DHS can take your laptop for "reasonable" time...

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by AndyMarquisLIVE

... if you're traveling across the border.





Laptops may be detained at border - Washington Post - MSNBC.com

So they can take my laptop for no reason, detain it for months, and go through all my personal and medical information for no reason in the name of National Security.

Great policy.

GO BUSH!

Well his policies have kept us ALL safe, Bush haters included, since 9/11 so

THAT being said, aren't you leaving some VERY pertinent information from your story??

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

I would have to add if you ARE a US Citizen and have been travelling to places like Palestine, the Sudan, Iran.. I would expect them to crawl up your ass with a microscope.. seizing of a laptop should be the least of your concerns

[annoyance]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Well his policies have kept us ALL safe, Bush haters included, since 9/11 so

THAT being said, aren't you leaving some VERY pertinent information from your story??

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

I would have to add if you ARE a US Citizen and have been travelling to places like Palestine, the Sudan, Iran.. I would expect them to crawl up your ass with a microscope.. seizing of a laptop should be the least of your concerns

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.


Regarding the 9-11 policies you adore - look up the term specious reasoning. Or watch the Simpsons.

[RadioPatrol]

for foreigners Richard Head

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by annoyance

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.


[/url]

You mean like Mexicans, and South Americans??

[annoyance]

Originally Posted by RadioPatrol

for foreigners Richard Head

Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.

[annoyance]

Originally Posted by itsbob

You mean like Mexicans, and South Americans??

IIRC, there weren't any footnoted exceptions.

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by annoyance

Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.

Do the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence apply to anyone except Americans?

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Doesn't this apply to FOREIGN travellers and NOT US citizens? So in reality they can't take YOUR laptop, but they can take a Paklistani's laptop, or an Iranian's, or an Iraqui's..

If I'm wrong, please show me where I am wrong, but this is the way I understand it.

No problem.

From the link I originally provided:

DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

Any more questions?

[RadioPatrol]

Originally Posted by annoyance

Heaven forbid we treat anyone with a different passport or country of birth with the same respect we believe ourselves entitled to.

The holding: International travelers arriving from overseas are subject to border rules. And those rules are very, very favorable to the government. There is no reasonable suspicion needed for searches of “closed containers,” such as luggage and briefcases (US v Tsai, 282 F.3d 690 [9th Cir. 2002]); purses, wallets or pockets (Henderson v US, 390 F.2d 805[9th Cir. 1979]); and pictures, films and videos (US v 37 Photographs, 402 US 363; 12,200-Ft. Reels of Super 8mm Film, 413 US 123).

Under that standard, it sure seems like laptops are containers. There are some limits, of course. The feds do need reasonable suspicion to search one’s “alimentary canal” for reasons of “human dignity and privacy” (US v Montoyta de Hernandez, 473 US 531). In addition, there may be some property searches that are so destructive that they require particularized suspicion.

talkback from zdnet article about 9th circuit decison up holding the rules:

2.2.4. Each of us are equally up on the law as they are.

The 4th Amendment is actually quite clear. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

A computer is part of a person's "papers and effects". As such, any search beyond scanning for explosives, concealed weapons, chemical or biological contaigens is unreasonable, and therefore in and of itself, without probable cause. If the person had a hard copy of a child porn picture on him, or had been under suspicion or investigation previously, then they would have probable cause for a greater search. And ONLY after a warrant had been served.

the court decision was based on the legal definition, that the "Laptop" is a container ... and the law has up healed the right of Customs to search containers ....

but I agree with the poster ... a laptop, thumb drive, CD's, should be considered "Effects" not "Containers"


I don't know what they are expecting to catch, except casual criminals .... like the guy coming back from the Philippians with Kiddie Porn ... maybe a really dumb low level Al Q Operative ... I am sure word is already getting out about this ...


All this said, the Gobberment should not be treating US Citizens like this, but any foreigner wanting to come over ... Fingerprint them, Photograph them, DNA sample .... where are you going, who are you staying with .... and for petes sake if there no record of them leaving after a Visa Expires ... start an investigation into where they went ........

especially if they are coming in from some unfriendly ME or Asian Country ... yep, thats right Profile them .........

18. Some implications...

wizard_of_oz - 04/24/08

If the feds need no suspicion to perform searches and confiscate data, there are a few disturbing implications.

First, unbridled discretion means nothing is stopping the government from targeting individuals or members of groups the government (or someone in the government) dislikes. Republican in office? Staffers for Democratic candidates get full searches and copies of their election plans go to their Republican adversaries. Work for a lobbyist that espouses ideas (like sunshine laws) that someone high up in DHS doesn't like? You get the full treatment. Your employer didn't contribute enough to certain election campaigns? Well, you qualify too, and your laptop contents just might go to your competitor that donated more. A customs inspector thinks women should be home, barefoot and pregnant? Women without husbands and children in tow get searched just in case the inspector finds something embarrassing or socially damaging.

Second, otherwise legitimate organizations likely to be targeted by such corrupt (but now perfectly legal) behavior will start smuggling proprietary data just like other things get smuggled over the border. The criminal organizations have been doing it for some time. At the very least, really important stuff will be encrypted, hidden off any obvious-looking devices. How long will it be before specialized couriers spring up to transport proprietary data? Does anybody remember the short story "Johnny Mnemonic" by William Gibson or the movie it inspired?

Other things follow from these, but I think you get the idea. The purpose of the constitution our forefathers wrote is to prevent abuse at the hands of our government. And sadly, it seems, it has failed in that purpose.

[forestal]

Yes, only terrorists will need to worry about their laptops being taken away....

because the guvMint doesn't need any reasonable suspicion to hijack your computer, they rely on good luck and the belief that god will help them pick the right computers to sequestor.