$730,000,000,000

[This_person]

Originally Posted by MMDad

Is it? Congress "investigated" and found no evidence of improper practices. Do you have something to share?

I still believe it is supply and demand. We demand it, we're willing to pay the price, and we pay it. We've reduced our demand in the US, but China scoops that up and keeps demand right where it was.

There are only two solutions to this: reduce global demand, or get out of the global market.

Speculators are a distraction that really has nothing to do with the problem. It's a lot easier to blame some nameless "speculators" than it is to blame ourselves for our excessive consumption and unwillingness to use alternatives.

If we're willing to pay the price, and we choose to not see any alternatives as something we want, how is our consumption "excessive"?

This is a comment that always bothers me... why is the fact that we use more "excessive"? Should we make people in other countries drive more, and heat their homes more, etc., etc., so that it evens out?

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by This_person

The wind component just doesn't make sense to me, though. Unreliable, inefficient, enormous land waste, etc., etc.

The wind component makes a lot of sense in certain areas. It is relatively reliable and efficient in places that have consistent winds. It is not a land waste in places like Texas where you can put them on otherwise unused land. Farmland can also be used. Mountain passes in California have been used for decades because they natural funnel and intensify even light winds.

The only problem is the initial infrastructure expense, and the time it takes to recoup that expense. It hasn't made fiscal sense in the past, but as oil prices rise, it is becoming more feasible.

[onebdzee (Premo)]

My oldest told me this morning that the price of diesel where he is in Korea is $1.89 a liter....which is close to $8 a gallon....he said that the price of gas is about a dollar per gallon less

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by MMDad

Is it? Congress "investigated" and found no evidence of improper practices. Do you have something to share?

...and I never said there was anything 'improper' or 'illegal' or 'smelly' about it. In fact, I've gone to great lengths to explain the nature of it and it's legislative lineage. Legal and right are not necessarily the same thing.

With the crap dollar, crap housing and crap economy, money tries to find a good place to go. When some money finds a good place, more follows. Then it stampedes. That's all this is.

If you believe in the illusion of supply and demand and $150 a barrel oil, could you explain what happened to supply and demand yesterday that caused oil to DROP 6%? Did demand drop 6% yesterday? Did supply expand 6% yesterday? Was it 3% up for supply, 3% down for demand? Care to speculate?

As far as that goes, do you honestly think natural supply and demand accounts for oil going from $50 to $150 the last 12 months?

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by This_person

If we're willing to pay the price, and we choose to not see any alternatives as something we want, how is our consumption "excessive"?

This is a comment that always bothers me... why is the fact that we use more "excessive"? Should we make people in other countries drive more, and heat their homes more, etc., etc., so that it evens out?

If we're willing to pay the price, why is 90% of the country whining about prices? Why are SUV sales plummeting? "Excessive" use got us these high prices. If you don't think prices are too high, then in your opinion we don't have excessive use. I disagree.

If you are able to earn (produce) $30,000 per year, but spend (use) $100,000 per year, isn't that excessive?

[MMDad (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

If you believe in the illusion of supply and demand and $150 a barrel oil, could you explain what happened to supply and demand yesterday that caused oil to DROP 6%? Did demand drop 6% yesterday? Did supply expand 6% yesterday? Was it 3% up for supply, 3% down for demand? Care to speculate?

heh. Speculate. Remember what we told you about jokes?

Speculation can definitely cause the day to day fluctuations, but that's no different than saying a 100 degree day proves global warming, or a 75 degree day proves there is no global warming. Look at the long term.

I'll make you a little wager. If oil tops $150 before the end of August, you have to kiss Toppick. If it doesn't, you get to kiss Andy.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by MMDad

...why is 90% of the country whining about prices?

...the other 10% own Exxon and oil futures.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by MMDad

heh. Speculate. Remember what we told you about jokes?

Speculation can definitely cause the day to day fluctuations, but that's no different than saying a 100 degree day proves global warming, or a 75 degree day proves there is no global warming. Look at the long term.

I'll make you a little wager. If oil tops $150 before the end of August, you have to kiss Toppick. If it doesn't, you get to kiss Andy.

...I'm not really feeling the motivation to make that bet. What will you kiss WHEN it goes over?

[This_person]

Originally Posted by MMDad

The wind component makes a lot of sense in certain areas. It is relatively reliable and efficient in places that have consistent winds. It is not a land waste in places like Texas where you can put them on otherwise unused land. Farmland can also be used. Mountain passes in California have been used for decades because they natural funnel and intensify even light winds.

The only problem is the initial infrastructure expense, and the time it takes to recoup that expense. It hasn't made fiscal sense in the past, but as oil prices rise, it is becoming more feasible.

It does make sense in some areas, but not at the level his plan was projecting. It's a cafe product in a mega-mall demand. At best, a home brewery in Ireland, if you catch my drift

[This_person]

Originally Posted by MMDad

If we're willing to pay the price, why is 90% of the country whining about prices? Why are SUV sales plummeting? "Excessive" use got us these high prices. If you don't think prices are too high, then in your opinion we don't have excessive use. I disagree.

If you are able to earn (produce) $30,000 per year, but spend (use) $100,000 per year, isn't that excessive?

People complain because they can.

Perhaps some people were living beyond their means, and that would be "excessive", and why sales of certain products are dropping (houses, expensive cars, etc.).

I don't think we don't have excessive use because I can afford the gas; I think we don't have excessive use because we don't have excessive use. Excessive must have some other criteria than "we use 10 times more than Ethiopians" or something like that.

Your last paragraph actually explained my point best - our use is not excessive because we (can) produce more with that oil - be it product, or "lifestyle"/quality of life, or whatever you want to claim it to be - than other countries do. It's not 30 in, 100 out, unless you're looking at just the oil domestic vs. use. For, if we are only able to use domestic product, we're in a hurt locker of "excessive use" in a lot of places, as is most every country in the world.