If I hear the "stress" argument one more time..

[libertytyranny]

Originally Posted by tom88

I don't know where your information about PTSD is derived but doctors in the field are saying that counselors and others who are continuously subjected to descriptions of traumatic incidents may develop stress related illnesses themselves.

I am not saying that this shooter had PTSD or should be looked at as a victim at all, but your information as to PTSD requiring a person to actually experience the trauma seems to be contradicted by experts in the field.

I got my information from studying psychology for the last four years, and working in inpatient mental units for 5 or 6. And your information is wrong. I will help you. Psychology diagnosis are made using something called the DSM..the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It is revised..and currently in its fourth revision. This contains the criteria for a diagnosis of of all mental disorders..including PTSD. Here is an excerpt from the DSM page on PTSD. It can be found at DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD - National Center for PTSD the national center for PTSD.

DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD

Providers and Researchers
In 2000, the American Psychiatric Association revised the PTSD diagnostic criteria in the fourth edition of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR). The diagnostic criteria (Criterion A-F) are specified below.

Diagnostic criteria for PTSD include a history of exposure to a traumatic event meeting two criteria and symptoms from each of three symptom clusters: intrusive recollections, avoidant/numbing symptoms, and hyper-arousal symptoms. A fifth criterion concerns duration of symptoms and a sixth assesses functioning.

Criterion A: stressor
The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following have been present:

1. The person has experienced, witnessed, or been confronted with an event or events that involve actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of oneself or others.
2. The person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror. Note: in children, it may be expressed instead by disorganized or agitated behavior.

Criterion B: intrusive recollection
The traumatic event is persistently re-experienced in at least one of the following ways:

1. Recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions. Note: in young children, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the trauma are expressed.

2. Recurrent distressing dreams of the event. Note: in children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content

3. Acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those that occur upon awakening or when intoxicated). Note: in children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur.

4. Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.

5. Physiologic reactivity upon exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event

Criterion C: avoidant/numbing
Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by at least three of the following:

1. Efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma

2. Efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma

3. Inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma

4. Markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities

5. Feeling of detachment or estrangement from others

6. Restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings)

7. Sense of foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a normal life span)

Criterion D: hyper-arousal
Persistent symptoms of increasing arousal (not present before the trauma), indicated by at least two of the following:

1. Difficulty falling or staying asleep

2. Irritability or outbursts of anger

3. Difficulty concentrating

4. Hyper-vigilance

5. Exaggerated startle response

Criterion E: duration
Duration of the disturbance (symptoms in B, C, and D) is more than one month.

Criterion F: functional significance
The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Specify if:
Acute: if duration of symptoms is less than three months

Chronic: if duration of symptoms is three months or more

Specify if:
With or Without delay onset: Onset of symptoms at least six months after the stressor

References
American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders DSM-IV-TR ( Fourth ed.). Washington D.C.: American Psychiatric Association.









Please foward to these "experts" in the field.

[hvp05 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

It would be great if Americans would get angry and invade the media rooms, kill their leaders and convert them to conservativism.

Don't you mean independentism (or whatever you want to call it)?

Besides, if that actually were to happen then the whole media (Fox, et al) would be the right wing's mouthpiece, and you wouldn't want to give the Lefties that kind of target, would you?

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by hvp05

Don't you mean independentism (or whatever you want to call it)?

Besides, if that actually were to happen then the whole media (Fox, et al) would be the right wing's mouthpiece, and you wouldn't want to give the Lefties that kind of target, would you?

I am a conservative. Which is why I'm not longer a Republican.

And I couldn't care less about the Lefties and their shrieking. I hope they all DIAF.

[ImnoMensa]

I dont know dick about psychiatry, and probably even spelled it wrong.

I do recognise a crazy Muslim POS killer when he has killed 13 people, and I feel nothing but loathing for this sonofab!tch and his dumb religion of heathen acts towards the rest of the world and even each other, when they cant find anyone else to kill.

When your religion is based on a belief in a guy who had sex with a 9 year old child, you arent packing a full sea bag. Period, end of sentence

[Baja28]

Originally Posted by tom88

I don't know why this guy killed these people. I figure at some point the investigators, Army CID or FBI will come to a conclusion as to why he did it, and that will be based on factual information.

I don't know or care about this persons situation, but I do know that many counselors get help themselves as you suggested about this guy going to his CO. I don't care about this guy, I hope he rots in hell.

Are you serious?? Have you watched the news at all?? He was screaming "ALLAH AKBAR" (god is great) as he was pulling the trigger. Now do you know?

[AK-74me]

Originally Posted by ImnoMensa

I dont know dick about psychiatry, and probably even spelled it wrong.

I do recognise a crazy Muslim POS killer when he has killed 13 people, and I feel nothing but loathing for this sonofab!tch and his dumb religion of heathen acts towards the rest of the world and even each other, when they cant find anyone else to kill.

When your religion is based on a belief in a guy who had sex with a 9 year old child, you arent packing a full sea bag. Period, end of sentence

Hey I have a BA in Psychology and I feel the same way for what it is worth.

All the sugar coating the media is putting on this is typical, anyone especially a muslim that starts making the kind of threats this guy did needs to be thrown in a hole the rest of their life or they will kill large groups of people. America, pussified PC to the max.

[twinoaks207 (Premo)]

Excellent original post Libertytyranny. You are definitely NOT the only one who feels that way.

In my opinion, it is indicative of the general malaise currently destroying our country -- the failure to take and accept personal responsibility. It seems as though we now look for any reason at all to excuse poor behavior.

Just because people experience stress or a traumatic event and even fit the diagnostic criteria for PTSD does not excuse the acts of taking people's lives -- multiple times. (The morning news just reported that the shooter in Orlando told police that he "had been going through a bad time recently and he was sorry".) People ultimately CHOOSE how to respond to life events. Some make good choices and some make bad choices. People who make bad choices should experience the consequences for making that bad choice -- how otherwise, do they learn that it was a bad choice and they should never do that again. When we tolerate and excuse bad choices, we only make it easier for the next person coming along to make that same bad choice as there is no incentive not to do so.

I spent many years working with physically and mentally abused children in a mental facility and what I read and heard from them about events in their lives would curl all of your hair. I experienced a traumatic event and reading over the PTSD diagnostic criteria, probably could have fit into that some years ago. Compassionate PTSD, my azz! I haven't gone off the deep end and shot up a place full of people while yelling the equivalent of "God is Great".

We need to stop looking for excuses for every piddly-azz thing and stop "spinning" things to make them more politically palatable. Until we, as a nation, refuse to tolerate it, it will continue and we will continue to experience these kinds of events.

(okay, ranting is contagious!)

[MMDad (Premo)]

I could understand if his stress was from working with the mangled troops, seeing their pain, agony, and anguish, and being terrified about ending up like them. But that does not appear to be the case at all.

He supposedly didn't want to kill his fellow Muslims. That is something he was more likely to do by selecting random targets last week than in Iraq as a REMF.

He was also supposedly picked on. I could sort of understand that excuse if he were a child and had no understanding of coping, but he was a shrink who has the knowledge. If he had gone after his tormenters that might make more sense.

My ancestors were run out of their homes under threat of death, and some were imprisoned for their religious beliefs. Yet they did not turn around and kill those who tormented them. Why? Because their religion told them not to. It actually was a "religion of peace," unlike Islam.

[tom88]

[quote=libertytyranny;4046098]I got my information from studying psychology for the last four years, and working in inpatient mental units for 5 or 6. And your information is wrong. I will help you. Psychology diagnosis are made using something called the DSM..the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It is revised..and currently in its fourth revision. This contains the criteria for a diagnosis of of all mental disorders..including PTSD. Here is an excerpt from the DSM page on PTSD. It can be found at DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD - National Center for PTSD the national center for PTSD.

[b]DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD

Thank you for that information on PTSD. Let me give you my quote again, and go over what I said. Evidently, you concentrated way too much on the psychology, but not enough on comprehension.

Originally Posted by tom88
I don't know where your information about PTSD is derived but doctors in the field are saying that counselors and others who are continuously subjected to descriptions of traumatic incidents may develop stress related illnesses themselves.
I didn't say that these doctors or counselors were developing PTSD, but that they were developing stress related illnesses connected to their treatment of people with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
I am not saying that this shooter had PTSD or should be looked at as a victim at all, but your information as to PTSD requiring a person to actually experience the trauma seems to be contradicted by experts in the field.

For this last bold, I would direct you to the information you quoted in the SM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD. The person could witness a traumatic event and still develop PTSD.

Now I am sure that you will look for some way to twist this around, or insult me, as this seems to be your modus operandi. I will choose not to debate you any longer, as I doubt your credentials but there is no way for me to prove this.

[tom88]

Originally Posted by Baja28

Are you serious?? Have you watched the news at all?? He was screaming "ALLAH AKBAR" (god is great) as he was pulling the trigger. Now do you know?

Perhaps you could provide more information about this. When I looked for some, the only thing I found was a person who wished to remain anonymous had told a third party who had reported it to a local news media outlet.

This is why I said I would wait for the investigators to inform me as to what the motive was for the shooting, rather than listen to third party anonymous sources to provide me with factual information.

I hope this is not how you operate your life or daily business.