im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

Good! Likewise, you would need actual proof of evolution before you could accept the citing of science theories as truth.

However, As far as scriptures are concerned, they are written by those who experienced the accounts first-hand. That is unless you don't believe that historical figures such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus ever existed. Scriptures from the Bible are writings or sayings of the historical Patriarchs, Prophets and of Jesus that have been documented - just as historical accounts from ancient secular civilizations have been passed down to give an account of things that happened in the past. The writings of Jewish leaders and even of the Roman Emperor, Caesar, confirm the account of Jesus' existence. The next step is yours on what to believe about Jesus.

Good! Likewise, you would need actual proof of evolution before you could accept the citing of science theories as truth.

However, As far as scriptures are concerned, they are written by those who experienced the accounts first-hand. That is unless you don't believe that historical figures such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus ever existed. Scriptures from the Bible are writings or sayings of the historical Patriarchs, Prophets and of Jesus that have been documented - just as historical accounts from ancient secular civilizations have been passed down to give an account of things that happened in the past. The writings of Jewish leaders and even of the Roman Emperor, Caesar, confirm the account of Jesus' existence. The next step is yours on what to believe about Jesus.


Speaking of scriptures, I'd like to ask your "take" of the final chapter in the Gospel of John - #21. What is the message in Johns' words? I have read it more than a few times, and have my own thoughts.

Thank you in advance.:howdy:

Is this an open question?

Yeah, Ok, please try not to debase it, alright? I had a discussion about it with an acquaintance, and he said he never saw the meaning himself as I did(from my perspective) and found it very interesting.

Speaking of scriptures, I'd like to ask your "take" of the final chapter in the Gospel of John - #21. What is the message in Johns' words? I have read it more than a few times, and have my own thoughts.

Thank you in advance.:howdy:

You go first. What are your thoughts?

You go first. What are your thoughts?

Aw, that's not fair! :lol:

Alright, my gist, in reading the entire chapter, putting it all together, there is as much of the idea of Free Will, as there is anything else.

That's what I saw.

It reads that, he did so much that all of Jesus' works can not be contained in a book. My problem with the verse is that it contradicts Luke (Acts 1:1-2) which states it does contain all of his works

Not debasing it, just one of the Biblical conundrums.

What Bible are you using?

Acts 1:1-2 states: 1: The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Although you reference John 21:25, John's explanation in Ch. 20 indicates that there are many more miracles and teachings of Jesus that could have been written. However, we are told that we have All The Message that is required to know of Jesus' Message backed up by many (not all) accounts of His Miracles and sayings.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
(John 20:30-31)

It reads that, he did so much that all of Jesus' works can not be contained in a book. My problem with the verse is that it contradicts Luke (Acts 1:1-2) which states it does contain all of his works

Not debasing it, just one of the Biblical conundrums.

Nucklesack, that is the "wrap-up" of the entire chapter, not what is contained in the 2 pages before those words

Aw, that's not fair! :lol:

Alright, my gist, in reading the entire chapter, putting it all together, there is as much of the idea of Free Will, as there is anything else.

That's what I saw.

OK - That's cool. But, actually, I also see Free-Will throughout the New Testament as well.

BTW: At first I thought you might be referring to the question of John's destiny as mentioned in John Chapter 21, verses:

20: Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21: Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

The disciples jumped to conclusions in v23 and some people believed that John never died a natural death. However,
"yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die..."

John was the last survivor of the Apostles who died a natural death, while the others were persecuted and tortured for their faith.

The first few verses describe a scene, where approximately 6 or 7 Disciples are sitting around the shore of the Sea of Galilee. Depending which Bible version you are reading, you can get a sense that these men are despondent, confused, and do not know what to expect in their future.

Peter steps up to the plate, and declares "I'm going fishing!" The others, almost relieved, decide this is a great idea and all go out in the fishing boat.

It appears(from movies I have seen) that this happened late in the afternoon or early evening. They set out, and apparently fish the entire evening and into the very early morning hours.

Back in a sec....

Pause a second: what did these gentlemen do for a living(for the most part)?

They were fishermen!

They decide to return to shore, with empty nets, after being out all night with nothing to show for it. John sees a figure on the beach/shore and after a few minutes, he realises it's JESUS! He informs Peter, sayin "look, it is our Lord!"

Peter girds himself, after recognizing it is in fact Jesus, and they come in closer to the shore. Jesus asks: "Have you caught any fish?"

"No", they reply. Jesus then tells them to go back out and "cast your nets on thr right side of the boat."

How am I doing?

They do go back out into the deeper sea, and follow Jesus" advice. OMG! They are so successful,(catching fish) they can't even pull in the net into the boat!

Pause: Free Will, Act 1: Their way, or His way? They knew how to fish, but without His guidance, His advice, they could not catch any fish. Eh?

So, into the shore they come, dragging a net load of fish. Jesus then invites them to share breakfast with Him. He's got a fire going on the rocks, with a few fish and bread, and asks them to join Him, and bring some of the fish they just caught, so that all could partake in the meal.

This is where things get serious. After a few moments of downing some food, Jesus lays it down hard on Peter, asking him 3 times - "Do you love me more than these?"

If you've read the Bible, you know the answers. By the time Peter answers the third question, he is quite unnerved, in tears, in fact.
Jesus, in my view has just brought Peter back "into the fold". Even though Jesus had told Peter that during the night of His arrest and trial, he would deny he ever knew Jesus.

Then, it gets even more intense: Jesus describes Peter's fate, where He tells Peter "When you were a young man, you clothed yourself and went wherever you wished, and no danger came unto you." Or words to that effect.

Then He told him "When you grow old, there will be people who will clothe you, and take you to a place you do not want to go."

He is going to die as a martyr for taking up Jesus' cause.

Then Jesus tells Peter "Let us go for a walk along the seashore."

They are walking along for a minute or two, when Peter spots a figure trailing them, in the distance behind them. Peter recognises the figure as "the Disciple that Jesus loved." Peter turns to Jesus and asks: "What about him?"

Jesus replies: "If I choose to let him live until I return, what is that to you?"

"You follow me!"

Ok, after all the stressful emotions, that Jesus had just moments before - laid in Peter's soul, not to mention his spirit, why would Peter STILL have the curiosity to wonder about the fate of another man?

Major Free Will example, Act 2.

How did I do?

Major Free Will example, Act 2.

How did I do?

Looks like You're On A Roll! Good insights and thought put into the scenarios described. Sticking to the main point that we do have alternatives but if we choose to do as Jesus asks we won't go wrong.

Looks like You're On A Roll! Good insights and thought put into the scenarios described. Sticking to the main point that we do have alternatives but if we choose to do as Jesus asks we won't go wrong.

AMEN, brother!

Last thoughts: Around that timeframe, when we were studying the Gospel of John in our Adult Sunday School classroom, the movie "Bruce Almighty" was popular on the HBO channels. Although it is/was a terrific comedy, I saw some sobering ideas, situations in which Bruce found facing him.

One of the scenes I remembered was - when God was satisfied that He could leave the world in good hands, while He went on a well-deserved vacation - 7 days, He was bidding Bruce farewell, whe Bruce stopped Him with a very serious question:

"If You have given mankind the measure of Free Will, then how do you get them to love you?"

God replied: "Now you see where My problem is."

THAT floored me; I sat there for many minutes, in awe of what I just witnessed.

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

ED ZACHARY!!

so there answer was..


We'll cite scripture to prove they are real!!??

I had an epiphany this week..

I'm going to call myself a Godhist.

I believe in God..

You do NOT have to believe in Christ, Christianity, the Bible OR organized religion.. YOu can skip the middle man and just believe in God. And I use the term God as I don't know any other word anyone would recognize for a superior being or force. I don't know if God looks like us, but I doubt it.

I do not believe Jesus was a saviour, or a human with super powers, just like I believe nobody on the earth today has super human powers, nor can be resurrected. Jesus was a man, a normal everyday man that the "Oliver Stones" of the day made bigger than life. He was a thug, a lawbreaker, and died for his crimes.

Just like Mohammed.. and Buddah.. and the rest of the supernatural beings humans invented to make us feel better about ourselves and the 'afterlife'.

so there answer was..


We'll cite scripture to prove they are real!!??

I had an epiphany this week..

I'm going to call myself a Godhist.

I believe in God..

You do NOT have to believe in Christ, Christianity, the Bible OR organized religion.. YOu can skip the middle man and just believe in God. And I use the term God as I don't know any other word anyone would recognize for a superior being or force. I don't know if God looks like us, but I doubt it.

I do not believe Jesus was a saviour, or a human with super powers, just like I believe nobody on the earth today has super human powers, nor can be resurrected. Jesus was a man, a normal everyday man that the "Oliver Stones" of the day made bigger than life. He was a thug, a lawbreaker, and died for his crimes.

Just like Mohammed.. and Buddah.. and the rest of the supernatural beings humans invented to make us feel better about ourselves and the 'afterlife'.

Bob, you can subscribe to any belief, or set of ideals you wish to; that's your choice. However, I am in disgust that you would label Jesus Christ as a "thug".

I am going to say a prayer to God, in Jesus's name, on your behalf.

Consider it a "done deal". May the Holy Spirit come into you, in a quiet moment, and share His thoughts with you.............praise be to God!

One of the scenes I remembered was - when God was satisfied that He could leave the world in good hands, while He went on a well-deserved vacation - 7 days, He was bidding Bruce farewell, whe Bruce stopped Him with a very serious question:

"If You have given mankind the measure of Free Will, then how do you get them to love you?"

God replied: "Now you see where My problem is."

THAT floored me; I sat there for many minutes, in awe of what I just witnessed.

BINGO! If God had pre-conditioned and created people to eventually end up loving and obeying Him, that would not be a sincere display of true love nor appreciation for who He is and what He has done for us. He already has His host of perfect and obedient angelic beings who serve Him in heaven since the foundation of the earth.

God really wants people to choose to love Him and do His Will; not because they have or are programmed to but because they (of their own free-will) want to! This encompasses the comprehension and acknowledgment of one's sinner self - knowing that our good will never be good enough to merit entry into Heaven. It is a realization that we can only be saved by the Grace of God who provided His Plan of Salvation through the Perfect Atoning Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, as mentioned in the New Testament accounts.

God is willing that no man should perish but that all would come to repentance:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Not all choose to come to repentance.

Bob, you can subscribe to any belief, or set of ideals you wish to; that's your choice. However, I am in disgust that you would label Jesus Christ as a "thug".

I am going to say a prayer to God, in Jesus's name, on your behalf.

Jesus f'in Christ, have you read the Bible??

If you believe it to be true, then you must believe him to be a criminal.

There are at least 20 stories in the Bible of him BREAKING the law of the land at the time. Today we'd call him an Anarchist.. amazingly close to antichrist..

And don't waste your breath or your time praying for me, I don't need it nor do I want it.

Jesus f'in Christ, have you read the Bible??

If you believe it to be true, then you must believe him to be a criminal.

There are at least 20 stories in the Bible of him BREAKING the law of the land at the time. Today we'd call him an Anarchist.. amazingly close to antichrist..

And don't waste your breath or your time praying for me, I don't need it nor do I want it.

Which laws of God did He break?

- Healing a man on the Sabbath when He Is The Lord of The Sabbath?

- Forgiving an adulteress woman whom the Pharisees wanted to stone to death - when Judaism teaches that Only God can Forgive?

- Allowing His disciples to eat with unwashen hands?

- Chastising the religious elders for turning the Synagogue into a flea market?

- Talking to the Samarian woman at the well when it was against Jewish law to talk to Samaritans?

- Proclaiming He was the Messiah when He really was/is the Jewish Messiah?

- Proclaiming that He was The Son of God when He really was/is The Son of God?

- Performing Miracles by the power of God that convinced people of His Divine powers while the religious leaders claimed the miracles were of Satan?

This makes Him a "criminal" ???

Which laws of God did He break?

- Healing a man on the Sabbath when He Is The Lord of The Sabbath?

- Forgiving an adulteress woman whom the Pharisees wanted to stone to death - when Judaism teaches that Only God can Forgive?

- Allowing His disciples to eat with unwashen hands?

- Chastising the religious elders for turning the Synagogue into a flea market?

- Talking to the Samarian woman at the well when it was against Jewish law to talk to Samaritans?

- Proclaiming He was the Messiah when He really was/is the Jewish Messiah?

- Proclaiming that He was The Son of God when He really was/is The Son of God?

- Performing Miracles by the power of God that convinced people of His Divine powers while the religious leaders claimed the miracles were of Satan?

This makes Him a "criminal" ???

For one, you read the Bible, you know the answers, you tell me.

And he is NOT the Jewish Messiah.. He did not meet the criteria to be the Jewish Messiah.. The reason they don't think the Messiah has come yet is because Jesus wasn't HIM!!

For one, you read the Bible, you know the answers, you tell me.

And he is NOT the Jewish Messiah.. He did not meet the criteria to be the Jewish Messiah.. The reason they don't think the Messiah has come yet is because Jesus wasn't HIM!!

The only thing that Jesus broke was the misguided teaching of the Orthodox leaders who prided themselves in thinking that their "rites, traditions and religious observations" were all what was needed to please God. The religious leaders didn't take too kindly to Jesus stating otherwise by quoting Isaiah:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:8-9)

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me (Mark 7:6)

Those are the Orthodox that didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, yet there are thousands of Jews who accepted Him then and who accept Him now as the Jewish Messiah who Atoned for the sins of mankind and will return as the end-times Messiah to establish God's Peace on earth.

so there answer was..


We'll cite scripture to prove they are real!!??

I had an epiphany this week..

I'm going to call myself a Godhist.

I believe in God..

You do NOT have to believe in Christ, Christianity, the Bible OR organized religion.. YOu can skip the middle man and just believe in God. And I use the term God as I don't know any other word anyone would recognize for a superior being or force. I don't know if God looks like us, but I doubt it.
That's already called an agnostic, or a weak atheist.

That's already called an agnostic, or a weak atheist.

I find agnostic a deragatory term..

As most people see it and think, he's a heathen he doesn't believe in God..

Heathen and Heretic really shouldn't be associatted with a person that believes in "God", just not "Christianity".

Godhist sounds much more acceptable. Though if you are a fellow Godhist, and we see each other in public it would be acceptable to say.. "My Agnosta.. How's it hangin!?"

I find agnostic a deragatory term..

As most people see it and think, he's a heathen he doesn't believe in God..

Heathen and Heretic really shouldn't be associatted with a person that believes in "God", just not "Christianity".

Godhist sounds much more acceptable. Though if you are a fellow Godhist, and we see each other in public it would be acceptable to say.. "My Agnosta.. How's it hangin!?"

:killingme I wonder if priests in the Vatican yell "whats up brotha?" when they walk past each other.

I have often wondered, at the time in which Isaiah wrote his Old Testament book, what the Jewish nation thought of chapter 53?

WHO did they think he was refering to? This was written some 500 - 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. Please read that cahapter, and tell me your thoughts?

i like itsbobs answers

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

I have a bible (several) they do actually exist. Is that proof?

i like itsbobs answers

what is that? Irrational w/o looking at any evidence. Sounds about right.

Chapter 53
<SUP>1</SUP> Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
<SUP>2</SUP> For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
<SUP>3</SUP> He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
<SUP>4</SUP> Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
<SUP>5</SUP> But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
<SUP>6</SUP> All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
<SUP>7</SUP> He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
<SUP>8</SUP> He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
<SUP>9</SUP> And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
<SUP>10</SUP> Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
<SUP>11</SUP> He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
<SUP>12</SUP> Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


This is what is contained in Isaiah 53. This is, as I interpret it, the fortelling of the Coming of The Christ. Again, this was predicted/foretold some 500 - 600 years before Christ was born.

Yet, they, the Jewish Nation refused to believe in Isaiah's prophesy, this coming from a man very well respected in his time.

I may be onesided in thinking the way I interpret these verses, but, I have to ask: Was there any other man, or person, born in the land of Israel, at that timeframe, who becomes remotely akin, in your mind - to the one depicted in his words?

I have a bible (several) they do actually exist. Is that proof?

no i wouldnt really say thats much proof..... i might have a harry potter book but i dont go around practicing magic ( i dont really have a harry potter book)

Chapter 53
<SUP>1</SUP> Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
<SUP>2</SUP> For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
<SUP>3</SUP> He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
<SUP>4</SUP> Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
<SUP>5</SUP> But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
<SUP>6</SUP> All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
<SUP>7</SUP> He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
<SUP>8</SUP> He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
<SUP>9</SUP> And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
<SUP>10</SUP> Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
<SUP>11</SUP> He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
<SUP>12</SUP> Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


This is what is contained in Isaiah 53. This is, as I interpret it, the fortelling of the Coming of The Christ. Again, this was predicted/foretold some 500 - 600 years before Christ was born.

Yet, they, the Jewish Nation refused to believe in Isaiah's prophesy, this coming from a man very well respected in his time.

I may be onesided in thinking the way I interpret these verses, but, I have to ask: Was there any other man, or person, born in the land of Israel, at that timeframe, who becomes remotely akin, in your mind - to the one depicted in his words?


Before it was deleted, i had a thread that asked what prophecies did Jesus fullfill. The Jewish faith believes he is not the messiah because of many prophecies that were not fullfilled:

Isaiah 1:26
Isaiah 2:4
Isaiah 2:17
Isaiah 11:1
Isaiah 11:2
Isaiah 11:4
Isaiah 11:6-9
Isaiah 11:9
Isaiah 11:10
Isaiah 11:12
Isaiah 25:8
Isaiah 26:19
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 51:3
Isaiah 51:11
Isaiah 52:7
Isaiah 52:13-53:5
1 Chronicles 22:8-10
2 Chronicles 7:18
Ezekiel 16:55
Ezekiel 36:29-30
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Ezekiel 39:9
Ezekiel 40
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 8:23
Zechariah 14:9
Jeremiah 31:33
Psalms 37:4
Amos 9:13-15

Wonder how long this will stay before someone gets their feelings hurt that we discuss Religion in a forums supposedly to discuss religion?

Before it was deleted, i had a thread that asked what prophecies did Jesus fullfill. The Jewish faith believes he is not the messiah because of many prophecies that were not fullfilled:


And, remember, I posted a list of 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as being the "Suffering Servant" and Moshiach that pointed to His being the Moshiach ben Yosef that is taught in Orthodox Judaism. The life and ministry of Jesus was first to come to die as a Perfect Atonement for the sins of mankind and not to establish the Millennial Kingdom at that time as the Orthodox wanted Him to do for them - at that time.

The list you just posted are prophetic fulfillments that occur during His Millennial Reign from Jerusalem. (Second Advent)

And, remember, I posted a list if 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as being the "Suffering Servant" and Moshiach that pointed to His being the Moshiach ben Yosef that is taught in Orthodox Judaism. The life and ministry of Jesus was first to come to die as a Perfect Atonement for the sins of mankind and not to establish the Millennial Kingdom at that time as the Orthodox wanted Him to do for them - at that time.

I couldnt comment on your "List" because someone has gone through and removed my recent posts, including the thread i created on this subject.

Alot of the 300 you cited, were not related to Jesus (you had a genesis reference to a king breaking bread that you claimed was a precursser to the Last supper) or they were New Testament claims of the Prophecies.

Since the Messiah is defined in the Old Testament, those are the prophecies that had to be fullfilled, and were not (see my list above).

There is nothing about a second coming in the OT, it states the Messiah will fullfill this upon or during his arrival. The Second Coming is a New Testament creation, with nothing in the OT to support it.

I couldnt comment on your "List" because someone has gone through and removed my recent posts, including the thread i created on this subject.

Alot of the 300 you cited, were not related to Jesus (you had a genesis reference to a king breaking bread that you claimed was a precursser to the Last supper) or they were New Testament claims of the Prophecies.

Since the Messiah is defined in the Old Testament, those are the prophecies that had to be fullfilled, and were not (see my list above).

There is nothing about a second coming in the OT, it states the Messiah will fullfill this upon or during his arrival. The Second Coming is a New Testament creation, with nothing in the OT to support it.

Orthodox Judaism teaches of two (2) Moshiachs. Maybe you can check back with the Rabbi and have him tell you if the first one has arrived yet or if he is still waiting for ben Yosef first. Thus, the first Moshiac still needs to appear for the Orthdox and they see him killed before Moshiach ben David appears.

Orthodox Judaism teaches of two (2) Moshiachs. Maybe you can check back with the Rabbi and have him tell you if the first one has arrived yet or if he is still waiting for ben Yosef first. Thus, the first Moshiac still needs to appear for the Orthdox and they see him killed before Moshiach ben David appears.

The unfullfilled prophecies above are some of the major reasons the Jews do not beleive Jesus is the Messiah.

The unfullfilled prophecies above are some of the major reasons the Jews do not beleive Jesus is the Messiah.And, here I thought it as because they liked the little hats. :rolleyes:

You mean, there's lack of consensus among religious peoples about the same religious background?! I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

It's a good thing you brought this up, or no one would have ever figured that out.

I couldnt comment on your "List" because someone has gone through and removed my recent posts, including the thread i created on this subject.

Alot of the 300 you cited, were not related to Jesus (you had a genesis reference to a king breaking bread that you claimed was a precursser to the Last supper) or they were New Testament claims of the Prophecies.

Since the Messiah is defined in the Old Testament, those are the prophecies that had to be fullfilled, and were not (see my list above).

There is nothing about a second coming in the OT, it states the Messiah will fullfill this upon or during his arrival. The Second Coming is a New Testament creation, with nothing in the OT to support it.

Can you repost your "list"? Since someone deleted my posts including that topic, i cant reference it again.

Hopefully This_Misrepresentation will allow me to reply before he makes another complaint.

Can you repost your "list"? Since someone deleted my posts including that topic, i cant reference it again.

Hopefully This_Misrepresentation will allow me to reply before he makes another complaint.
You refer to me as "misrepresentation", yet I've told you I never made any complaint.

If I have made a complaint regarding your posts, or asked for them to be moved/deleted/changed/anything, then I am now asking Vrai to provide that information to anyone who asks.

Since I know I didn't do that, I would ask you, Nuck, to stop suggesting I did. Your repeated lies are getting to be a bit much, don't you think?

The unfullfilled prophecies above are some of the major reasons the Jews do not beleive Jesus is the Messiah.

I think you may want to clarify that answer... :howdy:

Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/ (http://www.jews-for-jesus.org/)

I think you may want to clarify that answer... :howdy:

Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/ (http://www.jews-for-jesus.org/)
nice try, i think i'd rather stick with the answers from the horses mouth.

Jews for Judaism (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org)
About Judaism (http://judaism.about.com)
Judaism.com (http://www.judaism.com)
Judaism - The Jewish Website (http://www.aish.com/)
Torah.org - The Judaism Site (http://www.torah.org/)
Shamash: The Jewish Network (http://www.shamash.org/)
Judaism 101 (http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm)
Judaism - ReligionFacts (http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/)

hows that lawsuit against Big Ed's coming?

Can you repost your "list"? Since someone deleted my posts including that topic, i cant reference it again.

Hopefully This_Misrepresentation will allow me to reply before he makes another complaint.

I think this could be the workings of the Council of Forumia. They are removing these posts so that some day in the future we will believe only what the council want's us to believe. Further giving credence to the grand conspiracy. :killingme:killingme

nice try, i think i'd rather stick with the answers from the horses mouth.



Originally Posted by Nucklesack View Post
The unfullfilled prophecies above are some of the major reasons the Jews do not beleive Jesus is the Messiah.

Logic lesson.

Jews do no believe in Jesus.

Jews for Jesus is made up of Jewish people who believe that Jesus was the messiah ( a fact you deny was predicted in OT).

If some Jewish people do in fact believe in Jesus, then your statement is false.

So we now know that you made a false statement. It's OK we all do from time to time that's why I suggested you clarify your statement. You did not.

Proving further you are not worth the time to debate because you are disingenuous.

Logic lesson.

Jews do no believe in Jesus.

Jews for Jesus is made up of Jewish people who believe that Jesus was the messiah ( a fact you deny was predicted in OT).

If some Jewish people do in fact believe in Jesus, then your statement is false.

So we now know that you made a false statement. It's OK we all do from time to time that's why I suggested you clarify your statement. You did not.

Proving further you are not worth the time to debate because you are disingenuous.

From the site
Our Mission Statement
We exist to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide.
Maybe you should research what it is your claiming is your proof? Jews for Jesus is not a Jewish organization :killingme.

Jews for Jesus is a Christian Evangelical organization devoted to converting Jews and Secularists (from their What we Do (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/whatwedo)page).
Jews for Jesus claim they are a Jewish organization (a claim that is rejected by true Jewish Organizations (http://www.jcrcny.org/pdf/sdpp/MEETINGTHECHALLENG2.pdf)), which is based on Geography not because of their faith.
4. The Hebrew Christians
Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not. It is nothing more than a disguised effort to missionize Jews and convert them to Christianity. It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance (i.e., community Passover seders, menorahs, messianic services, etc..) as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism.
5. Hebrew Christianity and the Jewish Community
For all the above reasons, Hebrew Christianity is not a form of Judaism and its members, even if they are of Jewish birth, cannot be considered members of the Jewish community. Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbreachable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former coreligionists. Jewish organizations, both religious and communal, in dealing with Hebrew Christians or Messianic Jewish groups should use discernment, recognize the difference between Jewish rights and Jewish privileges.

Logic lesson.

Jews do no believe in Jesus.

Jews for Jesus is made up of Jewish people who believe that Jesus was the messiah ( a fact you deny was predicted in OT).

If some Jewish people do in fact believe in Jesus, then your statement is false.

So we now know that you made a false statement. It's OK we all do from time to time that's why I suggested you clarify your statement. You did not.

Proving further you are not worth the time to debate because you are disingenuous.
We will wait for your retraction since you decided to post an Evangelical Christian organization as proof Jews believe in Jesus.

As if thats valid anyways, Christians dont believe in Allah, does that make Christians that covert to Islam any more valid?

Logic lesson.

Jews do no believe in Jesus.

Jews for Jesus is made up of Jewish people who believe that Jesus was the messiah ( a fact you deny was predicted in OT).

If some Jewish people do in fact believe in Jesus, then your statement is false.

So we now know that you made a false statement. It's OK we all do from time to time that's why I suggested you clarify your statement. You did not.

Proving further you are not worth the time to debate because you are disingenuous.

While it is Wikipedia, the noted sources are still valid

Jewish opposition
In 1993 the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York (JCRCNY) issued a statement which has been endorsed by the four major Jewish denominations: Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Reconstructionist Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations.[8] Based on this statement, the Spiritual Deception Prevention Project at the JCRCNY stated:

On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: "Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists."[40]

The director of a counter-missionary group Torah Atlanta, Rabbi Efraim Davidson, stated that "the Jews for Jesus use aggressive proselytizing to target disenfranchised or unaffiliated Jews, Russian immigrants and college students" and that "their techniques are manipulative, deceptive and anti-Semitic."[41]

In his 1997 book The Vanishing American Jew: In Search of Jewish Identity for the Next Century, Alan Dershowitz wrote: "In America, and in other nations that separate church from state, one's Jewishness is a matter of self-definition ..." but notes: "I do not mean to include former Jews who practice Christianity under the deliberately misleading name Jews for Jesus. A Jew for Jesus already has a name: a Christian."[42] However, it should be noted that Dershowitz was not speaking as a rabbinical authority, most of whom hold that a Jew who is an apostate is still a Jew.

In an interview for Beliefnet, Orthodox Rabbi Irving Greenberg, the author of For the Sake of Heaven and Earth, said:

"But I have to recognize that there are people of ill will; there are Christian missionaries who still believe that Christianity is the only valid religion. There are Jews for Jesus who use the trappings of Judaism to bring people into a religion that teaches that Judaism is finished. Jews for Jesus are worse theologically than the mainstream of Catholicism or Protestantism, which now affirm that Judaism is a valid religion. Jews for Jesus say that it is not. They use the Jewish trappings, but de facto, they are teaching the classic Christian supersessionism--that Judaism was at best a foreshadowing of Christianity".[43]
The author of the book Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History David Klinghoffer expressed his concern in The Jewish Journal: "When Jews accept Jesus, they marry other Christians or their children do, thus disappearing into the Christian population."[25]

Concerning Christian-Jewish reconciliation and Christian missions to the Jews, Emil Fackenheim wrote:

"... Except in relations with Christians, the Christ of Christianity is not a Jewish issue. There simply can be no dialogue worthy of the name unless Christians accept — nay, treasure — the fact that Jews through the two millennia of Christianity have had an agenda of their own. There can be no Jewish-Christian dialogue worthy of the name unless one Christian activity is abandoned, missions to the Jews. It must be abandoned, moreover, not as a temporary strategy but in principle, as a bimillennial theological mistake. The cost of that mistake in Christian love and Jewish blood one hesitates to contemplate. ... A post-Holocaust Jew can still view Christian attempts to convert Jews as sincere and well intended. But even as such they are no longer acceptable: They have become attempts to do in one way what Hitler did in another."[44]

The unfullfilled prophecies above are some of the major reasons the Jews do not beleive Jesus is the Messiah.

They'll believe when He fulfills those prophecies at His Second Advent. But first the Orthodox Moshiach ben Yosef who they will accept must appear and be killed - this is most likely the anti-christ Messiah that allows the Third Temple of God to be built during the upcoming "peace-treaty" and 2-state solution that is in the works.

Still - you need to contact the Rabbi again and this time ask him about the two Moshiach's discussed in Orthdox Judaism. The antichrist of the New Testament sure fits the bill for their ben Yosef because he does not have to claim to be a "divine" being; just an ordinary Jewish man who will be seen as a world leader that they can accept. As you know, antichrist will be killed and then all will break loose against Israel as predicted in Orthodox before Moshiach ben David appears to rid the world of hatred and violence and settle peace upon this earth from Jerusalem.

They'll believe when He fulfills those prophecies at His Second Advent. But first the Orthodox Moshiach ben Yosef who they will accept must appear and be killed - this is most likely the anti-christ Messiah that allows the Third Temple of God to be built during the upcoming "peace-treaty" and 2-state solution that is in the works.

Still - you need to contact the Rabbi again and this time ask him about the two Moshiach's discussed in Orthdox Judaism. The antichrist of the New Testament sure fits the bill for their ben Yosef because he does not have to claim to be a "divine" being; just an ordinary Jewish man who will be seen as a world leader that they can accept. As you know, antichrist will be killed and then all will break loose against Israel as predicted in Orthodox before Moshiach ben David appears to rid the world of hatred and violence and settle peace upon this earth from Jerusalem.
You are free to ask the Rabbi for clarification, but you could also just research for yourself what Jews believe.

The 2 Moshiachs discussed in Judaism are David and Yosef, Yosef is the precussor to David. Both David and Yosef have obligations they are to fullfill in order to fullfill the prophecies.

Yosef and David are also not allegorys for the first and second "coming". One leads to the other, but there is still one messiah.

Yosef will appear prior to the coming of Messiah ben David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion. Jesus has not fullfilled those obligations

David will restore the Temple, regather the exiles of Israel, cause all nations of the earth to be united in peace, put an end to sin and evil, raise the dead and set up a blissful utopia headquartered in Jerusalem. In that day, 'the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea'

You are free to ask the Rabbi for clarification, but you could also just research for yourself what Jews believe.

The 2 Moshiachs discussed in Judaism are David and Yosef, Yosef is the precussor to David. Both David and Yosef have obligations they are to fullfill in order to fullfill the prophecies.

Yosef and David are also not allegorys for the first and second "coming". One leads to the other, but there is still one messiah.

Yosef will appear prior to the coming of Messiah ben David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion. Jesus has not fullfilled those obligations

David will restore the Temple, regather the exiles of Israel, cause all nations of the earth to be united in peace, put an end to sin and evil, raise the dead and set up a blissful utopia headquartered in Jerusalem. In that day, 'the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea'

You forgot the part where ben Yosef is killed in battle and then great persecution comes against all of Israel in a great war. Then, before all is annihilated is when ben David appears on the scene. ben Yosef and ben David do not co-exist at the same time.

That's why I'm saying... check with the Rabbi regarding Jewish prophecy on this. My info comes directly from an Orthodox Jewish friend in Israel who has explained the teachings in detail and I believe I had posted his info once before.

You forgot the part where ben Yosef is killed in battle and then great persecution comes against all of Israel in a great war. Then, before all is annihilated is when ben David appears on the scene. ben Yosef and ben David do not co-exist at the same time.

That's why I'm saying... check with the Rabbi regarding Jewish prophecy on this. My info comes directly from an Orthodox Jewish friend in Israel who has explained the teachings in detail and I believe I had posted his info once before.

I didnt forget, i just didnt get into the entire particulars of the events.

Yosef proceeds David, but Yosef still has certain things (prophecies) that will occur that havent yet.

I didnt forget, i just didnt get into the entire particulars of the events.

Yosef proceeds David, but Yosef still has certain things (prophecies) that will occur that havent yet.

OK - but following are some interesting tidbits about the scenarios that Orthodox Judaism expects to happen. My friend's explanation is better (IMO) because he cites several more Jewish passages, but for now this will help you see that there is an eerie parallel happening that encompasses Jewish, Muslim and Christian prophecies.
Remember, There Is Only One Truth:

Davidic kingdom, etc. Let me summarize the Rabbinic writings[14] with regards to Moshiach ben Yosef:

There will be a period of about seven years of terrible famines and other troubles. The land of Israel will at that time be under Non-Jewish control, and a leader of the tribe of Ephraim, will arise to lead militarily against these nations who control Jerusalem. He will be successful, but after his initial victory he will die in battle. This will cause a great mourning and many will lose faith. At that time (still within the seven years) the Moshiach Ben David will be revealed, he shall finish the battle. After which, he will resurrect all the dead, starting with the Moshiach Ben Yosef. Both of them will go up to Mount Zion to fulfill the prophecy in Ovadiah verse 21: "And the saviors (plural - both Messiahs) shall go up onto Mount Tzion and judge Mount Esav, and the kingdom will be for Hashem." There is the fulfillment of ALL the major prophesies like an end to war and a world at peace with the Jewish people in a restored Jerusalem with the third Temple.

The following points summarize this issue and are agreed to in all the Midrashim that deal with the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshiach ben Dovid.

1. They are two different people from two different tribal families.
2. They live at the same time.
3. Moshiach ben Yosef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to.
4. Moshiach ben Yosef is a warrior (Moshiach ben Dovid would also appear to be)
5. Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in BATTLE[15] and will be the first to be raised from the dead by Moshiach ben Dovid.
6. The period of time from when Moshiach ben Yosef first comes into prominence until he is resurrected after the Moshiach ben Dovid comes to his throne is very short, the longest period is under two years.
7. The basic chronology of events is that there is a seven-year period. It starts with continually problems, it starts to improve and then in the sixth year it gets worse again. In the seventh year there are great wars in which the Moshiach ben Yosef is first successful and then he is killed in that later part of the year. Many Jewish people will become depressed and fall away. At the end of the seven years Moshiach ben Dovid comes and finishes the job and there comes the resurrection of the dead.

There is one more aspect with regards to Moshiach ben Yosef that appears in Rabbinic literature that we need to address, and then we can return to the passage in the Talmud which opened up this paper and see how far off they are. In the work, Emunah V’Deos by Rabbi Saadiah Gaon, after a discussion of the end-times[16] he makes the following comment:

If we do not repent, the events of Ben Joseph will come to pass. But if we repent, they will not, and Messiah ben David will appear to us suddenly.[17]

Who is the Moshiach ben Yosef? (http://www.messiahtruth.com/yosef.html)

From the site

Maybe you should research what it is your claiming is your proof? Jews for Jesus is not a Jewish organization :killingme.

Jews for Jesus is a Christian Evangelical organization devoted to converting Jews and Secularists (from their What we Do (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/whatwedo)page).
Jews for Jesus claim they are a Jewish organization (a claim that is rejected by true Jewish Organizations (http://www.jcrcny.org/pdf/sdpp/MEETINGTHECHALLENG2.pdf)), which is based on Geography not because of their faith.



You just made the my point, JFJ claim they are a Jewish Org.
And your right. :buddies:

So your suggesting that Jewish people who convert are no longer Jewish so they can't speak as Jews. Interesting.

You just made the my point, JFJ claim they are a Jewish Org.
Are you sure about that? Because there is already a name for people who were Jewish that believe in Jesus

Christian
And your right. :buddies:
Where does Jews for Jesus claim they were followers of Judaism? Or do they claim they were Jews by Geography or Geneology?
So your suggesting that Jewish people who convert are no longer Jewish so they can't speak as Jews. Interesting.
I'm suggesting, just like the Jewish Organizations that were cited and ignored by you, that a Jew by Geography and/or Geneology is not the same as someone who follows Judaism.

OK - but following are some interesting tidbits about the scenarios that Orthodox Judaism expects to happen. My friend's explanation is better (IMO) because he cites several more Jewish passages, but for now this will help you see that there is an eerie parallel happening that encompasses Jewish, Muslim and Christian prophecies.
Remember, There Is Only One Truth:

Davidic kingdom, etc. Let me summarize the Rabbinic writings[14] with regards to Moshiach ben Yosef:

There will be a period of about seven years of terrible famines and other troubles. The land of Israel will at that time be under Non-Jewish control, and a leader of the tribe of Ephraim, will arise to lead militarily against these nations who control Jerusalem. He will be successful, but after his initial victory he will die in battle. This will cause a great mourning and many will lose faith. At that time (still within the seven years) the Moshiach Ben David will be revealed, he shall finish the battle. After which, he will resurrect all the dead, starting with the Moshiach Ben Yosef. Both of them will go up to Mount Zion to fulfill the prophecy in Ovadiah verse 21: "And the saviors (plural - both Messiahs) shall go up onto Mount Tzion and judge Mount Esav, and the kingdom will be for Hashem." There is the fulfillment of ALL the major prophesies like an end to war and a world at peace with the Jewish people in a restored Jerusalem with the third Temple.

The following points summarize this issue and are agreed to in all the Midrashim that deal with the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshiach ben Dovid.

1. They are two different people from two different tribal families.
2. They live at the same time.
3. Moshiach ben Yosef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to.
4. Moshiach ben Yosef is a warrior (Moshiach ben Dovid would also appear to be)
5. Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in BATTLE[15] and will be the first to be raised from the dead by Moshiach ben Dovid.
6. The period of time from when Moshiach ben Yosef first comes into prominence until he is resurrected after the Moshiach ben Dovid comes to his throne is very short, the longest period is under two years.
7. The basic chronology of events is that there is a seven-year period. It starts with continually problems, it starts to improve and then in the sixth year it gets worse again. In the seventh year there are great wars in which the Moshiach ben Yosef is first successful and then he is killed in that later part of the year. Many Jewish people will become depressed and fall away. At the end of the seven years Moshiach ben Dovid comes and finishes the job and there comes the resurrection of the dead.

There is one more aspect with regards to Moshiach ben Yosef that appears in Rabbinic literature that we need to address, and then we can return to the passage in the Talmud which opened up this paper and see how far off they are. In the work, Emunah V’Deos by Rabbi Saadiah Gaon, after a discussion of the end-times[16] he makes the following comment:

If we do not repent, the events of Ben Joseph will come to pass. But if we repent, they will not, and Messiah ben David will appear to us suddenly.[17]

Who is the Moshiach ben Yosef? (http://www.messiahtruth.com/yosef.html)

Why didnt you quote the verses, from that page, that explain the prerequisites that are detailed in regards to Yosef?

People will gather in Jerusalem to worship HaShem (verse 2-3)
War will end (verse 4)
The nations will be judged (verse 4)[

None of these have happened.

Why didnt you quote the verses, from that page, that explain the prerequisites that are detailed in regards to Yosef?

None of these have happened.

Because that is when Moshiach ben David arrives to end all war, etc.

ben Yosef doesn't end the war - he's killed in battle - remember?

Forgot to tell you thanks for the link. Its a good source reference for those who claim Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews as proof that Jews believe in Christ.
Because that is when Moshiach ben David arrives to end all war, etc.
Actually those are the prerequisites for Yosef. David has others (building the third temple, Jews knowing the torah are 2 of the biggies)

ben Yosef doesn't end the war - he's killed in battle - remember?

And when he's killed in battle, that sets other prophecies (to be fullfilled by David) in motion.

From your link (thanks btw its also a good reference for Messiah prophecies)

There will be a period of about seven years of terrible famines and other troubles. The land of Israel will at that time be under Non-Jewish control, and a leader of the tribe of Ephraim, (this is Yosef) will arise to lead militarily against these nations who control Jerusalem. (hasnt occured yet) He will be successful, but after his initial victory he will die in battle. This will cause a great mourning and many will lose faith. At that time (still within the seven years) the Moshiach Ben David will be revealed (after the fall of Yosef, David will come, within the 7 years of terrible times. If Jesus was Yosef, why didnt David come?), he shall finish the battle. After which, he will resurrect all the dead, starting with the Moshiach Ben Yosef. Both of them will go up to Mount Zion to fulfill the prophecy in Ovadiah verse 21: "And the saviors (plural - both Messiahs) shall go up onto Mount Tzion and judge Mount Esav, and the kingdom will be for Hashem." There is the fulfillment of ALL the major prophesies like an end to war and a world at peace with the Jewish people in a restored Jerusalem with the third Temple.

The following points summarize this issue and are agreed to in all the Midrashim that deal with the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshiach ben Dovid.


They are two different people from two different tribal families. Jesus can not be both Yosef and David
They live at the same time. Unfullfilled prophecy
Moshiach ben Yosef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to.
Moshiach ben Yosef is a warrior (Moshiach ben Dovid would also appear to be) Unfullfilled prophecy
Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in BATTLE[15] and will be the first to be raised from the dead by Moshiach ben Dovid. (Within the 7 year timeline, has not happened. Another unfullfilled prophecy)
The period of time from when Moshiach ben Yosef first comes into prominence until he is resurrected after the Moshiach ben Dovid comes to his throne is very short, the longest period is under two years. (Unfullfilled prophecy)
The basic chronology of events is that there is a seven-year period. It starts with continually problems, it starts to improve and then in the sixth year it gets worse again. In the seventh year there are great wars in which the Moshiach ben Yosef is first successful and then he is killed in that later part of the year. Many Jewish people will become depressed and fall away. At the end of the seven years Moshiach ben Dovid comes and finishes the job and there comes the resurrection of the dead. (This is what Judaism is still waiting for the Messiah to fullfill)

During His Ministry - 3 years(?) Jesus had thousands of Jewish followers, no?

As Starman3000 has quoted earlier, He fed crowds of 4,000 and 9,000 people, at gatherings in the hills and countryside.

The followers of Jesus Christ did not just simply vanish. Yes, they had to hide themselves from the Roman Oppression, but the fruit of their family offspring lives on.......

Forgot to tell you thanks for the link. Its a good source reference for those who claim Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews as proof that Jews believe in Christ.

Actually those are the prerequisites for Yosef. David has others (building the third temple, Jews knowing the torah are 2 of the biggies)



And when he's killed in battle, that sets other prophecies (to be fullfilled by David) in motion.

From your link (thanks btw its also a good reference for Messiah prophecies)



Yes, it is quite interesting looking at this all from the Jewish perspective. Some things begin to fall into place even though there are many disagreements between the acceptance of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.

BTW: Here are some possible scenarios of what Jews and Israelites are waiting to have happen:

1.) Soon a Middle East peace-pact and the 2-state solution will give the Jewish people an opportunity to reinstate Temple Worship.

2.) All the exact blueprints for the Third Temple are ready for such time that construction will be allowed.

3.) Jewish Priests in Israel are now ready to perform the Temple rites and they already have the priestly garments and artifacts on standby.

4.) No doubt, Jews are expectant of Moshiach. As the site indicates, some believe they would be able to bypass the "ben Yosef part" and just usher in Moshiach ben David but that would require all of the Jews to repent. So the likely scenario is that not all Jews will repent, thus, Israel and the Jews will have to go through the calamities of the first Moshiach (ben Yosef) before Moshiach ben David can appear.

5.) If ben Yosef is the one to bring about the building of the next Temple, Jews can expect the major war and problems that will result.

6.) If ben David is the one who establishes the next Temple, there will be an immediate cease of hatred and wars throughout the world and the Messianic era of God's peace will immediately be ushered in.

7.) Orthodox Jews pray daily for the soon return of Moshiach. Whichever ONE will appear remains to be seen.


Without a doubt, my personal faith is that Jesus is in fact Yeshua HaMashiach and that the New Testament prophecies (written by Jewish followers of Yeshua) will come to pass.

Yes, it is quite interesting looking at this all from the Jewish perspective. Some things begin to fall into place even though there are many disagreements between the acceptance of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.

BTW: Here are some possible scenarios of what Jews and Israelites are waiting to have happen:

1.) Soon a Middle East peace-pact and the 2-state solution will give the Jewish people an opportunity to reinstate Temple Worship.

2.) All the exact blueprints for the Third Temple are ready for such time that construction will be allowed.

3.) Jewish Priests in Israel are now ready to perform the Temple rites and they already have the priestly garments and artifacts on standby.

4.) No doubt, Jews are expectant of Moshiach. As the site indicates, some believe they would be able to bypass the "ben Yosef part" and just usher in Moshiach ben David but that would require all of the Jews to repent. So the likely scenario is that not all Jews will repent, thus, Israel and the Jews will have to go through the calamities of the first Moshiach (ben Yosef) before Moshiach ben David can appear.

5.) If ben Yosef is the one to bring about the building of the next Temple, Jews can expect the major war and problems that will result.

6.) If ben David is the one who establishes the next Temple, there will be an immediate cease of hatred and wars throughout the world and the Messianic era of God's peace will immediately be ushered in.

7.) Orthodox Jews pray daily for the soon return of Moshiach. Whichever ONE will appear remains to be seen.


Without a doubt, my personal faith is that Jesus is in fact Yeshua HaMashiach and that the New Testament prophecies (written by Jewish followers of Yeshua) will come to pass.

No matter what some (asshats) have posted i understand there is a difference between the Christian and Jewish faiths. The post I created (that was deleted) addressed this, and asked what Old Testament prophecies did Jesus fullfill. And where does the second coming concept derive from since it is not listed in the Old Testament?

The post I created (that was deleted)Called out for whining in one thread, on to whining in another :lmao:

No matter what some (asshats) have posted i understand there is a difference between the Christian and Jewish faiths. The post I created (that was deleted) addressed this, and asked what Old Testament prophecies did Jesus fullfill. And where does the second coming concept derive from since it is not listed in the Old Testament?

There is a quote that states: "I Am The First and I Am The Last"

Jews await two Moshiachs but view this according to their interpretation by the sages. So, yes there are the arguments of why Jesus could not be the prophesied Moshiach. So the argument will continue until it is finally settled of what is The Truth.

As stated, without a doubt, my faith is that Yeshua appeared on earth for the purpose of Atoning for the sins of all mankind; not Jew only but Gentiles as well.

The accounts of His Resurrection indicate that He rose from the dead, is Alive today and He will return at the appointed time to establish God's Millennial Kingdom on earth - ruling from Jerusalem.

The Atoning process is something all Jews are aware of but it is not possible to cover the sins of the Gentiles. For that, Judaism has enacted the Noachide Laws that Gentiles must follow in order to be acceptable to God. That's another subject for discussion though so if you want to do some more reading, do a word search for Noachide Laws. If you are not Jewish (of the tribe of Judah) or descendant from another Israeli tribe, this is what Judaism expects for you to be obedient to.

This message is hidden because This_person is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because This_person is on your ignore list.

Want to make a bet, that this post will be deleted? :whistle:

Vrai stated TP did not report you...............

Want to make a bet, that this post will be deleted? :whistle:

Vrai stated TP did not report you...............

This_Misrepresentation was on ignore (and told he would only be selectivly replied to) before the deletions

This_Misrepresentation was on ignore (and told he would only be selectivly replied to) before the deletions

Gotcha. :thumbsup:

See? There's that Free Will thing you've been hearing about! :lol: