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Typically I stay detached from most of the religious discussions because it is one thing I believe that should be private and left to the individual to decide for themselves. Yeah, I know, why am talking about it then? Besides it being a characteristic of my opinionated self I find for unknown reasons that something has crept into my head and is driving me to voice my opinion on the matter. It could be the continued damnation of gays or that absurd ruling by the judge that barred a child’s parents from practicing Wicca or maybe I am being influenced by a power greater than myself to sound off on the matter. Who knows what caused it, all I know is that it is an abnormally strong source of motivation.

Just to make sure I am clear, as I suspect that I might offend a few of you, I’m not writing this to pick on, denigrate, to make light of what it is they believe or to tell anyone that they are right or wrong. You are free to believe anything you want on the matter. This is just how I feel and a small synopsis of what I believe.

To kick this off I will say that my own beliefs are such that I am probably not viewed as a Christian by those that find the need to classify others even though I try to live and believe in principals that are certainly Christian (not to mention that I consider myself Christian). It matters not to me if I am called a pagan or non-believer by many of you because I find myself in great company amongst other believing people of the world. I just don’t see it exactly the same as what some consider the “Christian way” and just because some don’t believe what I do doesn’t mean that they won’t get into Heaven.

I think the essence of being acceptable to Heaven is not in how or what you are taught but in how you live and act. My observation during my life has shown me that many Christians are most definitely not Christian by their actions. They don’t practice what the have been taught, use only fragments of the teachings to support their view while ignoring parts of religious laws that don’t quite fit their needs, and most specifically that they have no qualm about damning others that don’t think of like mind. To me this is all anti-Christian behavior from what I absorbed when it was taught to me and what I believe as my knowledge grows.

Rereading the books of Luke and Matthew (specifically Luke 6 and Matthew 5) you come across the “Golden Rule” and the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. These are profound in my mind in stipulating that it is what one does that determines his acceptance into Heaven and not merely what one claims to believe. It is my belief that if you live your life as a good person you will be accepted into Heaven based on that and that alone. That it is up to God to determine who enters and we mere mortals in no way can know what decision is held for any of us. If you think I am wrong fine, I have no problem with that and will think no less of you. If you think I will be damned for my beliefs all I can say is only time will tell and if I do end up in Heaven (as I think I will) I hope it will be an inclusive Heaven where God loves all his creations and not simply those that are of one mind that seem to think Heaven is exclusive.

Now shifting gears I want to jump to the Wicca discussions found on the site (as well as elsewhere) and speak to those comments that cry out that “America was founded for religious freedom”. If that is what you really believe, then fine. But I will ask you if you have you ever read the following phrase. When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. I suspect that many of you might recognize it and as such I ask if you care to speak more as to why the United States was founded? If you do then we can continue with the remainder of the above text and address our Declaration of Independence at length. It does a superb job of explaining why it is we chose to be free from Great Britain and their king.

The Wicca, as I understand them, are simply worshippers of nature and there are court decisions that give them status as a religion. And along with this religion you will find that there are many people that worship a God, the son of God, many Gods, there are some that worship nothing at all, then there are those that fall anywhere along the expanse of these differences, and I am sure that there are some that have beliefs consisting of combinations of these ideologies. The point is that we all aren’t the same and none of us can say our way is the only way or if any one way is right or wrong. It’s up to us as free-thinking individuals to decide that and we not only deserve but demand the freedom to do so.

I guess all that I am really saying is that because some are intolerant of differences in religions, lifestyles or beliefs that they consider counter to what they hold as the truth does not make their beliefs the truth. Our nation does give us the freedom to choose what we believe as to religious matters and as such feel free to believe what you want. In the end we each will face our judgment day in our own time and way. I suspect that we will be held to answer for what we have done, how we have lived and not on what we believe is the righteous path into God’s Kingdom.

Amen

Well said. :yay:

Great column, Ken. I agree with almost all of what you said. I'm glad to read that someone besides myself believes that religious faith is a very personal thing.

Only one caveat--I don't believe the Declaration's references to Nature's God and the Creator should be interpreted to mean that America should be a "Christian nation." Nor should those references require preferential treatment for Christianity from the federal government or any state or local government.

Allll...how kyooot! Ken's okay, we're okay :huggy:

:rolleyes:

Personally I'm sick of all these weird made up religions and I refuse to give them credence. A true religion has a scripture and a divine figurehead. Wicca has neither and therefore isn't a religion - it's merely a club of hippie tree huggers.

Granted, they're not hurting anyone so who cares, but just because some court decided that they are a religion doesn't make them one. Some court also decided that partial birth abortion wasn't murder. Some judge derided a 12 year old girl because she was raped by an online predator - remember? "It takes two to tango"? I don't look to the judicial system to tell me what's right and what's wrong because most of the judges in this country have their head up their ass.

That said, mere mortals do not get to decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't and anyone who tells you different is an idiot. And all these folks running around pretending they have the Golden List in their hand are full of crap. The Bible is pretty clear about those who try to play God and what will happen to them in the end.

By Biblical standards, King David should have burned in hell for his sins, but he didn't - he was chosen by God to lead. So at the end of the day, you just never know who's getting in the pearly gates and who's going to roast, and it's fruitless to try and guess.

So you're only part right - people should mind their business and quit slapping God in the face and trying to do His job. But made up crap is NOT religion.

Only one caveat--I don't believe the Declaration's references to Nature's God and the Creator should be interpreted to mean that America should be a "Christian nation." Nor should those references require preferential treatment for Christianity from the federal government or any state or local government.

I'd like to add something to this. Not all the founding fathers were Christians. Many like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were Deists. Would they have wanted the U.S. to have "religious freedom" just for Christians?

Personally I'm sick of all these weird made up religions and I refuse to give them credence. A true religion has a scripture and a divine figurehead. Wicca has neither and therefore isn't a religion - it's merely a club of hippie tree huggers.
I'm sure that the jews thought the same thing about Christians in the first century AD also. Only time will tell. :lol:

Personally I'm sick of all these weird made up religions and I refuse to give them credence. A true religion has a scripture and a divine figurehead. Wicca has neither and therefore isn't a religion - it's merely a club of hippie tree huggers.
:lol:

To be fair, I could make up a religion that would meet your criteria. I could spend a weekend writing a rambling 250,000-word holy book and install myself as the divine figurehead. That's what L. Ron Hubbard did.

Allll...how kyooot! Ken's okay, we're okay :huggy:

:rolleyes:

That said, mere mortals do not get to decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't and anyone who tells you different is an idiot.
That's a better word than arrogant.

Only one caveat--I don't believe the Declaration's references to Nature's God and the Creator should be interpreted to mean that America should be a "Christian nation." Nor should those references require preferential treatment for Christianity from the federal government or any state or local government.
Tonio, I wasn't saying that we were founded as a Christian Nation, but that if one actually read the Declaration they would see why it is we came to be and it wasn't simply for religious freedom.

Every religion has been invented by man. I feel either as a means to explain the unexplainable, out of fear of the unknown or as a means of controlling the masses.
Paganism was around before Christianity and is based on the circle of life. I like to take parts of religions and put them together to form my own opinions and ideas. That's my freedom of religion..:lol:

Personally I'm sick of all these weird made up religions and I refuse to give them credence. A true religion has a scripture and a divine figurehead. Wicca has neither and therefore isn't a religion - it's merely a club of hippie tree huggers.
So even though the pagan way was around in the pre-christian era (and some claim since the beginning of mankind) you only give credence to those that came after it and only then if they have a figurehead and scripture. To me what you discribe as a "true religion" is more like a club. Wicca/pagans had to be attuned to the earth and nature for survival and as civilizations grew they sensed a Divine Power that they tried to understand. How does that make them more right or wrong then any other religion?

In the end, no matter what, you are whom you’ll always sleep with.

In the end, no matter what, you are whom you’ll always sleep with.

Or the one I see in the mirror every day.

Tonio, I wasn't saying that we were founded as a Christian Nation, but that if one actually read the Declaration they would see why it is we came to be and it wasn't simply for religious freedom.
Thanks. It sounded like you were saying that religious freedom played no role at all. I agree that religious freedom was one of many reasons why America came to be.

So even though the pagan way was around in the pre-christian era "Flat earth" predates Columbus - just because it was an early belief doesn't make it right.

Wicca/pagans had to be attuned to the earth and nature for survival and as civilizations grew they sensed a Divine Power that they tried to understand. They didn't "sense" a divine power - they used these "gods" as an easy answer for happenings in their small, unsophisticated lives. "What is that big ball of fire in the sky?" "Must be a god because it gets angry with us and makes our skin red when we're outside too long."

Every religion has been invented by man. I feel either as a means to explain the unexplainable, out of fear of the unknown or as a means of controlling the masses. EXACTLY. But just because someone makes up some belief or dredges up some old belief doesn't make it a legitimate religion. Otherwise I want the banks to close for Petezaa. :lol:

"Flat earth" predates Columbus - just because it was an early belief doesn't make it right.
The spherical concept of the earth came about sometime during the first century - ever hear of Pliny the Elder? Learned people of Europe had bought into it around the 1100s. If I am not mistaken it was Christian leaders that wanted to hold onto the flat world concept.
EXACTLY. But just because someone makes up some belief or dredges up some old belief doesn't make it a legitimate religion. Otherwise I want the banks to close for Petezaa. :lol:
How many religious holidays (other then mainstream Judeo-Christian) do we currently celebrate or close activities for?

Maybe someone should concentrate on spelling and grammar. :biggrin:

Otherwise I want the banks to close for Petezaa. :lol:
Working on it :yay:

How many religious holidays (other then mainstream Judeo-Christian) do we currently celebrate or close activities for?Far too many. That's why I get annoyed with made up religions.

Far too many. That's why I get annoyed with made up religions.


Why do you think people make them up?

How many religious holidays (other then mainstream Judeo-Christian) do we currently celebrate or close activities for?
When the government closes offices on a religious holiday, it's a matter of administrative convenience, and that's the way it should be. New York City schools close on Jewish holidays as well as on Christian holidays. Saves money and time by not holding classes for just a few students. The schools probably wouldn't do that for the Wiccan holidays unless the system had a large number of students from Wicca families.

Why do you think people make them up?Mostly, for the same reasons all religions get "made up". Almost all the major religions are connected to some revelation or unique, divine experience by one or several religious founders. A miracle, a resurrection, a moment of enlightenment, an inspiration from an angel or divine being. A great prophet who spoke to God and came down from Mt Horeb with God-inscribed tablets. An angel directs an illiterate man to 'read'. A spoiled prince makes some observations that convince him to take a personal journey for enlightenment.

The major world religions are tied to significant *events*. Other religions are tied to culture and tradition as their source.

It's why I have a hard time recognizing religions that do seem to be contrived without a connection to events or culture.

Why people "make up" religion AFTER such events or traditions is pretty easy - they *believe* them. If someone claims to be God, performs miracles and then comes back from the dead - and it's believable - I find that compelling. If another performs perfunctory rituals and prays to something that never shows any sign of results, I do not find it compelling. I respect their choice, but I'm not interested.

Mostly, for the same reasons all religions get "made up". Almost all the major religions are connected to some revelation or unique, divine experience by one or several religious founders. A miracle, a resurrection, a moment of enlightenment, an inspiration from an angel or divine being. A great prophet who spoke to God and came down from Mt Horeb with God-inscribed tablets. An angel directs an illiterate man to 'read'. A spoiled prince makes some observations that convince him to take a personal journey for enlightenment.

The major world religions are tied to significant *events*. Other religions are tied to culture and tradition as their source.

It's why I have a hard time recognizing religions that do seem to be contrived without a connection to events or culture.

Why people "make up" religion AFTER such events or traditions is pretty easy - they *believe* them. If someone claims to be God, performs miracles and then comes back from the dead - and it's believable - I find that compelling. If another performs perfunctory rituals and prays to something that never shows any sign of results, I do not find it compelling. I respect their choice, but I'm not interested.

I was making a joke, honey. Create a religion and declare it a holiday so you get the day off. Get it?

Far too many. That's why I get annoyed with made up religions.


which ones specifically? I personally can not think of any non-judeo christian holidays for whicht the government or schools close. (other than national holidays such as memorial day, labor day, etc. which are not associated with any religion "made up" or otherwise.)

When the government closes offices on a religious holiday, it's a matter of administrative convenience, and that's the way it should be. New York City schools close on Jewish holidays as well as on Christian holidays. Saves money and time by not holding classes for just a few students. The schools probably wouldn't do that for the Wiccan holidays unless the system had a large number of students from Wicca families.I've always thought so, too. Giving people the day off for Christmas is just intelligent, because they're going to take it off one way or another.

I used to go to a college where, for one week every two years, they re-elected the student Grand Marshal and President of the student union. It culminated after a *WEEK* of various student-run games, parades, contests and activities - and the whole campus got into it. While classes still went on, professors realized the futility of scheduling EXAMS during this period, because the students knew that if they ALL skipped the exam, the onus was on the professor.

It just didn't make sense to schedule exams during a week when no one would show up.

On the other hand -

If the students chose to have dozens of such weeks a semester, that would certainly make the whole point of going to college MOOT. You couldn't cancel the entire semester because no one intended to study.

Similarly, while it's considerate to take into account Jewish and Christian - and now, Muslim - holidays, it can possibly spin out of control once other religions take significant hold here. We'd find half the school year gone for the sake of being 'polite'.

I was making a joke, honey. Create a religion and declare it a holiday so you get the day off. Get it?
Sure. When I was in high school, you couldn't schedule an exam on Yom Kippur. When the class was asked who was *Jewish*, EVERY HAND went up. Why can't you be Jewish for just one day?

We had the exam anyway.

I see the point of respecting religion. I also see the practicality of just HOW much impact one or two absences will have on the practice in the event people start 'inventing' them.

In our case, the lone Jewish student was able to take a make-up exam, without any loss to him.

They didn't "sense" a divine power - they used these "gods" as an easy answer for happenings in their small, unsophisticated lives. "What is that big ball of fire in the sky?" "Must be a god because it gets angry with us and makes our skin red when we're outside too long."
The Bronze Age had a lot of meteor activity. I've read a theory that the vengeful God of the Old Testament and the vengeful Olympian gods in Greek mythology were influenced by this.

Plus, ancient peoples didn't know about trichinosis, so they probably assumed that eating pork was a sin.

When the government closes offices on a religious holiday, it's a matter of administrative convenience, and that's the way it should be. New York City schools close on Jewish holidays as well as on Christian holidays. Saves money and time by not holding classes for just a few students. The schools probably wouldn't do that for the Wiccan holidays unless the system had a large number of students from Wicca families.

...constitutes an establishment of religion and approval of same thereby violating the Constitution and should not happen. Government offiices should be open every day. All day. Out of respect for all religions.

...constitutes an establishment of religion and approval of same thereby violating the Constitution and should not happen. Government offiices should be open every day. All day. Out of respect for all religions.
I disagree, Larry. I believe it would be respecting an establishment of religion if the government intentionally favored only one religion in its holiday schedule. I see the First Amendment as meaning the government shouldn't deliberately play favorites among religions.

Ken, since there are two other threads beating this and related issues to death right now, let me just comment that your editorial was well-written and succinct. I don't believe that your views are compatible with what the Bible says, but you did a good job of stating your opinions.

I see the First Amendment as meaning the government shouldn't deliberately play favorites among religions.

...therefore, open every day. As it it, there is a clear preference and it is impossible to show equitable treatment; except in not closing for any.

Ken, since there are two other threads beating this and related issues to death right now, let me just comment that your editorial was well-written and succinct. I don't believe that your views are compatible with what the Bible says, but you did a good job of stating your opinions.

Wasn't that his point or at least his interpretation?

I believe it would be respecting an establishment of religion if the government intentionally favored only one religion in its holiday schedule. Oh, you mean like Christmas? :really:

Oh, you mean like Christmas? :really:
:lol:

I guess I didn't make my point clear enough. Most school districts in Maryland don't cancel classes for non-Christian holidays simply because it doesn't make administrative or fiscal sense--there aren't that many students and teachers from other religions. If the demographics of the student bodies or faculties changed, I'm sure they would do what New York City schools do. I think it comes down to intent.

Well, this riverboat found a decent little dead-end estuary, didn't it?

The spherical concept of the earth came about sometime during the first century - ever hear of Pliny the Elder? Learned people of Europe had bought into it around the 1100s. If I am not mistaken it was Christian leaders that wanted to hold onto the flat world concept.:

Not to mention Christianity proclaiming the earth as the center of the universe and that the sun orbited the earth. To disgree meant you got labeled as a heretic.

which ones specifically? I personally can not think of any non-judeo christian holidays for whicht the government or schools close. (other than national holidays such as memorial day, labor day, etc. which are not associated with any religion "made up" or otherwise.)

Depends on the state. I think Hawaii takes some major Buddhist holidays off.

I disagree, Larry

You're going to Hell.

Sorry.

You're going to Hell.

Sorry.
:lol: I guess Hell-According-to-Larry would involve being forced to listen to asthmatic chipmunks singing "Tell Laura I Love Her" and "Seasons in the Sun" for all eternity.

...and every 5 minutes you have to watch "Kip" kick his leg up in the air.

...and every 5 minutes you have to watch "Kip" kick his leg up in the air.
:killingme:

:offtopic: for a minute... Winger, like most American hair metal bands, was little more than Top 40 with distortion. Metal is supposed to be angry and aggressive, like with classic British metal and American thrash.

:killingme:

:offtopic: for a minute... Winger, like most American hair metal bands, was little more than Top 40 with distortion. Metal is supposed to be angry and aggressive, like with classic British metal and American thrash.

Metal is, to me, suppossed to be good music. It doesn't have to be angry and aggressive by definition; see much of Maidens work. Phantom of the Opera is perhaps their greatest piece.

It just so happens that metal, like classical music, tends toward the more dramatic and intense themes of life and therefore the lyrics aren't gonna usually be 'Sugar, Sugar".

Winger et al were NOT metal bands. They were pop bands who persued the fad of long hairsprayed hair, spandex and pink guitars. We have this label need so, 'hair metal' came into being to make it simple for idiots to know what everyone meant.

Winger et al would have done disco in the 70's and COuntry and Western in the 80's. Or new wave. Whatever part of the pop swell they were trying to exploit. If they were around today, they'd D tune and try and play Godsmack or Creed or some other Godawful dreck that is curently appealing to the masses.

I pretty much agree with you Ken, except for your comments regarding damning the Gays, which I take to mean prohibiting Gay marriage. Where I do have a problem with people who don't feel that religion should play a substantial role in our lives is that they usually don't see that the door swings both ways. Marriage, for example, was initially a union sanctified by a religion. It wasn't until the govies found a way to make money from it that they got involved in licensing it. The government also came up with civil unions to legally bind couples who can't get married by a church.

So, I think that if people don't want relgion telling them what they, or the government, can't do, then we, or government, have no business telling the churches what they can or can't do. We should not be telling them who they must have as members, who they must marry, where they must meet, etc.

And once more for those of you who missed it, the Founding Fathers were not worried about the government supporting one religion over another as they did that as a matter of course. What they specifically did not want was another King Henry VIII experience. King Henry VIII requested that the Pope permit him to divorce his wife and marry his mistress, and the Pope refused to approve the divorice. As a result, King Henry murdered his wife, married his mistress, and most importantly, renounced Roman Catholicism and took England out from under Rome’s religious control, and declared himself the reigning head of the Anglican Church aka the Church of England. In this position he could change the church's rules and "beliefs" to fit his needs or wants of the day. All of this is painfully ironic today as many people are wanting the federal government to dictate to the churches what their rules should be, which is exactly what the Founding Fathers has hoped to avoid.

I pretty much agree with you Ken, except for your comments regarding damning the Gays, which I take to mean prohibiting Gay marriage.
My comments were directed at the continuous bashing and not the marriage issue. States can be left to determine what is or isn't a marriage as it has been since our founding.

What they specifically did not want was another King Henry VIII experience.
It's been a while since college, but I remember learning that the Founding Fathers also didn't want to repeat the religious wars that England suffered through, such as the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution.

The spherical concept of the earth came about sometime during the first century - ever hear of Pliny the Elder?


Even earlier.


"As early as sixth century B.C., some Greek scholars correctly believed Earth to have a spherical shape." And at about 200 years before Christ, Eratosthenes, the director of the Greek library at Alexsandria, calculated the circumference of Earth trigonometrically. He calculated the circumference of almost 43,000km which is very close to the actual 40,000km.

Info from "Physical Geography" by Tom L. McKnight.

Pythagagoras from the 6th century BC is one of the earliest supporter of theory that the earth is round. Aristotle born in the 4th century BC was another.

Pliny the Elder....He was most famous as a historian and what we know of the eruption of Vesuvius was because of his very detailed descriptions. I also believe if remember correctly he was influenced by Pythagoras.

I love all these comments about "made-up" religions. They were all "made-up", but like wine only age seems to make it good or not. The creator could have come down to the Earth and told people that one religion is better than the other. Now that religion has been made up and it's up to human beings to decide whether to follow it or not.

but like wine only age seems to make it good or not

It's the size of the flock that counts. Many a perfectly fine religion has gone begging because they couldn't build and keep membership.