple, predictable ease,
- smooth, even trails as far as the eye can see, -
but God likes to go off-road.
He provokes us with twists and turns.
He places us in predicaments
that seem to defy our endurance and comprehension
- and yet don't.
By His love and grace, we persevere.
The challenges that make our hearts leap
and stomachs churn
invariably strengthen our faith
and grant measures of wisdom and joy
we would not experience otherwise.

'You Have Been Called'.
Picture yourself in a hospital bed.
The fog of anesthesia has begun to wear away.
A doctor stands at your feet,
a loved one holds your hand at the side.
'It's cancer,' the healer announces.

The natural reaction is to turn to God
and ask him to serve as a cosmic Santa.
'Dear God, make it all go away.
Make everything simpler.'
But another voice whispers: 'You have been called.'
Your quandary has drawn you closer to God,
closer to those you love,
closer to the issues that matter,
- and has dragged into insignificance
the banal concerns
that occupy our 'normal time.'

There's another kind of response,
although usually short-lived,
an inexplicable shudder of excitement
as if a clarifying moment of calamity
has swept away everything trivial and tiny,
and placed before us
the challenge of important questions.

The moment you enter the Valley of the Shadow of Death,
things change.
You discover that Christianity
is not something doughy, passive, pious, and soft.
Faith may be the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.
But it also draws you into a world shorn of fearful caution.
The life of belief teems with thrills, boldness, danger, shocks,
reversals, triumphs, and epiphanies.
Think of Paul, traipsing through the known world
and contemplating trips
to what must have seemed the antipodes (Spain),
shaking the dust from his sandals,
worrying not about the morrow,
but only about the moment.

There's nothing wilder than a life of humble virtue,
- for it is through selflessness and service
that God wrings from our bodies and spirits
the most we ever could give,
the most we ever could offer,
and the most we ever could do.

Finally, we can let love change everything.
When Jesus was faced with the prospect of crucifixion,
he grieved not for himself,
but for us.
He cried for Jerusalem before entering the Holy City.
From the Cross, he took on the cumulative burden of human sin and weakness,
and begged for forgiveness on our behalf.

We get repeated chances
to learn that life is not about us,
that we acquired purpose and satisfaction
by sharing in God's love for others.
Sickness gets us part way there.
It reminds us of our limitations and dependence.
But it also gives us a chance to serve the healthy.
A minister friend of mine observes
that people suffering grave afflictions
often acquire the faith of two people,
while loved ones accept the burden
of two peoples' worries and fears.

'Learning How to Live'.
Most of us have watched friends as they drifted toward God's arms,
not with resignation, but with peace and hope.
In so doing, they have taught us not how to die,
but how to live.
They have emulated Christ
by transmitting the power and authority of live.

I sat by my best friend's bedside a few years ago
as a wasting cancer took him away.
He kept at his table a worn Bible
and a 1928 edition of the Book of Common Prayer.
A shattering grief disabled his family,
many of his old friends, and at least one priest.
Here was an humble and very good guy,
someone who apologized when he winced with pain
because he thought it made his guest uncomfortable.
He restrained his equanimity and good humor
literally until his last conscious moment.
'I'm going to try to beat [this cancer],'
he told me several months before he died.
'But if I don't, I'll see you on the other side.'

His gift was to remind everyone around him
that even though God doesn't promise us tomorrow,
he does promise us eternity
- filled with life and love we cannot comprehend, -
and that one can, in the throes of sickness,
point the rest of us toward timeless truths
that will help us weather future storms.

Through such trials, God bids us to choose:
Do we believe, or do we not?
Will we be bold enough to love,
daring enough to serve,
humble enough to submit,
and strong enough
to acknowledge our limitations?
Can we surrender our concern
in things that don't matter
so that we might devote our remaining days
to things that do?

When our faith flags, He throws reminders in our way.
Think of the prayer warriors in our midst.
They change things,
and those of us
who have been on the receiving end
of their petitions and intercessions
know it.
It is hard to describe,
but there are times
when suddenly the hairs on the back of your neck stand up,
and you feel a surge of the Spirit.
Somehow you just know:
Others have chosen,
when talking to the Author of all creation,
to lift us up,
- to speak of us!

This is love of a very special order.
But so is the ability to sit back
and appreciate the wonder of every created thing.
The mere thought of death somehow makes every blessing vivid,
every happiness more luminous and intense.
We may not know how our contest with sickness will end,
but we have felt the ineluctable touch of God.

What is man that Thou are mindful of him?
We don't know much, but we know this:
No matter where we are,
no matter what we do,
no matter how bleak or frightening our prospects,
each and every one of us who believe each and every day,
lies in the same safe and impregnable place,
in the hollow of God's hand.'

T. Snow

Penn,

I was thinking of Tony when I read bsgal's posting.

Gerald May has also written extensively on his struggles with spirituality, not only through his work (a doctor - in Maryland - who worked with addicts) but also through his own battle with cancer; A battle he eventually lost, but he describes the process of emotions he felt. It really is a compelling read. In fact, I was amazed when I looked at the Kindle the other day that all his books are now available for download on Kindle. Gerald has become more popular in death than he ever was in life.

What is man that Thou are mindful of him?
We don't know much, but we know this:
No matter where we are,
no matter what we do,
no matter how bleak or frightening our prospects,
each and every one of us who believe each and every day,
lies in the same safe and impregnable place,
in the hollow of God's hand.'

T. Snow[/COLOR][/SIZE]

WOW, I could add all of the stories of grief ( why is my son phyiscally disabled) friends lost to cancer etc. It does not neccesarily lead to consolation to the personal experence that someone is going through.

I can't more to what Tony Snow said. Thanks for the encouragement on that letter. :buddies:

WOW, I could add all of the stories of grief ( why is my son phyiscally disabled) friends lost to cancer etc. It does not neccesarily lead to consolation to the personal experence that someone is going through.

I can't more to what Tony Snow said. Thanks for the encouragement on that letter. :buddies:

I read with sadness, BS Gal's post, and I sat here in this chair trying to think, what I could say to her. Suddenly, I remembered I had downloaded Tony Snow's letter, and thought: "He had put things into perspective much better than I can", so I copied and pasted it. I hope it answered a few questions......:howdy:

Thank you.

If there is a God (and I believe there is), and this God created man, why wouldn’t He care about us and our problems? But he doesn’t solve them for us. He gives us the tools to solve them ourselves. It is sort of like a test. But I believe the God I worship (Yahweh or Jehovah) is a God that created nature not to manipulate it at any whim or will; God created nature and created its natural course. He put things in motion and things happen as nature – the nature God created – dictates.

Caring about our problems doesn’t mean He doesn’t want us to experience problems. In fact He said we would. God is concerned about our salvation not our everyday trivialities. Really I think all he is concerned about, with our everyday problems, is how we deal with it. How it will affect our decision to accept Him regardless of how bad things get. That, no matter how bad things do get for you as an individual, you still recognize He is still God.

If there is a God, He is arrogant. He is God. Why wouldn’t there, from our perspective, be some level of arrogance that goes with that? From His perspective it’s not arrogant. A lot of people think George Bush is arrogant; but do you think Laura thinks so? It’s a matter of perspective. I don’t think God is arrogant. Arrogance would require that He thumb down on us; ALL OF US.

God’s perspective on dying and death is far different than ours. We see death as the end; taking away our loved ones off this earth. Finality. God created life. God controls life. Your death on this earth is not death in God’s eyes. So our demise on this earth is of no consequence in God’s mind………… as long as you are saved. THAT’S all God is concerned about.

It's very hard to continue to have faith in God when bad things happen. That's all I have to say on this subject.

You are absolutely right and anyone that preaches otherwise is lying to you.

God never intended for folks to be comfy in the flesh life........but to live with Him forever, is the ultimate goal...........:yay:

God never intended for folks to be comfy in the flesh life........but to live with Him forever, is the ultimate goal...........:yay:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)


2 Corinthians Chapter 4, verses:

6: For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7: But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8: We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9: Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10: Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11: For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12: So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
13: We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14: Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15: For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16: For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17: For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18: While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

To BS Gal - Praying for God's Special Comfort and Loving Care in your situation.

Why did he create adversity to begin with? I would give my kids the most pleasurable living conditions possible. Be damned if I'd create as hostile an environment as this place. I'd want them living in peace and harmony.

And I'd visit them so they could see me since they're supposed to love and devote their life to me.

I think that what's being forgotten here is that God did not create the adversity; man did with our free will. And that for every action, there will be a reaction: good action = bad action, good action, no action, etc. So in order to know good, we have to know bad or there would be no difference and we would most likely become complacent and therefore believe we do not need God. This is why He allows the bad things to happen.

As for Him visiting us, He does every second of every day, just not in some tangible way that you are demanding. This is the FAITH part in some respects, but in other respects, He appears in many ways (keep reading). (BTW, did you happen to see that AMAZING double rainbow last night??)

To Vrai's original point, because God is omnipotent, He is able to care about whether or not my coffeemaker is working properly while still caring about the victims of horrific tragedies. Some of us are so shallow that not getting coffee in the morning does equate to a natural disaster. While He may not like that, He understands that. But He uses that to show us that our silly little problems are nothing compared to real problems (famine, destruction, sicknesses, war, etc.) and allows us to become more compassionate and giving and loving toward the "real" problems. So does He care about my silly little problems? Of course, because He has a greater purpose for them.

Here's what I consider one of the greatest examples as to why God allows bad things to happen that also is a true story.

Some may remember the woman who was killed by her fiancée several years ago when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant, and her fiancée turned the gun on himself. One of the most horrific crimes that I can contemplate. HOWEVER, her fiancée had a history of abuse and mental challenges that most people did not know about so for all intensive purposes, seemed like a really great guy to the outside world. But only GOD knew what was in store for that woman and her child(ren) and may have ALLOWED this to happen in order for her to avoid a lifetime of abuse and misery because HE (God) loved HER (the victim) so much. And please don't spout off that I don't know what I'm talking about. The girl was one of my dearest friends and the baby was to be my godchild. So I knew her fiancée quite well.

I am one of these people of true faith that often says, "Why me?" I'm a good person, I don't lie, cheat or steal, but I continue to experience "challenges" in my life. However, I also believe that there is a reason that God has me experience these things whether it's to change my heart or show me that things aren't as bad as I'm making them out to be. :drama: I have never gone hungry, nor have I ever had to sleep on the street. But I have watched good (and bad) people die slow painful deaths due to cancer; I have lost friends to car accidents and suicide. I have lost my home to foreclosure. So do I know what true misery is? Maybe, maybe not. God knows our hearts and the measure of faith we are given, so He gives us what we can handle.

There have been many times that I believe He has "interfered" in my life because He has not finished with me yet. I can be rushing out the door (on time for a change) only to discover I've left my cell phone inside. Once inside, my phone is not in it's normal place and it takes me two extra minutes to find it. I go out the door three minutes later than expected only to come up to a car accident that MIGHT have happened three minutes earlier, or at the exact moment that I was supposed to have been in that EXACT spot.

Now, your next question may be then why do these other people deserve to have an accident, but you do not. It's not that they deserve the accident where I did not, but that the accident I may have been involved in could have been catastrophic, and let's say, I don't have health insurance or life insurance. What then would have happened to those left behind? A lot of debt, a lot of sorrow and anger, etc. But God, in his infinite wisdom, ALLOWED me to forget my cell phone and ALLOWED other people to be involved in a minor accident that caused inconvenience, but not catastrophe.

I choose to believe in God, to love God, to worship God. I have experienced Him in many tangible and intangible ways and hope that I will face Him someday. I hope that He continues to be worried about what I eat for breakfast as well as getting me home safely each and every time I have to go out into the world. I hope that He continues to unharden my heart by showing me that there are bigger problems outside of my oyster shell, but I also believe that He has mercy and love and compassion for those victims of "real" problems and that they are in a better place.

I think that what's being forgotten here is that God did not create the adversity; man did with our free will. And that for every action, there will be a reaction: good action = bad action, good action, no action, etc. So in order to know good, we have to know bad or there would be no difference and we would most likely become complacent and therefore believe we do not need God. This is why He allows the bad things to happen.

I disagree. God put in man the ability to rationalize and develop individual thinking; that thinking being different from each other. These differences cause conflict. So it could be argued that God put this trait in us.

Where I think people have it wrong is believing this is some sort of flaw. It’s the nature of things. I can’t think of any other reason for God to put these wild things in us than to teach us lessons. It seems some learn from them and some don’t. The flaw is our inability to understand the larger purpose God has with things like adversity, pain, and suffering. God does want us to learn. How do we learn if everything is peachy all the time?

So God invented Evil (since he's omnipotent) and the results of that evil so that we would need, worship and love him?

I'm sorry but thats a shiatty God, i'm glad i am not plagued with the disease called Faith.

So your God wiped out half of Europe, with the Plague, just so we'd cherish the Renaissance? Your God allowed the inquisition, just so we'd love his allowing the discovery of the new world? Your God showed us his love during the (Christian) Nazi Holocaust?

Your God really doesnt sound any different than Your Devil, what factors did you use in order to make your choice?

I don't know if "inventing evil" is God's job.

God desires worship and relationship with him.


Everything else you mentioned are the result of a sin =fallen world and fallen people.

You only see things from a worldly perspective. This world. Eventually my questions and your sarcastic questions will all be cleared up.

I don't know if "inventing evil" is God's job.

God desires worship and relationship with him.


Everything else you mentioned are the result of a sin =fallen world and fallen people.

You only see things from a worldly perspective. This world. Eventually my questions and your sarcastic questions will all be cleared up.

if god is the creator of all, then god created evil, thats all there is to it. motives aside, he must have created it.

if god is the creator of all, then god created evil, thats all there is to it. motives aside, he must have created it.

No, the argument is that God created free will and that that is the test of ones faith; the ability to do evil, the strength through faith and will to do good instead in order to honor the Father.

No, the argument is that God created free will and that that is the test of ones faith; the ability to do evil, the strength through faith and will to do good instead in order to honor the Father.

if god created everything, and there is evil, then god created evil.

if we created evil, then god is not all powerful nor the creator of all things.

if god created everything, and there is evil, then god created evil.

if we created evil, then god is not all powerful nor the creator of all things.

You are missing, I think, the point of faith. Good and evil are not 'things' that were created, right? God didn't create what we do with our free will; only that we have it and faith is there to help us control and direct our will.

I mean, if I do something stupid and evil, like interject politics into the golf ball thread, God hasn't 'made' that; I just DID that.

If I do something GOOD like repent and apologize for dragging politics into the golf ball thread, I have done something, created something good. Right?

Iin the early stages of His Creation, God created His angels. One of them known as Lucifer, used his Free Will to try to compete with God. He developed an ego trip, thinking he was on the same level as God.

In essence, Lucifer convinced himself he could do God's work as well, if not better than God. Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, as I recall hearing, along with about a third of the existing angels of that time.

THAT, as I understand it, is where man came up with the idea that God created evil.

A matter of semantics? Who knows?

So God invented Evil (since he's omnipotent) and the results of that evil so that we would need, worship and love him?

I'm sorry but thats a shiatty God, i'm glad i am not plagued with the disease called Faith.

So your God wiped out half of Europe, with the Plague, just so we'd cherish the Renaissance? Your God allowed the inquisition, just so we'd love his allowing the discovery of the new world? Your God showed us his love during the (Christian) Nazi Holocaust?

Your God really doesnt sound any different than Your Devil, what factors did you use in order to make your choice?

How do you explain the nature of things? Do you believe everything has it's opposite? If so, just for the sake of argument, God is good. If there is good and everything has its opposite, then there must be evil. It's simply the nature of things. Did God create this nature or is it just the way things are? I can't answer that one. But in the context of God giving us free choice and a mind of our own we have a choice to chose good or evil. Would you have preferred God just not give you any choices and dictate everything you do? I think that is a far "shiatier" option; just a bunch of mindnumb Godbots running around not thinking for outselves. Try to remember God DID create us in His image. God has free choice and he gave that to us.


With everything that has happened in this world you can chose to blame God

or

learn from it.