Isreal the bad guys???

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Ken,

Why do you feel like the Israelis are the problem?

And on what basis do you equate Milosevic (or whatever aggressor of the day in the Balkans) and Saddam Hussein with Israel? There is no “name” like those two hoods that we associate with Israel.

Israel possesses the power to annihilate the Palestinians and pretty much every body else in the area, yet they don’t. Slovo is merely the latest bad guy in an area full of them. Sadam has been trying to take down everybody from his Iraqi brethren to Kuwait, anyone he feels up to being able to beat. But he doesn’t dare mess with the Jews.

The Palestinians are between a rock (and Iraq! Been dying to use that one!) and a hard place, Israel. They’ve been the despised and displaced people of the region for centuries until the Jews made a major stake in the region after WWII and became everybody’s new most hated.

Imagine if the power roles were reversed. What do you think would happen and would you feel the same?

Not many peoples or nations are listed in the charter and culture of other nations as slated for annihilation. Israel is. I think they’ve been bending over backwards to try and get along as best as possible while maintaining their own security.  

As far as the coalition for helping Kuwait, well, if memory serves, W the Elder got them to sit that one out in order to get Arab cooperation. IMHO they are a national interest of ours.

Whatcha think?

[Ken King (Premo)]

Larry,

The Israelis have been bending over backwards as they continue to press their settlements forward into the Palestinian territory.  That is the similarity that I see with those other hoods I mentioned.  They respond to assaults with rocks by using bullets.  Now they are actually assassinating folk that they believe are involved in attacks against these settlers.  These targeted attacks are using weapons that kill others besides those targeted.  Killing innocent children is just another form of terrorism and American acceptance will do nothing to stop it.

The reason Israel was left out of the Gulf War was because if they had been involved there would not have been a coalition, as the Arab states believe that they cannot trust the land-grabbing Israelis.  Sadam tried to draw them into the fray to dissolve the coalition and the elder Bush kept the Israelis out of the fight.

What is the national interest that you see?

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

IMHO, I just see them as allies and a stabilizing force in the region.

You state yourself that the Israelis stayed out of the Kuwait business at our urging: A sign of a cooperating partner or strategic interest. Iraq would not, it seems, do similar favors as their interests do not mesh with ours as the Israelis interests sometimes do.

I can't make an intelligent argument about their land expansion other than for strategic reason: More land a hostile neighbor has to cross before it is too late to stop them.

I don’t doubt that there are problems with how they go about it.

I don't want to make the Israelis out to be Alter Boys or the innocent victims. Pop told me long ago it takes two to tango yet it seems to me that most Israeli attacks over the years have been pre-emptive or retaliatory. Their bombing of Saddams nuke facility some years back seems like a smart move on their part given his overt hostility to Israel.

The news always seems to be showing some Palestinian car bomb killing people in the markets of Israel then they systematically hunt down the perps they can get their hands on. Last week some pregnant Israeli woman was murdered then the alleged mastermind gets assassinated. An Israeli soldier gets ambushed and torn to bits; plastic bullets kill Palestinian rioters. It just always seems like the Palestinian murders are against civilians or lone soldiers and the Israeli response seems aimed at the bad guys.

Continuing with our interests, oil is our one and only real concern. Israel has none to speak of. Maybe they just don’t serve a cold or calculated purpose for us? If so, then certainly the Palestinians are nothing to us either, yes? Israel, if anyone over there, just has always seemed to me to be the underdogs.

Palestinians, as the historical low men on the totem pole, especially with their Muslim brothers, never seem to do anything to set themselves apart as the victims they claim to be. I have a tough time placing more blame on one than the other.

I’m trying to read up more on the history of Palestine and the region to offer more intelligent or informed opinion (darn you! LOL). One site I found made me laugh. It makes these grand statements of facts through history of the Palestinians from something like 600,000 BC and stops at WWI, leaving out their messed up and dysfunctional history in this century, OOPS, the last century, problems they had long before Israel came into it’s current existence.

To be continued…

[Ken King (Premo)]

Larry,

Please don't get me wrong, I think that your Pop was right, it does take two to tango.  The problem, for me at least, is that we are giving lessons to the Israelis (F16's, helicopters, small arms, and the such).   We have equipped them with the ability to swat the flies real hard.  Over the past fifty or so years we have actually endorsed that swatting.  

Today, in this world, we should not hold anyone above the others and accept wrong doing such as what is going on with these "targeted attacks".  We are at odds with most of the world on this and I think we should check our acceptance for a while and make them play by the same rules as we make others in the region play by.

[vraiblonde]

I'm going to show my ignorance and maybe get a history lesson in the process:

I was under the impression that the whole Arab region (which I understand to include Palestine) is quite volatile- they seem to be constantly at war with some other nation or having a conflict of some form.  Israel either isn't as unstable or I just haven't been paying attention.  So it stands to reason that we're going to look more favorably on the Israelis because they don't seem to cause as many problems.

Also, I've been under the impression that the Palestinians tend to buddy up with Iraq and those nutcases, so it also seems reasonable that we wouldn't be interested in offering them any protection.  Also, I believe Israel is our ally, to some extent, so we stick up for them against the "renegades".

When I don't understand something, I tend to look at who is taking the sides then go with the opposite of whatever the idiots are saying.  The UN is a bunch of idiots.  Their hippie-have-a-nice-day crap gets under my skin.  They are pro-Palestine, therefore I'm against.

I say we let the Israelis and Palestinians duke it out - last one left standing gets the land.  After all, <b>that's</b> the American Way.

[Ken King (Premo)]

Vraiblonde,

Yes that region is volatile and will probably remain so for several years to come.  This is one of the issues that keeps the volatility high.  The land taken to create Israel was taken from the local Arabs.  Those idiots in the UN that you talk about did this.  So shouldn’t you be against the Israelis based on your comments.

When oil was first found in the region (little if any in the area defined as Israel) we had a strategic interest in obtaining a foothold in the region.   Now that our relations with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others in the area have grown the need to coddle the Israelis is less.

Let them duke it out!!  I could go for that if they were fighting with similar gear or were even closely balanced in ability.  The Israelis have at their access numerous weapons that we have built while the Palestinians are left to whatever they can scrape up.  The other Arab nations have seen the disparity and have made some of their arms available to the Palestinians to protect themselves.  It is still an imbalance as the Israelis have an American trained Air Force and planes to exact whatever toll the desire.  

By all of our actions in support of Israel we have created a monster.  One that spies on us to further advance their ability of mass destruction.  One that hides criminals from our justice system by affording them full citizenship and makes a mockery of our system by giving a murderer a seven year sentence.  The Israelis have become arrogant with our assistance and in my mind are getting out of control.  The feel they can do whatever they want as long as they can back it militarily.  Whether that be colonizing other’s land or assassinating those that they see as a threat.  

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

"Let them duke it out!!  I could go for that if they were fighting with similar gear or were even closely balanced in ability.  The Israelis have at their access numerous weapons that we have built while the Palestinians are left to whatever they can scrape up. "

Ken, what the hell is that all about!

That's why I like them guys; they come from the George Smith Patton school of thought! Fair fights in war are for movies and the idea is not to die for your country but let the other dumb sob's die for THEIRS!

Israel fought for what they have and the stories of scraping together whatever they could to fight for survival back in the 50's and 60's are legendary. I think it's easy to pick on the big guy and call him "bully" once he gets big, but they worked for it. They built it. And in the mean time the Palestinians have done...???

The Israelis have done and are doing to us what other allies have done and are doing: Act in their own national interest. We spy as well, on friend and foe.

I am way to humble to mention the latest atrocity our Palestinians friends have wrought. I would never bring up yesterdays car bomb where 15 more civilians were murdered and 130 more sent to the hospital just to make a cheap point. No way. Not me. Did you hear the thing was filled with nails and other shrapnel for maximum effect? Did you know that it was named for an English inventor, Henry Scrapnel? I wouldn’t stoop to mention that Arafat, while expressing regret that it happened, blames it on Sharon. Not me!

Look, the place has been cohabitated for centuries and for centuries they’ve been killing each other. The Israelis are definitely racist towards Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. They are brawling, currently, over land that Israel took in ’67 and has given up and reclaimed in some form or another since then. It’s a mess, absolutely, but Yassir Arafat is not standing in the middle of the street challenging Ariel Sharon to duke it out, mano y mano. I suspect Sharon would take him up on it in a New York Jewish Deli minute.

Anytime I get in an argument about race in the US, I gladly point to the Middle East and the Balkans and, hell, most of the rest of the world to illustrate how bad racism can be and how far we, the US people, have come.

I still say the Israelis are the underdogs and the Palestinians haven’t shown me much in the way of a will for peace, short of the extinction of Jews.

How 'bout them gefilte fish?

[Ken King (Premo)]

Larry,

Be assured that I do not condone either side or their tactics.  These people need to sit down and work out their differences at all costs.  The killing is senseless and needs to stop.  Since we apparently have some influence over both countries we should work to stop it.  Including cessation of supplying the Israelis with hardcore military hardware.  

Like you, I won’t mention the Israeli response using sophisticated American hardware to selectively retaliate against an undefended location.  I would never do that nor would I bring about the fact that the Israelis are enjoying an approximate 4 to 1 kill ratio in the recent activity.  You know me I wouldn’t stoop to such mean and twisted tactics to further my point.  Hell, I won’t even continue to point out that the Israelis have consistently and continuously laid claim to others land and expect general acceptance from all.

I enjoyed that as much as you did I bet.  Anyway, got any ideas on what would be a good way to get this under control.  I’ve been toying with the idea of making Jerusalem a country unto itself somewhat like Vatican City with a shared government of Christians, Hebrews, and Muslims.  What do you think?

[Frank]

How 'bout them gefilte fish?

It's off-topic, but did you catch Rush Hour 2 yet? For once, #Jackie Chan is NOT the one who can't say gefilte fish!

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Frank, we're arguing here. LOL.

Ken, maybe I'm just to cynical, but I really feel like the US is the only nation that has laid down, in writing, rules and ideas that go against human nature and human history: Our ideas of limited government of the folks by the folks and for the folks.

Yeah, we got some problems but you CAN make it, whatever IT is, in the good old US. You can sue your g'mint. You can win.

Everybody else lives, basically, by the golden rule: He who has it rules.

Until the Israelis and Palestinians (and Russians and Chinese and everybody else) actually lay out laws that are an individual oriented thought of government then I see NO way to "fix" the problems. They just ebb and flow from violence to control to violence again. They polish turds.

I mean, we do stupid stuff to ourselves all the time, but the point is we are free to screw it up. I know that sounds stupid, but the rest of the world is just stuck in age-old biases and religious intolerances, ethnic divisions and just downright hatred that inevitably boils down to violence.

That's why I'm so opposed to preference legislation and hate crimes stuff here at home. You should be free to be a bigot or hate whites or blacks or straights or gays. You just cannot hurt a person or their property. How is somebody gonna be proved wrong unless they express themselves and then get to eat crow? The Klan used to be a big deal here; now, they are viewed as nut balls. Jesse Jackson is seen for what he is: A race-baiting extortionist. David Duke is rejected nationally. Farakan is amusing. But, these folks served a purpose: Get the issues out in the open so we can tear ‘em apart and REALLY look at them. Look at oursleves.

Let people be ignorant and in time, generations learn. Time, that's the thing. We all expect instant results or it is no good. It took us 80 some years to fess up to our "All men are created equal" bit, the American Civil War. Probably another 100 years to really mean it but we live in an age where it is considered stupid and ugly to base opinion on race. Everywhere else it is a matter of fact. What other cultural majority, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME successfully fought themselves to elevate a minority? We have much to be proud of as human beings.

That's why the whiners about gay/race rights piss me off. Where does this happen anymore? You gonna refuse treatment from a black doctor? Not let a gay plumber fix your pipes? (That's kinda funny!). For crying out loud our women drive and vote!

I mean, we ain't perfect, but by and large we are so ahead of the rest of the world in basic human rights and dignity and these groups run around crying like it's the middle east or the Balkans. They seem to NEED that basic discomfort with that which is unfamiliar. They KNOW you are mean and ignorant. Only THEY are enlightened. It's institutional around the world. Here, we have laws that we back up.

We don’t celebrate people who kill others in this nation and I think there is a reason and that we kinda own the franchise on it.

We tend to view these hot spots in our eyes: Let’s get our lawyers together, certainly we can work it out or at least one of us will win in court. These people hate each other. They think the other less human. They have a long way to go and I really don’t think we can do squat. The loser is gonna kill the winner if the winner doesn't kill him first.

I still feel that the Israelis are of some strategic interest to us. I KNOW that if the Palestinians wrote a US style Constitution and Bill of rights and started behaving by the rule of law, THEY would become in our interests. They won’t. They celebrate terrorists.
We love selling hardware to good old boys who like John Wayne movies.

Maybe I’m wrong, but, all warts aside, the Israelis appear to be more for the individual than their neighbors, so, we support them.  

Hell if I know!