Charles County To Get Speed Cameras

[kwillia]

Originally Posted by corollinout

So your saying that we should take cameras out of banks and gas stations that's never been robbed because what are the chances?

This sounds like the same argument to me.

[thurley42]

Originally Posted by bcp

What you are hearing is that people are just going totally stupid on you becuase your arguments are weak.
it does not matter why they put the camera up. If you dont want to pay, dont speed
If you do want to pay then speed, and accept my appreciation for doing your part to keep my taxes lower than they could be without your contributions.

His arguments are the only ones that aren't weak. He backs everything up with articles and references reenforcing his points. Your argument is if you don't like it don't speed.

People get so outraged about The government intervening on issues that don't really affect them, But when the government puts up more cameras to monitor us, they can't wait for it.

[glhs837]

Originally Posted by bcp

What you are hearing is that people are just going totally stupid on you becuase your arguments are weak.
it does not matter why they put the camera up. If you dont want to pay, dont speed If you do want to pay then speed, and accept my appreciation for doing your part to keep my taxes lower than they could be without your contributions.

If my argument (that the systems are not installed for safety, but for profit) is weak, demonstrate how that is so. And it does matter. If they lie in the process of doing a thing (tell us it's about safety), and make fake things (new school zones, lower speed limits)to support that thing, how can the thing itself be a good thing? Are you okay with the end (lower taxes) justifying the means (lying and making up bogus school zones)?

You just keep saying the same thing over, as if it negates my argument. But I agree with the point that if you dont want that ticket, dont speed in school zones. Enforcement solely for profit is wrong. It encourages corruption. And allowing corporations to control any aspect of law enforcement when they have a profit motive is wrong. And letting politicians change patterns/speed limits solely to enhance revenue is wrong. How do all these wrongs make a right?

1. The cameras have no safety benefit. Fact

2. The politicians who support these are at best willfully ignorant, at worst corrupt. Fact.

3. The companies who sell/maintain/operate these systems operate them soley for profit (as they should) Fact

Bring what you have in the way of facts that show these points to be wrong.

[corollinout]

Originally Posted by glhs837

If my argument (that the systems are not installed for safety, but for profit) is weak, demonstrate how that is so. And it does matter. If they lie in the process of doing a thing (tell us it's about safety), and make fake things (new school zones, lower speed limits)to support that thing, how can the thing itself be a good thing? Are you okay with the end (lower taxes) justifying the means (lying and making up bogus school zones)?

You just keep saying the same thing over, as if it negates my argument. But I agree with the point that if you dont want that ticket, dont speed in school zones. Enforcement solely for profit is wrong. It encourages corruption. And allowing corporations to control any aspect of law enforcement when they have a profit motive is wrong. And letting politicians change patterns/speed limits solely to enhance revenue is wrong. How do all these wrongs make a right?

1. The cameras have no safety benefit. Fact

2. The politicians who support these are at best willfully ignorant, at worst corrupt. Fact.

3. The companies who sell/maintain/operate these systems operate them soley for profit (as they should) Fact Who can blame a company for trying? haha

Bring what you have in the way of facts that show these points to be wrong.

Just so I wouldn't be wrong by saying this, I went through and reread everything I posted, and not once have I said or debated about anything safety wise. I have argued the fact that the cameras are for behavior modification. I may not have the stats off hand as I've said, I just maintain, design, and build the cameras, peons like me don't get behind the scenes political stuff. I'm only in it for my 2 hour ride to work every day and my paycheck. What should I care about the written stats?

Behavior Modification, I don't know one person that would speed through every camera every day. Even though its only $40 for the ticket, 10 times will equal $400. Maybe there have not been a lot of accidents in school zones, as you have shown with your stats, but I would say that if you curve behavior to slow down, if there happens to be an accident, its a lot better to be at 35mph than 50mph plus.

One camera set up getting 1500 violations, averaging speeds were 60mph with the highest I saw 75mph. This is in a 25mph residential zone. Now the average speed is around 40mph will around 300 violations a day. Again I don't have this on paper. What's funny, the picture in the original article, is the camera I am talking about. I have had a lot of compliments from the residents about how they can actually cross the street to get to the bus stop without worrying about getting run down.

If it is all about money, than why not do something more extreme, and have the buffer at 5mph? True, money is involved, but you think people will react to a warning? Why not use police and put one at every school to run radar? Then you can get the points, and the higher fines. Why pay maintenance fees for something that's only going to pull money for a few months then drop off?

My comment about the cameras in banks and gas stations, if they weren't there how high would robberies go? There's nothing to curve the behavior, and people still do it, but with cameras, it is a lot less than what it could be.

Oh, and last but probably not least, I don't work Maryland so I can only go by what I know. Most the cameras set up are asked for by citizens getting tired of people flying through their street.

I know I said lets not get personal, but really, your debate skills leave a bit to be desired.

Sorry, I haven't brushed up on my internet debate skills, I'm usually doing something a little more productive than searching the internet for stats, that to most people, mean nothing.

[glhs837]

Ah, so you work in the industry. Now thats a POV we havent had, and lends credence to your numbers, even without a reference. So, I will concede the behavior modification. But here's a thing about that. The press releases, they don't talk about that, they talk about safety, preventing tragedy. Ones that haven't happened in living memory, perhaps, but still. They sell it on safety.

I defy you to find me one instance of a citizenry (not a fake grassroots one) clamoring for cameras, at least before the camera industry starts the PR campaigns. Which campaigns and favorable media coverage are actually written into contracts as things the company will provide. Along with "grassroots" organizations bought and paid for by the industry. Here in MD, the big players, ATS and a couple of others, spent $600,000 dollars in one year soley to lobby lawmakers. Would they need such convincing were their constituents clamoring for them?

I don't blame the companies for trying to make a buck, that's what companies do. I do blame them for instances of outright dishonesty in pursuit of those dollars. Lobbying, legal. Fake grassroots, legal, but slimy. But there have been cases elsewhere where officers of the law have been paid back for favorable testimony to lawmakers with lavish trips with attractive industry lobbyists. And that's wrong.

Here in MD, the biggest illegalities surround the fact that state law forbids a few things. One is making school zones soley for the cameras, and the other is contracts that pay on a per citation basis. Both of these laws are routinely ignored, and the courts have shown no interest in making anyone comply.

Lastly, why 12mph and why only $40? Simple, same reason it's only school zones. The industry has learned from previous encounters that once you enrage the citizenry enough, they will find a way to get rid of you. So fines are low, and the limit is high, so folks can say "Well, its only the people really speeding". Like any good parasite, it knows not to hurt the host too much, or the host will scrape it off.

And I dont spend a lot of time looking this stuff up. I have been interested in this subject for years, and so have gathered a large body of knowledge on it, most of it I can recall quite easily. I enjoy a lot of other stuff, family, home improvement, brewing beer, enjoying my car and motorcycle. Sad that my commute is only seven minutes some days:) Worked from 7-11am, then 630-1030 today as a matter of fact:)

[corollinout]

Originally Posted by glhs837

And I dont spend a lot of time looking this stuff up. I have been interested in this subject for years, and so have gathered a large body of knowledge on it, most of it I can recall quite easily. I enjoy a lot of other stuff, family, home improvement, brewing beer, enjoying my car and motorcycle. Sad that my commute is only seven minutes some days:) Worked from 7-11am, then 630-1030 today as a matter of fact:)

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.

[Baja28 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by FaP

Who do you think is paying to have these cameras installed & for the cameras? Also for the software and maintenance? That's right - the tax payers.
When I read that article and seen that no points or nothing will be shown to insurance companies I was just shaking my head. Like GLHS has said, just a cheap way to gain revenue. Agree with TPD & glhs 100%.

I would much rather have my tax money going to an officer to enforce these laws than some camera operated by the government that's spending on nothing but junk.

Don't speed when you're stalking minor girls and you won't get a ticket.

[glhs837]

Originally Posted by corollinout

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.

Well, if it were not making money, for profit companies wouldnt be into it. Here in MD, one of the smaller players....

Brekford Corp Reports Full-Year Revenue Increase Up 44%; Full-Year, Fully Diluted EPS Up 300% (OTCBB:BFDI)

Full-Year Financial Results

Revenues for the year ended December 31, 2011 were $16,716,560 compared to $11,608,828 for the year ended December 31, 2010, an increase of $5,107,733 or 44.0%, primarily due to the addition of our automated traffic enforcement products which had minimal revenue in 2010. The company launched the automated traffic enforcement business initiative in December of 2010 and saw a full year effect of growth in this service in 2011.

Others like ACS and Redflex have actually lost ground in recent years, thanks to large scale contract cancellations like AZ. In AZ, Redflex lost over $13 million. ACS, seeing the writing on the wall, has focused on overseas markets, because here in this country, they have been reduced to a sort of carpetbagging, at least on a state level, pitching the gov for permissive laws, then deploying until people get fed up and vote them out. Most action these days seems to be small contracts on a local level, city, and county. But Washington state has seen it's revolt start, as has Texas. SO, citizens have asked, but how many? And what other methods have been tried to slow traffic? The NHTSA recommends engineering solutions first. But that makes no money.

[gemma_rae]

Originally Posted by corollinout

When the job market tumbles, you take what you can get. I never put a thought to this subject until I saw what the trends were, unless you count the two tickets I got before working in the industry.

I do believe they have their good points and bad points, but the main point I have been trying to make is, if it is a ploy to only make money, there are more guaranteed ways to doing it. With the warning signs of the upcoming speed camera, 30 day warning period, and the fact that all the citizen needs to do is slow down for about 200 yards, it doesn't seem like a 100% money maker. One was just installed at a school on my commute, I can tell the behavior change since people used to drag race to the point of going from two lanes into one, now it is a lot more calm.

As far as the citizens asking for them. They are internal emails from the citizen, so I couldn't post any of those, remember the job market isn't great, but they are in residential places where the average speed before the camera was close to double the speed limit.

Also cameras have been used by law enforcement to get information for crimes, mostly the red light cameras, but working one early morning a van passed a camera doing 98mph with two police officers in tow. Clean plate capture.

My old commute was 20 minutes, I'd take it back in a heart beat. I can't stand traffic and the way other people drive. Beer brewing sounds like something I need to get into to save a few bucks.

I know this is a little off topic but, is it okay to speed through school zones at 128 MPH if you're test driving a Lexus?

[corollinout]

Only if its an LFA and I believe it was closer to 140 and not in a school zone. I could be mistaken though.