Harry Potter...

[Jimmyrich]

Well said, Valentino!!  I'm curious to see Hessian's response...oh and you two aren't alone in attempts to change the way you deal with that you find contrary to your beliefs...we can ALL learn to be a bit more tolerant of others...I think this is a serious good that such forums can do for all of us...

[Hessian]

"Hessian, we are all sinners if we believe that something we do is actually called a sin."

Valentino...your years in the Christian school/church are coming back to you now...But, its NOT up to what we believe that determines sin...Its up to what God has labelled sin.
AND you're absolutely correct: "All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God."
The world has started to avoid certain words: "Sin" "Liar" and "evil" is among them (remember when the press went berserk when Reagan called the USSR the "Evil Empire?") We we'ren't even allowed to call Clinton a "liar"...no, it was dismissed in legal jabberwocky.
Now we get to "Sin"...we don't get to make up what is sin--that was determined in the OT & NT. So, when a movie has a frollicking "good" time in the spirit world of conjuring, spell casting, potions, curses, communication with the dead.--My God said stay away from those things (see BBC's post a while back)---its SIN.
Those who dismiss it and say its innocent fun, well...they do not have the Holy Spirit reminding them of what is right & wrong...rather they have a fuzzy vague notion of blurred gray zones and a perspective of the "Biggies" as being wrong (murder, rape, stealing...and a few more)
Are they lost? Yes.
Is there hope? Yes...but not from their works-they have to recognize their separation from God-nobody can do it for them.

Can Christians urge people to avoid sin? Sure...I tried and got hammered for it (I was even called Bin laden and informed I taught in a Hitler school yesterday!)
We actually expect that...Christ said that we would be hated by the world. Will I stop warning people? No.
Will I listen to and "tolerate" opinions/positions different from mine? Of course! Paul did when he was trying to convince the Greeks near Athens. But I will not tolerate distortions of my faith or be forced to accept man's law over God's law....the Martyrs of the Reformation paid dearly for that principle.
Veritas.

[valentino]

Hessian

I am glad that we agree sort of, but my point was that it seems wrong to me to urge someone not to sin, by telling them you wish to sin.  Just because it is different things each of you may be doing, does not make you right and them wrong or vice versa.  Oh well though, you all will fight your points forever, and that is what this forum is for, so have fun, and best of luck to you all.

[Hessian]

Ok...thought I might take some time and survey what's out there on our Dark friend Harry.

Take a look at these sites...they have a little range in them and I won't endorse one above the other...its just a broad survey of Christians opposed to HP.

http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/Harry9-99.html

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

http://pacific.telebyte.com/~jimbaum/harry.htm

http://www.albertweb.com/news/editorials/ed-isharrypotterevil.htm

Yes, I know some will dismiss these folks as psycho rightist fanatic fundamentalist etc...but, hey, They DO believe in something.
Veritas.

[Jimmyrich]

Hessian--
You're right!  These sites were written by psycho, rightists, fanatic fundamentalists.  Good call!
"Check out the "S" on his head"???  THAT is used as evidence that this is CLEARLY vieled satanism?  Good lord, that's ridiculous.  I mean, c'mon. You can argue that seeing/reading things like this book might not totally mesh with Christian doctrine but do you honestly believe that either (a) J.K. Rowling is a Satanist at heart and is trying to turn kids on to the devil or (b) Satan himself had anything to do with inspiring/writing this book?  These websites you posted are all from people and sources that are just as off about this as you are and which use your same reasoning. Show me an objective viewpoint or source that condemns Harry Potter in this way. This would be like my supporting my arguement by going to a Harry Potter fanclub site and quoting 8 year old Ashley Montaus who calls the books "super-cool!" and "better than Pokemon!" I had hoped that your "examples" of Dark Harry Potter would be better than that...but oh well...At least you've been consistant...

[valentino]

I find it funny that people would condemn something that they know nothing about.  True witchcraft does not call upon demons or the dead.  They do not even believe there is a satan, let alone worship him.  I really think that knowledge is the key here, take the time to learn a little more about what you are condeming before you do so.  It would be the same for me to say that one christian person I know did something I do not like, so therefore, I hate all christians.  That is not true of course, but it could be if I did not take the time to get to know others for who they were, not just what I thought they believed.  It amazes me that all of those sites you posted talk about god saying that witchcraft and the like should not even be discussed.  Why not?  I really do not feel that god should have anything against a religion that only wishes good for others, nature, and all living things.  There are plenty of groups out there that practice things that I would not condone, but I am not talking about them, I am just supporting the true wiccans.  Not as bad as people think, now that I know more and have taken the time to learn instead of judge.
So peace, love and all that sh*t
to you all.

[Hessian]

Valentino,...what we have is the issue of deception. I have heard several people relate how they began dabbling in "good" spells, "white magic" and would never have "worshipped Satan"-but just like many drugs, a little was not enough and they kept digging themselves deeper into it. Go ahead, peal off a couple layers: What will you find underneath? These Wicca oddballs are deluded. if you are worshipping nature, you've started worshipping the creation instead of the creator,...and the deception begins. There is a spirit world out there, it is not friendly, "spirit guides" and little voices--ARE NOT THE WAY GOD REVEALS HIMSELF. How can I be so sure? None of those "little voices" are saying "read the Bible, hide it in your heart, attend church, live moral and upright lives."
instead they are saying "Live for yourself, you are the master of your universe, only you know what is true, all of nature is good, blah blah, blah.
Hey Wicca folks: 1)nature is fallen 2)You are decieved and misled as to what is true...and no, you are not a god Shirley Maclane, 3) Dabbling in the spirit world begins a downward spiral.
Veritas.

[Jimmyrich]

Ahhhh!  That's more like it! The ignorant side of Hessain returns!
You continue to destroy your credibility with every condemnation of any person (or entire group of people) that think differently from you. Now, it's the Wiccans?  Jesus Christ, man you just won't open your eyes will you?  Wiccan "oddballs" as you so tellingly call them, are merely searching for answers just like anyone else.  And while I personally see no truth in their assessment of the world around us, I think yours is just as bunk as well.  Hell, mine is probably bunk too. But at least I'm open enough to admit that.  All this talk of "deception" and "paths leading to the dark side"; you're such a fear-mongering-chicken little, Hessian.  All these Wiccans you "know of" that have turned to Satanists....Wiccans don't even belive in Satan! So what are you talking about?? Again, you are condeming things that you know little to nothing of.
And the spirit guides and voices NOT being the way God reaveals himself?  How about a burning bush? Or a dove? Or angles? Or Revealing dreams?  See, all that is as supernatural and implausable sounding as talking to a tree or getting in touch with mother earth. Funny how one guy sits in front of a bush, one in front of a tree and the one guy looks at the other guy and goes: "weirdo".
People fear what they do not understand. YOU, Hessian, fear that which you do not understand. Which I feel, in your case, amounts to just about everything in this world apart from the beliefs with which you are comfortable.
You seem to be suffering from WizardofOzaphobia; in as much as you are SO fearful that someone will "pay attention to the man behind the curtain". You don't want people to figure things out for themselves. You don't want someone to come to a conclusion that threatens the veracity of your own beliefs. You don't want people to know that "Hessian" has only as much of a clue about what's really going on in the world as everyone else does.  You are a frightened man. You are frightened that your ways and beliefs are falling by the wayside. And not because you're frightened that the "world has lost its way". If your vision of God is correct, you'll be sitting right at his side when the "S" hits the fan. So why be so concerned?  Why feel the need to press everyone to join in your beliefs?
Simple. It's cult mentality. And it's what keeps a LOT of those fundamentalist groups going strong. Fear, deception, exaggeration, judgement, condemnation, hatred; these aren't the tools of the Devil. These are the very things YOU have brought to this table each and every time you post something here supporting your beliefts or belittling others. So keep it up, keep proving my points for me over and over again.  Prove yourself continually to be ignorant of that which you speak and hopefully, some people here will be enticed to move AWAY from your type of one-sided thinking and towards a more open mind...

[Hessian]

Front Page Washington Post 12/14
"Va. Scientist was Killed With Sword"
3 Suspects Interested in Occult and Witchcraft, friends say.

The story relates the tale of woe for three wiccans who butchered a man in his house and mutilated his body. ages of the culprits? Teens (18 & 19) They were in a coven and guess what..
PAGE A 11 "She said the coven was peaceful."
Page A11 "They said she excelled in art class and often read fantasy novels."

They shirked responsibilities, were unemployed, mutilated themselves, drank blood, wore black etc etc etc but the most important thing...
"They were peaceful"
What utter garbage! Next we'll hear they worshipped nature and listen for mother Earth to speak to them.

Why can't people put 2 + 2 together??????????
Dabbling in the occult and having "fun" with the dark side and worshipping nature is all related here-and this is the result...one butchered citizen. "Fantasy and Fantasy world" popped up immediately in the article.

Come on parents...use a little common sense and keep your kids away from occult related works like Harry Potter.There are plenty of other great classics to get them interested in.
Veritas.

(Edited by Hessian at 8:16 pm on Dec. 17, 2001)

[PmoneyandTT]

Hessian - Fear equals a lack of faith.

And your far from that. The whole world will be deceived.