I am just finshing up a course on Romans doing both and intuctive and an exegetical study of it. My Oh wow moment, I thought you might be interested in is the passage thats often thrown about as the Christians battle with sin Rom 7:14-25

I thought this was a picture of the Christians battle with sin, and its thrown out there all the time in that manner because a Christian is in a battle for the mind and we still have a human nature. I never read it close enough though

A Christian is not "sold under sin. " as it says in verse 14 but is bought with a price. A Christian has died to sin and its lost its power over us when we were given a new heart with new desires. Verse 15 shows the classic example of someone in their own strengh trying to fix themselves. Verse 18 confirms that he cant do it. In 7:22 you can say how can he "delight in the law of God, in my inner being," and not be a Christian? Easily many of men enjoy a good sermon but few are willing to pick up there cross, to deny themselves. A Jew in that day would have delighted in the Law and a lot would have been pious to think they upheld it the rich young ruler was a prime example. In verse 7:23 he speaks of being a captive of sin, that's not being free from sin. This passage is the perfect picture of a Jew that is aware of his sin and is trying to overcome it on his own strengh.

How easy it is to gloss over things on a quick read in the morning before work.

[14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
BHN: The law is ordained by God, who is Spirit, The Christ fulfilled the law, but Christ is also sprit. On the other hand, man is flesh and blood, carnal.

[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
BHN: I know what the spirit requires, but my flesh has other intentions.

[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
By admitting that what the flesh wants and does is not good, I am saying that the law is better, expects more.

[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
BHN: By Grace my sould is forgiven, even though the carnal desires are in my body, and displayed by it.

[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
BHN: I know what it the good thing to do, but I am weak, and cannot live out even my own expectations.

[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
BHN: Repeat

[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
BHN: The devil made me do it.

[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
BHN: I cannot follow the law, no matter how much I try.

[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
BHN: I favor the law, regardless of my actions.

[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
BHN: The mind is willing, but the flesh is weak.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
BHN: No matter how much I try, I cannot do what is required b y the law. What person will deliver me?

[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
BHN: My mind is willing, my flesh is not, but through Christ I can b e sinful yet be united with God.


Conclusion: I don't have to act like a Christian, to be a Christian.
If my heart is right, my actions can be, no will be sinful.

Proof: Jimmy Swaggert is alive and well with his own TV show.

"Proof: Jimmy Swaggert is alive and well with his own TV show"

Now thats amazing grace :-)

I am just finshing up a course on Romans doing both and intuctive and an exegetical study of it. My Oh wow moment, I thought you might be interested in is the passage thats often thrown about as the Christians battle with sin Rom 7:14-25

I thought this was a picture of the Christians battle with sin, and its thrown out there all the time in that manner because a Christian is in a battle for the mind and we still have a human nature. I never read it close enough though

A Christian is not "sold under sin. " as it says in verse 14 but is bought with a price. A Christian has died to sin and its lost its power over us when we were given a new heart with new desires. Verse 15 shows the classic example of someone in their own strengh trying to fix themselves. Verse 18 confirms that he cant do it. In 7:22 you can say how can he "delight in the law of God, in my inner being," and not be a Christian? Easily many of men enjoy a good sermon but few are willing to pick up there cross, to deny themselves. A Jew in that day would have delighted in the Law and a lot would have been pious to think they upheld it the rich young ruler was a prime example. In verse 7:23 he speaks of being a captive of sin, that's not being free from sin. This passage is the perfect picture of a Jew that is aware of his sin and is trying to overcome it on his own strengh.

How easy it is to gloss over things on a quick read in the morning before work.

Yep - Paul really tells it like it is. :)

We studied Romans in our Adult Sunday School Class, a few months back. I recall reading Paul's writings in those verses.

It appears to be a man fighting terrible internal struggles, within himself, realising what Jesus was teaching His followers, as well as himself, and yet - how was he supposed to align himself, as a mortal man with Jesus's covenant?

"I know what's right and what's wrong, but, I am of the flesh, and I am weak." What to do???

I wonder how many Christians realize who Paul was, and how important he was in getting the story of Jesus out to the world.

Before he spread the Gospels, Christianity was a fring cult, dying on the vine (not a slam against your faith). Without Paul, and his ability to get Romans to switch their faith to Jesus, there probably wouldnt be a Christianity today.

You are exactly right in the sense of Paul's importance in the first-century ministry of Christianity and continuing up through today. :yay: Also remember that Paul's main mission was to convey the Gospel Message to the Gentile world through which he wrote:

Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. (Romans 15:15-17)

Paul's letters/writings are as applicable today as they were back then in the manner of how he was able to relate his/our challenges in this life while relying steadily on spiritual guidance and trust in the Lordship of Jesus.

Paul is also the example of a true born-again believer as Jesus said one must be. Recall that Paul was strictly Orthodox at first and prided himself in organizing all-out efforts to persecute the converted Jews whose faith was placed in following Jesus (Yeshua) You might say that at first Paul was a "Christ-punching" Orthodox zealot until he was stopped in his tracks by the supernatural encounter with the risen Lord.

Many critics and skeptics of the New Testament try to say that Paul is the one who "invented Christianity". On the contrary, he exemplified what it means to be a true follower of Yeshua HaMashiach and he includes true-to-life examples of what the life of a believer will consist of in this world from the point of conversion through the rest of his/her life.

Above all, Paul did not try to hide his own weakness in humanity but openly shared his own struggles and this is how so many people who read his writings can relate to what he has written. Yet, Paul always remained an "encourager" in support of all who place their trust in The Lord as evidenced in his writing to Timothy:

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
(1 Timothy 6:12)

P.S. sorry for being so verbose. lol

We can get into a long debate about whether or not Paul "Invented" Christianity.

I look at it more, as he defined Christianity to be easily accepted by people who already had a religious faith. He made Christianity more palatable, by drawing comparisons between the Christian faith and Roman one, especially adapting the Ceasar is a God belief into the Messiah

You are describing more of what the Emperor Constantine did in his "conversion". Replaced Roman deities/pagan saints with patron saints. This is where Roman Catholicism got its start.

On the other hand, Paul, remained of the Judaic belief of the Jewish Messiah and proclaimed through his witness and testimony that Yeshua (Jesus) was indeed the Saviour of mankind and the prophesied Moshiach that the Jews were expectant of. The Jews who placed faith in Jesus also came to comprehend that Yeshua would return to establish God's Kingdom on earth as Moshiach ben David - as prophesied in Judaism.

I see both as being important for the creation of the Christian faith. Paul aided in definign the belief, while Constantine was important to get the Bible ..... formulated.

Paul, the apostle, was converted on the road to Damascus. His is an important story because he never knew Jesus the man, his faith came from the light from heaven.

Pauls story is more interesting because he formerly persecuted the Christian followers.

As told in the book of Acts he went on three extended missionary journeys through Asia and Greece and helped establish Christian congregations in many cities around the eastern and northern Mediterranean.

Um - Constantine developed supplemental teachings by adding religious beliefs, rituals and traditions contrary to Biblical teachings.

Paul remained True to his testimony of preaching the Gospel of Salvation strictly through Christ by faith and not through membership into an organized religion.

Big difference. :)

Um - Constantine developed supplemental teachings by adding religious beliefs, rituals and traditions contrary to Biblical teachings.

Paul remained True to his testimony of preaching the Gospel of Salvation strictly through Christ by faith and not through membership into an organized religion.

Big difference. :)

Remember, Paul was a Roman, born in Tarsus(sp?), and initially was against the movement that Jesus was portraying. He actually had a pact with the Jews who hated the Christ, and had some sort of written commission to hunt and persecute those who followed Jesus.

He actually held the "Coat of Many Colors", while Stephen, an ardent believer was stoned to death, after he stated his beliefs to a court of nonbelievers.

Am I correct in my recollection of Paul's beginnings?

Remember, Paul was a Roman, born in Tarsus(sp?), and initially was against the movement that Jesus was portraying. He actually had a pact with the Jews who hated the Christ, and had some sort of written commission to hunt and persecute those who followed Jesus.

He actually held the "Coat of Many Colors", while Stephen, an ardent believer was stoned to death, after he stated his beliefs to a court of nonbelievers.

Am I correct in my recollection of Paul's beginnings?

Paul was a Jewish citizen of Rome. Rose to the ranks of a Pharisee and prided himself with such accomplishment. Then, after his conversion, Paul held counsel with Jewish counterparts in his attempt to explain that Jesus was indeed Yeshua HaMashiach.

Paul's letter to the Phillipians:

1: Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2: Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4: Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7: But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11: If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12: Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13: Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14: I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


and from Acts, Chapter 23:

5: Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7: And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8: For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9: And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
10: And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
11: And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
12: And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

And from Acts, Chapter 26:

4: My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5: Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6: And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8: Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9: I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10: Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11: And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12: Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13: At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14: And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15: And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16: But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17: Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19: Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21: For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

If it wasnt for Paul the message of Jesus would not have been spread to the known world.

Consider that Paul was an addition to 1/12th of the original equation in spreading the Gospel Message of Jesus. Remember that each of the Apostles represent one of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The fact that Paul appears more instrumental in spreading the Gospel more than the others may be for the reason that Paul wrote more letters/Epistles to the churches than any of the other Apostles who traveled through other parts of the world and these letters/Epistles were documented and then included to comprise the major portion of the New Testament writings.

Also, Paul's message would have been exactly the same message of proclaiming Jesus as being the Jewish Messiah and his ordained mission was to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles (moreso, it appears) than the directive given to the other Apostles by Jesus. However, before Paul comes along, Jesus had already given the orders and Great Commission for His Message to be spread unto the uttermost parts of the earth. This was a combined action not just by the original Apostles but the message was to be carried on by all who came to Faith in Christ - to proclaim the message along of God's Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach. Also, it is the direct empowering of God's Holy Spirit that spiritually filled and prepared the Disciples to have the boldness and ability to spread the Gospel Message of Christ.

Remember that after Jesus' Resurrection, He appeared to His Disciples and gave the Great Commission - (before Paul had his encounter with the risen Lord)

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
(Acts 1:5-9)