31,000 Scientist Say No To Global Warming

[Lugnut]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

Greenhouse gases have a greater effect on earth's temperature than the sun, because the power emitted by the sun is essentially a constant (to be completely accurate, it varies by 1/10 of 1% on a reoccurring 11 year cycle). Consequently, the amount of power projected from the sun to the earth is also essentially constant: 1/2 the earth is always illuminated, 1/2 is always shadowed.

How much of the sun's power is actually absorbed on earth, and how much of the earth's heat is shed back into space - are largely governed by the composition of our atmosphere, which is much more variable than the sun's power. In that regard, more water vapor in the atmosphere means more of the sun's energy is reflected back into space (more cooling); more GHG mean less of the earth's heat is radiated back into space (less cooling). But the output of the sun remains essentially constant, and has little effect on the heat balance of the earth as a whole.

:edited for clarity

That's pretty scary.... I mean, the sun is how many miles away? And it can knock out whole power grids with a little'ole solar cough. Those green house gas's are right here in our back yard! Can you imagine the potential for disaster?!?!

So uh, how many watts/ergs/joules do those green house gas's produce?

[The Oyster Guy]

Originally Posted by MMDad

Wrong.

NASA - Top Story - SATELLITE FINDS WARMING "RELATIVE" TO HUMIDITY - March 15, 2004


If you were correct, more heat = more water vapor = more cooling. That would be a self regulating system that would result in no net temperature increase. But since you are not correct, that doesn't matter.

Since when did the GW deniers begin citing NASA? NASA are the folks that say anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is real... OK, so I should have been more specific and said "cloud vapor", rather than just water vapor - but it all goes back to how the content of earth's atmosphere governs the flow of heat energy to/from the surface of the earth.
Climate Science: Roger Pielke Sr. Research Group News » Tropical Water Vapor and Cloud Feedbacks in Climate Models: A Further Assessment Using Coupled Simulations by De-Zheng Sun, Yongqiang Yu, and Tao Zhang

And the earth (on the whole, evaluated as a system) maintains a heat equilibrium precisely because it IS a self regulating system. That's what GW is all about, fer crying out loud - the question of whether the equilibrium is shifting to a higher average temperature because the variables that influence the rates of heat transfer to/from the planet surface are changing. Go take a course in thermodynamics and heat transfer, and maybe then you'll be able to debate GW more intelligently.

[Lugnut]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

OK, so I should have been more specific and said "cloud vapor", rather than just water vapor

What's the difference?

[The Oyster Guy]

Originally Posted by SamSpade

I think the original remarks were addressing the fact that were it not for the sun, the earth would be a stone cold lifeless rock in space, and virtually all heat on earth derives from it. Without it AT ALL, the effect of greenhouse gases would be irrelevant.

...yes, the sun *does* heat the earth, that is a given - but it isn't responsible for GW because the sun's power output doesn't significantly change. The weather isn't cloudy one day and sunny the next because the sun decided to crank it up a notch: it's almost exclusively the atmosphere (its effect on the ability of heat to transfer to/from space and earth) that's responsible for establishing the temperature of earth.

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

Since when did the GW deniers begin citing NASA? NASA are the folks that say anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is real... OK, so I should have been more specific and said "cloud vapor", rather than just water vapor - but it all goes back to how the content of earth's atmosphere governs the flow of heat energy to/from the surface of the earth.
Climate Science: Roger Pielke Sr. Research Group News » Tropical Water Vapor and Cloud Feedbacks in Climate Models: A Further Assessment Using Coupled Simulations by De-Zheng Sun, Yongqiang Yu, and Tao Zhang

And the earth (on the whole, evaluated as a system) maintains a heat equilibrium precisely because it IS a self regulating system. That's what GW is all about, fer crying out loud - the question of whether the equilibrium is shifting to a higher average temperature because the variables that influence the rates of heat transfer to/from the planet surface are changing. Go take a course in thermodynamics and heat transfer, and maybe then you'll be able to debate GW more intelligently.

My, my, you are rather testy. You don't like being wrong, do you?

That was a nice back pedal, by the way. "I should have been more specific." No, you were plenty specific. You were just wrong, and you changed your argument when it was pointed out to you.

I can use NASA for data because I am not biased. I am not a GW denier, I am someone who cares to actually look at the facts instead of blindly choosing a side and ignoring all information that disagrees. You should try that sometime. Look at all sides of an argument, and try to find the truth. Of course, it takes a little more effort than just watching Al Gore's movie, so I don't really expect you to do it.

It appears that I understand far more about thermodynamics and heat transfer than you do. Clouds actually absorb/trap more heat than they reflect back into space.

Please try to use a coherent argument based on actual science. Your emotional ramblings make you look sort of dumb.

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Lugnut

What's the difference?

Water vapor is humidity. You can have a very humid day without clouds.

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

...yes, the sun *does* heat the earth, that is a given - but it isn't responsible for GW because the sun's power output doesn't significantly change. The weather isn't cloudy one day and sunny the next because the sun decided to crank it up a notch: it's almost exclusively the atmosphere (its effect on the ability of heat to transfer to/from space and earth) that's responsible for establishing the temperature of earth.

You delight in being wrong, don't you?

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/p.../0310823v1.pdf

The current high level of solar activity may also have
an impact on the terrestrial climate. We note a general
similarity between our long-term SN reconstruction and
different reconstructions of temperature [28, 29]: (1) both
SN and temperature show a slow decreasing trend just
prior to 1900, followed by a steep rise that is unprecedented
during the last millenium;

[Lugnut]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

...yes, the sun *does* heat the earth, that is a given - but it isn't responsible for GW because the sun's power output doesn't significantly change. The weather isn't cloudy one day and sunny the next because the sun decided to crank it up a notch: it's almost exclusively the atmosphere (its effect on the ability of heat to transfer to/from space and earth) that's responsible for establishing the temperature of earth.

You're not very clear. Are you trying to say the sun is NOT the primary energy source behind weather?

Originally Posted by MMDad

You can have a very humid day without clouds.

Ah but can you have clouds without humidity?!

His post suggests that there is a difference between water vapor and cloud vapor. I want to know what he thinks the difference is.

[The Oyster Guy]

Originally Posted by MMDad

My, my, you are rather testy. You don't like being wrong, do you?

That was a nice back pedal, by the way. "I should have been more specific." No, you were plenty specific. You were just wrong, and you changed your argument when it was pointed out to you.

I can use NASA for data because I am not biased. I am not a GW denier, I am someone who cares to actually look at the facts instead of blindly choosing a side and ignoring all information that disagrees. You should try that sometime. Look at all sides of an argument, and try to find the truth. Of course, it takes a little more effort than just watching Al Gore's movie, so I don't really expect you to do it.

It appears that I understand far more about thermodynamics and heat transfer than you do. Clouds actually absorb/trap more heat than they reflect back into space.

Please try to use a coherent argument based on actual science. Your emotional ramblings make you look sort of dumb.

...then tell me the forms/modes of heat transfer in thermodynamics. And don't google.

As far as clouds and their effect on heat transfer, there's more than one analysis of their effect (stabilizing influence or positive feedback function). If you're willing to cite NASA, I'm willing to cite the Heartland Institute: clouds reflect more energy than they trap. Clouds Mitigate Global Warming, New Evidence Shows - by Steven Milloy - The Heartland Institute

[Lugnut]

Originally Posted by The Oyster Guy

...then tell me the forms/modes of heat transfer in thermodynamics. And don't google.

Well that's not fair! This is the internet, it's not about right and wrong, it's about who can use Google the best!