"All in all, yesterday was an extraordinary day at the Roman Catholic cathedral in Portsmouth as thousands of people queued around the block to revere the relics of a French saint who died more than a century ago."

More at source: Thousands wait at Portsmouth cathedral to see remains of St Thérèse | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/16/st-therese-relics-uk)

"All in all, yesterday was an extraordinary day at the Roman Catholic cathedral in Portsmouth as thousands of people queued around the block to revere the relics of a French saint who died more than a century ago."

More at source: Thousands wait at Portsmouth cathedral to see remains of St Thérèse | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/16/st-therese-relics-uk)

Hmmm... Religious rituals and traditions that Jesus spoke against:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
( Matthew 15:8-10 )


BTW: The Shi'a have a similar tradition to honor Ali;

and during the traditions of the hajj Pilgrimage, Muslims circumbabulate around the Ka'ba several times and then kiss the ka'ba stone in following the example of Muhammad. Then they engage in throwing stones at pillars which they believe are being thrown at the shaytan.

All rituals.

Hmmm... Religious rituals and traditions that Jesus spoke against:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: ( Matthew 15:8-10 )


BTW: The Shi'a have a similar tradition to honor Ali;
and during the traditions of the hajj Pilgrimage, Muslims circumbabulate around the Ka'ba several times and then kiss the ka'ba stone in following the example of Muhammad. Then they engage in throwing stones at pillars which they believe are being thrown at the shaytan.

All rituals.

"All rituals.", what is your point, rituals are bad?

Jews, Buddhists and Hindus do it too.

Baptism and Communion are also rituals.

Does your particular brand of Christianity have anything that could be construed as a ritual?

I finally find a good post from Nonno. Thank you.

"All rituals.", what is your point, rituals are bad?

Jews, Buddhists and Hindus do it too.

Baptism and Communion are also rituals.

Does your particular brand of Christianity have anything that could be construed as a ritual?

Don't forget marriage. :yay:

I finally find a good post from Nonno. Thank you.

It is, indeed - rare.

"All rituals.", what is your point, rituals are bad?

Jews, Buddhists and Hindus do it too.

Baptism and Communion are also rituals.

Does your particular brand of Christianity have anything that could be construed as a ritual?

C'mon nonno - There was an obvious reason you posted the article.

Elevating a person to sainthood and establishing a "ritual" in his/her honor has become a tradition and religious ritual of man - not of God. Yes, nearly all religions have their "rituals" that are dictated by the specific denomination and belief regardless of what organized religion it is.

My point is that religious rituals, traditions, repetitive prayers and commandments of men may be what most people think is pleasing to God - but Jesus is the one who spoke against the type of rituals and traditions that are done out of just going through the motions and paying insincere lip service when the "worshipper's heart" is not really given over to the praise and worship of God.

In other words, you do a repetitive ritual all your life because religious leadership expects it and mandates it as part of your creed. Those actions may honor man but they do not honor God. That's what I was pointing out and as written in the New Testament words that Jesus spoke:

(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:6-9)

C'mon nonno - There was an obvious reason you posted the article.

Elevating a person to sainthood and establishing a "ritual" in his/her honor has become a tradition and religious ritual of man - not of God. Yes, nearly all religions have their "rituals" that are dictated by the specific denomination and belief regardless of what organized religion it is.

My point is that religious rituals, traditions, repetitive prayers and commandments of men may be what most people think is pleasing to God - but Jesus is the one who spoke against the type of rituals and traditions that are done out of just going through the motions and paying insincere lip service when the "worshipper's heart" is not really given over to the praise and worship of God.

In other words, you do a repetitive ritual all your life because religious leadership expects it and mandates it as part of your creed. Those actions may honor man but they do not honor God. That's what I was pointing out and as written in the New Testament words that Jesus spoke:

(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:6-9)


Hmmm... What do you think is the "obvious" reason I posted the article?

I think a well ordered society requires rituals and traditions, religious as well as secular.

I think the rituals and traditions of all faiths should be tolerated as long as they are in consonance with secular laws. They should be respected, at the very least to the extent that precludes demonization for whatever motive.

Now getting back to, and expanding upon one of my questions to you, does your particular brand of Christianity have anything that could be construed as a man made ritual or tradition and if so, why do you continue to practice it?

Hmmm... What do you think is the "obvious" reason I posted the article?

You're in the religion forum and you are making a statement with the post (without having to add comments - although it would be better if you add some comment with your personal view rather than just a video or article and nothing else.)


Now getting back to, and expanding upon one of my questions to you, does your particular brand of Christianity have anything that could be construed as a man made ritual or tradition and if so, why do you continue to practice it?

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)

That means no need to do "religous rituals" to prove anything to God. God wants a person to prove his/her faith through a direct spiritual relationship with Him and daily actions of one's life.

Jesus spoke against "rituals" that are observed through the commandments of man and that people follow along with out of "religious obligation" and not out of true worship to God.

There is a difference between "religion" and "Relationship" when it comes to honoring and praising God.

You're in the religion forum and you are making a statement with the post (without having to add comments - although it would be better if you add some comment with your personal view rather than just a video or article and nothing else.) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36) That means no need to do "religous rituals" to prove anything to God. God wants a person to prove his/her faith through a direct spiritual relationship with Him and daily actions of one's life Jesus spoke against "rituals" that are observed through the commandments of man and that people follow along with out of "religious obligation" and not out of true worship to God. There is a difference between "religion" and "Relationship" when it comes to honoring and praising God. That means no need to do "religous rituals" to prove anything to God. God wants a person to prove his/her faith through a direct spiritual relationship with Him and daily actions of one's life. Jesus spoke against "rituals" that are observed through the commandments of man and that people follow along with out of "religious obligation" and not out of true worship to God.

What "statement" do you think I made? The article is interesting and of a religious nature so why not post it in a religion forum?

As to including a comment, that is discretionary.

After sorting thru all the extraneous verbiage, can I conclude that your particular brand of Christianity has no man made rituals or traditions, not even a " Let's start our meeting with a prayer" ritual or celebrating Jesus' birth every year?



BTW Some members may be interested in reading;
1406807710

What "statement" do you think I made? The article is interesting and of a religious nature so why not post it in a religion forum?

As to including a comment, that is discretionary.

After sorting thru all the extraneous verbiage, can I conclude that your particular brand of Christianity has no man made rituals or traditions, not even a " Let's start our meeting with a prayer" ritual or celebrating Jesus' birth every year?

BTW Some members may be interested in reading;
1406807710

Yes - you can conclude that.

BTW: Jesus' Birthday is not December 25th. That is another misguided doctrinal teaching/ritual introduced by man - not God.

Starting a meeting with a prayer would not be considered a "ritual" unless the words in the prayer are repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered. It is meaningless to God if one's heart is not in what is being spoken directly to Him. As stated by the context of Jesus' teaching, that would only be paying lip-service and not true honor.

Yes - you can conclude that.

BTW: Jesus' Birthday is not December 25th. That is another misguided doctrinal teaching/ritual introduced by man - not God.

Starting a meeting with a prayer would not be considered a "ritual" unless the words in the prayer are repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered. It is meaningless to God if one's heart is not in what is being spoken directly to Him. As stated by the context of Jesus' teaching, that would only be paying lip-service and not true honor.


OK, we've established that your particular brand of Christianity has no man made rituals or traditions including celebrating Jesus' birthday.

I agree, the date of Jesus' birth is controversial.

Can you provide an example of a prayer that is "repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered" ?

OK, we've established that your particular brand of Christianity has no man made rituals or traditions including celebrating Jesus' birthday.

I agree, the date of Jesus' birth is controversial.

Can you provide an example of a prayer that is "repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered" ?

No I cannot provide that for you but there are many within this forum who possibly can. Maybe someone can answer you on that one. If not, I am sure the Internet could provide the info.

No I cannot provide that for you but there are many within this forum who possibly can. Maybe someone can answer you on that one. If not, I am sure the Internet could provide the info.

Can we all assume that you do not celebrate Christmas??

St. Therese was an extraordinarily holy woman who devoted her entire self to Jesus Christ. My oldest daughter is names for St. Therese, in hopes that imitation of Therese will bring daugter closer to the Lord God.

Because her "brand" of Christianity (namely, Catholicism) doesn't agree with you, doesn't make her of the ilk Jesus rebuked.

Can we all assume that you do not celebrate Christmas??

I celebrate the birth of the New Testament Jesus (Yeshua) seven days a week in praise and thanks for Him saving a wretched sinner like me.

I don't judge anyone for participating in celebrating that day of the year if it brings Christ into focus, HOWEVER, let's be honest: December 25th is NOT Jesus' Birthday as proclaimed by any denomination. That's what I'm saying.

Another perspective: December 25th is NOT my birthday that I should receive gifts nor expect gifts. It's just that, like many other religious holidays it has been turned into a commercial business venture not only by the "church" but by global commerce as well.

Truly, Jesus proclaimed:

It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. (Matthew 21:13)

Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. (Mark 11:17)

It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves. (Luke 19:46)

St. Therese was an extraordinarily holy woman who devoted her entire self to Jesus Christ. My oldest daughter is names for St. Therese, in hopes that imitation of Therese will bring daugter closer to the Lord God.

Therese is a very pretty name and I am sure that your daughter exemplifies all the good in what you have taught her and prayed for her to be. (Proverbs 22:6) However, many people name their children after someone whom the parent(s) admire, look up to and wish they could be like. Truthfully, even that does not guarantee the outcome and many times the pressure to live up to high expectations is then put on the child. (not saying that that is true in your case)

So, in effect, if parents name their daughter "Dorothy" in admiration of Dorothy Hammil, it doesn't mean the daughter is going to grow up to be an Olympic world champion figure skater. And, if a son is named George (after George Foreman) it doesn't mean he is going to grow up to be a world champion boxer who markets a cooking grill with his name on it.


Because her "brand" of Christianity (namely, Catholicism) doesn't agree with you, doesn't make her of the ilk Jesus rebuked.

That is not what I said nor implied. What I was stating by my comments was that people are placing other people in exclusive positions of honor and respect and given the name of "saint" when we are told that only God is to receive honor and glory and God is no respecter of persons.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts 10:34)

As far as the definition of "saint" is concerned, the Bible states that all who are repentant, regenerated spiritually and washed by the Atoning Blood of Christ in faith are called "saints". Not by our merit but by the clothing of righteousness imputed into the believer by the Promise of Salvation through Christ and cleansed by The Blood of The Lamb.

The RCC and other religions may admire, honor and praise other individuals as "exemplary" people to pattern your life after when the fact is we are to look to Jesus as our sole (soul) example to follow and realize that we, nor anyone else, are not really worthy at all to receive any honor and praise that belongs exclusively to Him and Him alone. Sure this may go against what you believe but I'm telling you a hard truth: Giving religious praise, honor and admiration to any other person for their achievements is takiing from the honor and praise that belongs only to God - and God is a jealous God. This is what got many of the children of Israel into trouble - when they began holding others up in high regard and forgetting that all honor and praise goes to God for His help. And under the New Covenant we praise and honor Jesus Christ, the Son of God for His Achievements that no one else can compare to.

And libby; I still love you as a friend. :love:

I celebrate the birth of the New Testament Jesus (Yeshua) seven days a week in praise and thanks for Him saving a wretched sinner like me.

Nothing different on Dec. 25? Your children never had a Christmas tree? Presents on Christmas morning? Sang Christmas hymns?
Wow! Are you a Jehovah's Witness, because I've always taken you for a Bible Christian like my own relatives are, and they certainly have no problem setting aside Dec.25.
Likewise, the celebration of Easter (Resurrection) Sunday changes with the full moon. Should I assume that your celebration of the blessed event changes year to year with the culture that you live in? Or, have you gone back through the Hebrew calenders to figure out precisely when that annual celebration should be, and reserved your celebrations for that day?
Or, again, should we only be celebrating the events that you have interpreted the Bible to permit?

Nothing different on Dec. 25? Your children never had a Christmas tree? Presents on Christmas morning? Sang Christmas hymns? Wow! Are you a Jehovah's Witness, because I've always taken you for a Bible Christian like my own relatives are, and they certainly have no problem setting aside Dec.25.
Likewise, the celebration of Easter (Resurrection) Sunday changes with the full moon. Should I assume that your celebration of the blessed event changes year to year with the culture that you live in? Or, have you gone back through the Hebrew calenders to figure out precisely when that annual celebration should be, and reserved your celebrations for that day?
Or, again, should we only be celebrating the events that you have interpreted the Bible to permit?

C'mon libby - I didn't say that at all! I said I celebrate The Lord's Birthday 7 days a week - that includes the traditional 25th of Dec. in which season there are cards sent to friends and family, gifts for my son and wife and it helps bring Christ into as much focus for the family as any other day. Likewise, the "traditional" Easter is celebrated with family and again it helps bring Christ's Atonement and Resurrection into focus - but why celebrate that only one day out of the year! One of the other points I was making is that it all boils down to commercialism in the guise of "religious" holy days - which Christ and the Apostles were against.

Colossians, Chapter 2, verses:

8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Again - What I was getting at all along is that December 25th is NOT the actual birthday. If historians could prove which day it was that would be one thing but December 25th is a pagan holiday that was celebrated by pagan Romans.

As an example: Do you celebrate your birthday 3 or 4 months after the real date of when you were born? As much as we have all been given over to accept that date of December 25th as Christ's Birthday, it is Not True. So why claim that it is? That's what I'm saying.

"The fact is that He was born, that He came into the world to atone for our sins, that He was resurrected to eternal life, and that He’s alive today. This is what we should celebrate, as we are told in the Old Testament in such passages as Zechariah 2:10: “'Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,' declares the LORD.” Further, the angel that announced the birth to the shepherds brought “good news of great joy that will be for all the people” (Luke 2:10). Surely here is the cause for celebration every day, not just once a year."

Was Jesus born on December 25? (http://www.gotquestions.org/December-25.html)

C'mon libby - I didn't say that at all! I said I celebrate The Lord's Birthday 7 days a week - that includes the traditional 25th of Dec. in which season there are cards sent to friends and family, gifts for my son and wife and it helps bring Christ into as much focus for the family as any other day. Likewise, the "traditional" Easter is celebrated with family and again it helps bring Christ's Atonement and Resurrection into focus - but why celebrate that only one day out of the year! One of the other points I was making is that it all boils down to commercialism in the guise of "religious" holy days - which Christ and the Apostles were against.

Colossians, Chapter 2, verses:

8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Again - What I was getting at all along is that December 25th is NOT the actual birthday. If historians could prove which day it was that would be one thing but December 25th is a pagan holiday that was celebrated by pagan Romans.

As an example: Do you celebrate your birthday 3 or 4 months after the real date of when you were born? As much as we have all been given over to accept that date of December 25th as Christ's Birthday, it is Not True. So why claim that it is? That's what I'm saying.

"The fact is that He was born, that He came into the world to atone for our sins, that He was resurrected to eternal life, and that He’s alive today. This is what we should celebrate, as we are told in the Old Testament in such passages as Zechariah 2:10: “'Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,' declares the LORD.” Further, the angel that announced the birth to the shepherds brought “good news of great joy that will be for all the people” (Luke 2:10). Surely here is the cause for celebration every day, not just once a year."

Was Jesus born on December 25? (http://www.gotquestions.org/December-25.html)

Well, since you reference this site for the historical explaination of Dec. 25, I'll go with it. Some of the sites I found credit Constantine with setting the date (in cooperation) with "the Church".
My point is, however, as you have come to expect from our exchanges. Why do you not condemn this "ritual", and in fact, participate in it, when we can know categorically that it is a result of mingling with pagan practice?

Well, since you reference this site for the historical explaination of Dec. 25, I'll go with it. Some of the sites I found credit Constantine with setting the date (in cooperation) with "the Church".
My point is, however, as you have come to expect from our exchanges. Why do you not condemn this "ritual", and in fact, participate in it, when we can know categorically that it is a result of mingling with pagan practice?

An excellent question for Starman. I'm afraid it will require some serious convoluted logic on his part to get around the red flag of hypocrisy. I think this is a classic case of someone having a beam in his eye while fussing about the mote in another's.

OK, we've established that your particular brand of Christianity has no man made rituals or traditions including celebrating Jesus' birthday.

I agree, the date of Jesus' birth is controversial.

Can you provide an example of a prayer that is "repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered" ?

I can provide one.
Rev. 4:8, "The four living creatures...Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

Hmmm...Starman???

I can provide one.
Rev. 4:8, "The four living creatures...Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

Hmmm...Starman???

Nonno asked:
Can you provide an example of a prayer that is "repetitive and structured by man and followed in unison by those gathered" ?

What you quoted was a description of angels in heaven praising God but it is not a prayer or praise structured by man.

Well, since you reference this site for the historical explaination of Dec. 25, I'll go with it. Some of the sites I found credit Constantine with setting the date (in cooperation) with "the Church".
My point is, however, as you have come to expect from our exchanges. Why do you not condemn this "ritual", and in fact, participate in it, when we can know categorically that it is a result of mingling with pagan practice?

Now that you and others know the Truth are you and others willing to condemn it as you ask me to - or will you still participate in celebrating December 25th as the day of Christ's Birth?

Each time I have been asked by someone what I am "wanting for Christmas" I reply that it isn't my birthday that I should expect gifts nor is it really the actual birth of Christ.

BTW: Did you also realize that the 3 Wise Men never really visited the newborn Christ-Child while He lay in the manger as the church has led us to believe?

Now that you and others know the Truth are you and others willing to condemn it as you ask me to - or will you still participate in celebrating December 25th as the day of Christ's Birth?

Each time I have been asked by someone what I am "wanting for Christmas" I reply that it isn't my birthday that I should expect gifts nor is it really the actual birth of Christ.

BTW: Did you also realize that the 3 Wise Men never really visited the newborn Christ-Child while He lay in the manger as the church has led us to believe?

You didn't answer the question. But, I'll humor you. We are not the ones condemning "rituals" as man-made institutions that take the focus off of Christ, you are. However, if you celebrate Christmas, you therefore do not live by your own rules (or those you have erroneously) interpreted out of the Bible)

As to the choir of angels, are you suggesting that we should not be imitating exactly the behaviors we see in Revelations? Should we not, day and night without ceasing, be saying such as, "Glory to God in the Highest"?

I'm sure you'll enlighten us on what they heck you are talking about re: the wise men. Or are you just splitting hairs because Matthew clearly states that the Magi (or men with greater-than-average knowledge) prostrated themselves before Him in Bethlehem.

You didn't answer the question. But, I'll humor you. We are not the ones condemning "rituals" as man-made institutions that take the focus off of Christ, you are. However, if you celebrate Christmas, you therefore do not live by your own rules (or those you have erroneously) interpreted out of the Bible)

As to the choir of angels, are you suggesting that we should not be imitating exactly the behaviors we see in Revelations? Should we not, day and night without ceasing, be saying such as, "Glory to God in the Highest"?

The New Testament teachings of Christ are the ones that speak about rituals, traditions of men and praying in "vain repetitions". Your argument is not with me, it is with the teaching of the New Testament. I only pass along the info as we are taught in the Bible.

I'm sure you'll enlighten us on what they heck you are talking about re: the wise men. Or are you just splitting hairs because Matthew clearly states that the Magi (or men with greater-than-average knowledge) prostrated themselves before Him in Bethlehem.

Here is Truth:

Question: "What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)?"

Answer: We assume that there were three wise men because of the three gifts that were given: gold, incense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11). However, the Bible does not say there were only three wise men. There could have been many more. Tradition says that there were three and that their names were Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar, but since the Bible does not say, we have no way of knowing whether the tradition is accurate.

It is a common misconception that the wise men visited Jesus at the stable on the night of His birth. In fact, the wise men came days, months, or possibly even years later. That is why Matthew 2:11 says the wise men visited and worshiped Jesus in a house, not at the stable.
We know that the magi were wise men from "the East," most likely Persia, or modern-day Iran. This means the wise men traveled 800 to 900 miles to see the Christ child. Most likely, the magi knew of the writings of the prophet Daniel, who in time past had been the chief of the court seers in Persia. Daniel 9:24-27 includes a prophecy which gives a timeline for the birth of the Messiah. Also, the magi may have been aware of the prophecy of Balaam (who was from the town of Pethor on the Euphrates River near Persia) in Numbers 24:17. Balaam's prophecy specifically mentions a “star coming out of Jacob.”

The wise men were guided to look for the King of the Jews by a miraculous stellar event, the "Star of Bethlehem," which they called "His star" (Matthew 2:2). They consulted with King Herod in Jerusalem concerning the birth of Christ and were so directed to Bethlehem (Matthew 2:4-8). They followed God's guidance joyfully (Matthew 2:10). Their gifts for Jesus were costly, and they worshiped Him. God warned them in a dream against returning to Herod, so, in defiance of the king, they left Judea by another route (Matthew 2:12).

So, the magi were men who 1) read and believed God's Word, 2) sought Jesus, 3) recognized the worth of Christ, 4) humbled themselves to worship Jesus, and 5) obeyed God rather than man. They were truly wise men!

What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)? (http://www.gotquestions.org/three-wise-men.html)

The New Testament teachings of Christ are the ones that speak about rituals, traditions of men and praying in "vain repetitions". Your argument is not with me, it is with the teaching of the New Testament. I only pass along the info as we are taught in the Bible.



Here is Truth:

Question: "What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)?"

Answer: We assume that there were three wise men because of the three gifts that were given: gold, incense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11). However, the Bible does not say there were only three wise men. There could have been many more. Tradition says that there were three and that their names were Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar, but since the Bible does not say, we have no way of knowing whether the tradition is accurate.

It is a common misconception that the wise men visited Jesus at the stable on the night of His birth. In fact, the wise men came days, months, or possibly even years later. That is why Matthew 2:11 says the wise men visited and worshiped Jesus in a house, not at the stable.
We know that the magi were wise men from "the East," most likely Persia, or modern-day Iran. This means the wise men traveled 800 to 900 miles to see the Christ child. Most likely, the magi knew of the writings of the prophet Daniel, who in time past had been the chief of the court seers in Persia. Daniel 9:24-27 includes a prophecy which gives a timeline for the birth of the Messiah. Also, the magi may have been aware of the prophecy of Balaam (who was from the town of Pethor on the Euphrates River near Persia) in Numbers 24:17. Balaam's prophecy specifically mentions a “star coming out of Jacob.”

The wise men were guided to look for the King of the Jews by a miraculous stellar event, the "Star of Bethlehem," which they called "His star" (Matthew 2:2). They consulted with King Herod in Jerusalem concerning the birth of Christ and were so directed to Bethlehem (Matthew 2:4-8). They followed God's guidance joyfully (Matthew 2:10). Their gifts for Jesus were costly, and they worshiped Him. God warned them in a dream against returning to Herod, so, in defiance of the king, they left Judea by another route (Matthew 2:12).

So, the magi were men who 1) read and believed God's Word, 2) sought Jesus, 3) recognized the worth of Christ, 4) humbled themselves to worship Jesus, and 5) obeyed God rather than man. They were truly wise men!

What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)? (http://www.gotquestions.org/three-wise-men.html)

"Vain repetition", there is the key. "Repetition" itself is not against the Bible.

"Vain repetition", there is the key. "Repetition" itself is not against the Bible.

In Jesus’ Words:
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.(Matthew 6:7-8)

The point is "repetition" is considered as being vain when it is done out of expectation that that is what God wants to hear. God wants the prayers of His people to be sincere, heartfelt and in their own words instead of "canned phrases" that are expectant of congregants who repeat them only out of directives of any church leadership.

In Jesus’ Words:
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.(Matthew 6:7-8)

The point is "repetition" is considered as being vain when it is done out of expectation that that is what God wants to hear. God wants the prayers of His people to be sincere, heartfelt and in their own words instead of "canned phrases" that are expectant of congregants who repeat them only out of directives of any church leadership.

Congregants are responsible for their own relationship with Jesus Christ. Repetition won't hinder a relationship for one who is seeking Christ, nor will it help the soul who is not seeking Christ. So whether someone repeats, or just plain babbles in order to appear pious the result is the same.

Congregants are responsible for their own relationship with Jesus Christ.

Exactly Right! Ye Must Be Born Again as Jesus proclaimed in order to establish that relationship! The "Church" cannot save you nor can a church guarantee salvation just by being a member. That is why there is no organized religion on earth that can claim exclusivity on having the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. As you mentioned, Salvation is based on the personal relationship with Jesus as Lord and Saviour of one's life.

Repetition won't hinder a relationship for one who is seeking Christ, nor will it help the soul who is not seeking Christ. So whether someone repeats, or just plain babbles in order to appear pious the result is the same.

As stated, various organized religions teach and encourage vain repetitions and "babblings" - believing that it is piety to God. Paul's teaching also has a clear message warning about that type of worship which has been going on all along. ( 1 Corinthians: Chapters 12, 13 & 14 )

The late Dr. Walter Martin, Christian lecturer and Apologist, presented excellent discussions that warned believers to prayerfully test all denominational teachings with the guidelines of Biblical context and to speak up and question whenever doctrinal errors appeared to be coming from the pulpit.

You didn't answer the question. But, I'll humor you. We are not the ones condemning "rituals" as man-made institutions that take the focus off of Christ, you are. However, if you celebrate Christmas, you therefore do not live by your own rules (or those you have erroneously) interpreted out of the Bible)

I'm still waiting to see how Starman attempts to justify this. :tap:

I'm still waiting to see how Starman attempts to justify this. :tap:

C'mon, R1, you know that it's only because his heart is in the right place that it's okay to celebrate a pagan holiday.

BTW: Jesus' Birthday is not December 25th. That is another misguided doctrinal teaching/ritual introduced by man - not God.

A "misguided doctrinal teaching/ritual" that YOU participate in, believing and preaching to the rest of us that such things are not pleasing to God. Same with Easter, isn't it? Does Scripture tell us to celebrate the day of the Lord's Resurrection? How can you justify these holy days for yourself, yet breathe down my neck (as a Catholic) for also celebrating the Feast of the Annunciation or the Ascension? (example) We celebrate daily throughout the world the institution of the Eucharist (the Last Supper), yet you think it's a meaningless ritual. Well, Starman, as stated before, these celebrations of the Catholic Church are meant to remind us each and every day of Jesus Christ, His Incarnation, Redemption, Death, Resurrection and Ascension. I will re-iterate, they do not "earn" a person salvation who is not seeking, and they do not hinder those who are. Yet you and IT have made consistent, broad brush statements about the motives and sincerity of Catholics and the Catholic Church.
You really need to take the plank out of your own eye.
Oh, and I still love you as a friend in Christ. :whistle:

I'm still waiting to see how Starman attempts to justify this. :tap:

:doh:

As I previously posted:

C'mon libby (and now Radiant1) - I didn't say that at all! I said I celebrate The Lord's Birthday 7 days a week - that includes the traditional 25th of Dec. in which season there are cards sent to friends and family, gifts for my son and wife and it helps bring Christ into as much focus for the family as any other day. Likewise, the "traditional" Easter is celebrated with family and again it helps bring Christ's Atonement and Resurrection into focus - but why celebrate that only one day out of the year! One of the other points I was making is that it all boils down to commercialism in the guise of "religious" holy days - which Christ and the Apostles were against.

I have already stated that I do not judge anyone for celebrating these days if it helps bring Christ into focus. However, the fact that I also acknowledge the "accepted celebration days" and partake of them has no bearing on the fact that I have pointed out that these days are NOT the true days of "Christ's Birth" and even of "Christ's Resurrection". That's the point I am making and if you now realize and acknowledge that as Truth as well are you going to stop celebrating them?

Remembering the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ are all important reminders that our Saviour came into this world to bring Salvation to mankind, but, again, when December 25th comes around, you now know that this was not the true birth date of Christ - so why claim that it is?

:doh:

As I previously posted:

C'mon libby (and now Radiant1) - I didn't say that at all! I said I celebrate The Lord's Birthday 7 days a week - that includes the traditional 25th of Dec. in which season there are cards sent to friends and family, gifts for my son and wife and it helps bring Christ into as much focus for the family as any other day. Likewise, the "traditional" Easter is celebrated with family and again it helps bring Christ's Atonement and Resurrection into focus - but why celebrate that only one day out of the year! One of the other points I was making is that it all boils down to commercialism in the guise of "religious" holy days - which Christ and the Apostles were against.

I have already stated that I do not judge anyone for celebrating these days if it helps bring Christ into focus. However, the fact that I also acknowledge the "accepted celebration days" and partake of them has no bearing on the fact that I have pointed out that these days are NOT the true days of "Christ's Birth" and even of "Christ's Resurrection". That's the point I am making and if you now realize and acknowledge that as Truth as well are you going to stop celebrating them?

Remembering the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ are all important reminders that our Saviour came into this world to bring Salvation to mankind, but, again, when December 25th comes around, you now know that this was not the true birth date of Christ - so why claim that it is?

I'm fairly certain that the majority of Christians are mindful of our salvation every day. You're not special in that regard.

You may protest that it is not your birthday, but you also already admitted that you do partake in the season's rituals. The point Libby was making and I am reiterating to you, is why do you rail against ritual but yet still partake of it in and around the Christmas season?

Am I to assume that you do not judge those who partake in rituals as long as it's those rituals that you yourself partake in?

I won't ask you anymore to answer the question here, as your double standard speaks for itself; however, I will ask you to heavily ponder on your own inconsistency.

:doh:

As I previously posted:

C'mon libby (and now Radiant1) - I didn't say that at all! I said I celebrate The Lord's Birthday 7 days a week - that includes the traditional 25th of Dec. in which season there are cards sent to friends and family, gifts for my son and wife and it helps bring Christ into as much focus for the family as any other day. Likewise, the "traditional" Easter is celebrated with family and again it helps bring Christ's Atonement and Resurrection into focus - but why celebrate that only one day out of the year! One of the other points I was making is that it all boils down to commercialism in the guise of "religious" holy days - which Christ and the Apostles were against.

I have already stated that I do not judge anyone for celebrating these days if it helps bring Christ into focus. However, the fact that I also acknowledge the "accepted celebration days" and partake of them has no bearing on the fact that I have pointed out that these days are NOT the true days of "Christ's Birth" and even of "Christ's Resurrection". That's the point I am making and if you now realize and acknowledge that as Truth as well are you going to stop celebrating them?

Remembering the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ are all important reminders that our Saviour came into this world to bring Salvation to mankind, but, again, when December 25th comes around, you now know that this was not the true birth date of Christ - so why claim that it is?

Sorry, SM, this doesn't cut it. As R1 said, it's because of your heavy handed proselytizing that you have backed yourself into this self-righteous corner.
Personally, I have no doubt that you love Christ, but you completely lack charity in that you always assume the worst out of anything that doesn't conform to your interpretation of truth.
December 25th (or the time in and around) is pagan in origin. December 25 is a man made ritual, which is absolutely contrary to your faith. So, the question is, are you going to now give up participating in the pagan holiday? Perhaps you can just set another date in the year so that God will know it comes from your heart instead of coming from the dictates of some institution.

I'm fairly certain that the majority of Christians are mindful of our salvation every day. You're not special in that regard.

You may protest that it is not your birthday, but you also already admitted that you do partake in the season's rituals. The point Libby was making and I am reiterating to you, is why do you rail against ritual but yet still partake of it in and around the Christmas season?

Am I to assume that you do not judge those who partake in rituals as long as it's those rituals that you yourself partake in?

I won't ask you anymore to answer the question here, as your double standard speaks for itself; however, I will ask you to heavily ponder on your own inconsistency.

:doh: again!

I merely pointed out that December 25th is NOT really the actual Birthday of Jesus and that it is really the date of a pagan holiday. That is True! Then I get chastised because I admit to partaking of the seasom with friends and family albeit I do mention the specifics to other Christians. So Yes, I am a hypocrite for going along with it like all other hypocrites do when they knowingly realize that December 25th is a pagan holiday and not Christ's date of birth.

Because we know the Truth - we are all hypocrites together and as I have admitted here before, I am a wretched sinner saved by the Grace of God. If it makes you feel better to know: I am a hypocrite for sending out Christmas cards and wishing people "Merry Christmas!" during the Holiday Season. I am a hypocrite for purchasing gifts for my wife and son. I am a hypocrite for accepting gifts given to me by loved ones when it's not my birthday. I am a hypocrite!

Now that I have cleared that up - where do you stand?

Sorry, SM, this doesn't cut it. As R1 said, it's because of your heavy handed proselytizing that you have backed yourself into this self-righteous corner.
Personally, I have no doubt that you love Christ, but you completely lack charity in that you always assume the worst out of anything that doesn't conform to your interpretation of truth.
December 25th (or the time in and around) is pagan in origin. December 25 is a man made ritual, which is absolutely contrary to your faith. So, the question is, are you going to now give up participating in the pagan holiday? Perhaps you can just set another date in the year so that God will know it comes from your heart instead of coming from the dictates of some institution.

same response as given to Radiant1

:doh: again

I merely pointed out that December 25th is NOT really the actual Birthday of Jesus and that it is really the date of a pagan holiday. That is True! Then I get chastised because I admit to partaking of the seasom with friends and family albeit I do mention the specifics to other Christians. So Yes, I am a hypocrite for going along with it like all other hypocrites do when they knowingly realize that December 25th is a pagan holiday and not Christ's date of birth.

Because we know the Truth - we are all hypocrites together and as I have admitted here before, I am a wretched sinner saved by the Grace of God. If it makes you feel better to know: I am a hypocrite for sending out Christmas cards and wishing people "Merry Christmas!" during the Holiday Season. I am a hypocrite for purchasing gifts for my wife and son. I am a hypocrite for accepting gifts given to me by loved ones when it's not my birthday. I am a hypocrite!

Now that I have cleared that up - where do you stand?

same response as given to Radiant1

:doh: again

I merely pointed out that December 25th is NOT really the actual Birthday of Jesus and that it is really the date of a pagan holiday. That is True! Then I get chastised because I admit to partaking of the seasom with friends and family albeit I do mention the specifics to other Christians. So Yes, I am a hypocrite for going along with it like all other hypocrites do when they knowingly realize that December 25th is a pagan holiday and not Christ's date of birth.

Because we know the Truth - we are all hypocrites together and as I have admitted here before, I am a wretched sinner saved by the Grace of God. If it makes you feel better to know: I am a hypocrite for sending out Christmas cards and wishing people "Merry Christmas!" during the Holiday Season. I am a hypocrite for purchasing gifts for my wife and son. I am a hypocrite for accepting gifts given to me by loved ones when it's not my birthday. I am a hypocrite!

Now that I have cleared that up - where do you stand?


Do you then also admit that you are wrong to chastise Catholics for celebrating feast that they believe are worth celebrating: the Lord's Supper, the Annunciation, the Ascension, etc, or do you say it is a man-made ritual with no value in one's walk with Christ?

We are not "all hypocrites together". Only those who believe it is wrong, yet do it anyway are hypocrites.

We are not "all hypocrites together". Only those who believe it is wrong, yet do it anyway are hypocrites.

So, is December 25th Really Jesus' Birth date?

Do you then also admit that you are wrong to chastise Catholics for celebrating feast that they believe are worth celebrating: the Lord's Supper, the Annunciation, the Ascension, etc, or do you say it is a man-made ritual with no value in one's walk with Christ?

The Annunciation, Birth, Ministry, Lord's Supper, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and expectation of the Second Advent of Jesus should always be in remembrance of all who place faith in the Lordship of Jesus in their lives. This is not an RCC exclusive faith.

However: Believing that the bread literally turns into the "flesh of Jesus" and believing that the wine literally turns into the "Blood of Christ" are man-made rituals, wrong doctrine, major error in belief, and have no scriptural basis to say that this is what happens.

Likewise: The teaching that the RCC is the exclusive "Church" whereby Salvation is found and that the papacy is the "exclusive" spokesman for God upon this earth is also a major doctrinal error taught by man and is a misinterpretation of the New Testament teachings regarding the Great Commission.

The Annunciation, Birth, Ministry, Lord's Supper, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and expectation of the Second Advent of Jesus should always be in remembrance of all who place faith in the Lordship of Jesus in their lives. This is not an RCC exclusive faith.

However: Believing that the bread literally turns into the "flesh of Jesus" and believing that the wine literally turns into the "Blood of Christ" are man-made rituals, wrong doctrine, major error in belief, and have no scriptural basis to say that this is what happens.

Likewise: The teaching that the RCC is the exclusive "Church" whereby Salvation is found and that the papacy is the "exclusive" spokesman for God upon this earth is also a major doctrinal error taught by man and is a misinterpretation of the New Testament teachings regarding the Great Commission.

You're changing the subject.

You're a pretty bright guy, SM. Surely you understand the difference between us. I do not believe Dec. 25th is Jesus' actual birthday, but neither do I believe that God condemns "man-made rituals" if they serve the purpose of bringing us closer to Christ, and demonstrating His Lordship in our lives to all of the world.
You, OTOH, roundly criticize man made rituals, period, every time we've chatted on these forums.
You categorically chastise anyone who participates in them and doing "works" or whatever you call it.
You've been caught with you pants down. (so to speak)

You're changing the subject.

Actually, the subject has changed several times over the postings in this thread. It all began when I commented on the man-made tradition of elevating of people to the status of "sainthood" of which was the original subject in this thread.

You're a pretty bright guy, SM. Surely you understand the difference between us. I do not believe Dec. 25th is Jesus' actual birthday, but neither do I believe that God condemns "man-made rituals" if they serve the purpose of bringing us closer to Christ, and demonstrating His Lordship in our lives to all of the world.
You, OTOH, roundly criticize man made rituals, period, every time we've chatted on these forums.
You categorically chastise anyone who participates in them and doing "works" or whatever you call it.
You've been caught with you pants down. (so to speak)

LOL - if anyone has been caught with their pants down, it is the false teachings that are exposed (so to speak) by what the Holy Bible states in regard to traditions of man - which Christ and the Apostles spoke against. The fact that my posts bring these out to light infuriates those who are in denial of the Truth and not courageous enough to admit that they are being taught something that is totally wrong. I have already admitted that I am a hypocrite and a wretched sinner saved by the Grace of God and not by any good works I could ever do. I didn't earn my Salvation; it is the Gift of God through faith and knowing without a doubt that the New Testament Jesus is truly the Divine Son of The Living God whom I have accepted as my personal Lord and Saviour.

There is nothing that can be done in a spiritual half-way house to try to make amends before being allowed entry into heaven. When a person dies, they either die as a saved soul or lost soul by the decision they made in the here and now of this lifetime. So, since we're on the topinc of erroneous teachings - purgatory is a false and misleading concept that is taught by man - NOT by The Word of God.

Actually, the subject has changed several times over the postings in this thread. It all began when I commented on the man-made tradition of elevating of people to the status of "sainthood" of which was the original subject in this thread.



LOL - if anyone has been caught with their pants down, it is the false teachings that are exposed (so to speak) by what the Holy Bible states in regard to traditions of man - which Christ and the Apostles spoke against. The fact that my posts bring these out to light infuriates those who are in denial of the Truth and not courageous enough to admit that they are being taught something that is totally wrong. I have already admitted that I am a hypocrite and a wretched sinner saved by the Grace of God and not by any good works I could ever do. I didn't earn my Salvation; it is the Gift of God through faith and knowing without a doubt that the New Testament Jesus is truly the Divine Son of The Living God whom I have accepted as my personal Lord and Saviour.

There is nothing that can be done in a spiritual half-way house to try to make amends before being allowed entry into heaven. When a person dies, they either die as a saved soul or lost soul by the decision they made in the here and now of this lifetime. So, since we're on the topinc of erroneous teachings - purgatory is a false and misleading concept that is taught by man - NOT by The Word of God.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. Do you refuse to change? Does your burning love for Jesus and your desire to please him override your earthly attachments to the Christmas holiday?
Your interpretation of the Bible, personally inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells you that you should not be celebrating a man-made tradition. Will you say, "NO" to God?

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites.

If you recall I have already admitted a few times that I am one too!

Do you refuse to change?

I have changed in my understanding that December 25th is NOT the exact Birth Date of Christ so I know that the wrong date is being attributed with the blessing of the churches.

Does your burning love for Jesus and your desire to please him override your earthly attachments to the Christmas holiday?
Your interpretation of the Bible, personally inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells you that you should not be celebrating a man-made tradition. Will you say, "NO" to God?

Hmmm... Since when is the Birth of Christ a "man made tradition" ???
Celebrating it on the wrong day and a pagan day is. That's all what I have said from the start. I concede that partaking of the Christmas Season at a time when most of the world stops to remember the Birth of Christ is better than not acknowledging His Birth at all -since no one can pin-point an exact date of His actual Birth. That's what admittedly makes me a hypocrite - because I celebrate Christ's Birthday when most everyone else does (although it's the Wrong Date!)

And libby - I still love you as a friend. :love:

Hmmm... Since when is the Birth of Christ a "man made tradition" ???
Celebrating it on the wrong day and a pagan day is. That's all what I have said from the start. I concede that partaking of the Christmas Season at a time when most of the world stops to remember the Birth of Christ is better than not acknowledging His Birth at all -since no one can pin-point an exact date of His actual Birth. That's what admittedly makes me a hypocrite - because I celebrate Christ's Birthday when most everyone else does (although it's the Wrong Date!)

Is it? According to the website you posted, since scripture did not tell us the exact date Jesus was born then God did not really want us to know; therefore, we can conclude that He did not want us to acknowledge it at all. So, when you celebrate the birth of Christ (no matter what date it may be) and give/receive gifts on that day as well (which you already admitted to doing), then you really are following the dictates of a man-made tradition of a church and it's subsequent pagan traditions. :ahem:

Please forgive me, but I'm highly amused by the irony. :lol:

Might I suggest that you either stop celebrating Christmas all together or give up your affront to ritual and man-made traditions of a church? I mean, you do find yourself being a hypocrite and in a precarious situation because of it. :coffee:

If you recall I have already admitted a few times that I am one too!



I have changed in my understanding that December 25th is NOT the exact Birth Date of Christ so I know that the wrong date is being attributed with the blessing of the churches.



Hmmm... Since when is the Birth of Christ a "man made tradition" ???
Celebrating it on the wrong day and a pagan day is. That's all what I have said from the start. I concede that partaking of the Christmas Season at a time when most of the world stops to remember the Birth of Christ is better than not acknowledging His Birth at all -since no one can pin-point an exact date of His actual Birth. That's what admittedly makes me a hypocrite - because I celebrate Christ's Birthday when most everyone else does (although it's the Wrong Date!)

And libby - I still love you as a friend. :love:

Okay, SM, I'll remember this and use it against you next time you jump all over man-made traditions on this forum.
"Do as I say, not as I do" seem to fit this situation rather nicely.

Is it? According to the website you posted, since scripture did not tell us the exact date Jesus was born then God did not really want us to know; therefore, we can conclude that He did not want us to acknowledge it at all. So, when you celebrate the birth of Christ (no matter what date it may be) and give/receive gifts on that day as well (which you already admitted to doing), then you really are following the dictates of a man-made tradition of a church and it's subsequent pagan traditions. :ahem:

Please forgive me, but I'm highly amused by the irony. :lol:

Might I suggest that you either stop celebrating Christmas all together or give up your affront to ritual and man-made traditions of a church? I mean, you do find yourself being a hypocrite and in a precarious situation because of it. :coffee:

OK - And now that you know the Truth - will you do the same?

Okay, SM, I'll remember this and use it against you next time you jump all over man-made traditions on this forum.
"Do as I say, not as I do" seem to fit this situation rather nicely.

OK libby. Use it against me all you wish - if it makes you feel better.

Remember, just because I first pointed out that we are all celebrating Christmas on the wrong date and on a pagan holiday you have become so obsessively upset enough at me that you have gone off topic from the original discussion and wish to pin me into stopping the observance with friends and family while you, now knowing the Truth, would not do the same.

Another point: I never stated for anyone to quit celebrating the Remembrance of Christ's Birth, nor would I expect them to; I just stated a TRUTH about the observance.

If you really wish to carry on with this, I'd suggest let's start another thread where we can discuss Christmas and all the other man-made traditions that the "church" has interjected into its teachings.

BTW: I still love you as a friend. :love:

OK - And now that you know the Truth - will you do the same?

You didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know, and I won't stop celebrating because I don't take issue with any of it.

You didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know, and I won't stop celebrating because I don't take issue with any of it.

:yeahthat:

You didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know, and I won't stop celebrating because I don't take issue with any of it.

Hmmm... What you are saying then is that since you don't take issue with any of it, then it's OK to believe and tell others that December 25th is Christ's Birthday (When it's NOT) and it's OK to believe and tell others that the Three Wise Men visited the Christ-Child at the manger (When they Didn't) and on Easter it's going to be OK to believe and tell others that Christ was crucified on a Friday (When it was a Wednesday). Who taught those things to you?

BTW: Yes, I have admitted many times already that my participation in observing December 25th as Christ's "Birthday" has been hypocritical but I have actually now come to grips with the fact that all this time I have blindly gone along with the half-truths that "the world" has accepted and that millions have conformed to. However, the Bible tells us to not be conformed to this world and, therefore, the idea of celebrating Christ's Birthday on a pagan holiday has been confirmed through these discussions that this is what I really should not be doing. It has bothered me in my spirit for awhile and perhaps that is the reason that this thread has come to this point. Believe it or not, I wish to thank you and libby for pinning me to make a decision - which I have as of this day. I am happy that this coming December 25th, I will take a totally different approach with friends and family and not partake of the pagan celebration as before nor claim that it is really Christ's Birthday. Though this will be a sensitive situation in some cases, I know God will give the Wisdom to share Truth.

If you and libby have a moment, please read the information on the following link. This is what helped me in my decision:

Should Christians Celebrate Christmas? (http://www.sovereigngrace.net/should.htm)

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

Hmmm... What you are saying then is that since you don't take issue with any of it, then it's OK to believe and tell others that December 25th is Christ's Birthday (When it's NOT) and it's OK to believe and tell others that the Three Wise Men visited the Christ-Child at the manger (When they Didn't) and on Easter it's going to be OK to believe and tell others that Christ was crucified on a Friday (When it was a Wednesday). Who taught those things to you?

BTW: Yes, I have admitted many times already that my participation in observing December 25th as Christ's "Birthday" has been hypocritical but I have actually now come to grips with the fact that all this time I have blindly gone along with the half-truths that "the world" has accepted and that millions have conformed to. However, the Bible tells us to not be conformed to this world and, therefore, the idea of celebrating Christ's Birthday on a pagan holiday has been confirmed through these discussions that this is what I really should not be doing. It has bothered me in my spirit for awhile and perhaps that is the reason that this thread has come to this point. Believe it or not, I wish to thank you and libby for pinning me to make a decision - which I have as of this day. I am happy that this coming December 25th, I will take a totally different approach with friends and family and not partake of the pagan celebration as before nor claim that it is really Christ's Birthday. Though this will be a sensitive situation in some cases, I know God will give the Wisdom to share Truth.

If you and libby have a moment, please read the information on the following link. This is what helped me in my decision:

Should Christians Celebrate Christmas? (http://www.sovereigngrace.net/should.htm)

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

Speaking for myself, I don't think or teach that Christmas is Christ's birthday. It is only the day we celebrate the birth of Christ. Two different animals.
Seeing that in the USA in 2009 we use the Gregorian calender (Pope Gregory, now whatcha gonna do! :cds:), which no one expects would necessarily match up with the Jewish calender of the first century, we just go about doing our best to bring glory to Christ with the information we do have.
I hope you don't need to take a "totally different approach" this year. Jesus made us sensual beings, with sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell, etc. These senses of ours bring us warm and loving memories of the Nativity and Birth of Our Lord, which I am certain you celebrate with all due reverence.
If you change anything, change the way you approach the rest of us for doing the same thing on other holy days of the year, that you do on Christmas and Easter.

and on Easter it's going to be OK to believe and tell others that Christ was crucified on a Friday (When it was a Wednesday).
Silly Rabbit, Easter is about the bunny. ~MissKitty 1:87



And I feel sorry for your kid. :ohwell:

JDoes your burning love for Jesus and your desire to please him override your earthly attachments to the Christmas holiday?

:getdown:

DcJac6OykfM

:getdown:

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I don't know anything about sainthood but this chic should be nominated for an Emmy or something. Rz15blmK4V8

...If you change anything, change the way you approach the rest of us for doing the same thing on other holy days of the year, that you do on Christmas and Easter.

libby, I hope that in all of our many discussions I have never belittled you in any way nor made an offensive or personal derogatory comment toward you or anyone else. If I have, I am sorry and ask that you and others forgive any insensitive approach on my part.

However, please realize that when I bring up theological discussion points that we disagree on it is not to cause offense but to bring about a comparative view whereby doctrinal teachings need to be examined. It is only natural to feel offended when someone challenges what you have been taught and believe to be true. This also happens when discussing my faith in Christ with others who believe in Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orthodox Judaism, etc. - they get offended, yet There Is Only One Truth.

As mentioned, I have been a hypocrite for allowing myself to have conformed to those half-truths and that is why the progression of my walk with Christ is to make changes that conform not to the world but to His Truth and to His Guidance.

And libby - I will always love you as a friend.

Hmmm... What you are saying then is that since you don't take issue with any of it, then it's OK to believe and tell others that December 25th is Christ's Birthday (When it's NOT)

No. The Catholic Church doesn't call Christmas Jesus' birthday but rather the celebration of Christ's coming into the world.

and it's OK to believe and tell others that the Three Wise Men visited the Christ-Child at the manger (When they Didn't)

No. The Catholic Church does not celebrate this at Christmas, but at another time; it's called the Feast of the Epiphany.

and on Easter it's going to be OK to believe and tell others that Christ was crucified on a Friday (When it was a Wednesday).

Yes, because Jesus was crucified on a Friday. I'll keep this simple -- Jewish days start at sundown. Scripture says Christ rose on the 3rd day, not exactly at or after 72 hours.

Starman, I used to partake in apologetics on IRC Efnet for well over a decade, and I've been over this debate with others countless times. I've weighed the evidence both for and against, and poured over the scripture verses. Truly, you're not going to tell me something I haven't already heard nor are you going to convince me otherwise at this point. I don't mean to be offensive when I say this, but the biblical exegesis for Jesus' death on Wednesday is well...just silly. In fact, I hesitate to even call it exegesis, as it flies in the face of scripture itself.

Who taught those things to you?

That would depend on which of the above we are speaking about.

Now, with having said that, I truly hope you do not give up the special time of celebrating the coming of Christ into the world this Christmas season. I would prefer you give up your affront to ritual. If you are a man who is truly guided by the Holy Spirit you would not be so confused, and yes, you are a man who is confused. The confusion that you find yourself only shows me and others the necessity of having an authority to guide us. Jesus left us with that authority.

Matthew 16:18,19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How very interesting. She is my namesake. St. Theresa of the Roses.

libby, I hope that in all of our many discussions I have never belittled you in any way nor made an offensive or personal derogatory comment toward you or anyone else. If I have, I am sorry and ask that you and others forgive any insensitive approach on my part.

However, please realize that when I bring up theological discussion points that we disagree on it is not to cause offense but to bring about a comparative view whereby doctrinal teachings need to be examined. It is only natural to feel offended when someone challenges what you have been taught and believe to be true. This also happens when discussing my faith in Christ with others who believe in Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orthodox Judaism, etc. - they get offended, yet There Is Only One Truth.

As mentioned, I have been a hypocrite for allowing myself to have conformed to those half-truths and that is why the progression of my walk with Christ is to make changes that conform not to the world but to His Truth and to His Guidance.

And libby - I will always love you as a friend.

The only offense I have taken (not in this thread) is when you and/or IT suggest that my "man-made traditions" directly contradict Christ's teachings and therefore my Jesus is "another Jesus", who by definition would be a false god. I actually think you are a great Christian with a few little theological problems, primarily stemming from consistency. These forum examinations of our faiths can be very fruitful for both of us, and I expect that everyone finds a question or two they cannot answer, which does not make the whole of Christianity wrong.
Please do not stop celebrating the holiday, we need lovers of Christ to bring His Holy Name back into Christmas. Perhaps the church chose the darkest time of the year to emphasize that Jesus Christ is the light of the world; and doesn't Christmas, for all of us, brighten up that oh-so-dark time of year??

Matthew 16:18,19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Therein is the source of who is really confused here Radiant1. If you really studied "apologetics" you would plainly see that Matthew 16:18-19, never proclaimed a title of "pope" to be bestowed upon Peter as head of the church and to the exclusion to the ministry of all the other Apostles.

Jesus also did not give exclusive authority for the establishment of a "Holy See" that can claim it is the one and only sanctioned authority ordained by God which can grant forgiveness of sins and salvation to its members.

There are many other teachings that the Vatican has added to the confusion when it replaced former pagan deities of Rome with new patron saints so as to make the transition from paganism to "Catholicism" much easier and acceptable by pagan worshippers.

Confused? The RCC is no different than Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, in its claim that the "church" speaks for God and is the only one to belong to. God's True Church is not made with hands and not headed up by any organized religion. God's True Church encompasses the Spiritual Body of Believers who have placed faith in the Lordship of the New Testament Jesus, and not "another Jesus" that has been conjured through half-truths and believed upon by the assorted denominations who preach another Jesus. The Jesus of the Holy Bible calls upon people to be born again and Salvation through Faith in Christ is in the here and now. There is no spiritual half-way house known as "purgatory." That would make you a half-saved person who must complete the purification process (after you are dead) before being allowed into heaven as taught by RCC doctrine. That is not what the New Testament Jesus ever claimed - yet you accept it as truth because that's what papal decree has taught.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(2 Corinthians 11:4)

Therein is the source of who is really confused here Radiant1. If you really studied "apologetics" you would plainly see that Matthew 16:18-19, never proclaimed a title of "pope" to be bestowed upon Peter as head of the church and to the exclusion to the ministry of all the other Apostles.

Jesus also did not give exclusive authority for the establishment of a "Holy See" that can claim it is the one and only sanctioned authority ordained by God which can grant forgiveness of sins and salvation to its members.

There are many other teachings that the Vatican has added to the confusion when it replaced former pagan deities of Rome with new patron saints so as to make the transition from paganism to "Catholicism" much easier and acceptable by pagan worshippers.

Confused? The RCC is no different than Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, in its claim that the "church" speaks for God and is the only one to belong to. God's True Church is not made with hands and not headed up by any organized religion. God's True Church encompasses the Spiritual Body of Believers who have placed faith in the Lordship of the New Testament Jesus, and not "another Jesus" that has been conjured through half-truths and believed upon by the assorted denominations who preach another Jesus. The Jesus of the Holy Bible calls upon people to be born again and Salvation through Faith in Christ is in the here and now. There is no spiritual half-way house known as "purgatory." That would make you a half-saved person who must complete the purification process (after you are dead) before being allowed into heaven as taught by RCC doctrine. That is not what the New Testament Jesus ever claimed - yet you accept it as truth because that's what papal decree has taught.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(2 Corinthians 11:4)

Every single thing you mentioned has Scripture to back it up. Perhaps it is not your personal interpretation of Scripture, but Scripture nonetheless.
The Jesus you claim requires nothing of us, well isn't that just the easy way out. Of course you want to believe it, it doesn't demand anything. Throughout the OT God demanded that His people know, love and serve Him. He showed them His power over and over, yet they still failed. So (in short) He became man to show us how to live, and established the means of His Grace to help us through.
In Jeremiah 23 1-6 we see that the Lord does condemn the "shepherds" who have driven people away from Him, have not cared for His people. God does not, however, prophesy that He will abolish the stewardship. In fact what He says is, "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock from all the lands..." and "I will appoint shepherds for them who will shepherd them so that they need no longer fear and tremble..."
In the Gospel of Luke, Chap 20, the parable of the tenant farmers, you know the story, in vs. 16 Jesus tells us that "He will come and put those tenant farmers to death and turn over the vineyard to others"
Nothing indicates that the structure of authority established by God in the OT will be done away with. As a matter of fact, we see God foretelling of the errors of the Pharisees, but quite interestingly, in Matthew 23, while Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees He says not only, " "do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example", but also in vs. 23 we see "you pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. These things you should have done, without neglecting the others"
Jesus says to Peter three times in succession "feed my sheep". Who feeds sheep but a shepherd? Peter is also given the keys to Heaven in Matthew 16:18, which we also see in Isaiah. Jesus breathed on them! The breath of God gives life in Genesis, life which, by His Grace, continues on. When Jesus breathes on the Apostles that life giving breath continues to the successors of the Apostles.